You do realize that no one is going to answer your simple question as to if Poser will support some ones else figure, don't you?  IF they were to say Yes and it did not happen due some unforeseen issue then they will be seen as breaking their word. 

IF they were to get the mesh into Poser and the morphs but not the other things such as autofit (or what every the term is for making cloths not poke thru) would that be good enough?  Or do they need to get every single function that is in Studio (the program and not the figure mesh) working?

I know what I like about Poser and one of those is that fact the interface is consistent and they add new ways of doing things while keeping the old which allows me to slowly get use to the new. 

So after nearly 4 years of not having native support for Genesis why now are you deciding to not use Poser? 

It is pointless to ask SM to support Genesis. All the parts of a Poser figure are simply the elements that make up its "document" system, just like any other type of software. If DAZ wants to make a figure that's equally compatible with DS and Poser, they can do it. It is not reasonable to tell a company to support a lot of new file types that are introduced solely to drive business to their competitor.

I don't like being pulled between two companies either - it is very frustrating. The figures I do create, I make sure they work on both. We test all our "Poser" products now in DS, and all our Toon People characters work in both. They don't use a lot of fancy new features, except when its negligible to support them and doesn't hurt compatibility. What I will say is this - the team at SM (and previous owners) has always asked for a very reasonable % of my sales when selling through them, and haven't made me jump through a lot of hoops. As a content creator, I get the same respect Id expect if I were selling a software title through them. Im not dissing the other side; Im just saying when compared with what I have experienced outside of our little niche market, its been good. And I tend to turn in the direction where I don't feel manhandled.

As far as Genesis 3's timing, this is the week before the end of a financial quarter, and a new figure gives  DAZ' sales a nice little boost for the next earnings calculation....

DAZ is privately held, they don't need to perform tricks with their financials.

I think is Daz3d who have to offering native compatibility for Genesis 3, it is the figure creator, it is absurd to ask SM to add compatibility to a 3rd party figure that even their creators (Daz3d) doesn't do. Poser has its own WM system, just ask Daz3d to make a new figure for that system.

It is like I ask Daz3d to add compatibility to the Poser WM system inside Daz Studio.

I know that many people want to use G3 in Poser, but you are getting the wrong way asking SM for compatibility, ask it to Daz3d.

Yeah.... Great news btw! I have developed a new unique Portable Music Player (PMP) it only plays new "Razor" format type music. It's clearly Apple's/Sony's/Spotify's job to make their content work with my device. I'm not going to make my Portable Music Player support Industry standard file format types, then I would need to rely on the established 3rd parties for content. That would just be nuts. After all I'm selling a music player and not music. My customers will just need to accept that the content from the majority music suppliers is not going to work with my device, simple as that. People will just have to start making new music to work with my device, not that I will be supporting them with that though. Hell, I will even throw in some albums from my band as a sweetener, just so they have something to get them started.

I'm expecting a phone call any day now from the big guys to add support for my Razor PMP device. My secretary Beryl is at full alert standing by pen in hand, it's a sure thing! Though I have been thinking I could possibly just open my own online music store instead, everyone knows platform is more important than content anyways. It's going to cost a bit to develop my Razor player for computers so I will just charge $250 for it or $500 for the pro version, of course it will only work with my Razor PMP and Razor format music, but that's the strength of it.

This business plan cannot fail, pls contact me if you want to invest in a winner!

PS This is not a real business opportunity, but perhaps you can see the irony in the suggestion or not... ;)

I'm thinking "Outmoded" may be a good name for my band. What do you think? ;)

First of all, I never told SM that it needs to do anything. I just asked if it was planning to do it, a simple yes or no question. Surely at this state of development, support for genesis 3 can't be a last minute afterthought, so it's either happening or not.

Second, I was very pleased, believe it or not, with DSON. I got used to posing and dressing my figures in DS and compiling and rendering in poser. So autofit and whatnot, I couldn't care less.

Show me a figure that had even a fraction of the success Daz figures have. Like I said before, I'm not a modeler and I can't use a model with minimal clothing and textures. If SM wants to be competitive then by all means, develop a figure and then support it. Don't give us something that dies in a few months.

I go at the marketplace and I keep seeing more and more products for Genesis and less for V4. I do love V4 but it's been around for too many years, it's become a little boring and predictable. How many more years do you believe you can get out of her. Don't forget V4 is a Daz figure too, it got the initial push from it with thousands of content.

If SM wants me to open my wallet then I have to be convinced that the upgrade is worth it. Right now the sirens from the dark side are very tempting and I don't think I am the only one being tempted. Just give us a crumb to keep us hanging, that's all I'm saying. And no, the new activation method is not the one and only feature we always dreamed about when we listed our new feature wishes.

