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DAZ|Studio F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 May 17 8:36 am)
Subject: New competition figure Sneak previews - SM
Advanced JCM system.....Hmmm....Yes, really helps when one of their most vocal beta testers thinks JCM's are pollution and are against it:)
Hi guys. I have to say that Bagginsbill almost has me convinced to try out the new version of Poser. It looks like new and different things are going to be happening in the materials department, and I'm interested. Dropping the Adobe Air for the library is a huge deal.
As far as Pauline goes, I actually sort of like her, except for the lips. What I do find worrying is they repeated statements that the new figures are meant to be resources, and since the tools to fix/complete/change the rigging etc., come included with Poser, they don't see a problem with letting "unfinished" figures out into the public. The major flaw with this thinking is that the professional artist on a deadline to get the book cover turned in, does not have the time to fix or create the content they need to use this very second. The professional content vendor does not have the time either. The artists who just wants to make pictures in the evening after they get home from the day job, does not have the time, or desire. These people are going to use the figures that already have the required add-ons, ready to go, that works out of the box. I'm not going to even go into the logistical nightmare of if a character maker thinks the figure should be rigged one way, and the clothing maker has a different idea. That really needs to be standardized, or things don't "work" and people get frustrated and move on.
The other really big problem is how many people that are still using Poser 7 are going to upgrade to Poser 11? I think most everyone who is using a version before 2010 that wanted to upgrade, would have already done it. If one wanted to support the new Poser tech, they are already facing a split market from the beginning. How many new users, the ones we all want to see join our community no matter which software they prefer, are going to have the desire to make their own content, or do their own rigging? How many of them are going to move onto more user friendly software, and how many are just going to give up completely? It is in everyone's interest to make the new user's introduction into 3D as smooth and painless as possible.
The entirety of the decision to market the new figures as base resources for the users to finish up as they like, is completely mystifying to me.
@ DestinysGarden - That is because for some mystical reason they think that the majority of users are tinkerers to the level that they are. But that is what happens when you do not understand the market you are selling in. They keep adding these tools to DIY, but most people want to load, do minor tweaking and render. Now it wouldn't be an issue if the tools were simple to use and gave great results, but they are extremely outdated in design with long workflows. I read the feature list. They are adding some things that have been in Studio for a while now, yet it is hyped as new advances, with a price tag attached.
Other than the new Superfly engine and the figures, I don't see why I should I upgrade when I have Iray and Genesis for free. I have not seen any other feature that has made me want to upgrade. Oh that's the other silly argument. "Yes Daz offers all that for free but you pay for additional content". Ummm, so if you buy the new Poser and use the figures and want new content offered from vendors, do you not have to pay for it as well? I never understood that line of thinking.
-Timberwolf- posted at 1:22PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238101
Right now testers at RDNA admit, that there are pose and rigging issues with pauline. It is up to SM now to address it, why else do they have beta testers for? If SM won't listen, then nobody should complain about the ucoming figure bashing. All I can say is: told you so. SM just doesn't learn. let's hope fore the best. I do think, that Pauline T-stands looks acceptable and I am curious to work on her. That's a good start. and that's way more than we had in the past releases. SM must take more effort in the rigging and add an advanced JCM system like DAZ added on G3. This must be done, or SM figures will rust again in the Runtime backyard.
The testers should have already figured out the rigging issues far before the Sneak Preview. It seems like they aren't objectively testing the items, then taking offense when the public points out the things they should have already caught. Properly putting your product through the motions by qualified people has benefits in the long run, especially when you end up showing the public a polished product. If all you're doing is stroking egos or you don't know what to test, you end up damaging the product when it's time to show it to the world.
Ye, I mean these figures were supposed to show what Poser figures are capable of compared to what Daz offers, since they are now the main content providers. I don't think they got the memo, or even bothered to see what G3 was capable of doing and just went on what they thought was good. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.......The real test will come when the new version goes live, and users will give their feedback. For SM's sake, users better have the "Genesis who" reaction, or it will be another few years of I want Genesis in Poser threads.....
What I miss in DS is the dependency editor like poser has, and Poser11Pro will have that SubD morph brush for_everybody_ !!! The main difference seem to be: SM provides lousy tools, but gives you the opportunity to do a lot for yourself. - To bad, if your not skilled enough. DAZ provides great tools, but doesn't seem to want you doing anything custom - unless you become a certifyed vendor. To bad, if you don't want to be a vendor.
