LPR001 posted at 4:18PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236271

One hour nap and at first glance I thought I was reading the Financial Times. What on earth has Smith Micro's P&L Statement got to do with the Daz DRM woes Razor? Although reading it L Statement might be a better choice.

I'm not sure tbh, I believe this #4235778 led to · #4235785 which led to #4236175 so I thought it would have some context. But feel free to remove it and drop it in the Poser Forum if you think it will be more relevant there. ;)

I do have one question I looked at the info over the greyed out icon and took it how you have explained this here. So is there a few bugs to iron out or will it take time to go through my content and list it all appropriately? because I see a few of those for my content that has been on my drive for years. Could this also be the poser companion files etc because I had Poser and Daz on two separate computers at one stage after upgrade so skipped a heap of the installs. Never bothered to catch up.

I know it will take a little time to migrate your old content from 4.8 to 4.9 as the way it connects to your file storage is slightly different than in 4.8. So give it some time but let me know if it persists and I will see if I can direct you to a solution.

[Razor42] I'm not sure what any of this has to do with DS 4.9 anyway or really why you seem to be trying to tell a story with very few facts, it comes across as slightly malicious like you're planting seeds of disinformation for a particular reason? ...

And that's the 2nd or 3rd time that he's tried it. Disinformation like this needs to be stopped. Seriously this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. And to be honest, the DAZ of today is in a MUCH better state than the previous management, so I'm not sure why this even matters.

Black__Days posted at 4:48PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236272

Razor42 posted at 1:14AM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236266

Once you download your Daz Connect item it will be stored locally on your hard drive in an Encrypted format similar to the way DIM does (DIM files are unchanged and unencrypted at this point).

Oh. So it's basically a DRM thing, forcing users to install content from inside the client, so that it will be harder to install things obtained in a shady fashion without DAZ knowing about it. I am okay with this.

Thats pretty much it, but more an encryption on the Daz3D product files in the future to make it harder for gimbot pirates to just drop them on Warez sites after downloading them. All external content such as Renderosity products will continue to work in the usual fashion.

Thanks Razor i have been busy and have a large content library I was thinking it was a bit much to expect it to happen in the time I had it open so far and considering if I was to click on an item that was indicated to be in the cloud it loaded in seconds. Considering my average net speed if the DRM was going to work that fast with a download I would pray they added Netflix to their portfolio.

LPR001 posted at 4:58PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236285

Thanks Razor i have been busy and have a large content library I was thinking it was a bit much to expect it to happen in the time I had it open so far and considering if I was to click on an item that was indicated to be in the cloud it loaded in seconds. Considering my average net speed if the DRM was going to work that fast with a download I would pray they added Netflix to their portfolio.

From all reports the product DRM, or Daz Connect Encryption if you prefer, should have no discernable negative impact on download times and may actually download faster then DIM products. Plus Daz Connect items allow incremental updates which means, if there is a change made to a 1gig file a downloaded update would only need to download the changed portion of the product. This will also allow Daz to make quick updates on the fly without needing a more time consuming full rebuild of the product.

Oh. So it's basically a DRM thing, forcing users to install content from inside the client, so that it will be harder to install things obtained in a shady fashion without DAZ knowing about it. I am okay with this.

Partly, they have also really beefed up smart content. Someones been working like crazy getting older stuff better organized and they have added some pluses to the smart content pane as well. One is that the info tab at the bottom contains much more information than it did in the past. It also is suppose to be able to link directly from the product there to the read me information. I did it once and can not for the life of me figure out how I did it so I'm at least nominally confused by that one though. There is also a shop in there that has freaked a few people out because they are afraid it will be invasive or constantly in contact with the store. Of course the reality there is that it is so unobtrusive that I've had to help several people actually locate it. And the information presented is sort of "rote" and related to your category selection rather than exactly what you as an individual might crave. Its kind of cool to see things that way though and I will say that the images are making it much easier for me to locate things in smart content. Something I was resistant to until now.

I did a couple of speed tests the other day. My average download for characters and hair was around 32 second on my fairly middling internet. That also would have been when the servers were pretty slammed.

LPR001 posted at 7:58AM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236271

One hour nap and at first glance I thought I was reading the Financial Times. What on earth has Smith Micro's P&L Statement got to do with the Daz DRM woes Razor? Although reading it L Statement might be a better choice.

I will explain things veeeeeery sloooooooly so that everybody, even those inhabiting (or pretending to inhabit) the far left side of the bell curve will be able to understand.

Smith Micro financial situation has impact on the viability of Poser as a continuing developed product or, more sensibly, in our case, with its survival. The evolution of Poser impacts the monopoly status that DAZ is achieving and, consequently, their commercial policies.

B.t.w. SMSI is even worse that what it appears from the above sources because:

• delisting and ending in the pink slip market, with the related effect on customers trust in SMSI is, with the current situation almost certain (when customers to not trust your situation as firm, they are not going to establish a continued relationship with you, the way things work in main SMSI market, telco HW/SW);

• there are consistent signs that SMSI main customer (Sprint IIRC) is "looking elsewhere" and when you lose 70% of your business in a single strike...

• its management has added a poison pill clause to its shares therefore there is no more hope of some investor stepping in, acquiring the control of the firm, firing the board and saving the ship.

Summing up, as SMSI is now, it is foreseable that it will simply go down into BK (bankruptcy) and Poser most likely will to become an orphaned product. Or maybe not, DAZ might buy it for peanuts and add to it Genesis compatibility and DAZ Connect...