As for the records analogy, If the record company that made the new format was a company that made great records that thousands of people bought, then I suppose sony and apple would make even a small effort to support the new format and not stay in a format that no records were made for.

@Seeker
It's not what you want to hear, but it would be a bad idea to support Genesis, they'd be helping the competition destroy themselves.  What they need to do is make sure they have their own thing so that Genesis loses it;s appeal.  In a thread a year or so back, I predicted that DAZ would pull what they just pulled with Genesis 3.  And what SM (and places like Renderosity) need to be concerned with, is my prediction of moves to follow - which is this:

My prediction (and it is stronger now than it has ever been), is that DAZ might be working towards a locked-in content system.  I think the content manager and all that crap is basically the foundation of such a system.  All DAZ have to do in the future is release a new version of DAZ Studio that cannot load externally purchased content, only content on your DAZ account that was purchased from DAZ.  They have the perfect recipe for it now.  A figure that everyone is drooling over, and program that cannot be changed, which can be yours for free.  If DAZ decided to implement such a thing, that would be the end of stores such as this one, cause just as Apple make sure that all apps are purchased from them, DAZ could design a system where all content must be purchased form DAZ.  Assuming there's someone at SM with the sense to see these things, you won't be seeing Genesis support in Poser.  If Genesis support comes to Poser is simply means that someone over there who is not worthy, is getting paid far too much money for nothing.  I have the perfect, easily implemented solution to this, but without pay, they'll never find out what it is.

Have fun, but above all ...
THINK!

Sorry my analogy while quite a bit silly may have been a little bit too abstract and convoluted, I think you may have misread me.

Is it the job of Apple to produce Vinyl Wax Records that work with older record players or CD players? OR should the manufacturer and the user of the older players update their device to work with newer more prominent content types? Especially when Apple is doing so well.

Its pretty obvious what happens in the real world. No one is still banging out turntables and insisting that Apple makes vinyl content to work on their devices. But mp3, Spotify subscriptions are selling like hot cakes and in turn devices that support them. Record players have become niched, at the moment Poser is the record player. It either needs content or it needs to be developed to work with new content to survive in the mass market. Trust me Apple or not going to go into producing Vinyl on a large scale to keep people who are not staying up to date happy. I also don't see that DAZ3D would be inclined to do similar.

DAZ is privately held, they don't need to perform tricks with their financials.

That isn't true.,  DAZ is owned by a venture capital company, NTT Docomo Capital, which is certainly concerned with their performance.... http://www.docomo-capital.com/

...as they are part of NTT Docomo, Inc....

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=dcm&fr=uh3_finance_web&uhb=uhb2

@Seeker
It's not what you want to hear, but it would be a bad idea to support Genesis, they'd be helping the competition destroy themselves.  What they need to do is make sure they have their own thing so that Genesis loses it;s appeal.  In a thread a year or so back, I predicted that DAZ would pull what they just pulled with Genesis 3.  And what SM (and places like Renderosity) need to be concerned with, is my prediction of moves to follow - which is this:

My prediction (and it is stronger now than it has ever been), is that DAZ might be working towards a locked-in content system.  I think the content manager and all that crap is basically the foundation of such a system.  All DAZ have to do in the future is release a new version of DAZ Studio that cannot load externally purchased content, only content on your DAZ account that was purchased from DAZ.  They have the perfect recipe for it now.  A figure that everyone is drooling over, and program that cannot be changed, which can be yours for free.  If DAZ decided to implement such a thing, that would be the end of stores such as this one, cause just as Apple make sure that all apps are purchased from them, DAZ could design a system where all content must be purchased form DAZ.  Assuming there's someone at SM with the sense to see these things, you won't be seeing Genesis support in Poser.  If Genesis support comes to Poser is simply means that someone over there who is not worthy, is getting paid far too much money for nothing.  I have the perfect, easily implemented solution to this, but without pay, they'll never find out what it is.

Have fun, but above all ...
THINK!

The funny thing is that DAZ3D wants this stuff to work in Poser(DAZ3D make $$$ from selling content, which platform you use doesn't particularly matter to them really) so in a way they are helping keep the Poser market viable and have been for a number of years by offering things like DSON. If what you say is true why did they develop DSON at all? Again you seem to be mistaken DAZ3D hasn't pulled anything, they have been designing market leading figures for how long now? why should they stop innovating just to keep Poser compatibility? Your speculation of DAZ is rather LARGE considering you have no evidence but your own imagination of anything like this happening. Let's face it Pumeco people are not going to be satisfied with naked v4's in temples forever nor with v4 with wings and nice makeup set sitting on a mushroom. If SM/Poser wants to survive they need to innovate and create content that the market wants. Or partner with a market leading content provider. IF they fail to do this they have no one to blame but themselves for a decline. In fact there is a bit of a contradiction in your statement so Daz are trying to drive Poser out by not supporting Poser with G3 and to stop them succeeding in doing that Poser shouldn't support G3. Wouldn't Poser offering G3 support be the best way to stop a locked in system from Daz? Why are SM worried about who makes the content they sell a software platform, no?

