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Poser F.A.Q (Updated: 2019 Jan 31 1:28 pm)


 Subject: SSS Eyes best technique

Boni opened this issue on Jun 30, 2014 · 61 posts

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  Boni    ( ) ( posted at 10:28PM Mon, 30 June 2014 

I just ordered pp2014, upgradingfrom pp2010.  I just watched the sm webinar covering sss, butthey didm't cover eyes.  Iwould like to know how to make good sss eyes in 2014.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Boni

Boni



"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork


  cspear    ( ) ( posted at 7:43AM Tue, 01 July 2014  · @4160641

  1. Use SnarlyGribbly's EZ-Skin 

  2. I'm not convinced SSS on eyes is needed for anything other than close-ups


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  Boni    ( ) ( posted at 8:35AM Tue, 01 July 2014  · @4160653

Agreed, but I am looking for instructions, rather than a prepackaged product.  Any tutorials out there?

Boni



"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork


  vilters    ( ) ( posted at 9:04AM Tue, 01 July 2014  · @4160662

Eyes are special.

The eyeball, the iris, the pupil, the cornea, all need to be looked into, and all attribute to the final result, and some will certainly interfere with each other.
Do all need SSS?

Be certain to put them all in different SSS groups or you can get some nasty blue artifacts.
Have not seen a tut on the subject yet.

I think BB had en eye setup on his site. You could check there and build from there on?

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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 9:17AM Tue, 01 July 2014 · edited on 9:20AM Tue, 01 July 2014 · @4160667

I have not posted an eye setup on my site.

I have in various threads, but I have problems with a generic solution.

  1. Different figures have wildly different arrangements. (Eyesurface that overlaps everything and includes cornea, eyesurface that overlaps everything as well as a separate cornea surface, no eyesurface just a cornea, etc.)

  2. The luminance level on the sclera is wildly different on one texture set versus another, so tuning to match what real eyes look like is always an exercise on your part which requires that you fully understand how to build and tune a shader.

  3. People differ on whether they intend to go for max realism or they just want quick and dirty and they're willing or even enthusiastic to use textures with burned-in highlights. These look incredibly stupid when you use scatter and real reflections.

  4. People do not pay attention to the environmental factors - your light source(s) had better be tuned for realism (use my light meter first) and if you want good looking reflections based on realistic reflection values (Fresnel!), you need HDRI imaging or real props that glow at HDR levels. (Much greater than 1)

  5. Poser transparency lets light through a cornea/surface onto the iris. Poser refraction does not. Realism requires refraction. Therefore you get little or no light on the iris. Compensations require understanding how to self-light the iris just enough to deal with this. Or require crafting a cornea as a separate actor (as I did with the BB eye) so that you can turn off shadow casting on from the cornea.


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  Boni    ( ) ( posted at 12:12PM Tue, 01 July 2014  · @4160705

Wow, this is exactly what I'm looking for.  I do understand some of the challenges involved ... but believe that the result would be worth it.  Primarily I will be workingiwth V4 ... but knowing that I'd have to approach different figures differently helps a lot. 

After reading over your list BB, (may I call you BB?) I was caught by the problem of Transparency and refraction ... and self illumination for the iris.  Since I'm upgrading from PP2010 to PP2014 I haven't had the pleasure of working with self illumination yet.  Would this be a workable solution if worked with subtly? 

Also since the environment plays such a strong factor in this ... finding a "master" shading system for each figure to use in well orginized scenes, using good environmental spheres such as yours could be counter productive?  That is each shader must be created to fit a particular scene ... or could a master be made that could be used in any scene as long as the scene is set up well? 

Vilters: you have braught up some good questions too.  I'm definately bookmarking this thread! 

Boni

Boni



"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork


  Miss Nancy    ( ) ( posted at 1:51PM Tue, 01 July 2014  · @4160729

in re: 4, didn't they fix refraction shadow-casting yet?



  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 2:51PM Tue, 01 July 2014  · @4160745

Quote - in re: 4, didn't they fix refraction shadow-casting yet?

No and I reopened the bug report on the bend angle - turns out it isn't done right.


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  Miss Nancy    ( ) ( posted at 5:01PM Tue, 01 July 2014  · @4160790

also in re: 4, have noticed reflected scenes usually too dark, and apparently it isn't user error.



  Boni    ( ) ( posted at 5:33PM Wed, 02 July 2014  · @4160987

I have another question.  Why is it with most poser renders that the shadow of the lid and lashes never come down over the upper portion of the eye as it does in "real life"? It's an effect I've tried to figure out for a long time. 

Thanks

Boni

Boni



"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork


  Miss Nancy    ( ) ( posted at 6:19PM Wed, 02 July 2014  · @4160989

they may use shadow-mapped lites, low pixel samples or high shading rate.  they may also turn off shadows, like they do for transmapped hair.