I know, that's said very simple, and therefore not a 100% correct, but these are the messages I understand.
True. So far the only tool Daz does not give out is the HD tools unless you are a PA. Everything else is there for users. Granted it's nice of SM to include it for all, but I am yet to see how it works compared to the Daz one, and how the Sub-D morphs will load on figures.
Male_M3dia posted at 7:49PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238118
-Timberwolf- posted at 1:22PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238101
Right now testers at RDNA admit, that there are pose and rigging issues with pauline. It is up to SM now to address it, why else do they have beta testers for? If SM won't listen, then nobody should complain about the ucoming figure bashing. All I can say is: told you so. SM just doesn't learn. let's hope fore the best. I do think, that Pauline T-stands looks acceptable and I am curious to work on her. That's a good start. and that's way more than we had in the past releases. SM must take more effort in the rigging and add an advanced JCM system like DAZ added on G3. This must be done, or SM figures will rust again in the Runtime backyard.
The testers should have already figured out the rigging issues far before the Sneak Preview. It seems like they aren't objectively testing the items, then taking offense when the public points out the things they should have already caught. Properly putting your product through the motions by qualified people has benefits in the long run, especially when you end up showing the public a polished product. If all you're doing is stroking egos or you don't know what to test, you end up damaging the product when it's time to show it to the world.
I wonder, what those testers are doing then? What whould be your workflow in an app like Poser? I'd load a figure first and pose it (hint: P-O-S-E-R) ;) So posing issues whould be the firts thing you see. It is hard to believe, that short before a deadline, it becomes obvious: "oh crap, our figures don't bend correct."
Timberwolf - Honestly, I don't think some of the testers studied anatomy or know what to look for....If they did, these issues would have been picked up and resolved before the final product was ready. I mean you have one tester that thinks a 6 year old droopy breasted low res figure is perfect.......:) Honestly, some of them are part of the "OH WOW that looks great" crowd just because it's not from Daz, and feedback like that does not help from an objective standpoint. What they needed was testers to tell them "Well, this looks like shit, do it over". Testers who do not care about the Daz and Poser fiasco, and who will look at a figure for what it is. Sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind, not ass lick all the time..It's all for the greater good.
Zev0 posted at 7:56PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238126
Timberwolf - Honestly, I don't think half of the testers studied anatomy or know what to look for....If they did, these issues would have been picked up and resolved before the final product was ready. I mean you have one tester that thinks a 6 year old droopy breasted low res figure is perfect.......:)
I really think, you don't need to be an anotomy expert for that. Everyone of us is pretty good in judginging posing and movement of the human body. That's why art is so difficult, because we know, that the artists' audience notice very flaw. an actor knows, how difficult it is to fake body language, because the audience will notice every uncorrectness. So, when we pose a digital human mesh, we see at once, where the bendings are incorrect. Have you ever shown your Poser work-space to a non Poser user? I did that several times, and everyone-really everyone, mentioned right away all those incorrectesses in the anatomy, right away. So this is not a lack of skills at all. This is something different. So, either those beta testers don't care (Which I personally don't belief !!!) or SM doesn't care. There is still time left for fix. I am allmost praying, that they address those issues. Or please address it in an hot Fix release, at least.
Or please address it in an hot Fix release, at least
That is why rigging etc needs to be as final as possible before a figure goes live. If they can fix it without breaking anything and before mass content creation takes place then good. If not, well, it will cause a lot of headaches.
-Timberwolf- posted at 2:30PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238123
Male_M3dia posted at 7:49PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238118
-Timberwolf- posted at 1:22PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238101
Right now testers at RDNA admit, that there are pose and rigging issues with pauline. It is up to SM now to address it, why else do they have beta testers for? If SM won't listen, then nobody should complain about the ucoming figure bashing. All I can say is: told you so. SM just doesn't learn. let's hope fore the best. I do think, that Pauline T-stands looks acceptable and I am curious to work on her. That's a good start. and that's way more than we had in the past releases. SM must take more effort in the rigging and add an advanced JCM system like DAZ added on G3. This must be done, or SM figures will rust again in the Runtime backyard.
The testers should have already figured out the rigging issues far before the Sneak Preview. It seems like they aren't objectively testing the items, then taking offense when the public points out the things they should have already caught. Properly putting your product through the motions by qualified people has benefits in the long run, especially when you end up showing the public a polished product. If all you're doing is stroking egos or you don't know what to test, you end up damaging the product when it's time to show it to the world.
