I agree with CB - there should be a STANDARD user license template for the store items, and there should HAVE TO BE a statement WITH THE THUMBNAIL stating "EXTRA RESTRICTIONS IN LICENSE" - with a link to a copy of the actual text, so that the purchaser knows, without ANY doubt, BEFORE the purchase, exactly what NON-standard restrictions are imposed. Anything else is simply UNFAIR. ********* STEFY - I have never bought any of your products, but I was thinking of buying some. Now, FORGET IT, I will NEVER buy anything from you, under any circumstances whatsoever, Period!

This is all rather pointless without some input from both the Renderosity admins and/or Stefy herself, so this is the last post I'm going to make until that happens. Otherwise, we're all just talking to ourselves. Here is how things happened from my view. 1) Stefy posts her two new texture packages in the store for sale, along with a clearly worded addendum to the license about the same username which bought the texture being the poster of any images in the gallery. She also requires credit on any gallery image using it. 2) I post a thread asking her to reconsider the license changes. At no point did I say she had no right to do them; what I said was that I didn't see how requiring credit on all images would stop warezers, and that I and possibly others would be put off from buying Stefy's new textures with such conditions attached. 3) Stefy posted, saying that it was all a misunderstanding and that she would remove the conditions. She added that the new license restrictions were brought about by warezers. She didn't address the "credit in the gallery" issue at all. However, in the descriptions of "Yuma" and "Yazoo&Yoda" in the store, there was now a paragraph saying that those buyers who had already purchased the packs should delete the two extra license requirements, as they were "NO MORE VALID!!" 4) About twenty-four hours after posting this, Stefy sent her IMs to Blackhearted. She also posted a rude message under his image in the gallery. Both of the issues she was confronting him over were the same as the new license requirements that she had already publically agreed to withdraw from her new textures. Worse, both issues were about ASIA, a texture which never had any such requirements in the license. My conclusions from this were that Stefy publically agreed to remove the username and credit restrictions from her products after a thread was started saying the restrictions would hurt her sales, and then she proceeded to try to enforce them anyway. Worse, she appears intent on enforcing them not just for the two new texture packs, but also on her previous works. I was more than willing to believe the initial problem was a simple misunderstanding or a frustrated reaction to warezers (although, for the thousandth time, this doesn't explain the "giving credit" clause, which I personally find far more disturbing than the username clause.) However, Stefy's actions flatly contradict both what she wrote about removing the license restrictions and the change she made in her item descriptions in the store. This is why I think that Gabriel (Blackhearted) wasn't wrong in posting her IMs, and why I think this is not a discussion that would have been better kept in private. Stefy appears to be trying to have her cake and eat it, too; take out the license addendums that would cut down on her sales and then enforce those same license addendums on unwitting buyers. I won't even go into how she tried to enforce them, by threatening banning etc if someone didn't buy her textures. I nearly bought both "Yuma" and "Yazoo&Yoda" based on Stefy's word about removing the license requirements, which I thought was good. Since it has turned out that she has not kept her word and instead actively harasses purchasers of her work who don't do as she wants, this needed to be made clear to anyone considering buying her textures. It has been. If there's someone out there who thinks that "Yuma" and "Yazoo&Yoda" are worth the hassle, then more power to them. And if we're going to address the subject of credit, ASIA is a fine texture (though I will say that I spent more than two hours in Photoshop adjusting her excessive yellowness.) But there would be no ASIA if there was not Victoria. There would be no Victoria without Posette. There would be no Posette without those sad lumpy little mannequin people of Poser 1 and 2. Each of them wouldn't have existed without a 20-plus person programming team, a corporation, investors in that corporation, bondholders, etc. Does Steve Cooper demand credit on every Poser render posted? Why is StefyZZ's contribution more important than his, or Larry Weinberg's, or Seth Ahrens or Jinhua Shen? Art isn't a cookbook; take Vicky, add Asia, put in some Anton Kisiel hair and a light set by azl and presto, you have a gorgeous image. We have all seen pictures created using that theory and they were nothing special. But there are marvelous images that are genuinely artistic, that are much more than the sum of their store or freestuff parts. Some, like Picky's work, are so altered from their original Poser-render state that they are virtually brand-new and any Poser elements that went into them are almost irrelevant. Stefy's demand for perpetual credit offended me because it seemed to imply that in her mind if your picture was any good, it was because you used Asia ("my Asia", in her own words.) Therefore, any merit in your image rightfully belongs to her. This completely discounts the creativity and skill of the artist, her customer. And creativity is the reason why we are all supposedly here in the first place, right? There. I'm done.

