Unlike some recent high profile departures from the vue gallery and forum(including a coordinator), I just took part less and less without an official declaration I’m leaving.
I havnt posted partly because I havnt been creating any CG images, but mainly because I am so disillusioned and discouraged by the attitude of Rendo's officials in their application of rules and in their interaction with it’s members.  I figured it’s time I post a thread expressing my concerns. As nothing about them is of a personal nature, they may be of interest to the community in general.

1. Nudity rules. I know much has been said about it  already. Perhaps the frequency the issue keeps coming up again and again should give the official a clue they havnt reached a satisfactory resolution?
    

So, is nudity automatically imply the image isi ‘dirty’  or obscene? I refute this vehemently. For sure some images with 'clothed' are more pornographic then the nude ones.
It isnt how much clothing there is but how respectful it is to the characters and what they represent. Unfortunately this might  be an impossible criterion to  enforce. So It is more practical to try implement a ‘mechanical’ definition.
I understood that rendo's  practical definition was ‘no visible nipples or genitals’. It doesnt seem to work. Just some examples to demonstrate my point:
I had an image where none of  these areas were visible as they were behind other body parts.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1991601
I was asked to flag it for nudity. I’m not confirming or denying she was nude, but from what the moderator can see, there is no infringement  of the rule. She might be wearing ‘stick on’  clothing items on the body parts in question. There is no evidence otherwise, so doesnt 'presumed innocent' apply? And why does it matter if the relevant body parts are obscured by a piece of cloth or another object or  another body part?

It isnt consistent with the rule and its practical application. The rule is being bent by the moderator perhaps to fit his personal view of what’s morally correct.

On the other hand I posted the image
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2030012
Both characters appear to be nude. I wasnt asked for a flag or special thumbnail. Is it because it is in a traditional painting rather than CG? would it be disallowed if it was more realistic (in terms of her nipples area)? would it be allowed if it was in the cubist genre of paintings and her nipples were squares? Where is the limit?

Similar problems have arisen recently about nudity and alien creatures. Where is the limit between a human and an animal? What are sexual organs of an imaginary creature?

it is  impossible to apply the rule consistently in any of these cases. The rules would have to be bent by the specific moderators. Their decision may make sense to themselves but it is objectively arbitrary.

However, this problem of interpretation, although  important, is just the tip of the iceberg. I (as many before me) am questioning the justification of having the rule at all.
I dont see why the puritanical nature of some members should infringe on the freedom of all others. I dont see why some people have the right to determine what is moral in this respect and enforce their opinion on me.
I often see moderators comment “ Please dont think we imply your image is offensive, it’s   just a rule, you understand’ - They are not being honest. They  ARE declaring it offensive/immoral.  Are they saying if they are asked  to censor anything with red in it just because some dont like it aesthetically  they  would? I doubt it. Rendo applies censorship because some people see it as immoral, at least be honest about it. Well, I object to my images being branded immoral. I try to depict the beauty of human beings and express respect and appreciation.  If some people dont want to see nature/god’s creation  in all its glory it should be their problem, not mine.
I do have a solution which would put the onerous of action on them.  Let me flag my gallery  as a whole as ‘not for the puritans’ . Let them flag themselves as ‘puritan’.  All images  or at least all thumbnails of images by artists defining their gallery as not for puritans will be blocked/masked for all puritan members. People who see nudity automatically as obscene are not welcome in my gallery as a whole I shouldnt need to  flag specific images.
(By the way having images blocked from overly sensitive people is not a new idea it exists, for example on redbubble.com, so it is perfectly feasible to implement).

To be frank, based on previous experience  the answer I expect for this suggestion- the principle and the practical- is ‘ This is not the way WE do it. We chose to do it our way. It is our site and we can do as we like.”
Not only is this an arbitrary and dictatorial attitude, it isnt completely true either.
For example even in private clubs racial discrimination isnt allowed. So not everything is OK to do just because someone owns a site. It has to be just and has to be seen to be just.

2.Promoting commercial products in Rendo forums.
This issue by itself doesnt bother me as much on a personal level as the nudity issue. It's nature is more of a nuisance. But the official responses I got about my concerns are of importance, and are yet another example of their 'flexi-rules' and inconsistent approach.
According to Rendo's rule posting an advertisement to promote a commercial product is not allowed (unless it's a marketplace product, and then it is only allowed in the marketplace forum). I pointed out to the officials  several times about specific advertisement threads. I also suggested a clarifying stickie for the vue forum (as there is for the Poser forum). Some advertisements have been removed but no stickie in spite of several requests. I find this puzzling as it seems like another rule which cannot be applied rigorously or consistently.
My criteria would be that if a thread contains helpful information to members who do not buy the product it is OK to post it. For example -eonite's cloud thread is a clear advertisement for his c3d products. However this thread included many demos and freebees and was overall illuminating even to those who did not buy the product. There is a place for such a thread.
Chipp Walters posted a thread about his new book. Clear advertisement. No bonus to anyone but those that buy the book. Let me be as clear as I can -I am NOT claiming his product isnt good. I have reason to believe many will find the book very helpful particularly with its unique presentation. It is still just an advertisement. It is still an infringement of the rule. It took the moderators 2 weeks(!) to come back to me. I wish I could quote precisely, as it is hard to believe otherwise(quoting an official rply is apparently against TOS, another unjustifiable rule).The content of the reply is that Chippwalters did indeed infringe the rules on the posting of commercial items in the Forum, his product is seen as something of a boon to Vue-ers in that it can be seen as an instruction manual.
So it stays because the officials think it's a useful book? How does usefulness or quality come into it? If it isnt of use to users without buying the book, it is a plain advertisement. Current rule says it isnt allowed.
The rule is generally unenforceable. Not only can a vendor ask a buddy to post the thread for him (not considered an advert). Not only can the buddy just post a question 'does anyone know of a new book about vue and the vendor will reply (not an advert). Not only can the vendor preface his advert with 'I'm not advertising my product as this isnt allowed but you can guess I may have one'. (currently in a vue  thread). But it could just be overruled by the moderator because he likes the product for one reason or another.

