I posted an image in the poser gallery last night called "Heliotrope (Sun Worshipper)". The following morning I was greeted by this IM as I logged into Renderosity: ----------- Instant Message from StefyZZ: Hello! I'm Stefania Zampini, the creator of the Asia texture that you've used in your last images. Since we have to protect my hard work and my copyright from piracy, and since I don't see your name in the list of my Asia Purchasers, I kindly ask you to tell us how do you get my Product. Thank you. Sincerely, Stefania Zampini. (Sent 10/13 02:58) ----------- I went to my Gallery and found this comment by her under my image: "Excuse me but if you give credit you have to do it completely: The texture of V2 is my Asia. " I replied: "Woah.. EXCUSE ME... someone needs to relax a little. I overlooked mentioning the texture by accident, Stefy. What I find extremely rude and pompous, however, is your instant message coupled with this comment in my gallery. At no time in the past year have you commented on ANY of my images, yet within hours of my posting this one youre here sniffing around and accusing me of not being on your 'list' of Asia purchasers. I value my privacy and anonymity - and nowhere in the license that came with the product do I see that for the rest of my graphics career I am obligated to keep you posted on my current alias. "Excuse me but if you give credit you have to do it completely" - ahem.. this is my personal gallery, and in my image description I will post what I choose. In this case it was an oversight, but in the future if either you or anyone else at renderosity attempts to dictate what I post in MY gallery, then I will either disable comments or take my work elsewhere." and to the IM I replied: ---------- IM response from me: I am Blackhearted, creator of Heliotrope. I understand your concern over your product. But I value my privacy and anonymity - and nowhere in the license that came with the product do I see that for the rest of my graphics career I am obligated to keep you posted on my current alias. Thank you. ----------- Instant Message from StefyZZ: I'm very sorry that you don't want to collaborate, just like warezers always use to do! :( Is for this reason that I assume that you didn't purchase my product. We will take our provision! (Sent 10/13 14:34) ----------- IM response from me: The fact that I purchased a product, which later turned out to have these rediculous strings attached, and the fact that I'm now being called a 'warezer' by the pompous, arrogant creator of this product is insulting to say the least. Only fools 'assume'. How dare you pidgeonhole me in some category based solely on the fact that I refuse to abide by your stupid clause which infinges on MY rights as a consumer and graphic artist. Some people have alternate nicknames, some people just purchase under another name to avoid being email spammed by vendors, and others still just value their anonymity and privacy. You have a lot to learn about customer relations and consumer rights. Go do whatever the hell your 'provision' is, but know that I've spent my last penny at Renderosity. ------------ Instant Message from StefyZZ: The only arrogant here is you. (Sent 10/13 15:14) --------------------------------------- This is complete insanity. Am I obligated to give her credit in each and every one of my works that has one of her textures? And am I obligated to keep forwarding her my new nickname and info every time I decide to change it? What the hell is this? Its the equivalent of going to the Gap, buying a t-shirt, and every time you wear it having to announce "I bought this shirt at the Gap for 29.99". And at the time of purchase and every time you move thereafter you have to provide them with your complete name, current address and visa number for their records. I saw no mention of these rediculous terms at the point of sale - nor are they included in the license.txt or the readme.txt included with the product. Either way, I've pretty much had my fill with the crap I've had to endure here at Renderosity lately. I'm sure a lot of you will be glad to see me go - my opinions havent made me a lot of friends here. But when a site like this, which (believe it or not) is being done a service by its users (and not vice versa) starts taking advantage of that and infringing upon their rights then its time to find a new one. If anyone thinks that I've been undiplomatic or unwise in my replies - thats fine, I never claimed to be a politician. But understand that this type of thing upsets me quite a bit, as it should upset anyone that purchases items from the marketplace. Cheers, Gabriel

I am so sorry that you had to have this unfortunate insident. That is why we allow anyone who uses our freebies or buys from us the right to do what they want with our models, except we do ask that they don't claim it as their work or morph it and resell it to others. You have every right to have an opionion and we would hate to see you go. You are just being honest about how you feel. Try not to let this insident give you a bad taste in your mouth regarding others here, it may not be so that people don't care, I think we all do.

You might have said that yo bought it under the name of "???" ... she is greek and might not understand the word alias but she would understand if you bought the texture under another name. At no point did you say that in plain language. That might have cleared it up some. Just my 2 cents.

I also typically don't give credit to bought things. If someone asks then cool but if I had to list Daz on every one of my props etc it would be silly. Those things that are free I definantely give the courtesy of listing them.

I own a copy of ASIA, I thought Steffy ZZ had relented on those clauses for her new stuff. My .txt file says nothing about giving credit etc. just stick around and I think you'll find most are on your side. and most people like a little excitement. :) at this point i am not ready to blame R'osity, but I think something needs to be done. I for one am fed up of having to keep up with and read endless files saying you can use this and you can't do that. I think that R'osity should champion the use of a single license for both the store and Freestuff.

Excepting of course the items that Sams3D mentioned. Not selling or giving away what you've DL or purchased or change slightly and then sell.

Wow! This is going over the border. I like SteffyZZ's textures but JEEZ!. I probably wont be buying anything else from her. Mite just stick with Daz stuff altogether. Warez is bad but so is paranoia.

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I fear I will live to the day when money buried renderosity. Discussions about copyrighting poses and copying textures and now a witch hunt for possible copyright breakers. I doubt if I could safely buy something here. At least the makers of asia act like children. By the way, a bought texture / prop / whatever is nothing i would give credit too, I have paid for it, that should be enough. I would demand money if I should advertise for that. Maybe that is something what Stefania Zampini should learn.

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Sail out to sea and do new things.
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Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

While I can value the importance of the creator, its this sort of exchange that makes me feel theres no point in mentioning any credits, ever, again, whether bought or freely acquired. Ive not purchased any of Steffys textures, but after this Im truly not sure I ever want to, no matter what the quality.

"I think that R'osity should champion the use of a single license for both the store and Freestuff." I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you there. I for one believe you get what you pay for, and if you're not paying you shouldn't get all the same rights you would get if you payed. I would not put anything else in the free stuff here if we had to use the same license as the store, I know a few people would also quit putting stuff in the free stuff section as well. People who post in freestuff (most of us anyway) wouldn't have a problem with just keeping our stuff on our site and never even mentioning it here, but we do it to be nice. I know Jamball I've had this conversation with you before, so I won't say anymore on it. As for the whole situation with Steffy and the textures, I've been in Gabriel's shoes before. As alot of you might know I regularly change my alias. I just change my alias when I feel it doesn't suit me anymore, or when I feel that my privacy demands it. Awhile back I was accused of being a "warez" person for posting a picture of some stroe characters I bought and not being on "the list". I didn't even realize it was a "crime" to not be on said list but after the attack I got I won't post any of my pictures with stuff I've previously bought from renderosity, and I most likey won't make any new purchases from this store. When I go to Toy-R-Us to buy toys for my son, the woman at the counter always asks for my phone number. I used to give it to them becuase they claim it's so they can contact you incase of a recall. After having moved and (obviously) changing my phone number I decided to get a private number, almost half a year went by with no calls from telemarketers. Then I drove all the way to Toys-R-Us (which is a about 45 min from here due to memphis traffic) bought my son a toy ya couldn't get anywhere else, the woman asked me for my phone number stating that they keep numbers on record incase of recalls I willingly gave it to her. Well the very next day I had 2 telemarketers call! Get this they were trying to sell me 1)Life Insurance for my child 2)A membership to a Childrens Book Club So where do YOU think they got the number??!! Since then I have taken every messure I can to protect my privacy, on the internet and in the "real world" and to basically hear on renderosity that it's a "crime" just pisses me off! Ok I'll quit ranting for now... Cookie

In my opinion the asiatexture is not good. It has problems with eyelid, if the eyes are closed. I will never again buy a texture from SteffyZZ. Oh...The texture is Asia from SteffyZZ Mazak

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I agree with VirtualSite. I dont make nice pictures, so I guess I never have this problem, but what if I would use Asia-skin on a character to make a new Homepage-outfit? Do I have to post her Name (or my name - so she knows me) on the Homepage - I dont want to do this. Also I think this credit-thing is getting a bit to much. I understand that someone is proud if the product is very good, but they sell it!! - I mean this is enough - they get payed for it, companys look at this as it is. Not enough ? But may this is getting in the wrong way - I think she did not understand you right - sometimes the english is confusing to other languages - I have the same problem sometimes, reading it twice and again and again till I understand, sitting here with my little translator, searching for a word that cant be found... (sorry for my english - hope you understand the meaning)

Well then I guess that I should say right now that I am LaurieA, aka Daffy34, aka LAllen, aka Quackpot, etc, etc, etc. Yes, it's me...I'm me. I don't have any SteffyZ textures BTW. And since I changed my nickname I've been worried about this very thing. What if folks who's stuff I bought under Daffy34 DON'T know it's me? It's the very reason I don't put any copyright restrictions on my freestuff. Respectable folks will contact me and ask if it's okay to use my things in something they want to do for profit (and they have). Non-respectable folks will do it anyway. I don't like fighting losing battles. If I tried to keep after folks who would wish to sell something that I gave away for free, I'd never do anything else. I think some other folks here know how exhausting it really is. Laurie

i can sympathise with you - that totally violates your rights as a consumer. im probably never going to buy anything from the store again, and even if i do it will definitely not be from stefyzz. even though stefy's english might not be that good, she knew enough to put those ridiculous conditions on her product in the first place -instinct

Another sad day at R'osity... As some people may know, my work has been used in sold textures here but even if copyright agent did a great job concerning that, I can understand the feeling of Steffy. Texturing ( or anything creative ) is time consuming and when I see the images done with Asia, I think it's one of the best textures seen for Poser ( don't have it Steffy so don't look at your list, I make my own ;) I don't think the privacy is important here. Just reply to her and give her your usual login. I'm sure the problem will be solved quickly this way... And I don't think she will sell your login for spam. no, for me, the problem is credits. When you make freestuff, it's fair from people who downloaded it to credit authors. But when you buy something,you don't have to do it ( but you can :). P-S : Blackhearted, you flamed me about my wishlist for Poser5. Well, already two of my ideas are already used by artists of the community ( especially the Radiosity/Global Illumination trick ), so it looks like they weren't so unreasonable as you thought ;) joelegecko

JOE - I have never 'flamed' anyone here before. I've done more than my fair share of arguing, but I've never made any personal attacks. A flame is a personal attack. As for the Radiosity - you said it yourself, its a 'trick'. True radiosity is quite far away, and if you compare poser to Bryce (which has it) I'm not sure I'd want it. A render that takes 2 minutes in poser will take you 35+ hours in Bryce. I'll take my Poser renderer over tying up my computer and waiting for the results of the render for almost 2 days anytime :) And yes, privacy is whats important here. I'm not going to restate the reasons, theyve already been posted here and in an earlier thread on the same topic. I realise that the warez industry is becoming a growing plague on marketers, but infringing upon the rights of the buyer is not a solution. SAMS3D - thanks, i didnt think anyone cared :) Mazak - the asia textuure has quite a few faults, and I've been aware of them for some time, but I've never complained (like the dark wrinkles around the armpits that always have to be postworked, the yellowish tint, the hairy legs, the eyelids, the fact that when you load it in propack you have to go through the queries and load EVERY single bump map manually, etc). I thought, as a whole, the product was a worthwhile purchase. I've since reconsidered, its caused me more stress than all of the other products ive purchased combined. Asia is a good texture, but its definitely not the best, or the only texture out there. The issue of demanding credit in an artists image is sickening. Not only is it shamelessly asking for free advertising, but it also demeans the artist. The texture is a minor part of an image - definitely not irreplaceable. With MAT files, you can replace a texture in seconds, and there are plenty of more affordable photo-textures out there. A lot of work, and a lot of things go into making an image - pose and lighting being the most important. Whats next? People demanding credit for poses or light sets?

The seller should be flattered that his/her work is being used and shown by other artists. And also should find PROOF before accusing someone of warez activity. And keep any accusation out of the public view. The piece in the gallery using the seller's work is FREE ADVERTISING. I'm sure it could have generated more sales by the artist referring others to the place to get the goods. But I'm DEFINITELY not going to buy anything from that seller.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=95420&Start=1&Artist=Blackhearted&ByArtist=Yes

I just read over my first post - and silly me I forgot to include a link to the image in question. And yes, in retrospect I guess I should have been more clear with Stefy in my response. I had no idea she didnt speak good English - you wouldnt know from her uncanny knack for writing accusing IMs or restrictive clauses.

If I buy a product... it's mine... not to sell of course, but it's mine to use in my images as I see fit. The owner gives up those rights when I give them my hard earned money. To have someone come up and demand where I got it... or demand I give them credit... I don't think so. I usually do, but that's my choice. Sometimes I'm lazy and just post a pic. Especially if I have a lot of items in a pic. I do not claim I made what ever is there, other than the overall composition. This is MY choice... The moment it becomes clear that it isn't my choice, I will stop buying and posting.