@chaecuna You are drawing a pretty long bow claiming SM's financial status has a direct bearing for the reason for Daz going the mighty cloud/DRM and therefore relevant on this thread raised by the OP. Drop it please

@Male_M3dia You are right there is no reason that I can see why there is the need to put forward dodgy at best info on the previous Daz owners/staff or anybody for that matter it is disrespectful. By the time I saw it you had already made your point and made it loud & clear I figured members will read it and realise what was being said should be taken with a grain of salt. Which is what it's worth. Don't let it get to you I think you have been around here long enough to know right from the posting of the topic how this thread was going to go.

@Razor42 Hope so I am Daz fan but their DIM was as slow as a wet weekend at times it was like watching the grass grow even when my net speed was up

We're also caught between 'how DAZ Connect is meant to work' and what's actually implemented in the current Beta.

Not in this Beta... is the ability to convert a chosen product you already have on your drive into 'DAZ Connect ready' version, with no re-downloading the whole item.

DAZ are recommending people hold off on 'converting' in this Beta as the re-downloads won't be necessary in a later version.

prixat posted at 7:20PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236297

We're also caught between 'how DAZ Connect is meant to work' and what's actually implemented in the current Beta.

Not in this Beta... is the ability to convert a chosen product you already have on your drive into 'DAZ Connect ready' version, with no re-downloading the whole item.

DAZ are recommending people hold off on 'converting' in this Beta as the re-downloads won't be necessary in a later version.

That's true, but it is well, a Beta release.

chaecuna posted at 7:22PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236294

Smith Micro financial situation has impact on the viability of Poser as a continuing developed product or, more sensibly, in our case, with its survival. The evolution of Poser impacts the monopoly status that DAZ is achieving and, consequently, their commercial policies.

Really any citations? :) Again you're insinuating something sinister is going on with DAZ3D with words like (monopoly) with no real actual data to back it up. Of course personal opinion and speculation may be strongly influencing your statements?

Daz3D has a monopoly I guess someone should let Autodesk, Pixologic and many other players know, as I'm sure it will be news to them.

What makes you think that Poser/Smith Micro is a competitor to Daz3D anyway? I'd be interested in seeing your opinion in what they are in direct competition with other than by vigilant forumites rattling sabres. And why you think the actions or inactions of SM in regards to Poser actually influence the development of Daz Studio at all? It seems more the other way around of late Poser development is influenced by DS. Just look at talks about Poser 2020 or whatever it is tagged as these days ;)

EDIT: Sorry just seen LPR asking the subject to be dropped, so consider the question marks rhetorical.

As long as Studio can do unencrypted exports then any DRM on imported content is moot. Weather from DAZ own storefront or any other storefront. I would be more worried about the connection between my credit details and the store front. If I am being given "suggestions" as to what product will work in my scene based on currently used products in said scene; and I can purchase the suggested asset without leaving Studio or the scene I am working on; then DAZ is attaching my credit details to their "secure server" which they claim is not true. I was told in the DAZ forums that this was not possible. That the server with the content is not the same server as that which holds my credit data. If such is the case then there must be a link between DS4.9 and both their content server and their business server. Someone isn't telling the whole story. Is the protection of DAZ PAs more important than the credit data protection of the customer?

parkdalegardener posted at 8:55AM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236313

As long as Studio can do unencrypted exports then any DRM on imported content is moot. Weather from DAZ own storefront or any other storefront. I would be more worried about the connection between my credit details and the store front. If I am being given "suggestions" as to what product will work in my scene based on currently used products in said scene; and I can purchase the suggested asset without leaving Studio or the scene I am working on; then DAZ is attaching my credit details to their "secure server" which they claim is not true. I was told in the DAZ forums that this was not possible. That the server with the content is not the same server as that which holds my credit data. If such is the case then there must be a link between DS4.9 and both their content server and their business server. Someone isn't telling the whole story. Is the protection of DAZ PAs more important than the credit data protection of the customer?

I don't think you understand how software development works. You can make calls from an app to other secure services and make it look like they're one app so it's seamless to the customer. For instance if you use paypal for your purchases instead of using a credit card directly, all the app needs to to is make the appropriate calls so that it connects to that and sends the result back to the calling app so it knows whether the transaction succeeded or not.

parkdalegardener posted at 1:39AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236313

As long as Studio can do unencrypted exports then any DRM on imported content is moot.

So to export a figure as you describe you would need to export the mesh, then the morphs, the weight maps, the JCM's, Then rebuild the figure from the exports, redo the ERC settings, reattach all the texture maps and surface settings. Make sure all the naming conventions are correct or it won't work with other content, Re-save each preset option, reassociate all of the thumbs. Recreate the metadata. Forget any HD settings, Extract the data and create a new product directory wrapper. And at the end deliver it all bug free with no errors working to the same standard as a Daz3D QA'd product.

Wouldn't it be easier to just create a product and sell it at Daz3D?

Someone isn't telling the whole story. Is the protection of DAZ PAs more important than the credit data protection of the customer?

So your writing on a website that was hacked this year through a man in the middle and compromised at lot of personal data to give an opinion that Daz3D would be so careless in their latest build that they could compromise your security. There are plenty of apps such as itunes that allow In App purchasing without compromising customer security, I'm not sure why you would see it as impossible to do safely as it's quite a common practice these days. It seems your drawing an assumption based on "I don't know how it works therefore: LIES" I would expect that Daz3D would protect it's customers security as a pretty top priority as there business depends on it. no? Unless you know something I don't?

The store front does not work the way people seem to think it does. First you don't get suggestions based on what is in your scene exactly. It is based on what you have selected in smart content at the time. Right now I have a primitive selected in my scene and am looking at Iray shader presets so I get a selection of products that are shader preset related. If I swap to Figure/Female/Real World I get a selection of realistic female characters and figures. If I load genesis 3 female then and have her selected in the scene I then only get a selection of characters that work on her. If for some reason you have a whip selected in your scene you may get a suggestion of chains. But only if whips and chains are in the same category of props (I have no clue as I don't own either, sorry). Other wise your just going to get a selection of hand held props that will include everything from books to butterfly nets.