The funny thing is that DAZ3D wants this stuff to work in Poser(DAZ3D make $$$ from selling content, which platform you use doesn't particularly matter to them really) so in a way they are helping keep the Poser market viable and have been for a number of years by offering things like DSON. If what you say is true why did they develop DSON at all?

Interesting question, although outside the scope of this topic.  ;)  Recall that when Genesis first came out, Studio 4 Pro was a paid product, ($350, IIRC) as was Studio 3 Advanced before it.  Within months it was free....

@Razor
Regards your Vinyl analogy, niche or not:

• Vinyl was around before Apple existed.
• Vinyl is still around while Apple exists (and is growing by the day while Apple crumbles by the day).
• Vinyl will still be around when Apple are long gone (that's a gurantee).

BTW, Apple is crumbling, this is why they no longer boast using their 'Pie Charts' during keynotes, and when they do boast, it's very carefully worded.
No company likes to point out when they're crumbling, hence the lack of Pie Charts - bubble burst :-D

Oh, and BTW, just so you know, Turntable Manufacture (as well as Vinyl) is on the increase, here's a new one from Teac, isn't she pretty?

So the best way forward for apple would be to drop itunes and start primtimg vinyl? After all teacs new platter wont play mp3s.  nice turntable should serve a good small niche market well. I wonder what its sales figure would be like compared to the latest iphone?

@Razor42: pumeco asserts (apparently not for plain trolling/flamebait purposes) that Debian is poised to achieve world domination; I don't see your efforts aiming to discuss rationally with him being met with a resouding success.

The best way forward is for Apple to die as soon as possible.

As for Vinyl, the format, being analogue it can be recorded to any analogue or digital format without restriction - perfect.  But anyway, don't get me started, lol, I was just replying to your Vinyl analogy.  You know me by now, if Vinyl was a woman I'd be eating my meals from her panties.  But I don't want Shane breathing down my neck, cause if he see's the word "Vinyl" - he just might assume I started it :-D

I'll leave you with the latest development in Vinyl cleaning technology, and don't even try to convice me it's not the way forward, cause you'll fail :

@Chaecuna
I never mentioned Debian here, and I never said it would dominate the world either.  I just don't see the point in supporting inferior tech that is out to screw you when there are far superior things to be had in this world.  It applies to music formats as well as OS platforms.

So like I said before, whatever turns people on I suppose :-D

Vinyl isnt really the point, just replace cd player in the analogy, hopefully these is not some cult nostalgia cd collector lurking in the ranks waiting to further derail the point and tout the cold, clean, precision of a cd. :D I actually have had a fairly sizable vinyl collection myself at times.

Seems your deflecting with this subject line anyways Pumeco. And that pic is just distracting , really distracting :)

@Razor42

You're right I did misread you and I agree 100% with everything you've written.

@pumeco

I also have the the perfect easily implemented solution to this. It's for SM to make a new figure better than V4 with a lot of content and support. It's actually the only part of DazStudio that attracts me. I don't even have an NVidia card so Iray is almost irrelevant to me.

@Razor
Cool to hear you have a sizable Vinyl collection, I hope you help advise the noobs who are coming aboard whenever you find the chance :-)

One of the biggest problems is that people go out and buy those foul old-fashioned design 'Made-in-China' heaps that go for cheap on Amazon and eBay.  They don't realise you need a proper turntable, an amp with at least physical Bass and Treble knobs, and a decent pair of speakers that can reach the low frequencies as well as the highs.

@Seeker
Exactly :-)

"It may seem we're slow to react sometimes that's because we are very careful not to wreck your legacy products as we move forward"

Forgive me sir but at some point you may have to let of go the old stuff if it is an impediment to innovation.

"Our plans are to give animators,>>snipped<

Better late than never...

But frankly

if you do not implement a realtime ,nonlinear  Character animation system like the one I am currently using in Iclone Pro

or at the very  least Daz's

AniMate2 , then don't bother.

Not trying to be contentious sir but some new "animation toys" 

,in the absence of  some genesis level figure tech ,will only infuriate the great Majority of you user base who does not care about creating animation.

.and those of us who do care have largely moved on.

Trust me conduct a sticky poll here or at RNDA before adding any tools that are not Directly related to better native figures.