This is getting totally out of hand. I was just talking on the phone to a friend who was surfing the net for goodies last nite, and found a site (no, I don't know which one it was) where the terms of use stated that full credit for any item used had to be given ON THE IMAGE itself if posted anywhere on the net at any time. ON THE IMAGE ITSELF??? Not even in accompanying text? Good f*****ing Grief! Needless to say, my friend didn't get anything at whatever site that was, and will NEVER go back there for any purpose whatsoever!

Something interesting... Stefy went full out guns on Blackhearted when she saw the pic that he did with Asia in it. Okay, weve been down this road, but heres the kicker. Ive been cruising through the gallery, and dammit, wouldnt you know, even the same day that she went after Blackhearted, theres a ton of images that have Asia in it, with no credit references. Something odd to get the gears churning once again...

Steffyzz has removed her products from renderosity.

{Hey CB, "and if the vendor wishes to alter these terms, they MUST do so in an attacked text file" attacked text file, couldn't have said it better myself. :) } ROFL! SOmetimes the typo makes more sense than the correct message... ;-)

I both buy and sell here at Renderosity. My dad makes most of my purchases using his credit card and an account he made to buy me things. I worry that this same thing could happen to me. Since the item would be purchased under his username and displayed in my work. I really don't want to be attacked by people saying I have stolen their product. Now for the vendor side of me, I would never make a stipulation saying that an artist had to give me credit for using one of my items in their work that they paid good money for. As many here have said once the product is bought it can be used any way the artist wants. I would just be happy to see it being used.

ok...well now that I'm caught up...sort of (I couldn't read this whole thread...lol) I now need to know what another good texture would be to buy. I am looking for a very high-res texture for either posette or vicky. I was looking into asia, but saw it was removed and didn't know why (hence my finding this thread) Can anyone let me know of another good texture they like. Thanks Dragontales

dragontales - if you can hang on for a bit i was planning on posting some texture comparisons in the poser forum. then you can judge for yourself.

Dragontales, I highly recommend the characters&textures of Handspan Studios...Ingrid does beautiful work. I have her "celtic man" for the p4 male (now out of the store, pity) 'Sidra' for posette and 'Sasha' for Vicky - heck, when I saw DAZ was running that end of summer sale and I could get vicky at 30% off, the first thing I thought was, "oh cool, and then I can get Sasha!!!!" because I'd been eyeing her ever since I got Sidra. Ingrid is very friendly and professional; my download of one of the characters kept getting screwed up (man, am I glad I have a cable modem now) and she had to send me the file twice direct. She was very paitent and kind. Ralaci also has some nice textures. That's just two of the vendors I have personal experiance with. I have had nothing but good experiances in the Renderosity store, and I'm sorry that a bad apple is spoiling the whole bin. For that reason, I hope that Russell and Tim will speak out soon and clarify where Renderosity stands on this issue. Other vendors are getting hurt by this.

Audrey & Caitlin are my favorite VixTextures (Love those freckles!) - I bought the Yoda-Yhatever pkg Fri nite & don't like it nearly as much (unless I use subdued lighting, the skin just looks dry & scaly in my renders). BTW Goldfire; I just looked at "Sasha", & put her in my shopping cart - Nice work, there!

As a person here who sells pretty much everything I make, my customers mean the world to me. I have developed extremely close friendships now with quite a few of them, and feel warmth in my heart toward all of them, and loyalty to their needs over my own needs, if at all possible. So to me this situation seems so strange, and extreme. I personally cannot imagine I would have the right to be so vain as to demand that I be given credit in your renders. You gave me credit when you pulled out your credit-cards ;p I do not keep a master list of all my customers (just flat out too lazy), let alone think to try to track down things that have my work in it, and see if this or that person purchased. The only times I ever take time to verify a purchase is when someone writes me asking for file replacement due to this, that, or the other catastrophe that caused them to lose the file. Most software companies do that though, verify before shipping a replacement. But... when someone thinks to mention my name in the Gallery here, it enables me to locate images I might want to look at to comment on in particular, since I stay so very busy developing that my time for actual real image to image browsing of the gallery is minimal. When someone mentions my name it does always bring a happy smile to my face, and literally gives me a happy thrill that lasts hours and hours. I try to locate all those who do, and thank them personally for mentioning me, and using my work in their images, in the gallery (though I do not get in there as often as I should...and frequently have to do catchup of weeks and weeks).