I wonder, what those testers are doing then? What whould be your workflow in an app like Poser? I'd load a figure first and pose it (hint: P-O-S-E-R) ;) So posing issues whould be the firts thing you see. It is hard to believe, that short before a deadline, it becomes obvious: "oh crap, our figures don't bend correct."
Is the dependency editor for JCMs? If so, doing JCMs is dead easy in DS. Once I create my morph corrections, I can go through about 30 morph corrections by dragging and dropping in about 30 minutes. Being able to getting to the point of using a HD-type tool is know how to sculpt 1 million polys in a modeller first. Knowing how to do it the established way, subdividing and a normal map, needs to be learned if you are doing it by hand. That said, there are already people that don't have access to the DAZ tool and still can create stunning morphs just having the proper tools such as zbrush or mudbox. People have long been able to use low poly models and add subdivision and HD details to them without use of a proprietary tool.
_ I am allmost praying, that they address those issues. Or please address it in an hot Fix release, at least._
I hope so, people are complaining about the shoulders over at Rdna.
-Timberwolf- posted at 2:33PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238123
Male_M3dia posted at 7:49PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238118
-Timberwolf- posted at 1:22PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238101
Right now testers at RDNA admit, that there are pose and rigging issues with pauline. It is up to SM now to address it, why else do they have beta testers for? If SM won't listen, then nobody should complain about the ucoming figure bashing. All I can say is: told you so. SM just doesn't learn. let's hope fore the best. I do think, that Pauline T-stands looks acceptable and I am curious to work on her. That's a good start. and that's way more than we had in the past releases. SM must take more effort in the rigging and add an advanced JCM system like DAZ added on G3. This must be done, or SM figures will rust again in the Runtime backyard.
The testers should have already figured out the rigging issues far before the Sneak Preview. It seems like they aren't objectively testing the items, then taking offense when the public points out the things they should have already caught. Properly putting your product through the motions by qualified people has benefits in the long run, especially when you end up showing the public a polished product. If all you're doing is stroking egos or you don't know what to test, you end up damaging the product when it's time to show it to the world.
I wonder, what those testers are doing then? What whould be your workflow in an app like Poser? I'd load a figure first and pose it (hint: P-O-S-E-R) ;) So posing issues whould be the firts thing you see. It is hard to believe, that short before a deadline, it becomes obvious: "oh crap, our figures don't bend correct."
When I make my body morphs, I usually spend anywhere from a few days to a week or two just posing and rendering, checking for anything that looks bad and I make note of that body area. Then I make morph corrections on those areas, add them to the figure, and test again. The problem is, if you don't know how to make a character or have a basic understanding of posing, how would do you expect to catch issues? With competing with Genesis 3 now, the very first thing I would do with the model is raise those arms. If the arm raise looks bad, then put a ticket in raise the red flag. But obviously some JCMs should go into the figure around the arms and hips/leg area because that will be where the majority of your issues will lie.
I can do that with my figures because the tech underlying the figure allows for those jcms and corrections to be projected into the clothing so the end user doesn't have to fix it. I think that's probably some of the aversion to JCMs in Poser, because if someone makes a custom shape or corrections, those have to be projected into the clothing. I don't think that feature is in the non-Pro version; but I wonder if they have something similar in the new version... it allows for more characters that are more than just a custom head morph.
But obviously some JCMs should go into the figure around the arms and hips/leg area because that will be where the majority of your issues will lie.
Pollution!!!! :) I think why people stay away from jcm's in Poser is because they do not copy across in clothing unless they are unhidden (I could be mistaken), and to look for all jcm's on a figure can be a mission. In Studio, anything that has a value, be it hidden or not, gets dynamically transferred via auto-fit, hense why jcm's are more commonly used, because it doesn't affect clothing since they are on the clothing as well.
Zev0 posted at 2:49PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238140
But obviously some JCMs should go into the figure around the arms and hips/leg area because that will be where the majority of your issues will lie.
Pollution!!!! :)
LOL, I have fun JCMs so my character can do a slight butt giggle when they walk ;)
Ye there are a hell of a lot of benefits to jcm's. It is only an issue if the software has an issue dealing with them and if it conflicts with other content. I am currently working on a jcm only driven product type thing.