My prediction (and it is stronger now than it has ever been), is that DAZ might be working towards a locked-in content system.  I think the content manager and all that crap is basically the foundation of such a system.  All DAZ have to do in the future is release a new version of DAZ Studio that cannot load externally purchased content, only content on your DAZ account that was purchased from DAZ.  They have the perfect recipe for it now.  A figure that everyone is drooling over, and program that cannot be changed, which can be yours for free.  If DAZ decided to implement such a thing, that would be the end of stores such as this one, cause just as Apple make sure that all apps are purchased from them, DAZ could design a system where all content must be purchased form DAZ.  Assuming there's someone at SM with the sense to see these things, you won't be seeing Genesis support in Poser.  If Genesis support comes to Poser is simply means that someone over there who is not worthy, is getting paid far too much money for nothing.  I have the perfect, easily implemented solution to this, but without pay, they'll never find out what it is.

Have fun, but above all ...
THINK!

Pumeco,  a locked in content system WAS the original plan.  It is amazing how much stuff has gone down the memory hole and how much information you can find in DAZ's documentation.  Why do you think they went with the DSON file specification?  It was all spelled out.  Everyone seems to have forgotten about the web based version of DS4.  BTW, you can still see demos of it on UTube if you dig around for it.
The original plan was that the content that you purchased at DAZ would reside on servers in Utah, and it would be pushed to your computer for your use - and deleted after you were done. This was DAZ's method of dealing with the casual piracy issue. 
Needless to say, that went over like a popcorn fart in church and DAZ wisely dropped the idea.

"The more I look at the situation, the more I think that Poser users are not interested in creating 3D art but in specifically using Poser.

It would be an interesting experiment to offer them a perpetual 3DStudio/Maya/MODO/Houdini ownership/upgrade in exchange for Poser: I bet that they would decline the offer."

Well to be fair I use Maxon Cinema4D,Blender ,Daz studio,Iclone pro & Natural motion endorphin ,to name a few, all along with poser content for motion transfer to poser or rendering poser content.

However if I had to agree to Cease All poser usage as a condition to get those licenses I would have declined the offer.

I do not believe in Zero Sum absolutes when it comes to  creative tools.

 I am a "CG generalist" for whom tools, OS's Company politics do not matter.

I will learn &use whatever tool/OS  to achieve My paying clients specific objectives

And I have observed that the people, in web forums, who have this Zero sum Mentality about their beloved program or OS,

Rarely, if ever ,have anything compelling to show Their

ACTUAL SKILLS & CREATIVITY using that beloved program or OS

 Just alot of predictable evangelical preaching about how their APP/OS will "rule the Future"

My point is that most of the poser user base feels no need to even use poser content in OTHER programs if it requires leaving the old Kia Krause interface and  workflow.

Thats fine no harm.

This is why SM ( or whomever may own the poser program), will always have a "captive core of paying customers no matter what Draconian,cumbersome product activation scheme they choose to implement or whatever sub par native figures they choose to fob off on the buyers.

"Everyone seems to have forgotten about the web based version of DS4.  BTW, you can still see demos of it on UTube if you dig around for it.

The original plan was that the content that you purchased at DAZ would reside on servers in Utah, and it would be pushed to your computer for your use - and deleted after you were done. This was DAZ's method of dealing with the casual piracy issue.  

Needless to say, that went over like a popcorn fart in church and DAZ wisely dropped the idea."

Of course they Did 
But Amazingly  years later Companies Like Autodesk& Adobe are implementing a similar scheme with  their actual high end professional Software Suites despite the griping of many.

Each market is Different

However My personal Theory is that Daz Realized the following:

'Why rent a car to people who are willing to simply  outright buy the same Cars over and over again as long as it has a higher version number and some superficial "new features"

Nothing new here Samsung,Apple et al does the same with their premium Smartphone lines& mobile OS's.

And people ,by and large, submit willingly.

Look at how quicksome* poser users have

jumped on the "Genesis 3" bandwagon

when they never truly got  fully functional

G1,G2 Female  jack hammered into poser.

So predictable.

People don't want to understand that since Daz3d made Genesis,they want to  "destroy"  Poser as a software and take the control of the entire market, the content market and the software market, yes that is all about, the market, the money, if you control all the apple you get almost all the money, the problem is that they didn't count with the "feelings" of the Poser people base. There are many people that love Daz figures but love more the Poser way.

Now some people says, "We want Genesis support in Poser. SM !!" Don't understanfing that it is the own Daz3d the first that don't want Genesis in Poser, they want people use Genesis in their own software DS.

I think the Daz3d way is a wrong way, if they wanted all the "apple", they must  have bought Poser from E-frontier or Curious labs  years ago, as they did with Bryce.

Anyway, it seems that this is a no-returm road.

People don't want to understand that since Daz3d made Genesis,they want to  "destroy"  Poser as a software and take the control of the entire market, the content market and the software market, yes that is all about, the market, the money, if you control all the apple you get almost all the money, the problem is that they didn't count with the "feelings" of the Poser people base. There are many people that love Daz figures but love more the Poser way.