I don't have any problem with the DRM as long as it doesn't get in the way of how I use the product. With what DAZ sells and the fact you need to do modifications to pretty much all of it putting any kind of usable DRM on it is a tall order. My biggest worry is how it is going to change my workflow, I have my library arraigned by file folder not database, and how connect works will break that. For connect to work for me at all I'm going to have to see what it will take to do my organization in the database. As such there is going to be a "wait and see" aspect to it.

The other thing that comes to mind is that in the current arrangement, DAZ provides the program for free, and sells the content. Which means for anything other than essential figures, you can circumvent their DRM by simply buying your content somewhere else. Here for example. I can't see how adding DRM is going to do anything but reduce sales because some people will absolutely refuse to deal with it. It will be an interesting experiment, I don't see where it can possibly work.

Razor42 posted at 8:15PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236078

"Regarding DRM. It's been tried, tested and has failed where music and video content is concerned so I can't see it working for DAZ. I'll give it a week or two before the hackers and crackers reverse engineer the files and post them online."

Really? well it should be no issue to name a movie or music or game online supplier that uses no form of DRM then right?

I never stated that DRM isn't used, just that it's been a failure because it's been broken and removed from content. Not just by crackers but by everyday users. But don't just take my word for it, a simple internet search is all you have to do.

How long would it take the Hackers and crackers to get onto your system if they wanted? Do you take any precautions on your own system or posessions to make it more difficult for theft if it was attempted.

You speak as if I was born yesterday. You don't know me or my abilities where PC hardware / software is concerned so why speculate? And we aren't talking about hacking a website server to steal content, we're takling about DRM protected software that is downloaded

Why should Daz3D not do the same. If reasonable measure can be taken to make theft more difficult why should they not be taken?

I didn't say they shouldn't do the same, did I? I stated I think it's a waste of time as it's already been removed from legally obtained music and movies. So if it can be removed from music and movies it can be removed from DAZ content, can't it?

"Really? well it should be no issue to name a movie or music or game online supplier that uses no form of DRM then right?" (Referencing original post #4236078)

Actually no, it isn't an issue to name them. Most places will sell you DRM free music at this point, the only people adding DRM are monthly subscription services. Here's a good place to go for a listing: http://www.techhive.com/article/155512/online_music_drm.html DRM free game online supplier, try this one: http://www.gog.com/

Movies, aside from Indie producers yeah, it's tough to find DRM free movies (aside from pirate sites of course)

Razor42 posted at 6:37PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236259

@ WandW

Also I'm not sure why the dedication to comparing Poser with DAZ3D, it's like comparing Apple with Internet Explorer or Microsoft with Itunes. One is an asset (a thing owned by a company) and one is an organisation/company.

I responding to a comment by another poster who brought up SM. The point I was trying to make is that the management of DAZ has changed (The article I linked to above mentions NTT Domoco's stake in DAZ, as well of those of a couple of other capital firms which are no longer active.) It is no longer run by artists but by businessmen, and changes there are entirely consistent with preserving corporate value. People shouldn't get bent about it, because it won't make a difference...

So, Daz Studio 4.9 is going to suggest products to you, based one some criteria, as you use it. One of two things must therefore be true: either Daz Studio maintains a constant connection to the content server(s), which will eat up your bandwidth; or it maintains a massive, ever-expanding database file of all products on the content servers, and constantly searches it, and therefore adds to processor load and eats up disk space. Also, if the database option is how it works (which is honestly more likely, since it would just use the metadata already in place and be cheaper for Daz besides due to bandwidth costs and server load associated with constant searches from the client), how much do you want to bet it will one day expand to include at least one (likely all) of the marketing images on each product's storefront page? Thousands and thousands of images passively stored on your HDD, updated every time a PA makes a change to their storefront images...

This database file is going to be freaking huge.

Honestly, the whole idea sounds like a bad one to me. Sure, it'll mean more sales for them in the short run and all that. But honestly, if it's going to eat resources like it seems like it will eventually, it might as well have something like Clippy from Word 98 pop up everytime you add content to your scene: "I see you added a Victoria 7 character to your scene. Would you like to check out the new panties for her that just became available?"

WandW posted at 10:47AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236379

Razor42 posted at 6:37PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236259

@ WandW

Also I'm not sure why the dedication to comparing Poser with DAZ3D, it's like comparing Apple with Internet Explorer or Microsoft with Itunes. One is an asset (a thing owned by a company) and one is an organisation/company.

I responding to a comment by another poster who brought up SM. The point I was trying to make is that the management of DAZ has changed (The article I linked to above mentions NTT Domoco's stake in DAZ, as well of those of a couple of other capital firms which are no longer active.) It is no longer run by artists but by businessmen, and changes there are entirely consistent with preserving corporate value. People shouldn't get bent about it, because it won't make a difference...

Again, this is just not true, Investors don't run companies unless ,individually, they hold a majority of the companys equity. Companies are ran by a managements team and report to their investors. There is a big difference. The link I provided shows Daz currently has 4 major investor groups and I doubt any hold a majority of equity over Daz3D unless you can show otherwise it's speculation. Having a stakes is totally different than owning a company. People get bent out of shape when you state fallacies like there true in most cases. Especially when they are intended for no purpose other than to be malicious. Have you met the Daz Management team? Your speculating maliciously to what end? The link you have provided doesn't prove any of the assumptions you're putting out there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_capital

I think we should all assume the worst about other posters' motives, and project onto them the views that we don't want held about our pet software's developers/management/users.