They should make up their mind – enforce the rule as it is, or cancel it. Arbitrary application is disrespectful to those who obey the rule (and those who have been made to remove their thread) and to the general public who doesnt get the benefits of the rule nor of  its removal.

3.Suggestion from members:
It seemed like a good idea having rendo listen to member's suggestion. It would imply  Rendo cares about its members. Not in my experience. It is just a facade for them letting members talk but doing what they want.
Some examples – a few years ago I suggested that it should be possible to assign more than one gallery or genre to an image. I was told this is impossible computationally. Which is of course ridiculous – not only is there nothing to suggest it cant be done in principle, but most similar sites  already do it (dA, zazzle, rebubble). Recently, someone else brought up the same idea in the suggestion box. This time the reaction was 'good idea, we'll add this to our list'. An idea that was rejected off hand is suddenly a good idea... As it still isnt implemented, I figure both replies are just a way to shut up the members. Nobody takes any notice of anything raised in th esuggestion box or otherwise. They just go on with their own agenda. Rutra tried to offer the idea of a system keeping track  what happens to member's suggestion
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2804031.
This was dismissed off hand as 'too hard'. I asked for examples of member suggestions that have been taken on board and implemented. They would not or could not provide those. Yet they keep saying they 'add things to the list'. If there is a list, couldnt they make it public and provide updates?
Indicates to me that the 'suggestion box' is just lip service. No one is listening but they dont have the intrinsic honesty to admit it.

Well, I had some other examples of why rendo's policies and arbitrary reactions discourage and depress me, but this is getting too long anyhow. If I havnt made my point by now, I probably never will.
I predict the powers that be will still invoke their primary directive “we do what we want when we want it. You dont like it you can leave” , so this may well be my swan song for rendo.  Shame, seemed like a nice place with nice people (members primarily).

Prove me wrong Rendo officials, address thses issues with honest intent to solve the problem, not by looking for the quickest way to shut up me and other disappointed mebers.

Bureacracies suck, it's inevitable, that's the issue here and everywhere ;)
it's always a fight between folk's common sense, and the *"group dumbing down, mind of brain slurry that leads to Karka -esque stupidity"

I'm not getting at admins, it's way our ENTIRE species has issues with such.
Any overseer of any form, and leadership whatever, always has problems with this
see the infamous experiment of studen  sin a psychology test being guards and prisoners, and thus Abu Ghraib,
few folk have the ability to tell the "group" they are in to get stuffed if they do bad / wrong things.
And many folk support the group NO MATTER what the hell the group does, because of our psychology.
Hence you have folk dying heroically because they fear losing their friend's respect more than death (as a good side of this), or dying with Hitler rather than shooting the crazy SOB (bad side)

As Stephen King wonderfully said, roughly paraphrased:
"God may have made Man in His image, but Human society is made in the image of God's alter ego and is trying it's damndest to get back home!" :lol:

Naom Chomski is right, respectful, concerned anarchy is the only solution, which sounds a paradox, but isn't, but is probably impossible given Human weaknesses

On censorship
I saw folk posting over on C3D of jsut say, a fighter aircraft in flight, not shooting or anything, and they'd put "violence" labels on it, and argue such were indeed violent.
this utterly baffles me. an object CANNOT be violent  it's inanimate! Violence is most definatley "animate"
now if the plane was connected with other items to show violence is or has occured it's another matter.

Eroticism can be artistic, pornography rarely is and that's the difference, but it isn't one you easily pin down.

folk can have very peculiar views on things compared to our OWN views shrug such is life :)

Why do some people type out a manifesto rather than simply clicking a nudity flag?  It's not like any of these images are masterpieces.

 Just an FYI, I responded to the thread you posted in the Community Center.  You've probably read it by now, so...

Shawn, I think you completely missed the point - and your comment about images is probably part of the problem that ArtPearl is pointing out. The lack of respect that is taking place here more and more, from other users and - more important - from the site officials. The nudity issue is just an illustration to have an example - a vehicle.

Where is an example beyond easily said words on this site about officials showing that they DO care about their users? The expression "service" seems to be written in very little characters (as we say here in Germany).

Let me give you an example. Remember the hilarious "alien porn" issue from a couple of weeks ago? All discussions about it were locked down within I think two days. With the comment, all relevant is said, we close this down now. Result was that we started a Facebook group for Vue users - very nice, still rapidly growing and way beyond this issue now - and started a discussion about Renderosity and their policy there. Bravely enough, two Renderosity officials jumped in and participated in this discussion. But were unable to close the discussion obviously. After a long and always nice and civilized discussion the problem was understood and a partly solution for Renderosity was found. Our alien images were back, UNFLAGGED!