I can kinda understand where she's coming from when she asked you where you got her product, since you weren't on her list of purchasers. However, anyone who sells products anywhere should realized that people purchase products using different alias's. Sending back a msg to her stating such should have settled it, however, I think it was very wrong of her to post the comment in your gallery about not giving credit! I see that in a lot of the galleries, where credit as well as information on the image is not given. So, I can only assume that the artist just didnt want to post anything. That is their poragative. I have seen images using stuff I have given away freely and no credit. But again, that is up to the artist. Its always nice to see the credit, and I will always try to leave a comment of the image created by the artist in their gallery. I dont leave comments in galleries where absolutely nothing is mentioned about the image unless the image absolutely stuns me. Thats my poragative :) Anyway, Im sorry Blackhearted that this happened to you. I do hope that you stick around. We've lost too many good people IMHO! :))

****

Blackhearted, quite off-topic but beautiful image :) I have to admit it's frustrating for an artist to not be credited. When there is no credit, people usually think you did it yourself ( how many times people who used my textures did not credit me... and when you see comments saying "you did great job on texturing", yes, it's really frustrating :) You're right, buyers also have rights. But it takes so little time to send an email. If she was offering a free update outside of Renderosity, you would provide your login to access the files... Wish everything will be solved soon, because I'm affraid we will buy empty zip files soon, and we'll have to contact the author to download the stuff :) joelegecko

uhmmmm... when I purchase a product I use my real name, after all it's on my credit card and the purchase of products sold at 3-D arena reflect this as well for other consumers. But I don't use my real name here... so I may buy something and then you wouldn't know because my art uses my handle and my purchases use my legal name. It is my opinion that if you sell it you shouldn't ask to be credited when it is used. I can just see a poster done with the use of Asia & in fine print all credits are given at the bottom. Ridiculous... unless there is a darned good reason to believe it is pirated (i.e. only a handful sold and at about twice that many users using it), she shouldn't say anything because of the handle issue.

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We understand where customers are coming from, WHY...because we are customers too. I often download free items from various vendors and buy them too and hope that I have the right to use them the way I see fit....that is why we will do the same for our customers, Ms Outlaw is right, she bought it, it belongs to the consumer. Blackhearted, we hope you do not leave, take a big breath, this is a bad situation that can now be made right. You took a stand, you have backbone because you stood for something that effects everyone here and others concerning CGI's. I sincerely am glad that you have made all aware of there rights as a consumer and you have brought some attention to us vendors. Thank you, try to have a good rest of the day. Sharen

This is the same thing I posted about in an earlier thread where StefyZZ added clauses to the licenses for her Yazoo&Yoda and Yuma texture packs. The clauses read that credit had to be given to Stefy whenever an image was posted to the gallery using the textures, and that the username posting the image had to be the same username that bought it. After some heated posts, Stefy weighed in on the thread and said that the new license restrictions were removed... she apologized, said it wasn't her intention to offend anyone, and said her English wasn't good and that we may have misunderstood her. Based on Blackhearted's experience, we didn't misunderstand her at all. That's it for me. I bought Asia and Edo, but I won't buy another of StefyZZ's textures until she decides not to treat every customer of hers like a potential thief. -nemo

Enough said. I do buy from the store here, but will never buy from StefyZZ. Thanks for the heads up. I do not need the headaches of such a person.

Hmmmm, very difficult subject this I believe. I think StefyZZ has a valid point, but maybe went the wrong way about drawing attention to it. At the same time I think BlackHearted also has another valid point. As a fellow artist, I would have to agree with StefyZZ to a point. If I was to spend all that time creating such a great texture, I would be very pi***d to see someone display it in a piece of work without acknowledgement. At the same time however, you can not force someone to abide by this rule. We all, as artists, should acknowledge any work we use created by others. This is not something we should have to be asked to do, but something we do out of respect for those who in a way have helped us. You can not ignore any element in a piece of work. You can not say, "Oh but the texture is not important in this particular piece", because it is. Every element has it's role to play. And if that element belongs to someone else then I think it is only fair to pay them credit. Just my humble opinion HJ

I read another thread about SteffyZZ's restrictions, yesterday. I pondered it, a bit...and came to the conclusion that real "Warezers" wouldn't give two hot snots, anyway. Therefore, to me...It was a moot point. This thread, however, proves me wrong. Unless someone is planning on sending me a Christmas card, or, a freebie...I would prefer not to be on any lists. I shudder to think how totally embarrassing it would be to upload a picture, and, have the maker of the texture to make a rude comment. Talk about taking the joy out of art. My advice...lol...would be for all of you all to start learning how to make your own stuff. (Aside, from "must haves" like Mike and Vicki...AND when the heck is Mike 2 coming out?) However, for the hobbyist, this is not a solution. So, then, to the vendors....take care....please, don't let suspicions drive away potential future clients. If someone has privacy issues, but, has your product....Please, display some good sense and do not treat them as second-class citizens. The benefit of the doubt is a lovely thing. Pop...pop...Poppi!!!

Have to agree with that Poppi, very well said. HJ

I tend to agree with most of the comments above about giving credit on every item used in a work. Apart from everything else it raises logistical problems. However, a very interesting legal point is raised by this issue and one which all should consider. When we buy a commercial product we do not OWN the product, but are licenced to use it. (If we owned the product we would have re-distribution rights) The licence is issued to a named person or company. If that name is false, an alias or different to the person using the texture or software product, the matter could technically be subject to legal action even if the person really did pay for it. It would be a matter for a court, but I think a court might consider an alias to be a technical licence breech. I am not trying to start a row or debate on this but I think it might be worth looking into. STORM

In all fairness is it possible that she sent the IM & gallery post prior to the first thread regarding the new licensing restrictions? It may be the comments were made at a time when her temper was still up, and she did not realize how others would react to this. I'm not saying in any way that blackhearted is in the wrong with his anger. But it is so easy for these things to get out of hand, we are all for the most part complete strangers to each other, often not even knowing weather the person you've been chatting with is male or female. My point in that is that it is very easy to insult someone when you know nothing about them (like accusing them of warez use) Even I was outraged briefly about the license thing, but I didn't know she didn't speak english either. I have to stop and think how what I say will be translated and how what others have said were translated to us. It is very easy to forget that there are many here whose native language is not english, For the most part I'm really not used to this. end rambling

That's why I put bar codes on the bottom left toe nail of all my Hatchlings. So I can scan your gallery images, and make sure its an authentic MallenLane Hatchling. Now if they just wouldn't wiggle so much when I'm putting the stickers on. ML

again i hate to have to draw attention to the fact that in a community such as this the consumer should be the main focus, and not the vendor. i realise that Renderosity has a large stake in the marketplace here - and this IS all about money - but unless your customers are happy you wont have much of a community for very long. i think that a possible solution to this would be a standardised license for ALL products in the marketplace - one that both vendors and customers agree to before a transaction and is clearly posted from a link on the main page. it would avoid any confusion or legal hassles, and will put an end to customers buying products and then later finding out that they have these rediculous strings attached. as for a separate, standardized license for freestuff? i dont think thats a bad idea either. it would protect users and if someone wanted more liberal terms of use for their product they could just waive the license in their readme. -Gabriel

I don't generally post into these... but IMHO, attaching a "Must use same alias/username" and "Must give image credit to creator" clause on a purchased item is wrong. It's also not a requirement in any of the R'osity Marketplace guidelines I'm aware of. If someone does wish to attach further restrictions on an item, over and above the required lisencing from the marketplace, then they had best make these restrictions REAL plain in the store copy so that potential purchasers can see them up front. And make their buying choices accordingly. I wouldn't buy an item with a clause like that. That would be like ELSA telling me I have to mention their company everytime I post an image rendered on a system with one of their video cards. And that I could only post if I signed my work with the same name I used to buy the card with.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Not if the IM and gallery post were done last night (night of 10/12), as Gabriel said. I posted the first thread the day before yesterday, and Stefy responded during the morning hours of October 12. I am particularly incensed that she behaved this way after she posted this to the previous thread: "First, excuse me for my not good english, and then I'm very sorry if I have disturbed you with the additional licence I've added to my last products, but that absolutely was not my intention. Indeed, I've decided to add it 'cause I was very tired to see images with my "warez products" posted here in the Renderosity Gallery from "warez members". And some of them have also provided me the url where to find my warez products... This is the only reason why I've added this additional license that is referred only to the Renderosity Galleries and not for anything else to my last products. There are absolutely no restrictions for commercial use or for anything else like usual. So I'm very sorry if I've hurt someone, and believe me, I should have never thought that I should have hurt someone!! And that's why I will remove that additional license ASAP. Many apologizes for this. Sincerely, Stefy. "

Storm, I don't think that argument would technically hold up in court. Reason being that aliases aren't illegal and a handle is often a business name or portion of. If images are signed with an alias and the model is bought by an individual name, or company then the use of the model as it fits the terms should still hold. I often purchase things via my business SilverMage Concepts, because when I use my business account I am better able to track purchases for tax reasons. BUT I have every legal right to sign my images in whatever manner I choose. Sometimes images are signed to SilverMage Concepts and sometimes to me. Handles are used on the web for safety and privacy issues. I don't believe that a court would find a person in default of contract for using their handle online. If a person can prove the identity that purchased the product is theirs, then they legally own it. With all the advances in the law towards internet usage and rights, I personally (could be wrong) feel secure that what I purchase in good faith I have the right to use in good faith and in accordance with the terms. On another note, if I purchased an item and then later discovered a term of use that stated I had to always give credit if I posted images in a public or specific gallery I would request a refund and raise quite a stink about it. Unless those terms are made public, prior to purchase then one believes that the general terms for commercial products holds true. After all one can argue a gallery as any number of things. What she is requesting is free advertising, and to get that she can give the model away to others for them to advertise or pay for it... I certainly won't buy her products as I am very careful regarding terms of use, both in my own items and those I use. I don't want any confusion regarding what I can and can not do, nor do I want to have to keep score of a numerous number of items.

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OMG...Mallenlane..you got me gigglin'. BlackHearted...I personally, would not buy a product with the restrictions on "Asia". However, I am not much of a consumer of other people's creations...I enjoy doing my own stuff....And, then...lol...If I have a problem with it I only have to quarrel with me. AND...I DO give myself credit in the gallery, when I post. Getting serious, now....I think...the license should be prominently displayed BEFORE an object, text, etc., is purchased. That way...If the client does not like it...They have the choice not to buy.

Just one of the reasons I don't buy anything from the stores, or DAZ3D for that matter. And I almost never download free stuff anymore either. I do still grab the weekly freebie from DAZ, but never use them. Don't know why I still bother, really. Credit this. Remember where I got that. Forget it. So I went out and bought a modeler and started building my own models. They may not be great, but I do get great satisfaction out of them being of my own hand. Stick around Blackhearted. Your art work is good and I think you can see most people here agree with you. jon

 
~jon
My Blog - Mad Utopia Writing in a new era.

Could one of the vendors clairify a point, just for our information: When we buy a product from R'osity, what information do you get? Do you just get our 'alias' or do you also get our real name, or other information like email addresses? That would clarify this issue somewhat. If all you get is an alias, well, as others have pointed out, people change aliases. Last names, too, for the matter, especially women.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=428429

heres a link to the other thread, to which she posted the above message (18. Re: New License Restrictions at the Store by StefyZZ on 10/12/01 02:11) she made her comment in my gallery and sent the IM a day later.

response to ladysilvermage If a person uses more than one screen name, they are still the same person that purchased the product. "ShadowCat" doesn't have a credit card, but I do. If I were to purchase something it would belong to me (usage wise) regardless of what name I use online. The credit card is in the name of a real person, therefore the usage license goes to the person who pays that bill. Here's something else to think about. My husband and I both use the same computer, and both use poser. Now what if I bought something, is he not supposed to be able to use it? When someone buys a software item, loads it into the computer, it then is legal for whoever uses that computer to use the software that's on it. I think even the most anti-warez people can agree with this, If you don't I'll ask you this: how many people use your machine however briefly and would you be willing to buy more than one copy of everything?

Good for you jon, isn't it great to be able to have your own models. Unfortunately, some people just don't have a nack for it, but they do fill in the spaces that I certainly don't have, like texturing and creating wonderful models with clothes, hair etc. I do thank them all. Sharen

BlackHearted, sorry this happened to you. I try and give credit when I post pics in the forums or galleries, but sometimes, I forget someone. If you purchase something then I agree, you should not have to give credit, you paid your money and it is yours. If you were trying to resell the texture, I could see her point, but posting an image, geesh. Please don't go, I Would miss your opinions :)

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What I'd like to see clarified by a Renderosity store administrator is this: Are vendors allowed to set any arbitrary restrictions they like on the use of an item? And can they do this post-sale? I bought Asia unaware of Stefy's mania for being given explicit credit in the gallery. I would not have bought a texture pack knowing that the creator expected to be given prominent credit on every image using it, in perpetuity. If I got a comment on an image such as Blackhearted got on "Heliotrope" from StefyZZ, I'd be furious. So now I have two products (Asia and Edo) that I paid a fair amount of money for and feel I cannot use because of impositions their creator has placed on me after their purchase. I can't return them or get any sort of refund. My money is just completely wasted. What does the Renderosity store have to say about this?

Goldfire I own 3D Arena and I can tell you that when a purchase is made there the vendors get the name that is used in the order for the cc purchase. In most cc purchases there is no place for a handle. I would think that here at 'rosity you might get both, but elsewhere they are likely to get your full name. Frankly I get purchase order for my items and often wonder who bought them, I have yet to see them pop up here by a purchaser... I frankly don't see a problem with it not having a handle. But I'm n ot paranoid and I know that if someone uses warez, they weren't likely to purchase my stuff anyhow so I didn't actually "lose" anything. Of course if I catch ya' I'll nail you, but I won't be paranoid about it. Ruins customer relations... (and I don't have enough customers to spare lol)

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Jstro...you're a person after my own heart. Sometimes, I use something free...and, I do give credit. Freestuff is such a nice gesture to the community. Even though I do alot of print work, IRL...I do so enjoy making my own stuff when I am going to post to gallery. In a way, it is a manner of becoming a "goddess" of sorts. And, the few things that have been purchased.....Gifts from my sister, and, my children...Even I want some of the "must haves", but, am often too stubborn to pop for them. ;)

Oh, the restrictions were made AFTER the purchases.....Well, then...They aren't worth anything. There is no such thing as an Ex Post Facto law. So....just forget all this silliness and enjoy your purchases, would be my advice.