Black__Days posted at 10:59AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236380

So, Daz Studio 4.9 is going to suggest products to you, based one some criteria, as you use it. One of two things must therefore be true: either Daz Studio maintains a constant connection to the content server(s), which will eat up your bandwidth; or it maintains a massive, ever-expanding database file of all products on the content servers, and constantly searches it, and therefore adds to processor load and eats up disk space. Also, if the database option is how it works (which is honestly more likely, since it would just use the metadata already in place and be cheaper for Daz besides due to bandwidth costs and server load associated with constant searches from the client), how much do you want to bet it will one day expand to include at least one (likely all) of the marketing images on each product's storefront page? Thousands and thousands of images passively stored on your HDD, updated every time a PA makes a change to their storefront images...

This database file is going to be freaking huge.

Honestly, the whole idea sounds like a bad one to me. Sure, it'll mean more sales for them in the short run and all that. But honestly, if it's going to eat resources like it seems like it will eventually, it might as well have something like Clippy from Word 98 pop up everytime you add content to your scene: "I see you added a Victoria 7 character to your scene. Would you like to check out the new panties for her that just became available?"

The way the feature is described in the above isn't really how it works, it's easy to disable and works more by category selection. So if you select hair and you can't find one suitable in your own library for your project, you can select to see the suggestions and it will present you with ones you don't own from the Daz Store based on popularity and other factors.

Clippy was such a useful companion though wasn't he. lol

Black__Days posted at 11:12AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236382

I think we should all assume the worst about other posters' motives, and project onto them the views that we don't want held about our pet software's developers/management/users.

The thing is Black, this isn't just someone saying something once, it's been said over and over again in a number of forums. Like saying it again and again will eventually convince people it has more fact than it does. All I'm saying is that if someone is going to state DAZ3D is owned by a Japanese Telecommunications giant then they need to back it with proof more significant than an icon on that Japanese businesses portfolio page. If they can't produce more solid proof of it than maybe they should just stop stating it as some kind of fact. It begins to come across like the very reason it's being said is to just lay down some flamebait.

It begins to come across like the very reason it's being said is to just lay down some flamebait.

Even if that's true, we don't have to take the bait.

maxgrafix posted at 11:23AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236358

Razor42 posted at 8:15PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236078

"Regarding DRM. It's been tried, tested and has failed where music and video content is concerned so I can't see it working for DAZ. I'll give it a week or two before the hackers and crackers reverse engineer the files and post them online."

Really? well it should be no issue to name a movie or music or game online supplier that uses no form of DRM then right?

I never stated that DRM isn't used, just that it's been a failure because it's been broken and removed from content. Not just by crackers but by everyday users. But don't just take my word for it, a simple internet search is all you have to do.

How long would it take the Hackers and crackers to get onto your system if they wanted? Do you take any precautions on your own system or posessions to make it more difficult for theft if it was attempted.

You speak as if I was born yesterday. You don't know me or my abilities where PC hardware / software is concerned so why speculate? And we aren't talking about hacking a website server to steal content, we're takling about DRM protected software that is downloaded

Why should Daz3D not do the same. If reasonable measure can be taken to make theft more difficult why should they not be taken?

I didn't say they shouldn't do the same, did I? I stated I think it's a waste of time as it's already been removed from legally obtained music and movies. So if it can be removed from music and movies it can be removed from DAZ content, can't it?

---

IMO DRM isn't a Works great 100% of the time or Total Fail 0% never works ever. it has varying levels of effectiveness against varying levels of attack.

Look at modern software I would have to say this is where DRM is still pretty much a majority case and to a degree fairly effective. Would your advice be to Adobe that DRM is useless just put your software out there with no serial number, no protection, in a zip file which is easily transferred or copied by anyone. After all sooner or later it will be cracked and pirated anyway, as DRM is not gonna protect it forever, if at all?

Really from your post it seems like you're saying yes they should try to protect, but trying to protect really is a waste of time and quite pointless. Shouldn't it be "no, dont do it as it will fail" or "yes you should give it go, as it's worth the attempt and some security is better than none"? Anyways...

Razor42 posted at 7:26PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236381

Again, this is just not true, Investors don't run companies unless ,individually, they hold a majority of the companys equity. Companies are ran by a managements team and report to their investors.

That's quibbling; the stakeholders collectively own the company, and the board is chosen by the investors. They then hire the managers

I bear no malice towards DAZ; I'm a long-time PC Member who has used Studio from version 1.8 and continue to use it when it is the best tool for the job at hand.

Your comment actually is the point I was trying to make (in DAZ' defence, if you will) that keeps getting buried in minutae; DAZ is no longer the cozy art company run by Dan and Chris, which it really was when I first got into it; it is a business now run purely for the bottom line, as their investors are in it to sell high at some point, so people shouldn't feel puzzled or betrayed when they don't act like the"'Old DAZ"; it's just business...

EDIT; Forgot my source; Mark Solon is or was with HWY 21, which seems to be inactive. It's really difficult to determine stakes of private companies, as they are not required to report them, as publicly traded companies are, so apparently my list of current investors is incomplete, but NTT Docomo is certainly one of them. I apologize if anyone bought stock in NTT on the basis if my statements...

https://angel.co/daz3d

WandW posted at 7:45PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236392

Razor42 posted at 7:26PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236381

Again, this is just not true, Investors don't run companies unless ,individually, they hold a majority of the companys equity. Companies are ran by a managements team and report to their investors.

That's quibbling; the stakeholders collectively own the company, and the board is chosen by the investors. They then hire the managers

I bear no malice towards DAZ; I'm a long-time PC Member who has used Studio from version 1.8 and continue to use it when it is the best tool for the job at hand.