You see, a discussion with users CAN bring up some new points - I wish this discussion was possible at Renderosity. Obviously it was not. I got a little bit of confidence back into SOME Renderosity officials (I have now the one guy as friend at Facebook) but not in Renderosity as is, they didn't saw ANY need to do an official statement, a "sorry that we did that" to us that were hit by this wrong action, simply nothing. So I keep staying away from any forum still - I learn from the officials..

My advice at Renderosity is to talk a bit less about rules, focus on the users and especially focus onto the community, communities, and make them again a positive and lively place they have been a while, some years ago. Common sense is the central key word here, not narrow-minded functionaries.

Dear ArtPearl,

about a better galleries organization, Rendo inaction might not be due to ill will but to simpler reasons: it might be because the galleries web/database software is so well written that fixing it would require an enormous amount of work from Rendo (read lotsa money with no return) and then a frightful database migration.

Signed: a web developer struggling every day with tool light years more professional than PHP (read Java2 EE, Spring and the whole enchilada... and even so having hair ripping problems).

Bye

Renderosity is free for now.  Take it or leave it.  If Renderosity is not good enough for someone's uploads, they should get their own web site and post their gallery there.

I say Renderosity should flag whatever they need flagged.  Some nutjob can claim to the police that they saw some nudity posted here and that's what made them commit a crime of some such.  If the police then check this site and the images aren't flagged, that could be a problem for Renderosity.

The site admins and owners aren't the problem Artpearl, they do an outstanding job for this community, it's one or two of the middle management that have assumed power to railroad their views into discussions; to disagree with them and utter a differing opinion in strong terms is a cardinal sin..
'nuff said..

I still think you miss the point Shawn. And to talk about "police" and "crime" in the context of customers of a shop with added extras like gallery or forums, I am not sure whether this is the right terminology.

Oh and I forgot - when owners allow people to act under their name, then they ARE responsible for it of course.

Hey ArtPearl,

So it was you who made all the fuss.

I'm sorry to have trespassed so grievously on your sensibilities with my three sentence message about the book I've spent a good part of the last year working on. I was hoping the title of the post, "Vue 3D Comic Manaul Now Shipping" would have clued you on not clicking further and thus wasting your valuable time. Please accept my apologies.

My best thinking is you should just do your best to ignore any posts from me from now on.

I hope there are some here who would find value in that post. 

I'm getting very tired of the same old argument about nudity. Let me see if I can simplify this for you.

Renderosity - not me personly or any one staffer - requires that images that contain nudity should be flagged as such. In doing so Renderosity does not imply that any image is pornographic or dirty or obscene. It is intended to alert those who may not wish to see such images. Nor does Renderosity censor art. It has no wish to stifle any member's artistic output or prevent it being shown to the masses.

When it comes to an image that contains nudity as defined by the TOS Renderosity requires that the thumbnail image does not contain any nudity whatsoever.

Renderosity runs this site. Rendeorsity makes the rules and can apply them as it sees fit - generaly by concensus of many members of staff and admins - NOT at the whim any ONE Moderator or Co-ordinator as ArtPearl would have you believe.

And if only half of what has been said were true then Renderosity as a dictatorial and puritanical overlord would have evicted ArtPearl for simply daring to speakout against such oppression.

But I would remind members who have a problem with the rules and the way they are applied, that in the first place every member agreed to abide by the TOS when they became members, and secondly, each and everyone of you has the right to site-mail their complaints or concerns to Administration (Admin@Renderosity.com).

Finaly I would like to remind you that you get this site for free. A little gratitude wouldn't go amiss.

Quote - The site admins and owners aren't the problem Artpearl, they do an outstanding job for this community

I agree.  10 years is not an easy thing to do.  It takes work.

Well, I got to the dead end I expected, the moderators here and in the community forum telling me (one politely and one rudely)
" We'll do what we want. If you dont like it go away"
I presented the facts as I encountered them and the absurd consequences of the rules in many cases(please read my second post in the community thread too). I offered an alternative way of dealing with the flags for nudity. None of these were addressed in  a rational manner.
Well, so be it, I give up.
Just a couple of words to the worthy members who contributed to  this thread:

Silverblade - Your tenacity is commendable. I'm not trying to talk you into leaving. But If you have an opinion about specific issues I raised, why not express them? Do you have less faith than I had that anyone would listen?. Well, I truly hope you enjoy your stay here.

Alex- I suspect you are right, they implemented the interface in a primitive way which isnt easy to fix. I'd respect them if they said that. But the comments I gpg and saw ranged from 'cant be done' to 'very good idea'.  To me this flippant way of responding shows disrespect

Thefixer - There is no way for me to tell which of rendo's owners/employees are responsible to the policies or their application. Any and all of the satff are for me equal - they represent Rendo.
I just see the results and when the results make no sense I express my opinion. You must know I do my best to treat coordinators/moderators with respect and patience.
I try to sort what I can by site mail but that has limited value as the problems I raised here arnt personal, they have implications for the public. It is ridiculous that if I raise a matter in site mail first I cant then quote what was said.
I do not approach them as private people. My thread title doesnt imply they bend the rules for personal reasons. They bend them because there is no objective way to handle them.
Anyhow, I appreciate what you contributed to the forum as coordinator. I may disagree with some of your decisions but you always treated me with fairness and efficiency. Thanks.