You laugh Poppi, but I know you went and looked for the tag!

shadowcat: That was the point I was trying to make to Storm. I wasn't saying that use of handle nullifies the usage rights, I was saying the exact opposite. As for: "I think even the most anti-warez people can agree with this, If you don't I'll ask you this: how many people use your machine however briefly and would you be willing to buy more than one copy of everything?" I agree (although NO ONE touches my computer, the damned infidels would die! lol) however, there is a loophole to that argument. Technically multi use for the purpose of sales is considered a business use, if a vendor of any product requires a seperate business license for multi-users, you would be expected to pay for that. I've never seen a license like that for models though.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

You're right, Mallen...and the danged hatchling is still wigglin, too, dagnabbit.

Hard to enjoy them, Poppi, if Stefy continues to post snippy comments on every image using them which doesn't credit her. Also hard if she decides to IM every person whose alias is not on her purchaser's list and in so many words calls them a thief. I'm with rwilliams... StefyZZ is more of a headache than her textures are worth.

"The licence is issued to a named person or company. If that name is false, an alias or different to the person using the texture or software product, the matter could technically be subject to legal action even if the person really did pay for it. It would be a matter for a court, but I think a court might consider an alias to be a technical licence breech." So what you're saying is that since my name isn't on the CC (only my husbands is) and my hubby makes most of the purchases, that only HE has the right to use it? Cookie

post sale changes don't work.... All previous purchases fall into what the law calls a "grandfather clause". You can not change terms after the fact. example: did you or anyone you know turn 18 the year they changed the drinking age to 21? If so you'll remember the grandfather clause allowed you to drink at 18, although those who were still 17 had to wait until they were 21. In Arizona, they enacted a fence law for swimming pools that required that fence slats had to be a certain distance apart. all owners who already had fences around their pools were not required to change the fence, but if they had to repair the fence or sections thereof they then had to meet the current legal guidelines. Same applies to all contracts, and terms of use are contracts. No contract can be changed after the fact without the express agreement of both parties involved. That means that for all those who previously purchased Asia, Steffyzz would need to have each and everyone of their agreements in writing in order to have any legal standing. I'm not saying taht it would nullify all of them if one disagreed, only that as blackhearted didn't agree to a change of terms, she has absolutely no legal standing and as poppi said, it's all a moot point. Lady SilverMage (first passion was contractual law...)

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

All jokes aside however, a license for a software product can say anything it wants to, as long as your read it and agreed to it. However without an installer to make you read it and force you to click "agree" to proceed with installation, enforcement of a license is possibly a legal trouble spot. I believe Renderosity does not use such installers. So unless you have to click an agree to a license button to proceed with a purchase, I don't really see a way for renderosity to prove that a customer ever saw, or agreed to any license. Just including it in an archive doesn't it was ever seen.

LadySilverMage, Thanks for the clarification; I'd still like to hear from a R'osity vendor or vendors as well.

Sharen - if I ever do buy anything from the stores I'll be sure to read the restrictions before hand. So you're on the right course with your policies, they make sense. The SAMS3D stuff has impressed me from the start and you guys seem to have your heads screwed on right. I wish you the best. Blackhearted - forgot to mention it before. I really liked Heliotrope. Good image. jon

 
~jon
My Blog - Mad Utopia Writing in a new era.

Sorry folks, this is going to be a long one :) Following are the contents of the license.txt file included with Asia. LICENSE FOR ITEMS PURCHASED THROUGH THE MARKETPLACE AT RENDEROSITY This license only applies to items purchased through The MarketPlace at Renderosity, not to any items from the Free Stuff area. It is the Buyers responsibility to read and understand this license. If you are unsure about anything, please send an email to store@renderosity.com. The Artist (Author) retains all copyrights to the enclosed materials. The Buyer is not purchasing the contents, only the right to use the contents. The Buyer may not redistribute this archive file, in whole or in part. The Buyer may not store it any place on a network or on the Internet where it may be referenced by a third party. Buyer acquires the copyright to any derivative works created using this work, provided none of the original materials can be extracted from the derivative work by any means. If Artist can show that any of the original material can be extracted from Buyer's derivative work, Artist can demand both the original and derivative work, and all copies thereof be deleted. For example, Buyer cannot make an image of a texture map mapped to a flat plane, such that the original texture map can be cut & pasted from the image. This is designed to protect the Artist from Buyers releasing work, which lets other users obtain the copyrighted material, and is not meant to infringe upon the artistic endeavors of the Buyer. Buyer may not make any MetaStream animation files with the enclosed materials, until this format can protect the original materials from being extracted. In the event a Buyer is not satisfied with the product a refund may be issued. Issuing refunds is at the discretion of the Artist and / or the Renderosity MarketPlace staff. Refunds will be issued only after the Buyer has worked with the Artist to fix the problem. When a refund is issued, the Buyer is responsible for deleting all files using the product and may not distribute the product. To protect the Buyer: Buyer is hereby granted a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to use all of the contents of the encapsulating archive file. Artist maintains that all items in the archive are their original work, or are derivative works from something found, and verified, to be in the public domain. Artist maintains they legally possess the power to grant the Buyer this license for all enclosed materials. Buyer may use the materials in any personal projects or commercial projects, as long as the Artist 's work is protected from extraction and none of the items above have been violated. Buyer may make a single backup copy of this archive file, for personal archival purposes only. Buyer retains this license, even if the Artist stops selling this work at a later date, or decides to charge a different price. The Artist may only revoke this license, if it is shown that a Buyer has previously violated the terms and conditions above.

Maybe, the tensions of these new times are getting to everyone. But, I would be so heartbroken, if I ever posted to gallery and got so much grief. Warezer is such a bad name, here. Over in C&D...where I love to hang out....That would be called a personal attack, and grounds for banishment. This is all sad. While I don't care all that much for the look of "Asia", there are plenty of others who think that is the hottest texture out. Her creator does have the right to be proud. But, public humiliation, in such a time of stress, is mean. I think part of doing "business" on the web, or otherwise, is being professional. Public sniping, imho, is not.

Poppi - I think an orbital sander will take care of that bar code. jon

 
~jon
My Blog - Mad Utopia Writing in a new era.

Doh...... =( Time to step up production of the Hatchling DNA testing lab. >)

LOL...Snark...got my needles 'n petri dishes ready when you are...Only...dagnabbit...I gotta step on the little guys to get 'em to stop that dreadful squirming!!!

Blackhearted that is a pretty standard term of use, I believe it is 'rosity's. The 3-D Arena one is very similar. I can also tell you that if a vendor at 3-D Arena used those tactics, we would no longer carry their items. Artists have the right to impose their own terms of use on anything they create. They do not have teh right to change their terms in regards to past transactions against those who purchased items and acted in good faith. Consumers have a right to refuse to purchase any item that has an excessively restrictive term of use. For a 3D artist to be required to credit everytime an item is used, that isn't feasible, nor does it appear professional. When I was heavily into photography, I didn't credit the camera company, film company, developer, model and such in my portfolio images. A Portfolio (and imho that means gallery work) is to see what a person can do with the tools they have. I don't care where you got the model, but rather what you can do with it. Unless of course I want th model, then I just ask.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

LadySilverMage: I know that artists can put whatever restrictions they like on an item license, and it's up to the consumer whether or not they buy it. What bothers me is that after myself and a number of people said that we wouldn't buy the new Yazoo&Yoda and Yuma packages because of Stefy's license addendums about credit and usernames, Stefy explicitly said she was rescinding those conditions, then she badgered Blackheart both privately (the IM) and publicly (the gallery comment) about those very things. Worse, it was concerning Asia, a texture package which never had any such conditions on its license. So this says to me that Stefy is going to try to enforce these two conditions after publically saying she was removing them from the license. This is deceptive to a potential buyer and is completely indefensible. By the way... wonder how George Lucas feels about StefyZZ infringing his copyright?

this brings up a couple of other questions, raised also by shadowcat: 1. my fiancee used this computer as well as i did, and i was teaching her graphic art (photoshop, poser, flash, etc). she made some images. now what if she made them with a marketplace texture or model? has she/we violated the terms of sale? can she not post that image in a gallery here? how many couples are there at renderosity that both post images in the gallery? do they purchase two copies of vicky, two copies of asia, etc? 2. then comes an even greyer area. what if my friend, who is also into graphic art, comes over to my apartment. he sits down at my computer, loads up poser, and creates an image?

Gabriel: I'm not sure how it applies to Renderosity products, but most software licensing goes "per seat"... in other words, the product which is bought can only be on one machine, but there are no restrictions about who uses that machine. So your fiancee or your friend could use your machine and make images, but you couldn't give them a copy of a texture package or a model to use on their machines.

fauve: unless the terms are included and you agree to them, then they can not be held up in court, instead she is actually committing harassment if she were to continue. You have every right to use the products according to the terms you agreed to when you installed them. Not reading a license btw is not an exclusion from an agreement, we all know what those things are. Ignorance of the law (or terms of use) is no excuse. The same btw applies to steffyzz and her ignorance of what she actually has a right to do. I think what this mainly says is that steffy has become paranoid and is going to be unrealistically pushy. She will lose potential clients andif she attempts to push it in court she will lose money. Blackhearted: You will be required to shoot him and bury the body...

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

I am still very eager to hear what Renderosity has to say on this matter, since I am already out of pocket almost sixty dollars on Stefy's products (and I almost spent another forty-five dollars based on her assurances on the Forum.) Jeff? Scott?

Well, imho...Sometimes the "one" machine restriction gives me a heartache. I often work "offsite", for local businesses. The owners want me there, to kick ideas to me, but, do not have the software that I use. So....They set me up a computer...I install what I need for the job, do the work...Get paid. And, uninstall the software, that I brought to the job. Sorry, to the copywrite gods that be...BUT, this is just how I have to work. My point...If something does not make good common sense, it might not be a good rule. Trust me...No one I do any work for is in the least interested in playing with 3d programs. They just want their jobs done, and, want to have the right to supervise and give feedback, as, they feel necessary.

Again, I am not defending or supporting StefyZZ's actions but am just trying to tease the legal aspects of this one out a bit. A licence has another aspect to it; it is also a contractual-type agreement between parties. In such circumstances a court might consider alias's to be a breech of contract and licence, or to nullify a contract. (In most jurisdictions contact law has specific definitions and requirements about the legal identity of contracting parties) Internet-type software licencisng is a very grey area as it is all so new and, to the best of my knowledge, has not been tested in any significant way in the courts in any country. LadySilverMage if, for instance, you were to sell your business to another company and included in the sale would be all your software, that company would be (as far as I understand and interpret it) legally obliged to undertake a licence transfer of the software to its' own name if it wanted to use the software. Most software companies facilitate this. Considering the above context, a court might deem it a software vendor's right to be informed of all aliases involved in any software licence in order to protect and enforce the vendor's rights. It would almost certainly view the licencing system itself as a valid legal instrument to protect and enforce software vendor's rights. By contrast if a court were to deny the software vendor the right to know all the aliases it could lay itself open to being accused of facilitating and encouraging software piracy. In addition the courts would also have to weigh up consumer rights and privacy rights against all of this. I don't have the answers and I am just looking at the thing with a view to seeing what might be involved. I think the door is wide open on this issue and it is something that concerns vendors, purchasers and the hosting site, Renderosity, which has a financial and legal stake in this. Regards STORM

First of all, I dont normally frequent the forums, here, or anywhere. I work a fulltime job, and am a fulltime mom and wife, so I consider my computer time very precious to me. Secondly, please don't throw tomatoes at me for my opinion, but I think things are getting blown way out of proportion here :( I have known Stefy since she posted her very first image here in the gallery. It was of her Noa texture that she was working on. The only reason that I met her was because I emailed her asking her how did she create such a gorgeous texture. I love doing textures, I'd LOVE to do models, but my modeling skills suck bigtime, so I'm still taking baby steps :) Anyway, Stefy, who didn't know me from Adam was so very kind to me, and sent me pages of instructions on how to achieve such realism. I've learned a lot from her, and got to know her quite well. Now, from an outsider looking in. I read this thread.... Blackhearted posts Stefy's very first IM to him, and if you look and see, she was very kind. All she asked for was the name that he purchased Asia with. After all, Renderosity goes thru hoops keeping records of buyers so that we can keep track of who purchases what. Now, do you HAVE to give this info, probably not... but wouldn't it have saved a LOT of stress, aggravation, and grief had you simply just replied to Stefy with an answer? I saw the stipulations that Stefy put on her newest package, and after hearing from other vendors, as well as customers, she decided that wasn't appropriate, and she promptly removed them. I KNOW that Stefy isn't on any kind of "witch hunt" here, and if everyone here would put yourself in her shoes, I think you'd see differently. She IS a very talented texture maker, and is only trying to protect her hard work. As for the image posted ... after seeing it, I have to apologize for not commenting on it while I was right there in the gallery, but I'm doing a dozen things at once, (had a major computer crash last week) so I'll comment on it here, and try to get back to it :). It's a beautiful image!! Wonderful postwork, and the lighting is excellent. However, if I were Stefy, and seen that image, and seen that you'd given credit to everyone else, and not me, when in fact it's my texture that makes up the majority of the image, well I can't say that I wouldn't have sat here and thought hmmm wonder why he didn't mention me, but mentioned everyone else? In fact, a comment was made, and the person that commented even asked what texture it was. Had you had no credits at all for anything used, I wouldn't have thought twice about it, and neither would Stefy I'm sure. I've seen lots of images in the gallery with Stefy's textures, but there were no credits for nothing used in the image. Do people have to give credit, nope, but I've always known artists to be very respectful to their peers, and do it anyway. Heck, I've already given credit to the wrong people, and been contacted. Have I spoke to Stefy in regards to this situation at hand, yes I have. And I have to tell you all that she's very upset over the whole ordeal. It was never her intention for things to be blown so out of proportion. All she did was ask how you got the texture. A simple reply as "I bought it under another screen name, and the name I purchased it under was "John Doe" ... Then she could have checked her records, and all would have been good on the homefront. I do hope that everyone realizes that all she is trying to do is protect her work. Deb

Debbie M.