Mehndi Hi! I have your Ultra-Salon Hair, fm DAZ, & really appreciate your skill & talent. I've bought over a hundred products at the 'Rosity Marketplace, & I have to say that the vast majority of vendors I've had any contact with have been, like you, responsive, concerned, & quick to deal with any problems to my complete satisfaction. I have repeatedly been impressed with the vendors here, as well as the quality of their products. I enjoy doing business at this marketplace more than any other site on the web, as it has more member-friendly features & qualities than any I've seen. I also have to respect the admins of the site for their self-restraint, & the freedom that they allow the discussions on the forums. it's a tricky thing to "gandy-dance" among so many disparate personality types & still foster & nurture such a really extraordinary community as this one. (Ummm, Errrr, Oooops, how did I get back up on my soapbox? guess I'll try & sneak away before I start making sense & someone notices S)

smiles Thanks Leather-Guy :) Glad you enjoy it :) I hope to be coming out with another hair prop fairly soon... totally new look and style never done before for Poser (at least as far as I am aware).... but you know me! Im slower than the seven year itch on development, so just cross your fingers and pray I get it done before we all die of old age! ;p

Pardon me for not attributing specific quotes. I am going with the flow here :)

"What I'd like to see clarified by a Renderosity store administrator is this: Are vendors allowed to set any arbitrary restrictions they like on the use of an item? And can they do this post-sale?"

As far as I know they are. I don't even mind as long as the license is made very, very, very clear before purchase.

"So now I have two products (Asia and Edo) that I paid a fair amount of money for and feel I cannot use because of impositions their creator has placed on me after their purchase."

Well, legally speaking Steffy can't retroactively alter the license unless the license allowed for that tin the first place. What remains to be seen is whether the Renderosity admins would continue to allow a rampant vendor to try and impose additional restrictions through harassment.

"Hard to enjoy them, Poppi, if Stefy continues to post snippy comments on every image using them which doesn't credit her."

I agree... this is the part that is most troublesome - the attempted pressure and blackmail to impose new restrictions.

*"1. my fiancee used this computer as well as i did, and i was teaching her graphic art (photoshop, poser, flash, etc). she made some images. now what if she made them with a marketplace texture or model? has she/we violated the terms of sale? can she not post that image in a gallery here? how many couples are there at renderosity that both post images in the gallery? do they purchase two copies of vicky, two copies of asia, etc?"

"2. then comes an even greyer area. what if my friend, who is also into graphic art, comes over to my apartment. he sits down at my computer, loads up poser, and creates an image?"*

You're fine unless there are some really twisted licenses in your library. You ARE specifically allowed to let others use your software, and especially when they are using it on your machine.

"I read this thread.... Blackhearted posts Stefy's very first IM to him, and if you look and see, she was very kind. All she asked for was the name that he purchased Asia with."

I see the request itself as an attack, especially with the implied accusation. it is even more troublesome coming soon after an affirmation that supposedly Steffy wasn't going to do this. So it might have been worded politely, but it was inherently out of line.

"I KNOW that Stefy isn't on any kind of "witch hunt" here, and if everyone here would put yourself in her shoes, I think you'd see differently. She IS a very talented texture maker, and is only trying to protect her hard work."

I agree with her motives but I am vehemently opposed to her methods. I also agree with the motives of my local police -t hat doesn;t mean I am willing to give up my right to privacy. In my mind it is no more reasonable for Steffy to demand my "real" name than would be for Microsoft to try and force me to sign my real name to every Word document I write.

"Then she could have checked her records, and all would have been good on the homefront."

No, it would have been a dangerous precedent and all would not have been good on the home front.

"I do hope that everyone realizes that all she is trying to do is protect her work."

That doesn't do a thing to justify such draconian strong arm tactics in my mind.