Wabe - Thank you so much  for your comments. At least you followed my line of reasoning. That is some comfort. I wish you luck with your unclothed aliens:)

Chipp - My deepest apologies for what you seem to take as a personal attack. I tried to make it very clear I am not implying your product is flawed. I said explicitely I think it is different than any other instruction books I've seen and that I'm sure it will be of use. It was just an example of a rule applied in some cases but not in other. For what it's worth I think removing just the link seems a really strange 'resolution' and makes no sense. If the rules allow you to advertise or inform members about your book, why remove the link? Sorry about that result.
I hope I havnt omitted anyone else who made a valued contribution.
I'm sure there are others who support the opinions I expressed(I got some site mail support too), but seeng how my head gets bitten off for daring to raise alternatives, I'm not surprised they dont post their opinions.
If you intend to express your supportfor my ideas later in the thread, thanks in advance.
If you just agree quietly - thanks for that too.
Bye.

*Thefixer I appreciate what you contributed to the forum as coordinator. I may disagree with some of your decisions but you always treated me with fairness and efficiency. Thanks.

And thank you my friend, I have only ever tried to do my best for everyone in the Vue community, I appreciate your kind words..
That said, they weren't my decisions, they were team decisions, but I know you know the distinction, that was for those that don't..

Everything stems from a basic misunderstanding:

Renderosity is NOT a artists community, it is a e-commerce site with forums for users to discuss products sold here and from "friendly" vendors (like DAZ or E-On) plus galleries which are nothing more than product showcases provided (without compensation for the work) from users.

Artist communities CANNOT, by definition, be vendor connected; they have to be totally indipendent.

If you enter this frame of mind, you will see that everything makes sense.

Well, not everything... e.g. the commercial post thing could be resolved in a very simple way: threads about commercial products should have their name prefixed by [Commercial]. This way one could immediately assess the thread. Simple, isn't it? Rocket science? no, just that uncommon thing called common sense.

Bye... and ArtPearl, before slamming the door, let us know your next address.

P.S.: for the last one to leave: remember to turn off the lights...

One of the neat things about "artists" is that they rarely agree on onything!  

From my point of view, you simply click "nudity" if there is a question of any kind. 

Nudity is indeed offensive to some and they refuse to even look at it.  To others it is a flag to look!!   I have seen posts/art where nudity was marked and  the artist was taken to task  in the commentsfor checking it because there wasn't really any!   Go figure!

ArtPearl: your first image should indeed have been flagged "Nudity"  because it "portrays" such even though it hides what we normally think of as involving nudity!  .  (incidently it is art and I thought pretty well done).

I think you may be flogging the nudity issue with a dead "Naked Maja".

!        

I've had more traffic through social networks to my photograph of the 1950s, nude male, bronze statue Liverpool Resurgent than any other posts on my blog.  Yet no one shared it.  On the other hand my photograph of Sefton Park Palm House got shared and blogged about but got less visits.  Naked grabs eyeballs: even respectable eyeballs.

Sorry Wabe, but I have to disagree on two accounts here. First off, the discussion was NOT always civil and so they did indeed shut one voice down in that discussion because I left it twice due to the treatment I recieved from Renderosity moderators who came to hijack your discussion.  

Second, even though the Sixus 1 Grey Alien and FemaSu were eventually deemed NON-Nude, the image I had pulled because of their accused nudity were NEVER restored to my Gallery here and as such I have not restored any of the rest of my gallery that I pulled from this site. I'm attaching the pulled image here for everyone to see. No, it's no great work of art but that's not the point, it's also had to be compressed more to be uploaded to forum restricted size limits.

Quote - Everything stems from a basic misunderstanding:

Renderosity is NOT a artists community, it is a e-commerce site with forums for users to discuss products sold here and from "friendly" vendors (like DAZ or E-On) plus galleries which are nothing more than product showcases provided (without compensation for the work) from users.

First and foremost, this site's origins were EXACTLY an Artist Community. It has only over time been transformed into an ecommerce site. The more focused it becomes on e-commerce over it's original community, the less appealing it has become for the original  userbase.

Attached Link: The picture where I had to put a pant on.

**I often have the same problem with this nudity item.
Once I had made a picture where the boy was too young
to be nude (see link). I had to make him older or dress him.
LOL! I couldn't refuse to use a certain design.

People under the age of 18 are never nude in reality.
... and babies come to this world clothed because then the stork can
better carry them or they are born in a cabbage patch.

... but my problem is sometimes elsehow or going further.
As I am gay I only use boys and man in my pictures.
... and YES sometimes it would be more realistic to show
their feelings without being pornographic

Well, such is life!

I live in Germany/Europe where we have nudist beaches
and people are not allowed to own weapons apart from for sports
and they have to pass an exam and then show a special permission.
In Germany only criminals own weapon without these permissions.

Well, possibly the problem is the difference in history between our
old-fashioned Europe and ... with our special experiences - especially in Germany -
during our 1000 years Reich (that luckily only lasted 12 years) when a government
consisting of criminals decided what art was and what was "degenerated"!

The word here is of cause not tolerance because this can be easily taken away again.
The word must be a worldwide acceptance of other life styles and opinions.

Many thanks for reading this.

Yours Bernie

P.S. Possibly I better markup all "Content Advisory(ies)" because of my post. ;-)

ArtPearl
if yer still reading
sorry never saw bit you mentioned me, sorry :/

Human organization suck frog b*lls!  :lol:
simple fact of life, alas

too sick lately to be doing much art let alone moaning about this, as it's alas, pointless, folk ALWAYS march down to the "Furher Bunker" and damn themselves even in the face of overwhelming evidence they are wrong
and that, bernieloehn, is NOT an insult or dig at your nation, just simple example of what nearly ALL Humans do ;)
got plenty of examples form my country, too.