Deb: Stefy said in the earlier thread that she would not demand credit on every image using her textures, and she would not require each user to identify him/herself with the username they bought the texture under. Then, less than twenty-four hours later, she did those exact two things to Gabriel. I don't care how nice her first IM was... she went back on what she said in the public forum to potential purchasers of her work. She wants to protect her copyright and catch warezers? I can see where the same username as gallery poster restriction comes into play on that. But demanding credit on any image including one of her textures? How does that protect her copyright? How does that catch a warezer? And by the way, I certainly don't speak for Blackhearted, but if it was my image you made that comment about (that the texture was the majority of the image) I would be incredibly insulted. As it is, I know I will hesitate before I ever use another bought texture or item in an image, if that's the attitude of the vendors.

yes storm, if I did sell my business I may have to include my models in the purchase. Exceptions to this would be items which did not require an individual business license. As tax wise all "tools" and office supplies depreciate, so do they in the courts. Also I am able to sell my business and keep my computer and microsoft products for myself. That is a transfer of name title, not a transfer of property. I can use SilverMage or Lady SilverMage on any image I wish to. In so far as SilverMage Concepts is concerned the id's are interchangeable to the business. Not exactly trademarks, but they are the "signature" of the business. In the same manner that an author may buy their supplies on their credit card and use an alias in their writings. OIr actors use in the signing of their contracts although many of them have never legally changed their names, they still sign contracts using the name they are known by as it is accepted that they are one and the same. It is the consumers right to privacy that would imho weigh against anyone attempting to push the issue in regards to the use of handles. All safety rules regarding the internet specify privacy. Don't give out your real name and info. As far as contracts and aliases are concerned, the problem is more likely to occur if you use a non-legal alias (and that term has different meanings in court) in the signing or agreement of a contract, not if you use a legally purchased product under an alias. My county where I live doesn't issue a "business license" in the same manner that we had in Arizona. Instead they issue an AKA license. They tell you that your business name is a "fictitious name". So to get my "business name" registered I am required to register a "fictitious" name. So handles and fictitous names are not always considered by the courts to null and void out a contract. Unless of course you use a false identity in the agreement of a contract that you have never used in a legal aspect before, or have not set up the id as a legitimate part of the business. I agree, it is a grey area, but more than likely it would side towards the consumer who uses/purchases an item in good faith. I think that if steffyzz had approached blackhearted in a different manner then it would have been fine. Had she said, thank you for using my texture, I don't recognize your name as a purchaser and due to recent illegal activities regarding my product I am forced to be more careful, would you mind telling me what name you purchased th product under? The information will remain confidential" A refusal to do that would be suspicious. As it is not a big deal to tell a vendor what name you used to purchase a product, if approached i a civil manner. But to require that the same name be used is in this format ridiculous. In regards to other software, the difference here is that unlike software programs, models and such do not require registration. There no updates that are automatically sent out. There is very little technical support and it generally has more to do with installing right after purchase.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

If someone purchases a texture..Why must they, at a later time, at the whim of the creator, be forced to divulge what name it was purchased under? I think folks like the internet because of the anonymity. Folks don't like being on "lists", unless they are gonna get something free from it...imho.

fauve, I never read the earlier thread, or know the whole time of events on the entire situation. And it was never my intent to insult that image, and I certainly hope that Blackhearted doesn't take what I said as an insult. I was merely trying to put things into perspective. The image is of only a woman, with very little clothing. So in my opinion, the model used IS the majority of the image. And the texture on the model is Asia. I meant no harm in what I said, was only trying to help explain what possible it is that Stefy sees. Deb

Debbie M.

Cheryle: Whether or not I can get my money back, I have already deleted Asia and Edo from my computer. There's no way I would have used them again after this imbroglio. I'm not sure I will ever use a Renderosity store purchase again unless I can be sure that the creator has a better respect for their customers.

Protecting her work is one thing.. putting ridiculous terms on bought items is plainly letting her buyers know that she doesn't want them to buy from her. IMO - She really needs to sit down and read through each of these threads. To see what her customers, potential customers think of these restrictions. As a vendor I would never demand credit if you buy one of my items. Once I sell something I lose rights to it except to the files themselves. (Clarify this.. I lose the right to tell people HOW they can use them or to give me credit because they are buying the right to use the items in any way that they see fit except for warezing them out. ) As a buyer I have bought things using my friends credit card.. and using my own. I will (when given a chance) do the same again. Simply because sometimes friends buy me gifts and sometimes I have money to burn. As a buyer I would never buy something that prevents me from using it as I like. I don't go to the store and buy stuff to make soup with only to have the store tell me that I can only use the carrots for dips and the potatoes as twice baked. Seems to me All the vendors.. (Not just rosity ones either)Need to sit down and see what everyone is saying because otherwise they are going to lose buisness.. along with their reputation. Stormrage

thank you for the compliments on the image. as for your theories, i really think youre seeing things through the eyes of a friend.. through rose colored glasses. we can sit here and hypothesize about this all night, but the fact is that i posted an image in the gallery, minding my own business, and it seems that simply because of an oversight in the credits ive now come under attack. the comment she made on my image is insulting and rude. so is her IM - both of them. i was extremely insulted. she has no business whatsoever demanding the rediculous things that she does. yes, it would have been easier for me to just tell her the alias i purchased it under and be done with the entire ordeal. but i wouldnt have slept well at night knowing that my rights had been trodden upon and i had behaved like a spineless whelp and allowed it to happen. my instant message to her was polite as i could manage, i had to rewrite it a few times to take out the obscenities that my hands kept typing i was so upset, yet her reply to mine was downright degrading. everyone tries to protect their work. but when they go too far, when they overstep their bounds as a vendor and tread upon the buyer's rights, then it has to come to a stop. ---------- "I saw the stipulations that Stefy put on her newest package, and after hearing from other vendors, as well as customers, she decided that wasn't appropriate, and she promptly removed them. I KNOW that Stefy isn't on any kind of "witch hunt" here" yeah whatever. a day after she posted that she didnt want to hurt her customers and that she would remove her clause she attacks me with her accusations. shes not on a witchhunt? BULLSHIT. an online friend of mine, someone who ive been encouraging to post their work here for months, finally posts his first image in the gallery (with the asia texture). immediately after he received the EXACT same message as i did from stefy. i know he has concerns for his privacy as well, and hes not one to get into arguments or voice his opinion like i am, so he ignores the IM, deletes the image from the gallery, and resolves never to post an image again. he just logged in today to see a message saying if he doesnt purchase asia within 48 hours he will be banned from renderosity. and you say shes not on a witch hunt? this is just someone who refused to give in to her rediculous demands. he was a great guy, and now he wont set foot in this place even if he isnt banned. so now i ask YOU. just what the @$#% right do you people have to accuse people like that? everyone is innocent until presumed guilty, not vice-versa.

i understand totally Fauve, i have done the same with a diff texture that had those same restrictions, except the place i bought them from- i could not preview the terms of useage first. ;( still, try emailing the store,.. see what they say...( i never did get my money back. The vendor i bought from has a tendancy to bash users if they complain about anything, even if it's justified) Poppi! quit chasing those hatchlings around!! some of them have teeth! ;)

"he just logged in today to see a message saying if he doesnt purchase asia within 48 hours he will be banned from renderosity. " Okay, this is SERIOUS bullshit!!! I want to see someone from Renderosity comment on this NOW!! That is absolutely ridiculous and despicable -- this just shows why I and others resisted Stefy's conditions in the first place. Are we all going to be treated like THIEVES now until we can prove differently, to each vendor's satisfaction?!?!

I'm really trying not to see thru rose colored glasses, I'm not a mean person, and I don't get into arguments here, or anywhere else. I usually keep my opinions to myself. I was only trying to help make sense of the whole situation. And yes fauve, if someone is threatened to be banned, then I agree this thread does need to be addressed by an admin. I'm just really sorry for all involved that this happened. Deb

Debbie M.

Blackhearted, if what you say is true it is scarey. Granted it is very easy to simply give the name the item is purchased under. Even if that name is a friends, but the idea that every image posted using that texture is now being checked against a list is the ultimate. Well, personally I think that's obsessive. BUT, if approached in a reasonable manner then there is nothing wrong with giving the purchase name to the vendor. After all, they already have it. Unless one has something to hide (not meaning that you did anything wrong, but some people need to hide for various reasons). Possibly an invoice number would do better than a name, after all you can't see my drivers license via my monitor... If 'rosity is the only place Asia is sold, (I know it's not at DAZ) and your friend is new here, then it would be cause to worry. Being suspicious isn't a crime. But banning someone without proof is. We are all innocent until proven guilty, so unless 'rosity can prove that your friend stole the texture than that is ridiculous and a sign of yet one more reason that I have stopped making purchases here...

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Dagnabbit...I know they have teeth, lil....m...oops, sorry. Actually, I am so trying to make my own hatchling. Grrrrr....He/she looks alot more like shelley winters, than a cute wee babe who has just popped out of an egg. :) Shoot...my clown disappeared on me tonight. There are 8 cases of anthrax, here. This is not my most favorite Saturday night. Ya know...those hatchlings look a whole bunch like my old, dead buddy, the garbage lizard. I might have to squawk copywrite infringement. Pop...pop...Poppi!!!

debbie m - since you brought it up, i can assure you that the texture is probably the least significant component in that image. the lighting and shadows wash most of it out, and there is a material color tint to it to make it darker and add some highlights. if i didnt have an hour of postwork invested in it i would simply swap it for catharina's sara map and be done with it. actually, i think im going to do that right now. i might not do all the postwork again, but at least it might get my mind off this crap for awhile.

Blackhearted: I wouldn't have recognized the texture for Asia if it wasn't for this mess. But it is a great image, and I think that has to do with many other factors besides the texture used on the woman. By the way, I am testing a new .sig, straight from the Marketplace. Do you think I should use it on every post, just to be safe? Fauve Official Purchaser of: Emily, texture and material pack for Victoria 1 and 2 $14.95 10/03/2001 N/A EmilyTexturePack-magnet2679.zip 21 Natural Poses #2 for Michael $13.95 10/03/2001 N/A ericsmset014297.ZIP 21 Poses for Victoria Set - #11 $13.95 10/03/2001 N/A ericsvset024094.ZIP Classic Hair style $20.00 10/03/2001 N/A CHS3518.zip Haunted House $20.00 10/03/2001 N/A H-House1142.zip Michael & Victoria Couple Poses $12.95 10/03/2001 N/A LisaBVMCouple1317.zip Fantasy Dream Ballerina $26.00 10/03/2001 N/A FDB3485.zip 21 Standing Poses 2 - for Victoria $13.95 10/03/2001 N/A VickyStanding2412.ZIP Victoria Sitting/Lounging Pose Set $13.95 10/03/2001 N/A vickysittingposes1747.zip 21 Standing Poses I for Michael $13.95 10/03/2001 N/A MikeStandingOne2410.ZIP 21 Poses for Michael $13.95 10/03/2001 N/A michaelposeset4.zip Michael Natural Poses Set 2 $10.95 10/03/2001 N/A michaelset2.zip LQ Couple Poses Pak 1 $12.00 10/03/2001 N/A LQCP14348.zip "Vicky Petite" - Petite Head & Body Kit for Victoria $15.00 09/23/2001 N/A VickyPetiteByMagnet4092.zip 21 Standing Poses $13.95 09/23/2001 N/A victoriapose81941.ZIP 21 Sitting Poses II- for Victoria $13.95 09/23/2001 N/A VickySitting22411.ZIP 21 Poses for Victoria - Set#10 $13.95 09/23/2001 N/A ericsvset014093.ZIP 21 Sexy Poses -#2 for Victoria $13.95 09/23/2001 N/A EricsVicSxy23100.ZIP 21 Pose for Victoria Set - #9 $13.95 09/23/2001 N/A ericsvictoriaset93611.ZIP 21 Natural Poses for Michael $9.95 09/23/2001 N/A posesformichael.zip The Professor $10.00 09/01/2001 N/A professor3573.zip LuLu Hair for Victoria and Posette $9.99 08/17/2001 N/A LuLuHair2687.zip Asia $26.00 08/17/2001 N/A StefyZZAsia2693.zip Victoria WG-RMT character $12.00 08/17/2001 N/A VickyWGRMT2640.ZIP Xena Hair Ultimate $19.99 08/17/2001 N/A RUNTIME2556.zip Edo $28.00 08/17/2001 N/A EdoPack3537.zip Morgan Le Faye Hair for Victoria and Posette $9.99 08/17/2001 N/A RUNTIME2254.zip Tomy $14.95 08/17/2001 N/A Tomy-set.zip Total Hair Complete & Update $30.00 08/17/2001 N/A Total%20Hair%20Complete1016.zip Julia Hair for Victoria and Posette $9.99 08/17/2001 N/A RUNTIME2095.zip Maiden Hair Supreme for Victoria and Posette $9.99 08/17/2001 N/A RUNTIME2362.zip Carlos Forte $17.00 08/17/2001 N/A Carlos Forte1975.zip Jenna Hair for Victoria and Posette $9.99 08/17/2001 N/A RUNTIME3282.zip Catharina's Michael Texture #2 $14.95 12/09/2000 N/A mario-textures.zip HandspanStudios Romantic Vicky $15.00 09/10/2000 N/A Beards text for Tomy Catharina Przezak $5.95 Michael's many faces vol. 2 Eowyn $8.00 Room with a View KenS $14.95 AnnA-MARIA # 2 Catharina Przezak $7.95 Sidra HandspanStudios $10.50 Ultimate Lamp azl $11.95 Ultimate Hair Combo Pack One VAIRESH $30.00 Kain character Catharina Przezak $9.95 Cleopatra Power Hair hmann $27.00 Tree Leaves For Poser tom3962 $7.50 Fantasy Vicki HandspanStudios $15.00 Textures for MW's Azura and Eve4 HandspanStudios $12.00 Chere HandspanStudios $15.00 Audrey for Victoria HandspanStudios $15.00 Sasha for Victoria HandspanStudios

cheryle - (if thats adressed to me) my friend's offline right now. ill ask him to post the message, but i honestly thing that right now he doesnt want to have anything to do with this place. either way, stefyzz and the renderosity admins should know who im talking about. and yes, i believe him. he has no reason to lie about something like that. ladysilvermage - hes not 'new' here, i believe this was just his first image posted in the gallery. its sad that he never wanted to post, and ive been encouraging him to post for months now. and when he finally does, hes confronted with this bullshit.