  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:47PM Fri, 11 July 2014 · edited on 1:47PM Fri, 11 July 2014 · @4162359

Sorry I was gone so long. I am in the middle of developing VSS Pro and I wanted to use it while working on these settings, since it is so much easier to make multi-material changes with a single click in VSS.

So I have done some experiments and I'll show you some techniques on how to set up eye shaders on V4.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:49PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162360


Before I show shaders, let's get some results up here. I'm going to use the same figure, with no shader changes, but light it many different ways. Thus you'll get a sense of how much of the environment is reflected in the eyes! (literally)

First - sun and sky (one infinite light, cloudy sky EnvSphere).


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:50PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162361


3 Spot lights in a black environment


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:51PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162362


Indoors in a kitchen. (No lights, EnvSphere set up with a JPG that I boosted to HDR levels)


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:52PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162363


In a Newport Loft. (No Lights, EnvSphere with HDRI) This condo is dark but a large wall full of windows is in front of the figure.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:53PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162364


On a desert highway. (No lights, EnvSphere with HDRI)


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:57PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162367


The V4 eye has three "transparency" layers floating over the solid eye parts: 

The cornea (seen here in magenta) covers only the iris.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 2:00PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162368


The EyeSurface covers the whole eye and includes a bulge for the cornea (if you morph it). 


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 2:01PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162369


The Tear surface is along the bottom lid, and more over the lacrimal.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 2:05PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162370


You have options to deal with the eye.

My suggestions:

  1. Use the Cornea and Sclera to make reflections. Make the EyeSurface invisible.

  2. Use the EyeSurface to make reflections. Make the Cornea invisible.

Option 1 gives the best results as you can apply procedural bump to the sclera and refraction to the cornea and get a very realistic looking eye. But you only notice the incremental benefit up close, and there are some gotchas to it that make it more work.

Option 2 is less work and gives good results. I did option 2 in all those images, so it's pretty good.

So - either way you need to make something invisible. This is the shader to do it.

It is 100% transparent in all directions.


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  aRtBee    ( ) ( posted at 2:24PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162374

BB, looks promising, but...

in photography, one usually sets the camera focus to the eye(s), so these are "tack sharp" in any image whatever the camera DoF set.

But in the images above, the facial skin appears quite sharp while the eyes make a blurred and watered impression to me. I see a difference, in my opinion it's too much, and the wrong way around. She seems just to start/stop crying to me.

Hope this gets improved upon.

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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 2:29PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162375


This little group of nodes is your friend. I use it over and over and over.

The Reflect node gives us reflections from objects. (including the EnvSphere)

The Blinn node gives us reflections from Poser lights. Lights are a fiction - they're not really there. They have no size. 

The Blinn eccentricity affects the apparent size of the light source as well as the apparent blurriness of the object. It has to be matched to the Reflect node's softness. But not literally matched - the two values have very different interpretations.

In my shader work, I express the "blur" of a surface with the word "blur". Blur can be 0, .1, .5, .75737, 1, 1.5, 2, 5, etc. Above 5, Poser's Reflect node softness really breaks down and doesn't work, so watch out for that.

To translate blur to Reflect and Blinn nodes, I use the following rules:

Reflect.softness = blur <--- that was easy!

Blinn.eccentricity = .03 + .065 * blur 

In this shader, I used a blur of .1, and so that is how the values got there.

The Blinn node also has its own built-in sort-of Fresnel effect (SpecularRollOff), which I turn off (set to 1 = no falloff) because I intend to always modulate reflections with a Fresnel_Blend node.

The Blinn Reflectivity controls its brightness. This is a "relative" term. If you try to understand this Reflectivity deeply, you will probably fail and we'll have to have a very long conversation about this one parameter and how Poser's unitless light system is kind of a pain.

Short answer, is I use this formula

Blinn.Reflectivity = 90 * (.5 ** blur)

That's 1/2 raised to a number equal to my chosen blur. In this case, with blur = .1, that comes to 83.973. (I did not type this - VSS built it.)

The Reflect Quality parameter is very fussy to deal with. As a rule of thumb, for curved things it can be under .5 with moderate blur. If your blur is 0, it can be .1. VSS generates appropriate values based on the blur. For eyes which really don't need blur at all, you could speed them up by removing the blur (blur = 0) and set the Quality to .1.

I don't want to talk about RayBias. It's complicated. I left it at its default for now.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 2:49PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162377

Quote - But in the images above, the facial skin appears quite sharp while the eyes make a blurred and watered impression to me. I see a difference, in my opinion it's too much, and the wrong way around. She seems just to start/stop crying to me.

Hope this gets improved upon.

Are you talking about the iris and sclera texture (color maps) or the reflections?