What I miss in DS is the dependency editor
Care to elaborate? Pretty sure Daz has one. Property Hierchy perhaps?
on a side note......since poser is still using inj/rem tech, does anyone know how many free channels there will be in this figure for making morphs?...I know one major problem with v4/m4 is that they filled up quick, and you ended up with weird things happening when various morphs shared the same channel. Plus when you loaded them, it caused alot of bloat on the resources.
Only way around this is to use the Extensible Parameters (ExP) in Studio, which added additional channels for your product. Limited channels do suck. Some products used nearly all of them such as the perfect V4 series. Would be wise if Poser had such a thing if channel limits are still an issue.
Dependency Editor explained: Dependency editor in Poser does a simillar thing DS is doing with ERC freeze. The benefit for me in Poser is, that I have a graphic Ui to manage dependencies. So I can link e.g. morph "b" to morph "a" at a value of 0.75 and morph "c" at value: 1.00. I allways have a graph to it. that makes it more easy to me. ERC-Freeze is still cryptic to me. DAZ Tools mostley are not that intuitivley to understand. - for me, at least ;) So I am missing to have all the values that have to be in dependecy in one sight.
Well in studio you click on a parameter inside the Property Hierarchy, and all linked dependencies on a specific morph are in a drop down menu where you can add and modify. This vid shows where everything is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HKdAkxpC2s
You can use puppeteer for that. Doesn't give you a graph, but where you mouse is located over the assigned points gives you strength variables. What do you want this node feature for? Creating animations or Pose position presets?
Zev0 posted at 10:12PM Wed, 11 November 2015 - #4238165
You can use puppeteer for that. Doesn't give you a graph, but where you mouse is located over the assigned point gives you variables. What do you want this node feature for? Creating animations or Pose position presets?
I was hoping, it would give you the possibility to blend parameters nicley in. So you can use it for JCMs. Don't know if that can done. I imagined to have several JCM-parameters that could be mixed and blended in with each other. A system as you know it from material nodes, bur you organize morph parameters that way instead. ***sorry, if that sounds confusing to you. I have lots of imaginations, but less of tech knowlege and more less language skills to comunicate my ideas.
_ I imagined to have several JCM-parameters that could be mixed and blended in with each other._
Can be done on the current system. At the moment I am working on something that has 8 jcm's blended in, all linked to certain bend positions. You just need to understand how the basics of how the system works, then you can basically do whatever you want.
As the saying goes, it's not over till the fat lady sings! Lets see what we have in a week or two's time.
I think SM are more than aware how important the new figures are to the future of the software because Poser has to pose something and Daz has made it clear that from now on their figures will only work in Daz Studio. SM has to support the new figures now, it doesn't have a choice. Nerd3D has said that they will do that.
Personally I think that there are extremely good artists in the community who could have helped with the figures and who would have ensured that the sneak peak pictures had that WOW factor. Marketing fail. Too late now.
Poser has provided decent tools to enhance the figures though. HD morphing that can be injected easily. Matching centers to morphs to allow extreme morphing. I have already suggested a project group to make improvements to the figures to ensure a common standard. Hopefully we can get that of the ground.
There is years of life in V4 and M4. I was surprised to see the thread at Daz3D on the differences between V4 and and V7 turn into a debate over whether V7 provided any enhancements at all. The point that keeps on being made over again is that there is an enormous library of stuff for V4, but with new Vickys coming out every two years, all the vendors are doing is producing the same stuff over and over again for the new figures. Same Ole Same Ole. Keeps the dollars coming in I guess. I'm not sure, but If I've read it correctly bones, HD sculpting and matching centers to morphs could be applied to V4 and M4. They are already weight mapped and have a higher poly density equivalent to one sub division over V7. I don't think its a coincidence that the vast majority of celeb morphs are V4 or M4.
And of course there's the issue of Daz attempting to enforce even more control over where and how you get your future figures. Interesting times.
qaz posted at 6:11PM Sat, 14 November 2015 - #4238593
As the saying goes, it's not over till the fat lady sings! Lets see what we have in a week or two's time.
Yes.
I think SM are more than aware how important the new figures are to the future of the software because Poser has to pose something and Daz has made it clear that from now on their figures will only work in Daz Studio. SM has to support the new figures now, it doesn't have a choice. Nerd3D has said that they will do that.
Personally I think that there are extremely good artists in the community who could have helped with the figures and who would have ensured that the sneak peak pictures had that WOW factor. Marketing fail. Too late now.