The jackboot, the gulag, the auto-da-fe and the gas chamber are easily understood evils, the worst evils though are far less obvious, however. We have the benefit of hindisght to realize those things I mentioned were evil, other things are emerging that are worse because folk can't see them until they get squashed by the oncoming storm.

classic psychological study of "torture at the order of scientist" proved that only about 1:8 people have sufficient morals, mental fortitude and sense of PERSONAL identity, to not go along with the "group"
Very scary stuff. Abu-Ghraib was NOT deviant behaviour, it's TYPICAL behaviour for Humans in those conditions. Seriously, you can go check up on the studies.

also, guns are not ever the problem, guns are pieces if inanimate metal, I am not afraid of guns or tanks or whatever inanimate object. I'm afraid of the person using them.
it's the damn owners who are a problem IF they are stupid/bad. Nazis banned private firearm ownership except for the "elite", remember. So does nearly every tyranny
Germany is itself doing it again without realizing it (all nations do in fact make such errors, it's inevitable)
video games do not make folk commit mass murder, if so, when did Hitler play "Doom"? Did Ghengis Khan play "Civilization", etc? ;)

Hitler was almost certainly suffering from syphillitic mania, a mental illness well known even then, what the problem was, was not his madness, it was the SANE folk who supported him for their own ends.
Industrialists wanted resources from captured lands, the elite of society and industrialists wanted socialism/communism stopped so the could keep treating the poor like dirt, the military wanted it's machismo again, etc
Common Human failings, but spiralled into disaster.

gun control was brought in the UK after the anarchist/communist events in Europe/Russia to prevent revolution, historical fact,NOTHING to do with criminality. later murders were used as excuses by increasingly power-mad governments to prevent any threat to their power. It was no accident such controls came in during unpopular governments with very little democracy in the Cabinet.

Kitchen knives, common tools, hands and feet are by FAR the biggest killing tools of all, here, because most murders occur with whatever is to hand! they are crimes of passion, drugs and madness, not terrorism or assassination

See also the murder of the "Bonus Army" in Washington DC, USA and the Battle of George Square, Scotland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

Washington DC, a forgotten abuse of power

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_George_Square
tanks in Glasgow, most folk don't know that ever happened

meanwhile, 600,000 folk have died on UK roads since then, and 6 MILLION on US roads
you see much done about that? huge TV campaigns every time someone gets run down, crying relatives on TV, hm? 
no, people are sacrificed under the wheels of cars and trucks every damn minute, for MONEY and power and selling the car as a god-like carriage.
then we can talk about cigarettes if you wish, they have killed more folk than World War II did. Corporations hide the dangers deliberately.
people don't mean jack squat, a few lives are "worth the price" to those who rule us. Long as it isn't THEIR lives.
.
Ever read Terry Pratchett? he makes good point about reality being about "head-ology", a humorous way of saying that people see what they WANT to see, most folk simply will not see the "reality" around them as it's too scary for them.

a moralistic Anarchy IS alas the only way to good governance, bizarre as that is, fat chance, our leaders won't allow it, they love power too much.
Re-elect NO ONE. only way to help solve these issues. 1 term only or you get inevitable corruption

and now...back to art ;)

Dear silverblade33,

Many thanks for your answer! I fear you are totally right!

I'll take up: Back to arts!

;-)

Bernie

I still look in occasionally - I havnt been banned yet. 

I'm very disappointed at the dismissive responses by the moderators.
All the issues I raised were perfectly valid and phrased to the best of my ability.
I deserve a considered answer to each one of those.
The fact that the issue of 'nudity' keeps coming back shouldnt trigger an explosion from the forum moderator. It should trigger second thoughts by the authorities that be. (and I had a suggestion which didnt get any response, not even given a rationale why it is dismissed).
The fact that I brought several examples of inappropriate rules and responses, and I explained my points in details, doesnt merit  the label 'arguments too argumentative'. It deserved at least a thought through set of counter arguments.
Well, I'm disappointed but not surprised...

Thanks to all who expressed a supportive opinion. Just a few comments:
osper -
one can not 'just clicked nudity' as it is just as much against the tos to flag an image as nudity when there is no nudity involved. So you still have to know what exactly is nudity, and I obviousely havnt gotten the hang of it.
impish -
the fact that the nudity flag 'invites' more viewers is yet another reason why I dont want to flag my images like that. I dont want those viewers visiting (and they will be disappointed).
lostinspace -
I really like your aliens, they have a slick elegance to them. Of course needing to flag them for nudity buffles me. Have you tried stating that they are sculptures of aliens rather than live ones? nude statues are OK according to the tos. Go figure.
Bernie -
You have my sympathy of course:)
Silverblade
Not sure what your point was - that there are greater attrocities than being forced to use a nudity flag? I agree wholeheartedly. (It isnt even a big issue in my own life). But that doesnt mean we shouldnt protest when wrongs on a smaller scale are being done. I have a feeling that those who do not protest 'small' injustices, will not protest bigger ones eithe - force of habit.
Alex and everyone else-
I'm not slamming any doors, but it will be nearly impossible for me to post anything new in the galleries.  All my images have been uploaded to redbubble.com, and I'll carry on posting there. My user name there is also artpearl.
A link to my gallery is
artpearl.redbubble.com

I also have an account on deviant art but havnt started posting there yet.