Now some people says, "We want Genesis support in Poser. SM !!" Don't understanfing that it is the own Daz3d the first that don't want Genesis in Poser, they want people use Genesis in their own software DS.

I think the Daz3d way is a wrong way, if they wanted all the "apple", they must  have bought Poser from E-frontier or Curious labs  years ago, as they did with Bryce.

Anyway, it seems that this is a no-returm road.

That's the situation in a nutshell adh3d.  Plain and simply put. DAZ vowed years ago to be the "Poser killer," even said so publicly in an interview.  That is their goal.

Genesis is/has always been created to work in DS and only DS.  If one wants to use Genesis, it should be done in DS.  After all, the software is free.  What IS the complaint?

Once again, if Poser/SM had followed DAZ down the Genesis rabbit hole, they would have had to re-tool completely TWICE now.  So, instead of Poser enhancements, the only changes to Poser would be "becoming DS" in order for the few people who want to use Genesis in Poser to do so.  The rest of us would be sitting here with a piece of software that behaves like a dead rock.

Steve Cooper made a wise decision not to follow DAZ down that rabbit hole.

Now some people says, "We want Genesis support in Poser. SM !!" Don't understanfing that it is the own Daz3d the first that don't want Genesis in Poser, they want people use Genesis in their own software DS.

This is just not true Daz3d generate revenue primarily through selling content, why did they waste money developing DSON import tools for Poser users? Why have they spent years releasing content with ds and poser mats? They could of just said, no daz studio no genesis, a long time ago. There is no reason SM cannot innovate there software to support the most advanced human figures currently in the market. Oh wait there is one they don't want to. Daz3d is not telling its vendors to drop poser support, most of them are just tired of doing sm's heavy lifting for them and are finally saying you know what, i didnt put any poser mats in my last product and the drop in sales was negligible. smith micro seem perfectly happy to not give their customers access to the newest most advanced content. why is that exactly to expensive to tool, to difficult to implement or they just would prefer to try to block daz3d out.  Which so far has been one of the most unsuccessful business strategies i have seen in quite a long while. But hey if poser users are happy to not have access to this mass of content i guess thats there decision. But i know if i was a newcomer looking at entering this area. It doesnt seem to difficult to see which option is looking the best at the moment.

If you ask me sm should focus on developing the strengths in poser and provide broader support for content, unless they can gear up there own content creation to a higher standard. Let poser thrive on its strengths, what better way to grab a customers attention than showing daz's own products rendered with more features and higher quality than in ds itself. Not so good is it when they are saying, oh yeah, those latest things they don't work in poser and we don't really have anything equivalent to them so you will need to use ds if you want them. For a while there ds was seen as the free lite entry level platform whereas the hefty price ticketed poser was seen as a more serious pro option to graduate to. Unfortunately for sm those days are gone. Ds these days packs quite a punch, many would argue that it is leaving poser behind capability wise. And really, it may be becoming that poser killer.

Letting a split form based on content support will actually harm poser more in the long term than help it despite what glitterati tells you. The last thing any company wants to compete against is a less expensive platform with more available content. Especially if the platform is free and is developing capabilities that equal or even surpass there own offering. So while i understand why people love poser i dont understand the tunnel vision when viewing the issues it is facing.

Steve Cooper made a wise decision not to follow DAZ down that rabbit hole.

IIRC Steve Cooper left SmithMicro. Hint about who is not going down which hole?

I seriously doubt the decision was Steve Coopers alone. He was a manager, not a dictator.

Yeah, listen, the new Vicky has an anus!!!
This could change everything!!!

Yeah, listen, you peeps should stop talking about moving to DAZ just because Vicky has an anus!!!

She always looked like an anus to me anyway!!!
This is nothing new!!!

Later,
Roxie - Girl With Blade

For all the passion vented here on both sides you would think they have an impact on what happens to any the companies.  As it stands SM is doing what it has always done and that is producing 3D software with some stunning features for a reasonable price and leaves the content to someone else.  If they are going to move away from that they certainly are not going to detail that move in the forums.

Daz on the other hand is owned by venture capitalist who make money by funding startups and other concerns, adding as much value as possible in as a short term as possible and then selling the company on.  

It really doesn't matter which side of the fence you are on, if indeed you are on any fence, the object is to make money and as much as possible.  Now we may all feel we have better ideas of how they could make that money but we come to it from a biased position of being, customers, users, vendors and artists and my guess is only the artists are reading, the bean counters certainly are not.