The color maps are a little blurry in and of themselves, and then the Scatter node smears them some more. This is adjustable. I didn't attend to it.

But I don't know if that's what you're referring to.


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  Miss Nancy    ( ) ( posted at 2:56PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162378

thx fr great eye discussion!  they don't look blurry on my monitor.



  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:12PM Fri, 11 July 2014 · edited on 3:13PM Fri, 11 July 2014 · @4162382


I wanted to check my work, so I set up the EnvSphere with the famous Doge's Palace HDRI. This has buildings against a bright white sky.

This is with the blur set to .1. The reflections look sharp to me.

I don't use blur = 0 very often, because I like to use pretty crappy min shading rate for speed, and so you sometimes see jaggies in reflections. By softening reflections a bit, those jaggies go away. This saves me having to use costly low MSR for the whole scene.

A blur of .1 is not enough to smear reflections on a curved surface - but just enough to hide pixellation artifacts.

Now, being that we're up close here, the unnatural smoothness of the sclera is revealed. A closeup requires that you no use EyeSurface, but rather you set up cornea and sclera for the reflections. We'll get to that later.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:17PM Fri, 11 July 2014 · edited on 3:21PM Fri, 11 July 2014 · @4162383


Ok so here's the shader for a smooth eye surface. In the above images, I used this on 7_EyeSurface and 7_Tear.

If you don't like the tear at all (many people don't) then use the invisible shader on it instead. 

For artistic reasons, I increased the IOR to 1.4 - this gives slightly more obvious reflections without being ridiculous. The actual IOR of water is 1.33. I assume tears are close to that, but perhaps salt increases the IOR? In which case, my 1.4 is probably dead on.

We also possibly have a thin-film effect bouncing light between cornea and water surface, which may increase the reflection amount. So it's sensible to go higher if you like.

If you love glassy shiny eyes, go way higher - try 1.5 or 1.6. (Glass is 1.54) If you go above 1.6 it looks crazy like silicon eyes. Don't do that.

The way this is working is that the Fresnel_Blend node gives us a proportion for how much light is reflected. The complement of that is refracted. It turns out that when you plug something into Transparency, the value is assumed to be an opacity which is multiplied with other things - in particular with Alternate_Diffuse. The complement of what is plugged in is transmitted. 

Voila !

Note: My node names are sometimes adding or removing _ - this is because VSS generated them. Learn your nodes and the _ will never bother your understanding.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:28PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162385


Here's my shader for sclera+iris+pupil.

It's basically color map -> scatter.

However, I like to adjust. I always enjoy having an HSV node after my color map so I can tweak. Here I tinted it yellow (because I felt the color map was too blue). I also made it brighter (Value = 1.5). You can adjust saturation as well, but I didn't need to here.

I also have an HSV after the scatter. This is because I found it best to boost the input to scatter and then suppress the output. I can't tell you why this helps, but it does. I generally leave that .8 Value no matter what.

So the chain is color map -> HSV -> scatter -> HSV.

The bump part is optional. The texture set I loaded had a bump map here. If you're going to use the bump map, do it right. 

  1. Make it linear - set its gamma = 1

  2. Subtract .5 so that gray is "no change". 


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:31PM Fri, 11 July 2014 · edited on 3:33PM Fri, 11 July 2014 · @4162386


This is the shader for iris and pupil. It's exactly the same nodes as the sclera because we're using the EyeSurface for reflections. If we use sclera for reflections, then this will remain the setup for iris and pupil, but sclera will change quite a bit.

However - the node values here are NOT the same. I wanted the somewhat weak blue iris texture to be more exciting. So I boosted both saturation and value. And I didn't need the yellow tint.

I forgot to mention earlier - your eye scatters need to be in a different scatter group than your skin scatter. Assuming your skin is group 1, set the eye scatters to 2 as I've done here.

If you don't remember to make a different scatter group, then the skin will look blue around the eyeballs.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:55PM Fri, 11 July 2014 · edited on 3:56PM Fri, 11 July 2014 · @4162389


Now if you're going to do a closeup and you want bumpy reflections on the sclera ...

  1. Use the "invisible" shader on EyeSurface

  2. Use the "smooth reflection" shader on Cornea.

  3. Use this on Sclera.

This shader is basically BBGlossy in modern form using all the features of the current Poser.

Note: This bump map is crap. First of all it's derived from the color map, so the dark arteries become indentations. I had to invert the bump value to -.03 inches to flip the depressions into ridges. You probably want to use a good bump map and won't need to flip the sign on the bump. Or - perhaps we should (as I so often do) discard the bump map and use a procedural bump. Hmmm - I will try that in a bit.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:58PM Fri, 11 July 2014  · @4162390


Bumpy sclera with reflections looks like this.


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