PS just for fun, according to your interpretation of the TOS should there have been a nudity flag on my image
"Holiday blues"?
I didnt think so when I posted, but it is a humanoid...there is no evidence he is wearing any clothes...no info if he has genitals and if they are visible...
Just another example why the rule cannot enforced in a sensible way.

 Just a note - 

I know that I have said, at least once, that change takes time.  Repeating the same demands over and over on all parts of the site will not make them come any faster.  Please show some patience as we take almost 10 years of policy actions and rework them to something more community-minded. 

Jeni

Just came across this post - chiming in. And just to be clear - as these types of threads tend to get heated - imagine me with a very calm voice, and at most "shrugging". This isn't a rant - just typing off the top of my feeble head.

There is only 1 thread I can remember where I just went ballistic at someone (the guy was an activist, and oddly for this thread, targeting Rendo's nudity clause as they had an article about DaVinci on the front page, with one of his illustrations that had male nudity as the thumbnail). I realized I went too far and now ACTIVELY try NOT to.

So - your original numbers.

1 - Some parents took their photos into a lab to be printed - they were family photos, and some were "bathy" pictures. Every parent I know has taken them, including myself - giggling as you play with the kids. My parents took out MY bathy pics when I'd bring a date home just to get a laugh themselves, etc.

When the parents came to get them, they were arrested for "child pornography".

I have YET to meet a parent - or PERSON - who was NOT confused, baffled, and/or outraged by the fact that they were arrested. WTF?!?! But laws in the US (where Rendo is located) are twitchy about body parts - we have yet to get over our Puritan roots, it seems.

If "it" doesn't have clothes on, I figure I'll just click the nudity flag. Why not? This doesn't stop me from posting, and it doesn't mean people can't see my images. What it DOES mean is that someone who has a filter (like an account set up for a minor by their parent, etc.) won't see the images (remember that whole Puritan part?). Just clicking the nudity flag doesn't put me out - I honestly have yet to figure out the big deal. It's posted. It's in our galleries. Done. And checking a box doesn't make your image any less from an artistic POV IMO.

I also have so FEW images with nudity it's not a big deal for me - and yes, I fully realize this is why my opinion differs greatly. I usually do environments, still life stuff, etc., most of which don't have a figure, or if they did they'd be out of place being nude. More often than not it doesn't occur to me to "make a nude image". It's not a goal, but if it were, I'd just click it and go on to the next one.

2 - Unless it's SPAM, I don't care. Hell, one of mine's at the bottom of my post. I figure people have to sell their wares somehow, or wanna share a cool tool/brush/app/beer with other possibly like-minded people.

This gets sticky - yeah, I can see that. Where's the line - is there a specific way to define it to enforce it? I doubt it, so some things (which may be more or less subtle about it) are bound to bounce back and forth.

I'm just so laid back about it, though, that I honestly meant that unless it's SPAM I don't care.

3 - I had the exact same thought - especially as I bounce assets between C4D, Mudbox, Poser, and Vue, then Photoshop and possibly After Effects. CGSociety has this, why not Rendo?

Once while frustrated, I made the "multiple app link" comment to my wife who is a programmer. Her FIRST thought was Rendo's history - thousands, if not millions, of images that would need to be re-linked. And if it goes bad, it would go REALLY bad.

Oh yeah... (eyes blink, then a frustrated look on face) Yeah, I guess that would suck to have many of your images, possibly all of them, suddenly go into digital limbo.

I post footage up at pond5 an they have a great system for how the footage was created, categories and genres, etc. so it's listed in every manner you can get out there for people to find. It was also created from the ground up to do this very thing.

IIRC, Rendo started out as a Poser community. When people started posting from different apps, they added that "you could check the app you used" kinda thing. Not BOTH, but which one you used - cuz I imagine at the time we didn't bounce back and forth as much as they tended not to play well together.

Fast forward 10 years and we have Vue xStream which is SUPPOSED to work INSIDE other apps - holy cow! Well, Rendo didn't think about that originally, and retrofitting would be a nightmare.

And yes, I fully agree that simply stating - "Dude... (wide-eyed, head slowly shakes) We can't safely make it work..." would be a fine statement to just make once and for all. You can't please everyone - don't try.

And I've said this before - and I know it gets some people up in arms, so sorry folks - but Rendo is privately owned. They can make whatever rule they want (only images with SHEEP are accepted - must have a sheep SOMEWHERE in the frame or it will be flagged and taken down!), and enforce whatever rules they have however they want. (I'm shrugging right now - see, I told you it's what I do)

You want "anything goes"? Have your own personal site, and use Rendo to bring traffic to it. As long as your images/content isn't illegal in and of itself, post what you got with no flags to be seen. Mine's $27 a month (a Blue-Ray movie), but you can have them MUCH cheaper.

Good luck. Don't leave. Take care-

-Lew
 

Lew, the simple POINT of all this is just this. "NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS what is nudity anymore around here because they won't define it!" You also can't just go clicking the nudity flag willy nilly either or they'll bust you for that too!

I'm not in the habit of posting nudes here so when my aliens image was pulled for nudity it was a complete slap in the face. The fact that to this day it has not been restored to my gallery even after the mods have stated that FemaSu and the Sixus 1 Grey Alien aren't nude is just more salt in the wound. And people wonder why we're upset... Go figure.

Well said, Lew.

My Mother used to always tell me, "Keep the little things little." In my mind, clicking a nudity check box isn't a big deal one way or another-- certainly not enough of a snit to warrant more than a couple sentences of alarm, or concern, or frustration. After all, while it's a free country, this website is private property. They don't want you taking clothes off in their house without flagging it-- which sounds reasonable to me.