Oh, my....And, children are going to bed hungry all over the world. Seek knowledge....Learn to make it yourselves. Avoid these type of ugly incidents. Use the spare money to help a hungry, or, otherwise, needy child.

Poppi: I know how to make my own textures and morphs. I began with this forum when it was the old Poserforum.com and we were all using Poser 2. The purchases listed above are from the last two years. I have to say that until today I enjoyed playing with other artists' visions and making them part of my own. No more, though.

fauve.. if You could use anything of mine i would give it to you. I don't like seeing people disallusioned. Not all vendors have the terms like steffy or act the same way.. Unfortunantly some do act that way. One bad apple shouldn't ruin the barrel for anyone Storm

VERY NICE PICTURE!! But geeze, goes to show I am not an artist, I would've never reconized the texture used. Jack

Speaking as a mod... it is NOT the place of a member to IM or email someone stating that they'll be site banned. That's a call that only a site admin can make, and one that's NEVER made lightly without investigating the situation. Anyone who is recieving threatening IM's/emails, they need to screen capture them when they get them, and send a copy attached to an email to Tammy or Tim Choate [contact emails listed under "The Team" link on sidebar]. If Steffy is doing so, she's in the wrong on this one. Speaking as a vendor here on a couple of other points... please don't let a bad experienece with one vendor, or one member cause you to paint all of us with the same brush. Not all of us put additional restrictions, or send harrassing IM's to purchasers. Some of us never do, and I've actually had items warezed. I think it would be a crying shame if anyone determined to never post another image because of a bad experience with one member.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Well, this is all jsut geting ridiculous. Despite what's been said it does appear that steffyzz has decided to fo on a "witch hunt" in a manner of speaking. I wasn't fond of asia, and I refuse to use anything once it saturates the galleries.... But I honestly hadn't recognized Asia in the Heliotrope image at all. There really isn't anymore tosay on this subject. Other than harrassment is also illegal, and slander is libelous even if it is done by an artist and a company. So I would think that 'rosity would be very careful how far they take this when someone appears to be on a rampage...

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Oh, Fauve, I did not mean to insult you. I like looking, and, even trying to simulate them, myself. I just work for myself...going on 5 years, now. I can't afford all the stuff that is for sale. But, If I take the time, I can do a pretty good job of kinda sorta replicating what looks good to me. This thread is interesting to me, as, the stuff that has been purchased here, has been from my kids, or, my sis, as a gift. (Only the "must haves", though). :) Poppi

i went to work on the image again, to remove the asia texture and remake it with another, but i cant even look at the goddamn thing anymore. so ive loaded up dina instead - jack, im determined to get this broad to look desirable :) since im not too great at major morphs (only little tweaky ones) im going to try by just scaling and poking her into something more to my taste. i wish i had the time and patience to make full morphs.

Hehe... I'd give you my morphs for Dina, Gabe, but we have already determined that you consider them unaesthetic... ;->

"So I would think that 'rosity would be very careful how far they take this when someone appears to be on a rampage... " LadySilverMage, please read my post up in #93. [I think we crossposted] The vendor in question is NOT speaking as a representative of Renderosity in any IM's sent. No ability to ban or have anyone banned... and not likely to have at this rate.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

ironbear - im not sure wether the IM he received saying he would be banned within 48 hours if he didnt buy asia was from stefyzz or from a renderosity admin. hes not online so i cant ask him.

Thanks, Blackhearted... give me a day or two. I messaged an admin to browse this thread, and I'll look into it as much as I can.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I think this is getting way out of hand. Why dont you contact Stefy before going on with all of this? Shes a very comprehensive and kind person, and Im sure shell make her best to work out a solution for this. She is from Italy, so I guess shes sleeping now, and thats the reason why she hadnt posted any message in this thread (just in case someones wondering). peace arturo

this whole issue is the result of contact with stefy - contact that she initiated. jack, fauve - im actually making progress with dina's head. her body.. a daunting task - i will leave that to jim b or some other patient bloke :) ill post a pic in a few.

DinaV's body is actually really nice, once you morph away Real-Life Dina's giant plastic balloon-boobs. The only thing I wonder about is why the real Dina's very nice muscular definition in the legs didn't translate to the model (with Diane's "shapely legs" morph, Dina's legs become pretty, but they are still not toned.)

I've been skipping over messages here so I may have missed something, but has anyone suggested banning Stefyzz? I saw two instances mentioned in this thread where she was simply harrassing Renderosity members; one didn't even have the texture(!) and the other is having restrictions added to the license POST-SALE. He did not agree and is not bound to the license Stefyzz is trying to enforce, in my opinion. This is outrageous. Incidentally, I'm in the market for new textures and I will never EVER buy from Stefyzz, regardless of any sort of "explaination" she is able to offer in all her broken English. Bad business, missy.

so far this is the best i could do with dina's face. i must admit.. she has potential. she just needs a morph to pull the edges of her nostrils forward and together. theres some slight postwork. hair is hmann's cleo power hair from the marketplace. the two of them together, hair and dina, are a little taxing on even my system, but not as bad as i had feared. 2 dinas and 2 cleo power hairs? umm... maybe too much :)

In case anyone cares this is not the policy of any other vendor or of the store that I know of. As far as HandspanStudios is concerned you do not have to mention our name anywhere in your renders, nor do I keep track of a list of buyers etc. If I give away or sell an item it is with the understanding that you do not owe me any credits, anything of that sort is a courtesy we appreciate but would never demand. My readme says that my items are ok for private or commercial use as long as you don't give away or sell the model/texture. I think that is the norm with store items, free stuff sometimes has additional restrictions. If a vendor wanted to place extreme restrictions on an item it would be necessary to make the buyer aware on the sales page or the readme at the very least.

"Your work is to keep cranking the flywheel that turns the gears that spin the belt in the engine of belief that keeps you and your desk in midair."

Annie Dillard

Well that all reduced the choices for the texture im gonna buy!

Kurgen: Me, I'm going for Handspan Studios from now on if I'm going to buy a texture. Ingrid is every bit as talented as StefyZZ, and she sounds a hell of a lot more reasonable.

Bloody hell! I've had to change my alias once also! I was forced to it by someone who cracked a back door to my computer and stole my identity and did nasty things with it in some forums and stuff. I don't know which characters I bought before or after that happened. Ahhhhh...... Does this mean if I post a image showing something I purchased here then the same thing could happen to me?

I should also add that the problems the hacker created with my old alias made it so that I could never safely use that old alias again. It could be a danger to my self to even risk giving it out. :(

fauve, I have to agree with you there:) I've bought several Handspan Studio textures/characters and I'm really thrilled with them. They look great with no fussing. Ingrid is a very talented lady. Claire

Hey, fauve. I make textures, too. :-) Seriously, this sounds like it's totally getting out of hand. I hope everyone understands that this is not the policy of most vendors at Renderosity and it's certainly not the policy of ANY vendors at Renderotica or GRC. In fact, I would not allow items in my stores that carried restrictions like that. I truly don't understand this feeling that a buyer of a product is obligated to give credit in posted images. If you are going to sell your products, be professional about it. You are (or should be) selling them without restrictions on rendered images. That's one of the main reasons for buying an item. Heya, Blackhearted. Don't know if you have my morph package or not, but there are some morphs in it that address the nostril thing you're speaking of. Nice face, BTW. Diane

Don't I know it, Diane.... :-> I still remember when you burst on the scene and how in awe we all were of your "Karen" texture. She had freckles, moles, delicate blue veins in her breasts, everything. I adapted her for Joy, for Eve, for Natalia, for Vicky... I still use both versions of Karen today. The first major 3d illustration work I made was inspired by and used the "Karen" texture, and any kudos and praise I got for it really go to you. Then I burned my hand and did nothing for a year or so until the skin grafts took hold. And then I was sort of creative-blocked on 3D illustration until I met the beautiful DinaV... :-> Believe me, I know how much I have to thank you for.

I have been more or less "away" from this place for some time, just passing through here and there to check for needful things. I lost my stomach for this place some time ago, no distinct reason really. But this, this really crystalizes it. The very idea that some mad texturer is running about making lists and checking them twice is pure insanity. Clearly, this person is not cut out for saleable items, regardless of the quality. She demonstrates a highly unrealistic understanding of customer relations, the warez epidemic and other issues. Her status as a store vendor should be revoked, her items removed and she should be sternly warned that any further accusations against members honor will result in a total banning. I sense that none of this will come to pass, and that she will be coddled and protected. THAT is the precise problem with this site as of late. I believe the system does not work. I have many, many solid ideas for several different ways that this site and modellers could continue to make money, foster good will and take the sting out of the Warez problem. Like any other broken system, I suspect that the folks running it will scramble double-time to continue to support the failing, crumbling system and will not seek out new ideas. People hate to think outside of the box, don't they? Shame! Shame on people who say any of the following: "Oh, it's her bad english" - Bullocks, her English is fine. She had little to no problem expressing in English that she is a jerk. "You should've just told her what she wanted" - Rubbish. You let one person hassle you and the next thing you know, all the vendors will gather round and dissect every 500 images posted per day and sending countless accusitory IM's to each artist that doesn't "Check out" It is that sort of thinking that allows dictatorships to arise. (Sidenote: Current state of America?) And a final grim statement about Warez: If you're planning on vending items, you need to know that your item(s) will be warezed. They might not be, but you should go ahead and assume they will be. If you don't have the heart to see that happen, don't sell. As the system stands, warez flourish and it's beyond all real control, including list-keeping and checking of each gallery image posted. (That's just insane). If you think you can stomach seeing your items warezed, then go ahead and figure that in to your bottom line. Put your stuff in the store and completely detach yourself from expectations. When and if you get a check for items purchased, be happy and thank your Lord, Lordess, the Force or whatever else you count on for providence and rest assured that when all is said and done, people get what they deserve. -WTB

Attention! This thread is causing a very hazzardous situation. It is now so large that the sheer gravity of it in cyber space is now affecting the real world. Its shifting the delicate balance of the north american continent, and as a result california is now in danger of sliding off into the ocean...... ML

fauve, I wondered why I hadn't seen you around for so long. Sorry to hear about your hand, but it looks like you are back in full force and doing some beautiful work! You know, Karen is still one of my favorite textures. That one just seemed to come together. But I wasn't really looking for kudos. Just really wanted you not to feel like you had to stop using things from the online stores, because most of the artists selling their work don't have those kinds of restrictions. ML, dontcha know that California is ALWAYS in danger of sliding off into the ocean?

Sigh I'm getting worried here. I'm a vendor, too, and it really upsets me to see people say that they aren't very likely to purchase anything from the MarketPlace after this. I can understand the frustration and anger, but please don't take it out on us other vendors, who don't put such ridiculous restrictions on our items and who treat their customers with respect. I'm with Ingrid/HandspanStudios. If you buy any of my items you can do anything you want with it (as long as you don't give it away or sell it) and I really don't see why you should give me credit - heck, you paid for it, that should make me happy enough :) I do have a "list" too, with the usernames of people who bought my stuff... but I'm not very likely to remember those names and I'm surely not going around the gallery checking to see if someone who's not "in my list" has used my stuff. Heh, I've got better things to do on my freetime :-) Warez is a problem... but frankly, if people were pirating my stuff.. well, I guess I would be somewhat upset but I would also be kinda flattered that someone thought my stuff was good enough. But I definitely wouldn't go on a witch hunt... geez...

Wow....the things I miss....you folks hiding these on me or what?? Now where on God's green Earth did this thread come from.... Took me a whole half hour to read over all these goodies...or baddies...take a preference. I find this totally and undeniably rediculous and I have my reasons, but I will have no comment at this time...I refuse to comment and no one can make me comment if I don't want to....enough said?....

Add me to the list with Ingrid, Eowyn and others.. I don't add restrictions, not even on my free stuff. One of my freebies recently featured in a picture that won a prize at DAZ.. No credit but hey I was pleased to see that it had been put to good use and that someone benefited from it.. Had a big grin from ear to ear did I.. Yes my stuff is warezed.. But that won't stop me from treating my customers with the respect they deserve... That won't stop me from making my customer exclusives.. Psst working on one now :) All I can add is to ask please do not lump all vendors into the same barrel.. We as you are, are individuals.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Senior MarketPlace Tester

If anyone sees a mind wandering aimlessly around..... It is mine.  I want it back.