Pumeco,  a locked in content system WAS the original plan.  It is amazing how much stuff has gone down the memory hole and how much information you can find in DAZ's documentation.  Why do you think they went with the DSON file specification?  It was all spelled out.  Everyone seems to have forgotten about the web based version of DS4.  BTW, you can still see demos of it on UTube if you dig around for it.
The original plan was that the content that you purchased at DAZ would reside on servers in Utah, and it would be pushed to your computer for your use - and deleted after you were done. This was DAZ's method of dealing with the casual piracy issue. 
Needless to say, that went over like a popcorn fart in church and DAZ wisely dropped the idea.

Yes, the plan did include a web-version, which presumably would have had content on the cloud (if we were calling it that back then), but as I recall DAZ always said that the format used for Genesis etc. (what was finalised as DSON in DS 4.5) would be open, and as far as I recall denied any intention of locking content in the non-web versions at least. There were certainly an expectation of some kind of DRM system when the Install Manager was announced, but again it was made clear that that was not the plan.

@Ssgbryan
I had no idea they'd even brought it up before, I hardly ever visit the DAZ forums now caus ei'm banned (and I've never managed to persuade Richard to pull a few strings for me - even though he can see how well behaved I am these days).  Anyway, I reckon I only visit DAZ once every 2-3 months, and even then, it's only to catch-up with what my peasant friends are up to on the Bryce forum.

Nevertheless, I'm not surprised it didn't go down well if DAZ already tried it on.  The fact that they tried it on though, means that it was part of their plans, and very likely still is.  If I were to hazard a guess I'd say they tried it on, but felt they wrenlt in solid enough position to face the backlash.  But the more peopkle they can get hooked on Genesis (which is effectively DAZ's bait), the more confident they will become.  If they try it again, next time you might not be so lucky, they'll probably stick it out.

@Richard
Interesting, but DRM is something the public has had enough of already.  Should they implement it, the same thing will happen to them as will happen to Apple eventually.  They see a sudden boost in profit brought about by using a business model they should not be allowed to use.  And rather than being sustainable, it could eventually cost them their business (and reputation).  The funny thing is, while DAZ and SM play these stupid games with apparent zero regard for the customer, there is the MakeHuman/Blender combo that is genuinely designed by the users for the users.

If DAZ and SM keep this up, the MakeHuman/Blender workflow will become the norm sooner than they might expect it to.

Already, it's as easy as designing your figure in MakeHuman, choosing a pre-built rig, and hitting export.  Load that figure into Blender with a single button and you have a fully-rigged and weight-mapped, custom-designed figure without licence restrictions.  And it works, flawlessly.  I'm all for supporting commercial ventures if the product does what I want and it actually works properly.  But the way DAZ and SM are going, they're doing themselves no favours.

If they keep it up, they're going to find more and more people have the same attitude as I do.

MakeHuman/Blender - not going to catch on in this market. Hell if people find Daz's UI hard to get used to, I don't want to know what they will think of Blenders. Plus you are asking people to do things themselves, which are the minority of users in this marketplace. Plus I doubt most of us here can rig a figure that would Rival what Daz puts out.

No, I said that DAZ said the concerns were unneeded - that the Install manager wasn't to include DRM. People were afraid it might, but that was never said by DAZ - it wasn't (as far as I know or could tell) an exercise in kite-flying. I cannot recall any time at which DAZ has indicated an intent to use a locked or DRMed system (.daz files were proprietary, but the content could still be exported as OBJ for props or as CR2 with the developer tools, and the data was available to scripting so it wasn't locked).

If they keep it up, they're going to find more and more people have the same attitude as I do.

I seriously doubt that...

@Razor42 "This is just not true Daz3d generate revenue primarily through selling content, why did they waste money developing DSON import tools for Poser users?"

Just because they measured the wrong  ,when they put genesis only for DS in the market at the first, the power of Poser software in their buyers. I think they thought, well we put DS with this new figure ( that it is a truly great "figure" ) in the market, and almost every poser user , who use V4 in Poser, would run to their arms and in the DS arms.
It was not the case, and of course they notice it in their sales, so, instead of creating a new Poser figure with WM, that in my opinion  it had been the best solution, they insisted to continuetheir strategy and take a measure (DSON) to keep their "Poser" buyers more or less without take down their way.But everybody who has used DSON knows  that DSON is not a solution.

DSON is a much better solution than having two separate WM Versions of Genesis. Ask yourself this, how many people would bother making content twice using different formats? With DSON you only had to do it once and change materials. Creating content for two different WM systems was not a viable solution. Half the content creators would have gladly showed the middle finger and you would end up with content that is Daz only or this is Poser only. DSON gave us the ability to support both platforms with ease. All we needed was SM to help DSON out but they didn't. So ultimately, DSON got a bad rep in Poser due to its performance, which led to little people using it, which led to content creators ultimately dropping DSON support because of the low Poser adoption which didn't generate revenue for the added effort. So now, here we are. Genesis 3 being Daz only.