"he just logged in today to see a message saying if he doesn't purchase asia within 48 hours he will be banned from renderosity."

Fortunatly the admins have told us this is not true.

"These bastards are the real reason this got started at all. Really, it's a kind of a shame they took the post down. It was very illuminating and would have made a good counter point to what is going on here."

No, those "bastards" aren't the cause of this any more than criminals are the cause of a cop violating my rights to privacy. The existence of "warez" traders is simply not a justification for such measures. As such, they are not a good enough excuse or "cause".

"All for a good policy debate, but IIRC, I thought the consensus was that republishing IM's is not proper, even in C&D, it being tantamount to publishing private letters without permission. If for no other reason, are these not still original works copyrighted to the author?"

Not generally. In most places in the USA you are perfectly within your rights to republish a letter addressed to you, or to play an answering machine message for anyone you want and so on. This is often used to the advantage of the police as it allows them to listen to conversations on a phoen as long as one party consents to that.

Copyright is not the end all and be all of defining what can be done with information.

When you add in that the IM could be considered abusive or threatening, and certainly of import to the community at large in a issue of current discussion I think it was just fine to post it.

"Steffyzz has removed her products from renderosity."

That is unfortunate. I love Asia and had hoped to pick up her new work once she removed the overly restrictive license. Now however it seems even if that license is/was removed it was still going to be enforced by other means. I think I'll be avoiding her work in the future.

At first I was going to ignore all this as my work output generally goes to clients and not onto Renderosity - what do I care if I get snippy comments int he gallery? Then I realized that nothing would stop her from contacting a client directly and demanding to know where the image came from and causing all sorts of confusion. The world is full of good textures. It's not worth it.

This is one of the reasons we purchase from Daz so much... at least the people at Daz are in the business of professional graphic work and they understand that this is not always about getting on the Renderosity "hot 20".

Of course, some of the vendors here who have expressed that they too understand these issues are vendors we are now looking at with renewed interest :)

First off,thanks for the ideas about where to look for other textures, and yes, I can wait to see the comparison graphics blackhearted. Thanks for spending the time to do that. One thing though, where will it be posted? In the galleries? or the forums? Dragontales

This is a damn shame!For you and steffy.

dragontales - in the poser forum right now.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=86940&Start=1&Artist=ladynimue&ByArtist=Yes

I also received the same IM message that Blackhearted did, shortly after I posted an image to the Poser Gallery (on Sept. 15) using StefyZZs Asia texture. (I also own/purchased Edo)The difference being that I not only gave credit to Stefy but also sent her an IM to let her know that I had posted an image using her Asia texture. To be honest I was very upset when her IM popped up on my screen. (I personally felt my integrity was in questions) I did however IM her right away and let her know that I purchase all items under my REAL name and post under my Nick Name. I also mentioned that I try to give credit to everything that I use that I did not create. (I have gone so far as spend hours online looking for the creator of a texture that did not have a readme file with their zip file so as to give the proper credit). To Stefys defense, she did IM me (after a week, as she was on holiday). She was very kind in her response and went so far as to state that I didnt even need to give her Credit for textures, as any texture that was purchased was mine to do with as I pleased. (I am paraphrasing this but basically that was her response.) She also added that she was sorry if I misunderstood her first IM. Now in my defense I must add that it would have been very easy to cross reference the nick I posted with to my Real Name that I purchased this product with, as my REAL NAME is the same on both if you look it up in the members listing. The problems that Blackhearted has had are, needless to say, very confusing and very upsetting. I can see both sides of the situation being an artist who is very concerned with copyright laws and being a consumer who was accused of using something that she did not pay for. I am saddened that things have come to such an ending that Stefy has pulled her products from the Renderosity Marketplace. I am more saddened that Artists are afraid to show their works in fear of being accused of theft. In the future I feel I must IM everyone before I post an image to let them know that I am using their product and that I did purchase said product under my Real Name. Not sure if it is worth the trouble. Sigh.