Your comment actually is the point I was trying to make (in DAZ' defence, if you will) that keeps getting buried in minutae; DAZ is no longer the cozy art company run by Dan and Chris, which it really was when I first got into it; it is a business now run purely for the bottom line, as their investors are in it to sell high at some point, so people shouldn't feel puzzled or betrayed when they don't act like the"'Old DAZ"; it's just business...

And your statement is very incorrect. Look at the tech and the figures available now comparied to theose "old daz" days. Genesis 3, Iray integration, content tools that are available for free and work a lot better than some paid for solutions. You can't say "DAZ Soon" anymore with all the content that comes out these days. If they were so concerned about the bottom line, they would just give you minimum tech and moderate bug fixes and charge you $200 for an upgrade every two years.

Also I can also tell you that you don't know what you're talking about as far as them not being a cozy company. I've been invited out there and visited with the staff (besides getting my eat and drink on ;) )... from the way their office is laid out and the way they interact allows for collaboration between the staff and get the products that you see popping up in the major storefronts. You don't get the type of innovation from companies if all they're thinking of just dollars and you wouldn't have the morale that I've seen there... which on the downlow is more than there was under the old management.

So you really should stop implying things that you know nothing of, seriously. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

WandW posted at 11:46AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236392

Razor42 posted at 7:26PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236381

Again, this is just not true, Investors don't run companies unless ,individually, they hold a majority of the companys equity. Companies are ran by a managements team and report to their investors.

That's quibbling; the stakeholders collectively own the company, and the board is chosen by the investors. They then hire the managers

I bear no malice towards DAZ; I'm a long-time PC Member who has used Studio from version 1.8 and continue to use it when it is the best tool for the job at hand.

Your comment actually is the point I was trying to make (in DAZ' defence, if you will) that keeps getting buried in minutae; DAZ is no longer the cozy art company run by Dan and Chris, which it really was when I first got into it; it is a business now run purely for the bottom line, as their investors are in it to sell high at some point, so people shouldn't feel puzzled or betrayed when they don't act like the"'Old DAZ"; it's just business...

<---- Head->desk

No offence WandW, but it seems like you're trying to paint Daz3D as some kind of faceless suited men with Fat Bankers on their back cracking whips. "Yelling Damn the customers bring me my money!!!!" ''Evil lol''

A lot of it is the context you use to make a point however benevolent the intent may be. I mean like what you just posted above, look at the connotations associated.

" DAZ is no longer the cozy art company " Seems to infer the management of Daz3D don't care about art.

" it is a business now run purely for the bottom line" Seems to infer that Daz3D only care about money & not about DS, it's customers or its PA's.

" as their investors are in it to sell high at some point " Indicates the appearance of volatility, Daz could be sold any day to anyone, be nervous everyone.

" it's just business " See faceless suited men analogy above

I guess that's what rattles my cage, your intentions become murky to myself because a lot of the language used seems to be double barbed.

Male_M3dia posted at 12:00PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236394

WandW posted at 7:45PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236392

Razor42 posted at 7:26PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236381

Again, this is just not true, Investors don't run companies unless ,individually, they hold a majority of the companys equity. Companies are ran by a managements team and report to their investors.

That's quibbling; the stakeholders collectively own the company, and the board is chosen by the investors. They then hire the managers

I bear no malice towards DAZ; I'm a long-time PC Member who has used Studio from version 1.8 and continue to use it when it is the best tool for the job at hand.

Your comment actually is the point I was trying to make (in DAZ' defence, if you will) that keeps getting buried in minutae; DAZ is no longer the cozy art company run by Dan and Chris, which it really was when I first got into it; it is a business now run purely for the bottom line, as their investors are in it to sell high at some point, so people shouldn't feel puzzled or betrayed when they don't act like the"'Old DAZ"; it's just business...

And your statement is very incorrect. Look at the tech and the figures available now comparied to theose "old daz" days. Genesis 3, Iray integration, content tools that are available for free and work a lot better than some paid for solutions. You can't say "DAZ Soon" anymore with all the content that comes out these days. If they were so concerned about the bottom line, they would just give you minimum tech and moderate bug fixes and charge you $200 for an upgrade every two years.

Also I can also tell you that you don't know what you're talking about as far as them not being a cozy company. I've been invited out there and visited with the staff (besides getting my eat and drink on ;) )... from the way their office is laid out and the way they interact allows for collaboration between the staff and get the products that you see popping up in the major storefronts. You don't get the type of innovation from companies if all they're thinking of just dollars and you wouldn't have the morale that I've seen there... which on the downlow is more than there was under the old management.

So you really should stop implying things that you know nothing of, seriously. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

100% Agree, this has also been my experience.

Male_M3dia posted at 7:57PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236394

So you really should stop implying things that you know nothing of, seriously. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I'm speaking as a hobbyist customer, Terry. Apparently that's not a viewpoint you can relate to. DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997. As far as the topic, it has 'changes' in the title...

Razor42 posted at 8:02PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236395

I guess that's what rattles my cage, your intentions become murky to myself because a lot of the language used seems to be double barbed.

Nothing evil about business; some folks seem to regard DAZ (or Poser) as some sort of old friend, and they seem hurt when they don't do what they expect. I'm trying to put a little bit of perspective out there; nothing more...

WandW posted at 12:04PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236397

Male_M3dia posted at 7:57PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236394

So you really should stop implying things that you know nothing of, seriously. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I'm speaking as a hobbyist customer, Terry. Apparently that's not a viewpoint you can relate to. DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997. As far as the topic, it has 'changes' in the title...

Again with a massive negative slant... "DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997" You mean In your own opinion right? As to me i have had the opposite experience and couldn't disagree more. And it's certainly not certain.