@Razor42 "This is just not true Daz3d generate revenue primarily through selling content, why did they waste money developing DSON import tools for Poser users?"

Just because they measured the wrong  ,when they put genesis only for DS in the market at the first, the power of Poser software in their buyers. I think they thought, well we put DS with this new figure ( that it is a truly great "figure" ) in the market, and almost every poser user , who use V4 in Poser, would run to their arms and in the DS arms.
It was not the case, and of course they notice it in their sales, so, instead of creating a new Poser figure with WM, that in my opinion  it had been the best solution, they insisted to continuetheir strategy and take a measure (DSON) to keep their "Poser" buyers more or less without take down their way.But everybody who has used DSON knows  that DSON is not a solution.

I still can't quite get your logic here. Why would a company who sells petrol/ gas care what kind of car you put it in? Oh except for the total world domination theory that some seem to be able to detect from daz. Albeit with nothing but intuition. Even if your logic was sound, in the context you have stated what does it mean now that daz3d have dropped poser support for genesis 3? Seems the concerns you implied that forced them to create the dson importers no longer exist? So again it seems sm business strategy to directly opose daz seems to be failing them.

Bottom line, without Genesis3, Poser users will use Genesis 2 as their future go to figure, unless Poser offers them a viable alternative. It's obvious people are tired of V4, if they weren't, then half these "how do I get Genesis2 and DSON to work" threads wouldn't exist. And NO.... Don't come with that we have ROXIE and DAWN argument. IF Poser users wanted them, then there would be more threads about them, as well as content and support. That last bit was for you Glittirus.

@Zev
But that's not true, is it, cause lets face it, Blender already seems to get more airtime around here than Poser does, and MakeHuman just gets better and better and works flawlessly with Blender.  The workflow is to generate the character in a dedicated tool (MakeHuman), then bring it into the hub where everything happens (Blender).  If you find it difficult, you sholuld try again - it's easy and flawless!

@Richard
No worries, I know what you mean, but if they did start using DRM, DS will go out of the door for a lot of people and even more people will never entertain it in the first place.  If there's one thing we can all thank Apple for, it's how aware they've made people of how manipulative DRM is - and why it's to be avoided at all costs.

@David
But they already do, you're just too wrapped-up in your blanket to notice it.  Like I said, this is the Poser forum, yet Blender gets as much discussion around here as Poser does.  Think about that, cause it's quite a biggie indicator is that ;-)

@adh3d
The good people here never listen (well hardly ever), I've tried, and no matter how many times a person is right, they still never listen!
Quite a stubborn bunch, so good luck :-P

Anyway, Roxie is out culling again and I'm off to bed, but she asked me to quote from this song and post it for SM's and DAZ's attention:

"I'm a fountain of blood
In the shape of a girl
You're the bird on the brim
Hypnotised by the Whirl"

Roxie is a very deep girl, to the point that even I don't get what she's on about sometimes (like now for example), but anyway ...

it's easy and flawless!

Easier than just loading a figure designed for these apps and applying assets to them without any real manual intervention? I doubt that. People want to create renders, not assets required in order to create that render. What you asking is that painters need to create their own brushes before they can paint. Most just want to paint. People will pay for that convenience and just buy the brushes.

"DAZ vowed years ago to be the "Poser killer," even said so publicly in an interview.  That is their goal."

I can't get over the irony of that statement because of a post at a different forum by a former owner. If it was years ago then it was different management all together and you can't attribute the statement to the current management that implemented genesis and the new weight mapping.

"DAZ vowed years ago to be the "Poser killer," even said so publicly in an interview.  That is their goal."

I can't get over the irony of that statement because of a post at a different forum by a former owner. If it was years ago then it was different management all together and you can't attribute the statement to the current management that implemented genesis and the new weight mapping.

Indeed.  DAZ is now a small piece of a $74 Billion corporation.  The question for their current management is; does it increase the value of DAZ more to increase sales by continuing to support Poser compatible, at some development expense, or not support Poser and eventually charge for the Pro/Advanced versions of Studio, as was originally envisaged...

"eventually charge for the Pro/Advanced versions of Studio, as was originally envisaged..."

They tried that for a little while and it was counter productive. I seriously doubt they will ever go back to charging for the product when they generate far more on content sales. Any time you have an "entrance fee" you run the risk of limiting your market. Additionally, the vast majority of users are on the same page version wise and that makes the program easier to support.

"DAZ vowed years ago to be the "Poser killer," even said so publicly in an interview.  That is their goal."

I can't get over the irony of that statement because of a post at a different forum by a former owner. If it was years ago then it was different management all together and you can't attribute the statement to the current management that implemented genesis and the new weight mapping.