People... it appears that IronBear has things in hand, and also it appears that at least he is on the side of the consumer, and not the unreasonable demands of a certain vendor. Meanwhile, I am forging ahead by working on all sorts of random stuff, just to see if I can do it, and I hope eveyone takes a deep breath, and gets back into the simple -FUN- of just making pretty pictures again. 8-D SMILE! That's what MallenLane has been trying to get us all to do! PS: I'd probably purchase things if I had a credit card... bu I don't, so I can't... ;_;

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

After consideration, Ive decided on the following course of action for myself. What others choose to do is, of course, up to them, but this is how I choose to handle the situation. If I put together something that uses textures acquired from the freebies section, I will credit those on my images. This is something Ive been remiss in doing in my gallery but will correct once I return from my next business trip. However, when it comes to items Ive bought, unless I am unusually impressed with the work, I see no point in giving credit. Im not advertising your wares unless they are outstanding in quality, sorry. And any merchant who trolls my gallery will find him/herself reported to admin faster than an image can be uploaded. I am not your advertising agency. I am a purchaser. And that entitles me to use what I have purchased in any way I see fit. If you dont like that possibility, then I suggest you figure out some way to forbid selling anything to me. But it will be my line in the sand to anyone who attempts to dictate what I can and cannot do with something I paid good money for beyond the reasonable limits of good taste and commercial usage.

....I must stipulate beyond signifigant extremist proportional magnitudes of gargantuan behemoth cataclysmic exuberances...that this is one thread I will be peek-a-booing all the live long day....I must go now and adjust my underwear...excuse me....I hate wedgies.... Agent RadArt (psst...I am in disguise...don't tell..)

wow, what a long long thread this is. (time for me to make it LONGER g) Basically, we have TWO types of items available here. We have STORE items, and we have FREEBIES. It's important to know the differences between the two in regards to following proper and legal procedure in their use. If someone creates something that they feel very proud of for reasons of having put in many many hours of hard work then it is understandable that they would want to be credited for their work. Such a creation typically incites the creator to want exposure for their name being associated with the item as opposed to the artist who rendered the image being mistaken for the creator of the items contained therin. So, with that in mind, they created the item for recognition purposes and NOT for monetary gains. If someone were to spend the same amount of time and energy to create an item to sell in the store, then they have outlined their intent of being compensated for their work in the form of monetary rewards. It is then unjustified they should seek DOUBLE COMPENSATION by demanding credit for the creation since they've already reaped their rewards. My point is this: Although you may have your own reasons for creating things for others to use and/or have acess to, it is in your best interest and the interest of all that you decide up front which of the two reasons outlined here you intend for your creation to be linked to. If you want money, sell it. If you want exposure, then post it in the freebies section with a readme file containing your personal restrictions of use. But don't go off the handle and make rude comments on ppl's gallery images just because you didn't see your name pasted underneath in the list of credits even if it was a freebie. A simple instant message to the person posting it will usually suffice and they will most likely be willing to rectify the text to accomodate your request especially if you're polite about it and include such a request in your readme file. As a vendor, free advertising for your ability is NOT part of the transaction agreement. If you want to insist upon credit along with the money (double compensation), the rules of the store clearly indicate that such an added restriction MUST be identified in the advertising promo render either in the picture itself or in the text underneath so that ALL potential customers have the opportunity to know it's not like the majority of store items. Be aware that such restrictions tend to thwart sales.

Well spoken, VirtualSite!! Jack

Thank you, sir. =) Im away for the next month to places all over the Eastern US. When I return, I fully expect to see post no. 745 on this thread in place, so I suggest everyone get busy and not disappoint me. =) I do truly love this place, and I shall miss you all for the next 30 days.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=430565

Chill out folks. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. If you used to buy stuff from the stores, continue to do so. If you preferred to make your own, like I do, continue to do that too. You should not punish all vendors for the perceived sins of another. And go read this thread. http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=430565 You might get some insight into Steffyzz's motivations, misguided as they may be. And if you were fortunate enough to see a posting last night (it has since been removed) from some bastard flaunting his warez prowess, you might better understand Steffyzz's apparent paranoia. These bastards are the real reason this got started at all. Really, it's a kind of a shame they took the post down. It was very illuminating and would have made a good counter point to what is going on here. jon

 
~jon
My Blog - Mad Utopia Writing in a new era.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12360&Form.ShowMessage=430438

Oh, it was not removed, simply moved to this forum. Read it too. It may help put things in perspective. jon

 
~jon
My Blog - Mad Utopia Writing in a new era.

jstro - how does that put things into perspective? i fail to see your point. of course warez exists, and everyone knows it. this is nothing new or groundbreaking. but crimes of all sorts exist. i dont go knock on my neighbors door and accuse him of being a child molester without a shred of proof, now do i? nor, because crime exists, do i automatically assume everyone is guilty of one crime or another until after ive trodden upon their rights and they have met all of my rediculous demands. she is way out of line, and there is no excuse. paranoid about warez? it exists. like someone said above - the people who traffic in warez probably wouldnt have bought her items anyways had they not been able to aquire them for free. every vendor in the marketplace faces the same problem, yet none of them take the prissy, rude and insulting vigilante approach that she does. and they do not resort to misleading and immoral tactics like she does, nor do they try to scam a way to get free advertising for their products in their licenses. her entire presence at renderosity revolves around money. she doesnt speak english well enough to understand? bullshit! her posts in the galleries, all of them promoting her products, have immaculate english in them. so do the clauses that she adds to the license agreements after point of sale. her IM to me was also in perfect english. i sympathise with people who must learn english as a second language. i had to learn it as well, and ive also taught ESL so i know both sides. but i also think that some people conveniently use this 'oh, i didnt understand what you meant because i dont speak english too well' bs to extract themselves from situations. she understands perfectly well, and even if she didnt, its no excuse.

I'm fairly new here and seldom post, but I'm extremely disgusted by Stefy's recent actions. I've been thinking of changing my account name, but I wonder now if I should. I've bought a lot of stuff in the store and I wouldn't want to be accused of stealing if I were to post pics in the gallery. Blackhearted, your image is awesome and I commend you for coming forward. I would have never guessed the texture was Asia. Ms. Stefy must put a lot of effort into examining images and checking her "list". I can't believe the good people here at Renderosity would even allow the retrictions Stefy originally put on her new stuff. I mean we're PAYING her for her work. Ms. Stefy is a talented artist and Asia is a true work of art... but, I've had difficulty with her color(yellowish) when I use her with other models/texutures. That's prolly just me though. I'm still learning. Be assured, I'll never use Asia again after seeing the comment Stefy made in Blackhearted's pic and her other actions. Thanks to those vendors that have reassured your customers. It DOES matter. This issue really touched a nerve with me. I'm removing Asia from my system and will never buy anything else from Ms. Stefy. I hope others do the same. I also intend to contact the store and ask for a refund... which I will use to purchase other products in the store. I'm amazed daily by the images in the gallery. Never has such a incredible group of artists and hobbists been brought together by a common interest. We are living in an amazing age. I'd especially like to thank those that have contacted me with "thanks you's" and offers of assistance after I've purchaced your products. And, thanks for listining to my rant. Solar

This constant fighting and arguing between vendors and artists is a might pathetic...really...I believe this...I think at times too many people will find a problem where there is NONE and yet completely miss or ignore the real problem!! Now why would that be so you ask?? Hmmmm?? Simple....it's much easier to dust a pretty lampshade than to clean out a dirty, stinkin' toilet bowel.... As for these "credit" issues.... ....frankly I also get tired of all this "credit" crap thing....I never ever see any CREDIT given on any of the postings of store products saying who and who else made that product look so wonderful with their art...like...so and so made this hairpiece look absolutely superb, go and see his/her fine work, thank you so and so....REAL art don't grow from trees ya know....artists spend oodles of time on their renderings just to make all this stuff LOOK GOOD...if it weren't for artists none of this stuff would have any meaning and it be worthless...selling or otherwise....something to ponder... ...I can understand the inflated prides of wanting to be "known" for your work...but when your things are "used" is this not already a sign of marksmanship??? Why should someone that BUYS something give credit after...that is just stupid to "HAVE" to do that....if you want to do this BRAND a big logo into your stuff that can't be removed....do the artists then turn around and insist upon recognition for rendering with every item that they purchased?? This should really be a "Modelosity Forum" cause that render part has very little value other than to advertize and give credit.... ....meanwhile something stinks in Denmark....<----(that thar is a saying....!)

.

I dont expect credit, and I dont expect people to keep the same user name. Like the other vendors have said she doesnt speak for all of us. If you buy it and do an image with anything of mine its your image not mine. While I always appreciate it I certainly do not require or expect it, sometimes your credit list would get really long and if you are like me you always end up forgetting someone anyway accidently :)

I'm the one that Blackhearted mentioned. I recieved two messages from StefyZZ, the first inquiring as to how I had gotten the texture, and the second threatening to have me banned permanently from rosity and having legal action taken against me if I did not purchase the texture within 48 hours. The texture was a gift from a friend of mine who knows that I'm into poser. I have no idea what name they used to buy it, most likely it was just an account created solely for the purpose of purchasing the texture, as he isnt into computer graphics at all. I didnt answer the IM because I dont see why I should have to accompany every image I post with an explanation of the origins of each and every item I happen to use. I too find nothing in the licenses in the zip file that indicates I must credit StefyZZ as the creator of the texture. I find it rude and obtrusive, and a violation of my privacy that I should be subjected to such inquiries and threats which are based solely on presumption. For that reason I deleted my images. I have not posted, and will not post another image in these galleries ever again. I would rather not have to deal with this kind of thing, thank you. I will not take further part in this debate, I merely wished to clarify a few things. I take my leave of renderosity now and forever, goodbye everybody.

I think if StefyZZ realy threatened Grey Matter to have his account revoked she should no longer be able to sell stuff here. But that is just my opinion. I do not have to decide that.

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
-"Amazing Grace" Hopper

Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

Blackhearted I meant it might add some perspective for those who seemed ready to write off ALL the vendors in the store based on this incident. A bit of an over reaction, it seemed to me, especially in light of what these other two threads show as to what vendors have to deal with. I was not endorsing SteffyZZ's actions, indeed called them misguided. As I said; Don't throw out the baby with the bath water, folks. While I have never bought anything from any of the vendors here, I have learned a lot from them. Many are very active in these forums, sharing valuable information with all of us, whether or not we buy anything from them. That was the point I was trying to make, perhaps not so well, and don't even have the excuse of my English not being so good. I'll shut up now. jon

 
~jon
My Blog - Mad Utopia Writing in a new era.

{i think that a possible solution to this would be a standardised license for ALL products in the marketplace } I think there should be a "license template" for vendors to use; the template is the "default" user license, and if the vendor wishes to alter these terms, they MUST do so in an attacked text file - they also should at the VERY least indicate in the item description that usage includes variant restrictions.

In order to protect the customers , I think there should be one license and only one. I think it should be the one that renderosity provides, I dont believe there should be alterations to it. It is a pain in the ass for customers to have to keep track of every stipulation and change. If a vendor doesnt like the renderosity license they have the freedom to sale their goods anywhere else. Its all fine to post your stipulations and make the consumer aware of it to begin with, but if someone makes a lot of purchases , how are they expected to remember every item that had an altered license and every alrteration to those licenses. Am I supposed to go through all my read me files and view every one til I have them memorized every time I do a render even if I use nothing free , I should have to keep up with that? Its ridiculous. Vendors want protection from warez BUT customers have the right to purchase and use their items without having to make it a task to use them. I dont think the terms that were added to the items were reasonable or constructive.

Well, from what I know about law....A stipulation tacked onto an item AFTER purchase is not part of the valid contract, anyway. Like...I sell you a car. We both have a copy of the bill of sale at the time of sale. You leave with the vehicle...I rewrite my copy of the bill of sale, stating you cannot use it on any public streets/highways, but are free to drive it all you want on private property. This is basically the same thing that was done to the earlier purchasers of Asia, from what I read. She can scream all she wants, but, she does not have a valid contract on the new demands.

All for a good policy debate, but IIRC, I thought the consensus was that republishing IM's is not proper, even in C&D, it being tantamount to publishing private letters without permission. If for no other reason, are these not still original works copyrighted to the author? (serious question:) Does the fact that these relate to a commercial matter confer some different status?

Hey CB, "and if the vendor wishes to alter these terms, they MUST do so in an attacked text file" attacked text file, couldn't have said it better myself. :)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12360&Form.ShowMessage=431351

Basically from what little I have had time to follow here most folks seem pent on massing upon Stefy for her sheer lack of professionalism in dealing with a concern she jumped to a conclusion upon and dealt far too harshly with <-----in a nutshell I think that is what all this is about.....Nance....posting private IM's, you mention this above and it IS a disgusting "unprofessional" thing to do....as I see it the "customers" or "base en masse"" in question here are acting VERY unprofessionally here also, perhaps even moreso...I lead you now to a link of continuance of "this here" vastly disappearing thread.... I now return you to your normal station identifications...."behave"....;-)

whatever rad, nance. they were posted to show that the day after she said she would remove the conditions she attacked me, meaning she had no intention to do so. i do not want any relationship with stefy at all. i spent the money at the renderosity store, she has no right messaging me or posting in my gallery the way that she did. if you dont like the fact that i posted the IMs, thats your opinion - i sure didnt like receiving them. if she didnt want them posted then she shouldnt have sent them.

I have to disagree on the IM thing. If someone sends me some nasty IM about something, I'm not about to keep their dirty little secret and let them put on a different face in public. If you're harrassing someone, everyone deserves to know. And this DOES most definitely constitute harrassment. In fact, the grey-matter situation may even leave her open to criminal charges. Certainly, if she harrassed someone over the phone or through the mail in this manner, she could be charged. I think Stefy needs to pull her head out of her ass and apologize to these two folks before things escalate any farther, and before she puts herself out of business here at Renderosity, because right now I think she's lost herself a whole pile of customers.

this is just speculation, but i dont think its just 'these two folks'. the fact that grey-matter and i received the EXACT same first message, word for word, many days apart, indicates that stefy has been sending these out to several people since she has made a standardized template.