Their site, their call.

There are so many battles in life: this one isn't worth the fire-power you're putting into it, mate. If this is the biggest issue you have to face this year, you're incredibly lucky.

I am still surprised, amazed, shocked, whatever that you all discuss the nudity issue only. Seems a strange focusing to me.

When I understood ArtPearl right, and I support her heavily on that, I had the same problems, it is NOT** the nudity flag that is the problem**. It is the random use from Renderosity officials about what has to be flagged and what not that causes the problem that ArtPearl has. And me.
Let me try an analogy. When a police guy stops you you (normally) don't argue with them about the law system in the country you are at all. But you of course can be unhappy about the treatment you get from this police guy. And should be allowed to question and talk about that. Am I wrong on that ArtPearl (or anybody else?)

I more and more get the impression that moderators and administrators on this site act like a police force, not as supporters for the visitors and friends of this site. And yes, some seem to enjoy their little bit of power, others use it with more care and therefore better for the image of this site.

Second, all that ArtPearl did with her post originally - I did the same, others too - is to say that she/we is not happy with the site and therefore inform friends that they can not expect activities here anymore. Ad what the reasons for this decision were.  What is so wrong with that? Why do you all have to jump on that so heavily? 

ArtPEalr
my point is:
people always take things ot extreme
groups prevent common sense because committees or whatever generally end up having an IQ/morality/common sense = (highest individual) / (total number of people in the group) ! :p
and so, groups of people nearly always lurch into complete bloody disaster and only learn after getting their butt's kicked or mayhem has occured, and leaving a whole lot of chaos and harm in their wake.

this applies form tiny parish committees to world spanning Empires
so, yesterday faeries = suddenly became child porn, today aliens = nude, tomorrow = something worse, like we've seen in history.
Hey personally I don't see the Faerie being cute little Tinkerbells, but often capricious or evil gits like the dark elves of Scot's legend, but my artistic tastes are my own, others have theirs' too.

The mods are not BAD but cause the group dynamics causes problems (try sorting out what pronogrpahy exactly IS for instance, and ask 6 folk to come ot an agreement on it!), and the group that rules the region Rendo's servers sit in, could become raving kooks after an election puts in extremist religious views. See the ridiculous hoopla over the Mosque in New York.

yes Rendo has the right to set up it's own rules, but folk have the right and need to tell 'em to get STUFFED if they go too far, and leave. Happy moderation is never easy.
If it comes ot nudity, I'll take redheads, Indian gals and Rubenesque dark ladies of much lusciousness, please! :P
thinks of Agent Smith in the 1st Matrix film complaining about how Humans are never happy hehe

Walther, I am sorry this issue has caused you and ArtPearl so much discomfort, strife and worry. It is obviously of much greater importance and significance in your life than to many others here. While the subject has taken up a lot of your time, and keyboard wear and tear, I hope you can also see why it just might not be of world shaking consequence to others here.

I might guess from reading your comments, it was not the actual rule per se, but the ill behavior used in enforcing it which was most disturbing. Hopefully, you can someday put it behind you and once again we will see your cheerful personality and whitty valuable comments. :-D

Oh Chipp, it is not a significant part of my life. Not at all. I only participate because I feel there are a lot of misunderstandings. Something I indeed do not like.

My cheerful personality and my witty valuable comments can be found elsewhere now, this is all I tried to say.

Blah, blah,blah...again...condensed for clarity.

The growing problem on this site is the arbitrary and unequal application of the rules.

Ok. Well for a start you don't get 'busted' for mis-flaging an image. You get politely informed that you may have made a mistake and we - the staff - will re-flag it for you. If you keep on doing it we ask you what your problem is. Only after repeated mis-flaging, when it is obvious that we are not getting our message across, do you get 'busted'. Mis-flaging is not a TOS violation in itself.

Some members seem to think that by Renderosity insisting that thumbnails contain no nudity it is declaring the such images are 'imoral', 'porn' or 'dirty'. It isn't. As has been said by staff on many occasion - we do this so that viewers who do not wish to see nudity or worse know which images to avoid. It's that simple.

Some issues brought up by members - brought to the attention of staff - need to be discussed by staff and this can take a great deal of time. Not all staff live in the USA. Indeed, almost every image brought up for discussion is considered by several staffers - and not any one Moderator or Co-ordinator. We do NOT do things on a 'whim'.

It is unfortunate that some of you feel that your complaints, suggestions and criticism have been ignored or dealt with in an impolite manner. It is not our intention to be disrespectful to any member whatever the issue. However, you all have the right to forward any issues to Admin if you feel that staff - including myself in this forum - have behaved in a less than professional manner.

Well, I wrote to an admin but never got any answer. "was on holidays" I was told later but even that was not a reason to reply after these holidays. So for me this was no workable way at all.

In my case I was nominated for Artist of the Month without complain and years later, the same images - WITH THE SAME TOS VERSION - were identified as TOS violating. Pretty cool.

@ Bryster

Now that's annoying. :glare:

You want to know why let me know and I'll explain it by PM.

Quote - Ok. Well for a start you don't get 'busted' for mis-flaging an image. You get politely informed that you may have made a mistake and we - the staff - will re-flag it for you. If you keep on doing it we ask you what your problem is. Only after repeated mis-flaging, when it is obvious that we are not getting our message across, do you get 'busted'. Mis-flaging is not a TOS violation in itself.