Razor42 posted at 8:07PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236399

WandW posted at 12:04PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236397

Male_M3dia posted at 7:57PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236394

So you really should stop implying things that you know nothing of, seriously. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I'm speaking as a hobbyist customer, Terry. Apparently that's not a viewpoint you can relate to. DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997. As far as the topic, it has 'changes' in the title...

Again with a massive negative slant... "DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997" You mean In your own opinion right? As to me i have had the opposite experience and couldn't disagree more. And it's certainly not certain.

Of course it's my opinion. Don't you have something better to do? I certainly do...

Razor42 posted at 8:07PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236399

WandW posted at 12:04PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236397

Male_M3dia posted at 7:57PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236394

So you really should stop implying things that you know nothing of, seriously. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I'm speaking as a hobbyist customer, Terry. Apparently that's not a viewpoint you can relate to. DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997. As far as the topic, it has 'changes' in the title...

Again with a massive negative slant... "DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997" You mean In your own opinion right? As to me i have had the opposite experience and couldn't disagree more. And it's certainly not certain.

Definitely opinion. This is my hobby too that I happen to make a little money off of. What I can do now, especially with the male figures, is so much more than what I could do years ago; and you don't get that from a company that just counts dollars, period.

WandW posted at 8:11PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236400

Razor42 posted at 8:07PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236399

WandW posted at 12:04PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236397

Male_M3dia posted at 7:57PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236394

So you really should stop implying things that you know nothing of, seriously. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I'm speaking as a hobbyist customer, Terry. Apparently that's not a viewpoint you can relate to. DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997. As far as the topic, it has 'changes' in the title...

Again with a massive negative slant... "DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997" You mean In your own opinion right? As to me i have had the opposite experience and couldn't disagree more. And it's certainly not certain.

Of course it's my opinion. Don't you have something better to do? I certainly do...

LOL, lose the argument and the mud kicking starts...

Maybe you're just not as fun as you were in 1997 :P

I don't want this to sound elitist, but I thought I would describe my recent experiences to show why I am concerned...

My wife and I just went on a fairly long vacation last month. It involved flying across the country. Then boarding a cruise ship for over a week. Before getting to Hawaii and spending a week and a half there.

We spent over a year saving up for it and planning it out. I should add that I am a horrible flier. I hate flying. Absolutely despise it. I have incredibly bad luck on almost all my flights. Just strange things happen that never seem to happen to other people...

Anyway, as a build up to this I invested in a new laptop. Tried to get all my software ready. Spent weeks doing back ups and etc. etc.

We get on the plane. The first thing I discover is my new laptop tries to pull too much power from the plane's outlets. So I am working on a timer for how long the battery will last. Already a little stressed and trying to distract myself, I fire up Civilization to play. Guess what? Doesn't work. It wants an internet connection because I haven't run it recently. Grumbling, I decide to try Beyond Earth. Guess what? Doesn't work. I never ran it before. It wants to get online first too. Then I find that Windows update busted my headphone connection, so the only thing that works is the onboard speakers. So no watching a video or listening to music.

The ship left from Vancouver but we flew into Seattle first. So the morning that we are heading "up north." I update everything I can while I still have an internet connection. Once I cross the border I know I am going to have issues getting a connection.

We get to Vancouver. I decide to try and work on a few things while I have some down time. Guess what I didn't update? Photoshop CC. It suddenly has decided that I am not me. And wants me to log into the internet. I grumble and move on. My solace is that I already prepaid for unlimited internet access on the ship. So in about six hours I can fix this.

We get on the ship. Every time I use Photoshop it wants to log in and prove I am me. Reality 4.1 also insists on re-registering every time I start it. But I have unlimited internet access, so it's just an annoyance now, not a game stopper.

Until the ship starts passing through dead zones in the satellite coverage. Go figure. They don't provide internet coverage across the entire Pacific. So dead in the water, literally, intermittently across the Pacific.

I guess this would be a worst case situation. It wasn't all bad. It didn't ruin anything. But it was annoying. And didn't have to happen.

Razor42 posted at 8:14PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236404

Maybe you're just not as fun as you were in 1997 :P

Apparently not! :lol:

Razor42 posted at 1:13AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236391

---

_IMO DRM isn't a Works great 100% of the time or Total Fail 0% never works ever. it has varying levels of effectiveness against varying levels of attack. _

Please explain in what way DRM has certain levels of effectiveness once stripped from a digital product?

Look at modern software I would have to say this is where DRM is still pretty much a majority case and to a degree fairly effective.

The amount of media including movies, music, games and software available on the internet suggests you're 100% wrong

Would your advice be to Adobe that DRM is useless just put your software out there with no serial number, no protection, in a zip file which is easily transferred or copied by anyone. After all sooner or later it will be cracked and pirated anyway, as DRM is not gonna protect it forever, if at all?

Now you're just clutching at straws. The fact that software is still being cracked suggests whatever protection the media has applied to it can be reversed. Perhaps a new approach is required instead of flogging a dead horse that is DRM IMO

Really from your post it seems like you're saying yes they should try to protect, but trying to protect really is a waste of time and quite pointless. Shouldn't it be "no, dont do it as it will fail" or "yes you should give it go, as it's worth the attempt and some security is better than none"? Anyways...

See my reply above. You've basically made the same argument twice

Here's my two cents worth about the DRM issue. DRM isn't supposed to be completely invulnerable (or at least smart developers look at it that way), because that's impossible. It's supposed to be good enough that it takes a while to break, and thus allows the initial "hot property" sales to be made, and maybe be onerous enough to disable or strip out that the average user won't be able to do it, or might just not have the patience to bother, thus allowing sales to those that pirate when piracy is as convenient as buying.