I replied on the other thread above.....x2000....I would agree with you on one instant with that....if after I sent these IM's to those in charge of this site and I was not pleased with the result I would then consider further determined actions in this venue.....but I have always felt that posting public dirty laundry in the open, (unless your about to be killed), is merely an attention getter and a demoralizer, it may solve the problem....but so does dropping an atom bomb on an ant hill.....

I will say this here and probably again on the thread above.....please do not get me wrong....I know you were mistreated here....what happened here in this situation is appalling and infuriating to say the least...I would not even attempt to argue that point.....what I am stressed about here is really not you so much....so in fact I am not really being fair with you here... What bothers me so much is how easy and simple it is to destroy someones reputation and talents on the open forums, you have every right to be upset as would anyone else at what took place but after all this is over and done you will be able to lick your wounds and go on, problem solved....Stefy may well have no wounds to lick....she will quite possibly be ruined....I am not certain I would be so content with that result if I were in your shoes. People should be held accountable for their actions, and tough shit, she asked for it is probably a mind melding thought here....but I guess I am a softee, I still kinda feel bad for a talent lost. I still wonder if this could have been handled with a little more finesse "openly" as to assure at least the possibility of a humbled but neverhteless continuance rather than just a total demise.... Take care.

Considering what good Poppi has just made me aware of it would seem I owe Blackhearted a few here....I would certainly be quite distressed if I had a message under my art suggesting I was a warezer....that could ruin someones' reputation openly big time as well.....I will now eat some of my words...thanks Poppi....thanks folks for listening to my drivel....Blackhearted, you have my respect for your concern.....I am now going to get the salt and pepper, I have a very long day ahead of me munching on many letters......crunch......

i am not out to 'ruin' stefy - thats why all ive posted are the facts. what i would like to do, is wake her up to the fact that even though at heart she may be out to protect her work, she cannot violate the rights of her buyers or treat them in such a manner. nor can she bend 'law' at her whim and add clauses to license agreements that have already been 'signed' and accepted. and id also like to make sure that nothing like this ever happens here again - that after purchasing an item from the store the buyer finds out that there are these rediculous strings attached. the main focus of renderosity should be to keep their buyers happy and protect their rights - not to cater to the whims of some of their more arrogant and disillusioned vendors. i realise that this is a site driven by money - but that money wont keep pouring in for much longer if more people leave or become disgruntled.

is it just me... or isn't this about the ART... not credit for who did what?? (and definitely NOT demanding credit be given!!!!) That is insane....

Radart frankly it was Steffy who ruined her own reputation and her own buisness.. Simply because of what she did. Blackhearted was right in doing what he did in reporting the problem since other members and customers should know

Hey everyone, youve got to see this this plastic model boat i bought and painted. Okay so i used different colors than what was originally intended, and i made a few personal modifications to the way the tackle is set up (any true sailor would know its wrong). But using a needle, i painted on the hull exactly the colors and modifications to make it the way I wanted it to look!! For those adept ones out there, you get the analogy. Its exactly the same thing in regards to a Poser model. I personally may or may not give credit, but if I got bitched at to put credit on my post, and a big "screw you" would go out to anyone who tried to force me to. Id just say, "fine, give me the $$$ i paid for this, and you got a deal. Oh you dont want to? Oh, well, dont that just suck." I am a fairly respectful person to those who I choose to buy from. I have great respect for StefyZZ's abilities (I have Noa; and yeah, go ahead, check the friggin log). But I hate how everything has to turn into a damned disclaimer-else-possible-lawsuit-slash-I-have-a-hissy-fit-that-would-make-you-wish-that-you-did-get-sued. Maybe we can learn from this, and move on to find out the exact quary where Vinus De Milo's marble came from, and what chisel and hammer were used... yeah thats it! check the bottom of the sculpture; maybe its there! All I know is that this gun (created by Samual Colt in 1837, and polished with a rag that was torn from an old Haynes undershirt) that is now pointed at my head, is gonna leave less of headache than all of this.

HEI I'M NUMBER 151 : My comment is :" DO WHAT EVER THE FU&^$K YOU WANNA DO !!! You wanna sue someone be my guess..... YOu wanna be pirates be my guess..... YOu wanna be an ass or a bitch be my guess..... BUT KEEP YOUR MOUTH TO WHERE IT BELONGS !!!! And btw....... This comment is made by Dees.... any legal right will be whatever you like it to be..... And please do someone sue me and drag me to court....ROGER COOLOUT

this guy should be the poster-child for birth-control.

Darn, got to the party late. Only zealots will still be reading this far down. So, for my fellow zealots: Two separate issues being addressed here. While I hope we all recognize that, (1.) clearly, no contract may be unilaterally altered subsequent to the sale, however (2.)the underlying issue of a seller requiring acknowledgement or credit, while somewhat annoying, is perfectly legitimate, and a routine practice under laws which apply here and, I presume, most anywhere else. If included as a condition of sale, such a requirement is not an optional matter of choice, discretion, or convenience but one to which the buyer is bound. A hypothetical example that I believe most would find common & perfectly reasonable: -------------------------- As part of their 50th anniversary promotion, Stan Lee wanders in and posts the official Marvel SpiderMan figure and textures for sale in the store. As part of the terms of sale, the limited usage license includes the following conditions: 1. The figure may not be used in any type of commercial application. Such usage requires additional licenses. 2. Though illustrations using the figure may be published in non-commercial venues (fan art / galleries) , any such publication must conspicuously include the phrase "SpiderMan character trademarked by Marvel Comics and used with permission". [or some such legally loaded phrase] --------------------------- Have we not all seen similar requirements quite frequently? Would this cause a similar uproar? If Stan can, then why not Steff or any other artist? Again, I realize that this is NOT what occurred in this particular case, as the restrictive terms were apparently NOT included at the time of the sale. However, had they been included, then all this puffery about "I've paid for it, so I'll decide when and who to credit as I deem appropriate" would have neither a moral nor legal leg to stand upon. Yes, you may have paid for the license, but that price only confered the specific rights specified in the license. And it did not include the right to publish without the credit statement. Is it not clearly accepted by all that, after agreeing to the terms of any sale, NEITHER party may subsequently make up their own terms. If either buyer or seller wishes to modify the usage rights after the sale, then they must simply negotiate an additional deal AND amended sales price that grants or restricts those rights. Otherwise... the deal is the deal. Don't like it -- don't buy it.

I figured it out. As beneficial as it would be to have my work critiqued and have suggestions given, this is why I dont post here.

I agree with CB - there should be a STANDARD user license template for the store items, and there should HAVE TO BE a statement WITH THE THUMBNAIL stating "EXTRA RESTRICTIONS IN LICENSE" - with a link to a copy of the actual text, so that the purchaser knows, without ANY doubt, BEFORE the purchase, exactly what NON-standard restrictions are imposed. Anything else is simply UNFAIR. ********* STEFY - I have never bought any of your products, but I was thinking of buying some. Now, FORGET IT, I will NEVER buy anything from you, under any circumstances whatsoever, Period!

This is all rather pointless without some input from both the Renderosity admins and/or Stefy herself, so this is the last post I'm going to make until that happens. Otherwise, we're all just talking to ourselves. Here is how things happened from my view. 1) Stefy posts her two new texture packages in the store for sale, along with a clearly worded addendum to the license about the same username which bought the texture being the poster of any images in the gallery. She also requires credit on any gallery image using it. 2) I post a thread asking her to reconsider the license changes. At no point did I say she had no right to do them; what I said was that I didn't see how requiring credit on all images would stop warezers, and that I and possibly others would be put off from buying Stefy's new textures with such conditions attached. 3) Stefy posted, saying that it was all a misunderstanding and that she would remove the conditions. She added that the new license restrictions were brought about by warezers. She didn't address the "credit in the gallery" issue at all. However, in the descriptions of "Yuma" and "Yazoo&Yoda" in the store, there was now a paragraph saying that those buyers who had already purchased the packs should delete the two extra license requirements, as they were "NO MORE VALID!!" 4) About twenty-four hours after posting this, Stefy sent her IMs to Blackhearted. She also posted a rude message under his image in the gallery. Both of the issues she was confronting him over were the same as the new license requirements that she had already publically agreed to withdraw from her new textures. Worse, both issues were about ASIA, a texture which never had any such requirements in the license. My conclusions from this were that Stefy publically agreed to remove the username and credit restrictions from her products after a thread was started saying the restrictions would hurt her sales, and then she proceeded to try to enforce them anyway. Worse, she appears intent on enforcing them not just for the two new texture packs, but also on her previous works. I was more than willing to believe the initial problem was a simple misunderstanding or a frustrated reaction to warezers (although, for the thousandth time, this doesn't explain the "giving credit" clause, which I personally find far more disturbing than the username clause.) However, Stefy's actions flatly contradict both what she wrote about removing the license restrictions and the change she made in her item descriptions in the store. This is why I think that Gabriel (Blackhearted) wasn't wrong in posting her IMs, and why I think this is not a discussion that would have been better kept in private. Stefy appears to be trying to have her cake and eat it, too; take out the license addendums that would cut down on her sales and then enforce those same license addendums on unwitting buyers. I won't even go into how she tried to enforce them, by threatening banning etc if someone didn't buy her textures. I nearly bought both "Yuma" and "Yazoo&Yoda" based on Stefy's word about removing the license requirements, which I thought was good. Since it has turned out that she has not kept her word and instead actively harasses purchasers of her work who don't do as she wants, this needed to be made clear to anyone considering buying her textures. It has been. If there's someone out there who thinks that "Yuma" and "Yazoo&Yoda" are worth the hassle, then more power to them. And if we're going to address the subject of credit, ASIA is a fine texture (though I will say that I spent more than two hours in Photoshop adjusting her excessive yellowness.) But there would be no ASIA if there was not Victoria. There would be no Victoria without Posette. There would be no Posette without those sad lumpy little mannequin people of Poser 1 and 2. Each of them wouldn't have existed without a 20-plus person programming team, a corporation, investors in that corporation, bondholders, etc. Does Steve Cooper demand credit on every Poser render posted? Why is StefyZZ's contribution more important than his, or Larry Weinberg's, or Seth Ahrens or Jinhua Shen? Art isn't a cookbook; take Vicky, add Asia, put in some Anton Kisiel hair and a light set by azl and presto, you have a gorgeous image. We have all seen pictures created using that theory and they were nothing special. But there are marvelous images that are genuinely artistic, that are much more than the sum of their store or freestuff parts. Some, like Picky's work, are so altered from their original Poser-render state that they are virtually brand-new and any Poser elements that went into them are almost irrelevant. Stefy's demand for perpetual credit offended me because it seemed to imply that in her mind if your picture was any good, it was because you used Asia ("my Asia", in her own words.) Therefore, any merit in your image rightfully belongs to her. This completely discounts the creativity and skill of the artist, her customer. And creativity is the reason why we are all supposedly here in the first place, right? There. I'm done.

This is getting totally out of hand. I was just talking on the phone to a friend who was surfing the net for goodies last nite, and found a site (no, I don't know which one it was) where the terms of use stated that full credit for any item used had to be given ON THE IMAGE itself if posted anywhere on the net at any time. ON THE IMAGE ITSELF??? Not even in accompanying text? Good f*****ing Grief! Needless to say, my friend didn't get anything at whatever site that was, and will NEVER go back there for any purpose whatsoever!

Something interesting... Stefy went full out guns on Blackhearted when she saw the pic that he did with Asia in it. Okay, weve been down this road, but heres the kicker. Ive been cruising through the gallery, and dammit, wouldnt you know, even the same day that she went after Blackhearted, theres a ton of images that have Asia in it, with no credit references. Something odd to get the gears churning once again...

Steffyzz has removed her products from renderosity.

{Hey CB, "and if the vendor wishes to alter these terms, they MUST do so in an attacked text file" attacked text file, couldn't have said it better myself. :) } ROFL! SOmetimes the typo makes more sense than the correct message... ;-)

I both buy and sell here at Renderosity. My dad makes most of my purchases using his credit card and an account he made to buy me things. I worry that this same thing could happen to me. Since the item would be purchased under his username and displayed in my work. I really don't want to be attacked by people saying I have stolen their product. Now for the vendor side of me, I would never make a stipulation saying that an artist had to give me credit for using one of my items in their work that they paid good money for. As many here have said once the product is bought it can be used any way the artist wants. I would just be happy to see it being used.

ok...well now that I'm caught up...sort of (I couldn't read this whole thread...lol) I now need to know what another good texture would be to buy. I am looking for a very high-res texture for either posette or vicky. I was looking into asia, but saw it was removed and didn't know why (hence my finding this thread) Can anyone let me know of another good texture they like. Thanks Dragontales

dragontales - if you can hang on for a bit i was planning on posting some texture comparisons in the poser forum. then you can judge for yourself.

Dragontales, I highly recommend the characters&textures of Handspan Studios...Ingrid does beautiful work. I have her "celtic man" for the p4 male (now out of the store, pity) 'Sidra' for posette and 'Sasha' for Vicky - heck, when I saw DAZ was running that end of summer sale and I could get vicky at 30% off, the first thing I thought was, "oh cool, and then I can get Sasha!!!!" because I'd been eyeing her ever since I got Sidra. Ingrid is very friendly and professional; my download of one of the characters kept getting screwed up (man, am I glad I have a cable modem now) and she had to send me the file twice direct. She was very paitent and kind. Ralaci also has some nice textures. That's just two of the vendors I have personal experiance with. I have had nothing but good experiances in the Renderosity store, and I'm sorry that a bad apple is spoiling the whole bin. For that reason, I hope that Russell and Tim will speak out soon and clarify where Renderosity stands on this issue. Other vendors are getting hurt by this.