Indeed.  DAZ is now a small piece of a $74 Billion corporation.  The question for their current management is; does it increase the value of DAZ more to increase sales by continuing to support Poser compatible, at some development expense, or not support Poser and eventually charge for the Pro/Advanced versions of Studio, as was originally envisaged...

Or option, three expand into the larger market (As with G3 DQ weight maps) and continue to drive revenue by offering a free platform and relying on the sale of content. There are some obvious advantages of giving DS away for free you do not seem to be seeing. DA has a whole bunch of powerful development tools included for free. Putting these in the hands of users mean more content will be developed for DS which in turn can lead to increased revenue for DAZ3D when those users partner with DS(the largest market) to sell their content. Giving the platform away for free also means costs are consolidated as the user base is for the most part is consistently on the same version of the platform. Poser suffers from a fragmented user base simply because the cost of chasing upgrades to the platform creates a lag effect. In its most basic application giving it away means more user -> means more customer buying content.

Daz3D having strong investors is more of an asset than a weakness. Investment on this scale allows daz to input that very investment directly into DS development and in turn content development. And in turn a stronger platform, larger user base, more content sold. I really don't see how you can be representing this with such a negative slant.

I find it funny how rife speculation is that DAZ will all of sudden backflip on their current business model just because they can, in ways that are obviously detrimental to their own business. It's like saying of course the most successful free to play game is going to start charging a subscription to play now they are so big. The very reason they are so successful is because of the free to play system, why would they take the risk to change to an opposing business model. Of course one reason would be so they can lol evilly "Muhahaha, gosh we showed them Poser users" other than that I don't see any logic to the argument that this model is any way linked to Poser content sales. Seems like scaremongering to me.

Genesis 1 and 2 left me cold. Genesis 3 I want. I can't really tell you why, it's subjective, the figure appeals to me. And it seems that, having moved to accommodate industry standards, supporting Genesis 3 (if not the earlier versions) natively in Poser may be possible now. 

Accepting that Studio is the proper environment for Genesis, I have been trying to get my head around it. I am frustrated and irritated beyond my tolerance.

Disparage Poser's interface all you want, I get things done with it. The Studio interface is like a huge rock in the middle of the road for me.

I want to use Genesis 3, and I want it in Poser. If it can be done, I'll be happy, and Smith Micro and Daz will both get my money. Just saying.

Genesis 3 has got something indeed :) . Not happy with all those Character sets, because my idea of an "eye candy" female body shape obviously differs from most vendors' ideas, but I am about to create shapes myself. The G3 bendings are maybe the best of all figures, I ever had on my system - although they are mostley based on JCMs. That JCM system must be brilliant, because mixing those look great. I couldn't find any bad joint issues anywhere. Give G3 a "scrath back of Head" pose. Not easy, neither Roxie nor G2F can do it easiley.

DAZ's double attack on Poser (iRAY and G3) puts a lot of pressure on SM. I hope SM makes the best of it.

 Quick question for anyone advocating Poser fully supports Genesis. People keep mentioning this, but none of you ever addresses it in response, so I'm putting it to you directly, considering Poser's development schedule versus Studio's always in beta  status, how is Poser supposed to handle a complete Genesis re-tool like this if it did fully support Genesis?

The change to Genesis 3 is what makes it possible. The weightmapping is no longer  a Daz-specific system, but industry standard. Daz wants to have the figure usable in other 3d packages, not just Poser. If that's what they want, they won't change it so lightly. If Poser adopts that industry standard, not only Genesis 3, but possibly other figures developed using the dual quaternion skinning system will be available to Poser users. Makes sense to me.

I don't believe the "Studio is always in beta status" label applies any more. Studio follows figure technology, because that is Daz's business model. But it doesn't feel like beta software at all. I dislike it, but this is a finished product.

 Quick question for anyone advocating Poser fully supports Genesis. People keep mentioning this, but none of you ever addresses it in response, so I'm putting it to you directly, considering Poser's development schedule versus Studio's always in beta  status, how is Poser supposed to handle a complete Genesis re-tool like this if it did fully support Genesis?

Perhaps by collaborating with the largest content provider on the web? The way most platform developers do. Is that really such an abstract thought? Studio isn't always in Beta it has normal development cycles Beta, Release Candidate, Release, well documented and accessible. Maybe there development cycles are somewhat faster than Posers, but there is no reason that compromise couldn't be found for the sake of long term viability of the Poser platform. What will be more expensive for SM in the long term working on their platform to extend support or fast tracking new content development to fill the void? Doing neither is the most riskiest plan.

But anyway I have pretty much exhausted reasonable dialogue on this subject, in the end SM will do as SM pleases. Hopefully whatever they choose to do will be in the interest of maintaining Poser as a viable platform for years to come and not leave lagging and lacking content.