Sorry but historically the above statements have been proven to be innaccurate. I know for a fact one person was banned for using the nudity flag a few years back. I'd call that "Busted". And nobody has yet to answer why my image hasn't been returned to the gallery after we were flat out told by the moderator, Bruce Clayton, who came to the Vue Galleries on Facebook that FemaSu and Sixus Grey Alien weren't nude! Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Is this thing even on?

First of all, they were put in holding more than 15 days ago, so they've been purged from the system.  However, it was Bruce that was handling that, and those who got their images restored worked with and communicated with Bruce to get them reinstated.  Did you communicate with him regarding that?  He wouldn't have known what images were whos from facebook usernames alone.

*edited for clarity

Quote - First of all, they were put in holding more than 15 days ago, so they've been purged from the system.  However, it was Bruce that was handling that, and those who got their images restored worked with and communicated with Bruce to get them reinstated.  Did you communicate with him regarding that?  He wouldn't have known what images were whos from facebook usernames alone.

*edited for clarity

He knew exactly which image was pulled because we did discuss it and he was the one who came back FINALLY to say that those two aliens weren't nude. So yeah, I DID communicate with him and NO my images weren't restored before being purged. At least NOW I know they've been purged and I can just quit waiting.

*I know for a fact one person was banned for using the nudity flag a few years back.

*Really? Want to tell me who and exactly when. We've moved on from then. 'A few years back' doesn't cut it anymore. So my statement IS accurate.

 The only other thing I can add, LostInSpaceman, is that, well...for future reference, if you're in a situation that others are in, and everyone else's problems seem to be getting resolved, it's probably a good idea to remind the staff member that said they were fixing it.  We're all human, and sometimes overlook things.  
But, yes, for future reference, any image that is put into holding gets purged by the system after 15 days.

@ LostinSpaceman - why don't you just re-upload the image? It's yours, and you can do it any time. And it sounds like the issue has long since been resolved, so what's stopping you? (see - I'm shrugging again - oh, I guess none of you can see that - well, just letting you know it's happening)

And if you want to err on the side of caution as a just in case, check the nudity box.

Like I said before - regardless of how the TOS MIGHT be enforced/implemented, if any of my characters (not animals, so please, no one should even bother with that argument of "well, what about...?" just to have an argument) don't have clothes on - alien or not, human or not - I just check the box. Why not? It's a character without clothes, right (and one of mine is a teeny silhouette - can't even see anything)? Even if it's an alien with no genitalia whatsoever, it's a nekked alien which - by definition - is "nude".

Anyone who has you on their favorite list will still get the image. Anyone checking that gallery (who doesn't have the filter) will still be able to see it.

Just sayin' - re-upload the image. Sounds like you have had full staff support and have been waiting for THEM for quite some time.

@ Wabe - yeah, I get your policeman metaphor. Don't worry - it's not lost on me.

-Lew

And if you want to err on the side of caution as a just in case, check the nudity box.

Can't do that either, if you tick the box and there's no nudity, you'll get slapped for that too..

 Yes, as Gwyn stated, please don't misuse the nudity flag.  

Once we've hammered out a few things, we will most definitely make a site announcement.  Until then, if you are ever in doubt about whether or not any image might violate any part of the TOS, PLEASE contact a staff member, and we will have it pre-viewed for you.  We would rather catch something beforehand and educate you on what needs to be done than to hand out warnings after the fact.

Back to the nudity discussion. Super.

Quote - *I know for a fact one person was banned for using the nudity flag a few years back.

*Really? Want to tell me who and exactly when. We've moved on from then. 'A few years back' doesn't cut it anymore. So my statement IS accurate.

Doesn't cut it with whom? You? Who say's you're the one it needs to be "Cut with" and not the userbase here? Just another sign that some people around here think they're more important than the users who make this site what it is.

Quote -  The only other thing I can add, LostInSpaceman, is that, well...for future reference, if you're in a situation that others are in, and everyone else's problems seem to be getting resolved, it's probably a good idea to remind the staff member that said they were fixing it.  We're all human, and sometimes overlook things.  
But, yes, for future reference, any image that is put into holding gets purged by the system after 15 days.

Well for one thing, He never stated in that thread that he WAS fixing things. He kept saying he wasn't in charge of the 3D galleries...blah blah blah...regardless, I'm no longer motivated to post images here when other sites are much more accomodating and less ludicrous. I never was a huge gallery poster here anyway.

Well, since my name is now being throw  about.....

Once the "naked alien" issue was resolved...any images that were still in holding were restored. The image in question must have been in pending for more than 15 days, because it wasn't there.

There was no malice on my part, nor was I trying to assist one member over another.

No, I didn't say I was "fixing things"...I just offered to help..There was an issue and I offered to act as an intermediary.

If you felt slighted, why not just contact me? 

To be honest, I thought this had come to a decent ending. I'm sorry that your image may have been lost, but I can tell you honestly, I went thru all of the images that were in the "pending" section. I know I didn't miss any. The only possible answer is that it was there for more than 15 days.

The naked Alien issue is over..It's been resolved.. I've offered an apology. I'm just not sure what else your looking for.

And with that I'm calling time on this one. This continuous argument has gone on long enough. The urban legends, the half truths and acrimony about the recent past is just making enemies and sucking moral out of this forum. It has to stop.

If you have a problem with anything that's been said on this thread then mail admin :admin@renderosity.com or sitemail a staffer.

You've all had a fair crack at this so I'm locking this thread.