Audrey & Caitlin are my favorite VixTextures (Love those freckles!) - I bought the Yoda-Yhatever pkg Fri nite & don't like it nearly as much (unless I use subdued lighting, the skin just looks dry & scaly in my renders). BTW Goldfire; I just looked at "Sasha", & put her in my shopping cart - Nice work, there!

As a person here who sells pretty much everything I make, my customers mean the world to me. I have developed extremely close friendships now with quite a few of them, and feel warmth in my heart toward all of them, and loyalty to their needs over my own needs, if at all possible. So to me this situation seems so strange, and extreme. I personally cannot imagine I would have the right to be so vain as to demand that I be given credit in your renders. You gave me credit when you pulled out your credit-cards ;p I do not keep a master list of all my customers (just flat out too lazy), let alone think to try to track down things that have my work in it, and see if this or that person purchased. The only times I ever take time to verify a purchase is when someone writes me asking for file replacement due to this, that, or the other catastrophe that caused them to lose the file. Most software companies do that though, verify before shipping a replacement. But... when someone thinks to mention my name in the Gallery here, it enables me to locate images I might want to look at to comment on in particular, since I stay so very busy developing that my time for actual real image to image browsing of the gallery is minimal. When someone mentions my name it does always bring a happy smile to my face, and literally gives me a happy thrill that lasts hours and hours. I try to locate all those who do, and thank them personally for mentioning me, and using my work in their images, in the gallery (though I do not get in there as often as I should...and frequently have to do catchup of weeks and weeks).

Mehndi Hi! I have your Ultra-Salon Hair, fm DAZ, & really appreciate your skill & talent. I've bought over a hundred products at the 'Rosity Marketplace, & I have to say that the vast majority of vendors I've had any contact with have been, like you, responsive, concerned, & quick to deal with any problems to my complete satisfaction. I have repeatedly been impressed with the vendors here, as well as the quality of their products. I enjoy doing business at this marketplace more than any other site on the web, as it has more member-friendly features & qualities than any I've seen. I also have to respect the admins of the site for their self-restraint, & the freedom that they allow the discussions on the forums. it's a tricky thing to "gandy-dance" among so many disparate personality types & still foster & nurture such a really extraordinary community as this one. (Ummm, Errrr, Oooops, how did I get back up on my soapbox? guess I'll try & sneak away before I start making sense & someone notices S)

smiles Thanks Leather-Guy :) Glad you enjoy it :) I hope to be coming out with another hair prop fairly soon... totally new look and style never done before for Poser (at least as far as I am aware).... but you know me! Im slower than the seven year itch on development, so just cross your fingers and pray I get it done before we all die of old age! ;p

Pardon me for not attributing specific quotes. I am going with the flow here :)

"What I'd like to see clarified by a Renderosity store administrator is this: Are vendors allowed to set any arbitrary restrictions they like on the use of an item? And can they do this post-sale?"

As far as I know they are. I don't even mind as long as the license is made very, very, very clear before purchase.

"So now I have two products (Asia and Edo) that I paid a fair amount of money for and feel I cannot use because of impositions their creator has placed on me after their purchase."

Well, legally speaking Steffy can't retroactively alter the license unless the license allowed for that tin the first place. What remains to be seen is whether the Renderosity admins would continue to allow a rampant vendor to try and impose additional restrictions through harassment.

"Hard to enjoy them, Poppi, if Stefy continues to post snippy comments on every image using them which doesn't credit her."

I agree... this is the part that is most troublesome - the attempted pressure and blackmail to impose new restrictions.

*"1. my fiancee used this computer as well as i did, and i was teaching her graphic art (photoshop, poser, flash, etc). she made some images. now what if she made them with a marketplace texture or model? has she/we violated the terms of sale? can she not post that image in a gallery here? how many couples are there at renderosity that both post images in the gallery? do they purchase two copies of vicky, two copies of asia, etc?"

"2. then comes an even greyer area. what if my friend, who is also into graphic art, comes over to my apartment. he sits down at my computer, loads up poser, and creates an image?"*

You're fine unless there are some really twisted licenses in your library. You ARE specifically allowed to let others use your software, and especially when they are using it on your machine.

"I read this thread.... Blackhearted posts Stefy's very first IM to him, and if you look and see, she was very kind. All she asked for was the name that he purchased Asia with."

I see the request itself as an attack, especially with the implied accusation. it is even more troublesome coming soon after an affirmation that supposedly Steffy wasn't going to do this. So it might have been worded politely, but it was inherently out of line.

"I KNOW that Stefy isn't on any kind of "witch hunt" here, and if everyone here would put yourself in her shoes, I think you'd see differently. She IS a very talented texture maker, and is only trying to protect her hard work."

I agree with her motives but I am vehemently opposed to her methods. I also agree with the motives of my local police -t hat doesn;t mean I am willing to give up my right to privacy. In my mind it is no more reasonable for Steffy to demand my "real" name than would be for Microsoft to try and force me to sign my real name to every Word document I write.

"Then she could have checked her records, and all would have been good on the homefront."

No, it would have been a dangerous precedent and all would not have been good on the home front.

"I do hope that everyone realizes that all she is trying to do is protect her work."

That doesn't do a thing to justify such draconian strong arm tactics in my mind.

"he just logged in today to see a message saying if he doesn't purchase asia within 48 hours he will be banned from renderosity."

Fortunatly the admins have told us this is not true.

"These bastards are the real reason this got started at all. Really, it's a kind of a shame they took the post down. It was very illuminating and would have made a good counter point to what is going on here."

No, those "bastards" aren't the cause of this any more than criminals are the cause of a cop violating my rights to privacy. The existence of "warez" traders is simply not a justification for such measures. As such, they are not a good enough excuse or "cause".

"All for a good policy debate, but IIRC, I thought the consensus was that republishing IM's is not proper, even in C&D, it being tantamount to publishing private letters without permission. If for no other reason, are these not still original works copyrighted to the author?"

Not generally. In most places in the USA you are perfectly within your rights to republish a letter addressed to you, or to play an answering machine message for anyone you want and so on. This is often used to the advantage of the police as it allows them to listen to conversations on a phoen as long as one party consents to that.

Copyright is not the end all and be all of defining what can be done with information.

When you add in that the IM could be considered abusive or threatening, and certainly of import to the community at large in a issue of current discussion I think it was just fine to post it.

"Steffyzz has removed her products from renderosity."

That is unfortunate. I love Asia and had hoped to pick up her new work once she removed the overly restrictive license. Now however it seems even if that license is/was removed it was still going to be enforced by other means. I think I'll be avoiding her work in the future.

At first I was going to ignore all this as my work output generally goes to clients and not onto Renderosity - what do I care if I get snippy comments int he gallery? Then I realized that nothing would stop her from contacting a client directly and demanding to know where the image came from and causing all sorts of confusion. The world is full of good textures. It's not worth it.

This is one of the reasons we purchase from Daz so much... at least the people at Daz are in the business of professional graphic work and they understand that this is not always about getting on the Renderosity "hot 20".

Of course, some of the vendors here who have expressed that they too understand these issues are vendors we are now looking at with renewed interest :)

First off,thanks for the ideas about where to look for other textures, and yes, I can wait to see the comparison graphics blackhearted. Thanks for spending the time to do that. One thing though, where will it be posted? In the galleries? or the forums? Dragontales

This is a damn shame!For you and steffy.

dragontales - in the poser forum right now.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=86940&Start=1&Artist=ladynimue&ByArtist=Yes

I also received the same IM message that Blackhearted did, shortly after I posted an image to the Poser Gallery (on Sept. 15) using StefyZZs Asia texture. (I also own/purchased Edo)The difference being that I not only gave credit to Stefy but also sent her an IM to let her know that I had posted an image using her Asia texture. To be honest I was very upset when her IM popped up on my screen. (I personally felt my integrity was in questions) I did however IM her right away and let her know that I purchase all items under my REAL name and post under my Nick Name. I also mentioned that I try to give credit to everything that I use that I did not create. (I have gone so far as spend hours online looking for the creator of a texture that did not have a readme file with their zip file so as to give the proper credit). To Stefys defense, she did IM me (after a week, as she was on holiday). She was very kind in her response and went so far as to state that I didnt even need to give her Credit for textures, as any texture that was purchased was mine to do with as I pleased. (I am paraphrasing this but basically that was her response.) She also added that she was sorry if I misunderstood her first IM. Now in my defense I must add that it would have been very easy to cross reference the nick I posted with to my Real Name that I purchased this product with, as my REAL NAME is the same on both if you look it up in the members listing. The problems that Blackhearted has had are, needless to say, very confusing and very upsetting. I can see both sides of the situation being an artist who is very concerned with copyright laws and being a consumer who was accused of using something that she did not pay for. I am saddened that things have come to such an ending that Stefy has pulled her products from the Renderosity Marketplace. I am more saddened that Artists are afraid to show their works in fear of being accused of theft. In the future I feel I must IM everyone before I post an image to let them know that I am using their product and that I did purchase said product under my Real Name. Not sure if it is worth the trouble. Sigh.

Ladynimue, please do not let this one isolated incident discourage you so. Some of us are actually in this as legitimate and professional business people. What I mean by that is that it is not a hobby to us, and therefore we do not sit around hunting down for good or ill those who buy our things (though personally if I manage to locate anyone using my things in a render I do try to make a comment and thank them personally, since I owe them a great deal of gratitude). As business people, we realize we will have the occasional case of warez happen to our goods. It is unfortunate, but it is like shoplifting in retail. It happens. As business people, we realize we are giving up rights to certain things we have as hobbyists when we choose to sell our work, including rights to mention of our name. Good business people rely upon the graciousness and courtesy of our customers to spread the word that our work is good, and we in turn should be giving back graciousness and courtesy to those using our work, since it is after all, in and of itself an endorsement. For me, this is a business. Not a hobby. Not a part time job. It is a full time business, as a professional freelance 3d artisan crafting goods for others to use in their art. I sell "tools". What you do with the tools after you purchase them from me, is your affair generally, so long as you do not redistribute my work in such a way that it impedes upon my ability to make a living :) I hope that when Steffy returns, she will have adopted some of the correct attitude of what it means to sell things as a business person, since her talent is vast and strong and her loss to us all would be a shame.

Ah, Mehndi...You said it all, so well. I think that the lack of professionalism, in this matter, really did hurt feelings. Sadly, the good lord, doesn't always distribute talent and common sense, equally. Thanks for the balm on this thread. Perhaps, now, it can rest.

Leather-guy - no prob. I'm always glad to steer buiness to the 'good guys.' Mehndi, though I have not yet bought any of your products, I have heard very good things about you and would never hesitate to do so if one fitted my needs. Why? Because you, and many of our vendors, understand that even in this 'new' economy good old fashioned customer service is the key. And that satisfied customers are your best advertisement. They do what I just did for Ingrid - recommend you to other people. Dissatisfied customers, on the other hand, are also glad - to tell how lousy you are. On average one dissatisfied customer will mention their unpleseant experiance to ten people. On a site like Renderosity, where we have the forums, the effect is magnified. I'm no longer limited to who I can verbally tell. Everyone who reads the forums sees what I say - positive and negative. It never ceases to amaze me how many sites on the Web, especially sites that are not backed by an existing store or mail order buisness have no concept whatsoever of 'customer service.' A lot of them are defunct now, too.

hello to all from germany :-) My english is not very good, but I have to say something to SteffyZZ/Blackhearted Okay..she could ask him if he had buy the texture.. But by the way...What would be happen, if no one could take a piece of an item to use it on his picture for a gallery or project? I think: Just providing the things I buy- it is the best promotion for seller!! Only to use it on the pc at home..the most people would not pay for it- just for fun and only for pc without to play with it to show it! To show and promote it in any way- I think - is the proud of sellers..Or I am wrong? Thats what I am feeling..because Im working with a texture would be happy, if users would have fun with the things in every way- without asking after all, to use it - or show it! Of course - the right is: not to copy, not to resell the textures etc. But to show it in every way..I think: THAT IS THE REASON for working things, to have fun for both sides: Sellers and Buyers. Have a nice day :-))

I think this whole drama will start a new discussion. Money... How much should one spend on the hobby? Even if I only use things from freestuff. Shouldn't I support the community by buying from the marketplace. (Even to support renderosity itself.) Do the top-contibuters get enough for there work? And if not from where should the mone come? In the first few days after I found renderosity, I got to know the name StefyZZ. Credit given or not, I look at a picture and I think that is the famous asia texture. Unique. (Might you love it or not.) Will this part the community in to those who have a texture and those who doesn't? One or two weeks ago StefyZZ posted an image promoting her new childrens texture. I think it was great. I would post it here, if that would not affect her copyrights. I read some statements on not-buying, not contributing, not-putting-into-freestuff. It seems that it is a discussion that should have been made much earlier. And it's not over. Btw I would like to hear the opinions of other power-sellers cu

Has anyone else noticed that the good Steffy has yet to respond to any of these posts? One would think that she would have wanted to do something that would cleanse her name? Im not sure that this means anything per se, but it is a somewhat telling observation. On the road still, BTW, returning home in two weeks... but with a friends computer at my avail, I couldnt help but stop to look in on all my friends...

Whoa.. Now, this is unbelieveable..I havent read more than to message No.17, so I might be missing some details. I have no comments on it, ooh, yes one, and that is that I support Blackhearted 100%. I cant stand arrogant people, and their pathetic behaviour. (I guess that was about expected from a Greek HAH!) Zrincx.