No system can be invented by humans that other humans are not capable of breaking or reverse-engineering. It's just a question of whether or not doing so is worth the effort involved, at least in the case of people that don't break such systems because doing so is something they enjoy. Those people will always find a way.

maxgrafix posted at 2:10PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236411

Razor42 posted at 1:13AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236391

---

_IMO DRM isn't a Works great 100% of the time or Total Fail 0% never works ever. it has varying levels of effectiveness against varying levels of attack. _

Please explain in what way DRM has certain levels of effectiveness once stripped from a digital product?

Look at modern software I would have to say this is where DRM is still pretty much a majority case and to a degree fairly effective.

The amount of media including movies, music, games and software available on the internet suggests you're 100% wrong

Would your advice be to Adobe that DRM is useless just put your software out there with no serial number, no protection, in a zip file which is easily transferred or copied by anyone. After all sooner or later it will be cracked and pirated anyway, as DRM is not gonna protect it forever, if at all?

Now you're just clutching at straws. The fact that software is still being cracked suggests whatever protection the media has applied to it can be reversed. Perhaps a new approach is required instead of flogging a dead horse that is DRM IMO

Really from your post it seems like you're saying yes they should try to protect, but trying to protect really is a waste of time and quite pointless. Shouldn't it be "no, dont do it as it will fail" or "yes you should give it go, as it's worth the attempt and some security is better than none"? Anyways...

See my reply above. You've basically made the same argument twice

This all adds up to, don't try as it can't inevitably be stopped? Unfortunately as a business this is a pretty flimsy option and I definitely wouldn't be putting you on the payroll for advice in this area. I'm having trouble discerning your actual point in all of this other than what I just stated, which is doing nothing, is better than something/anything.

I think Black__Days just pretty clearly explained above how DRM can be effective if not %100 ironclad guarantee forever of contents security. No one is talking about locking a file up for ever, I'm not sure anyone even thinks this is currently possible.

Why make laws if people will only break them? How effective is a law if it is broken?

The one point you have made abundantly clear is YOU DON"T LIKE DRM.

Razor42 posted at 10:18PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236420

The one point you have made abundantly clear is YOU DON"T LIKE DRM.

And even if that was the ONLY point he was trying to make, it would still be a valid one. I don't fault DAZ and the content creators for wanting to protect their work, but even if the process IS as transparent as DAZ claims it will be (and that's still a big IF -- after that slow-motion train wreck of a store change-over, I'm a little underwhelmed by DAZ's technical capabilities), the very concept of DRM still assumes that the customer is a thief or at least a potential thief, and worse, the customer is expected to pay for the privilege of being treated as one -- that alone is reason enough for me and for many others to oppose it, regardless of how DRM may actually affect our use of any encrypted content (if at all). The products at DAZ are cool, but not cool enough to warrant putting up with that BS.

I'm not upgrading beyond DS4.8, and in fact, I've already scrubbed DS from my machine and I'm in the middle of a Poser content reinstall. DAZ and the content creators who do business through them (even the ones with stores here at Renderosity: Ironman13, DM, Zev0, etc.) won't see another dime from me as long as a single piece of content remains encrypted at DAZ (and I've spent ~$400 a month there for the last several years) -- in fact, unless there's another change at the very top, it's more than likely that I'll never do business with DAZ again, that's how much I hate DRM.

Morpheon posted at 6:52PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236438

I don't fault DAZ and the content creators for wanting to protect their work

it's more than likely that I'll never do business with DAZ again

Apparently you do

Fair enough, but doesn't the latest version of Poser include DRM?

Hey, whatever keeps you rendering ;)

Razor42 posted at 8:58AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236440

Fair enough, but doesn't the latest version of Poser include DRM?

It contains a periodic phone home "feature" to keep it activated. It is a different from DAZ DRM and potentially even more dangerous (SMSI goes down, there are no more authentication servers around, in 6 months Poser copies become bricked). The only good DRM is a dead DRM.

Back to the development of a Cycles shaders library for humanoid characters aka "dropping it" ;-)

chaecuna posted at 7:08PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236441

Razor42 posted at 8:58AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236440

Fair enough, but doesn't the latest version of Poser include DRM?

It contains a periodic phone home "feature" to keep it activated. It is a different from DAZ DRM and potentially even more dangerous (SMSI goes down, there are no more authentication servers around, in 6 months Poser copies become bricked). The only good DRM is a dead DRM.

Back to the development of a Cycles shaders library for humanoid characters aka "dropping it" ;-)

I find it a little humorous how outspoken some people are about their hate of DRM. But continue to use plenty of other things that feature a form of DRM, and in a lot of cases a lot more invasive forms.

No need to drop it, we just aren't meant to be discussing how SM is on the verge of bankruptcy as it's OT. But DRM is definitely on topic here so feel free to vent.

Disclaimer: All venting must fall within the TOS of the forum or risk the wrath of a Mod ;)

Razor42 posted at 11:00PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236440

Fair enough, but doesn't the latest version of Poser include DRM? (EDIT: I see you only referred to content)

But hey, whatever keeps you rendering ;)

Actually there in no encrypted only content at Daz3D at the moment either...

Your second point first: you're right, there isn't any encrypted content at DAZ 3D currently, but that will change, and likely as soon as DAZ can make it. According to DAZ_Rawb and others, anything that passes through DAZ Connect will have key files encrypted, even the older pre-DRM content. The DAZ moderators keep saying that the ZIPs and downloads via DIM will remain intact, but they also quickly add that they can't make any promises about future developments -- which is a rather obvious fudge; it also requires a lot of trust on the customer's part that, personally, I don't think DAZ deserves. I think they'll s***-can the ZIPs and DIM and drive everyone to use DAZ Connect as quickly as possible.