Ladynimue, please do not let this one isolated incident discourage you so. Some of us are actually in this as legitimate and professional business people. What I mean by that is that it is not a hobby to us, and therefore we do not sit around hunting down for good or ill those who buy our things (though personally if I manage to locate anyone using my things in a render I do try to make a comment and thank them personally, since I owe them a great deal of gratitude). As business people, we realize we will have the occasional case of warez happen to our goods. It is unfortunate, but it is like shoplifting in retail. It happens. As business people, we realize we are giving up rights to certain things we have as hobbyists when we choose to sell our work, including rights to mention of our name. Good business people rely upon the graciousness and courtesy of our customers to spread the word that our work is good, and we in turn should be giving back graciousness and courtesy to those using our work, since it is after all, in and of itself an endorsement. For me, this is a business. Not a hobby. Not a part time job. It is a full time business, as a professional freelance 3d artisan crafting goods for others to use in their art. I sell "tools". What you do with the tools after you purchase them from me, is your affair generally, so long as you do not redistribute my work in such a way that it impedes upon my ability to make a living :) I hope that when Steffy returns, she will have adopted some of the correct attitude of what it means to sell things as a business person, since her talent is vast and strong and her loss to us all would be a shame.

Ah, Mehndi...You said it all, so well. I think that the lack of professionalism, in this matter, really did hurt feelings. Sadly, the good lord, doesn't always distribute talent and common sense, equally. Thanks for the balm on this thread. Perhaps, now, it can rest.

Leather-guy - no prob. I'm always glad to steer buiness to the 'good guys.' Mehndi, though I have not yet bought any of your products, I have heard very good things about you and would never hesitate to do so if one fitted my needs. Why? Because you, and many of our vendors, understand that even in this 'new' economy good old fashioned customer service is the key. And that satisfied customers are your best advertisement. They do what I just did for Ingrid - recommend you to other people. Dissatisfied customers, on the other hand, are also glad - to tell how lousy you are. On average one dissatisfied customer will mention their unpleseant experiance to ten people. On a site like Renderosity, where we have the forums, the effect is magnified. I'm no longer limited to who I can verbally tell. Everyone who reads the forums sees what I say - positive and negative. It never ceases to amaze me how many sites on the Web, especially sites that are not backed by an existing store or mail order buisness have no concept whatsoever of 'customer service.' A lot of them are defunct now, too.

hello to all from germany :-) My english is not very good, but I have to say something to SteffyZZ/Blackhearted Okay..she could ask him if he had buy the texture.. But by the way...What would be happen, if no one could take a piece of an item to use it on his picture for a gallery or project? I think: Just providing the things I buy- it is the best promotion for seller!! Only to use it on the pc at home..the most people would not pay for it- just for fun and only for pc without to play with it to show it! To show and promote it in any way- I think - is the proud of sellers..Or I am wrong? Thats what I am feeling..because Im working with a texture would be happy, if users would have fun with the things in every way- without asking after all, to use it - or show it! Of course - the right is: not to copy, not to resell the textures etc. But to show it in every way..I think: THAT IS THE REASON for working things, to have fun for both sides: Sellers and Buyers. Have a nice day :-))

I think this whole drama will start a new discussion. Money... How much should one spend on the hobby? Even if I only use things from freestuff. Shouldn't I support the community by buying from the marketplace. (Even to support renderosity itself.) Do the top-contibuters get enough for there work? And if not from where should the mone come? In the first few days after I found renderosity, I got to know the name StefyZZ. Credit given or not, I look at a picture and I think that is the famous asia texture. Unique. (Might you love it or not.) Will this part the community in to those who have a texture and those who doesn't? One or two weeks ago StefyZZ posted an image promoting her new childrens texture. I think it was great. I would post it here, if that would not affect her copyrights. I read some statements on not-buying, not contributing, not-putting-into-freestuff. It seems that it is a discussion that should have been made much earlier. And it's not over. Btw I would like to hear the opinions of other power-sellers cu

Has anyone else noticed that the good Steffy has yet to respond to any of these posts? One would think that she would have wanted to do something that would cleanse her name? Im not sure that this means anything per se, but it is a somewhat telling observation. On the road still, BTW, returning home in two weeks... but with a friends computer at my avail, I couldnt help but stop to look in on all my friends...

Whoa.. Now, this is unbelieveable..I havent read more than to message No.17, so I might be missing some details. I have no comments on it, ooh, yes one, and that is that I support Blackhearted 100%. I cant stand arrogant people, and their pathetic behaviour. (I guess that was about expected from a Greek HAH!) Zrincx.