As to your first point, the only reference to DRM within Poser that I can find is the fact that the software may know whether or not it's an illegal copy, and either shut itself down and/or dial home to Smith Micro to report the theft, which is pretty typical software security. Software serial keys are about as universal and unintrusive as you can get, and if you're using a pirated copy of Poser, Max, Photoshop, or whatever, you're a dirt-bag and too damn bad for you if it locks you out or calls the IP cops on you. I've personally been locked out of legally-purchased software a time or two, so I have first-hand experience that it does occur accidentally.

The difference with most programs is that any protection is APPLICATION-BASED, not CONTENT-BASED, as it will be with DS 4.9+. If my copy of 3ds Max suddenly decides that I'm not authorized to run the program, I can still open my files (assuming they're in the proper format, of course) in Maya or Lightwave or Blender; if my copy of Photoshop suddenly decides that I'm a pirate, I can still access my content via GIMP or CorelDRAW or whatever 2D paint program supports Photoshop protocols. But if DS4.9+ decides that I'm not an authorized user, I'm up S*** Creek, because the CONTENT will be encrypted, and no other application will have the means to access that content.

And if the content is encrypted, you don't own it and you don't control it -- you're at the mercy of whoever did the encrypting (in this case, DAZ). Doesn't matter if it's movies, music, books, games, or 3D assets -- I'm not paying good money to put myself in that position.

Razor42 posted at 11:31PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236440

Morpheon posted at 6:52PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236438

I don't fault DAZ and the content creators for wanting to protect their work

it's more than likely that I'll never do business with DAZ again

Apparently you do

Not faulting them -- they're in the right to do this. And I'm just as in the right to walk away with my dollars and to encourage others to do the same.

Morpheon posted at 7:35PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236445

Razor42 posted at 11:00PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236440

Fair enough, but doesn't the latest version of Poser include DRM? (EDIT: I see you only referred to content)

But hey, whatever keeps you rendering ;)

Actually there in no encrypted only content at Daz3D at the moment either...

Your second point first: you're right, there isn't any encrypted content at DAZ 3D currently, but that will change, and likely as soon as DAZ can make it. According to DAZ_Rawb and others, anything that passes through DAZ Connect will have key files encrypted, even the older pre-DRM content. The DAZ moderators keep saying that the ZIPs and downloads via DIM will remain intact, but they also quickly add that they can't make any promises about future developments -- which is a rather obvious fudge; it also requires a lot of trust on the customer's part that, personally, I don't think DAZ deserves. I think they'll s***-can the ZIPs and DIM and drive everyone to use DAZ Connect as quickly as possible.

As to your first point, the only reference to DRM within Poser that I can find is the fact that the software may know whether or not it's an illegal copy, and either shut itself down and/or dial home to Smith Micro to report the theft, which is pretty typical software security. Software serial keys are about as universal and unintrusive as you can get, and if you're using a pirated copy of Poser, Max, Photoshop, or whatever, you're a dirt-bag and too damn bad for you if it locks you out or calls the IP cops on you. I've personally been locked out of legally-purchased software a time or two, so I have first-hand experience that it does occur accidentally.

The difference with most programs is that any protection is APPLICATION-BASED, not CONTENT-BASED, as it will be with DS 4.9+. If my copy of 3ds Max suddenly decides that I'm not authorized to run the program, I can still open my files (assuming they're in the proper format, of course) in Maya or Lightwave or Blender; if my copy of Photoshop suddenly decides that I'm a pirate, I can still access my content via GIMP or CorelDRAW or whatever 2D paint program supports Photoshop protocols. But if DS4.9+ decides that I'm not an authorized user, I'm up S*** Creek, because the CONTENT will be encrypted, and no other application will have the means to access that content.

And if the content is encrypted, you don't own it and you don't control it -- you're at the mercy of whoever did the encrypting (in this case, DAZ). Doesn't matter if it's movies, music, books, games, or 3D assets -- I'm not paying good money to put myself in that position.

Ok forgive me here if this seems a little slow on my behalf. But actually dial home software is considered one of the most invasive DRM forms there is. Just ask Microsoft. You need an internet connection, if the dial home server goes offline either intermittently or permanently you need to find another app that supports your content and in a lot of cases that isn't possible or you are forced wait patiently for the servers to come back up . It's a continual process which is more likely to cause workflow interruption if there are any system issues either locally or with the servers. And treats every user like a criminal until the dial home correlates the license which some seem to rather dislike.

There's also a big contradiction some people are saying the encryption won't stop pirates in cracking the encryption for a few heart beats. Yet if in the future under worst case scenario's people will be locked out of their content. I'm not sure how the two stand side by side. But surely there is a solution to the second issue in the first? (Talking disaster management here)

Also a slight misunderstanding the Daz Content encryption on products only encrypts the DS files (.duf .dsf .dat etc) so things like textures (jpgs) are not encrypted and you're free to use them in other apps even with the DC encryption enabled. So if Daz3D goes away you will only be able to use the encrypted content in the latest build of DS that was available or the unencrypted parts of the content in any app that supports them (Basically any non DS specific file). The biggest issue if Daz goes away is if you haven't downloaded it you could lose it. But that exists with every brokerage I think.

IF SM goes bye-bye you've got a 6 month window at most till your program is bricked in my understanding so it would seem the risk to you is much higher in this form of DRM implementation.

Morpheon posted at 7:54PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236446

Razor42 posted at 11:31PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236440

Morpheon posted at 6:52PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236438

I don't fault DAZ and the content creators for wanting to protect their work

it's more than likely that I'll never do business with DAZ again

Apparently you do

Not faulting them -- they're in the right to do this. And I'm just as in the right to walk away with my dollars and to encourage others to do the same.

Fair enough I'm not faulting you for that, I'm just going to put you on ignore from now on. (JOKING)