Yes. There are lots of talented artists that could render the figures; however, I think the most important thing is getting vendors on board to show what could be done. Getting a major vendor on board for the preview would have went over much better.
Poser has provided decent tools to enhance the figures though. HD morphing that can be injected easily. Matching centers to morphs to allow extreme morphing. I have already suggested a project group to make improvements to the figures to ensure a common standard. Hopefully we can get that of the ground.
Marketing blurbs and how it actually works is two different things. Have you seen the HD morphs and setup yet? The matching center example had a major problem with the clothing fitting the figure unless the person neglected to transfer the joints to the clothing, which would be another marketing fail. Showing a dwarf with a bikini top falling off her isn't a good example of previewing the tech.
There is years of life in V4 and M4. I was surprised to see the thread at Daz3D on the differences between V4 and and V7 turn into a debate over whether V7 provided any enhancements at all. The point that keeps on being made over again is that there is an enormous library of stuff for V4, but with new Vickys coming out every two years, all the vendors are doing is producing the same stuff over and over again for the new figures. Same Ole Same Ole. Keeps the dollars coming in I guess.
Problem with the "there is still life in V4" and "I have a large library of V4" posts is that you haven't actually compared the differences... you just are justifying why you don't want to switch. Two seconds with raising V4's and V7's arms and you would instantly have your answer on one of the differences. That's actually comparing the figures.
I'm not sure, but If I've read it correctly bones, HD sculpting and matching centers to morphs could be applied to V4 and M4. They are already weight mapped and have a higher poly density equivalent to one sub division over V7. I don't think its a coincidence that the vast majority of celeb morphs are V4 or M4.
It's been noted that lower poly figures are easier to pose, rig, weightmap and animate. Many artists that work with zbrush can do amazing work with low poly figures with subdivision. Working with lower poly figures requires a shift in your workflow, most times people use high poly meshes as a crutch to make things. You make good characters once you learn how to manipulate a low poly cage.
And of course there's the issue of Daz attempting to enforce even more control over where and how you get your future figures.
Very incorrect. They are protecting the content that is sold which many a lot of content companies do already. But considering the DRM being included in the next version of poser, DAZ shouldn't be the one singled out in this conversation.
Male_M3dia posted at 12:55AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238619
But considering the DRM being included in the next version of poser, DAZ shouldn't be the one singled out in this conversation.
False. P11 has been announced to have a fully offline, never-phone-home activation procedure so it is a big step back from the sinister GameDev scheme (and, certainly, a huge political message against trends being enacted by DAZ).
chaecuna posted at 7:13PM Sat, 14 November 2015 - #4238622
Male_M3dia posted at 12:55AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238619
But considering the DRM being included in the next version of poser, DAZ shouldn't be the one singled out in this conversation.
False. P11 has been announced to have a fully offline, never-phone-home activation procedure so it is a big step back from the sinister GameDev scheme (and, certainly, a huge political message against trends being enacted by DAZ).
In which the licensing server is not done... so true. And DRM is DRM. It doesn't matter what features it has, it's still DRM.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management
Most of these figures have their own problems. V7s problem other than a deformed hip area (she wouldn't be able to have children) is that she is too low res. That is why all the V7 characters look the same. And its no good complaining and saying you need to combine HD morphing and sub div because DAZ WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO DO THAT. Normal maps are no use as they can't be altered.
Do please read the comments here: and here
I think Erogenesis has it right, certain areas of the figure should be denser poly. I look forward to seeing his new figure Lali. I would point out that the new Poser figures are low poly as well, but Poser has the tools for anyone to include HD details. We will have to see whether they work or not.
qaz posted at 6:17AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238686
Most of these figures have their own problems. V7s problem other than a deformed hip area (she wouldn't be able to have children) is that she is too low res. That is why all the V7 characters look the same. And its no good complaining and saying you need to combine HD morphing and sub div because DAZ WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO DO THAT. Normal maps are no use as they can't be altered.
Do please read the comments here: and here
I think Erogenesis has it right, certain areas of the figure should be denser poly. I look forward to seeing his new figure Lali. I would point out that the new Poser figures are low poly as well, but Poser has the tools for anyone to include HD details. We will have to see whether they work or not.
As I said if you know how to manipulate a low rez figure and the subd cage you can make whatever you want. Having more polygons doesn't make a person a better artist when most times all you are doing is moving mesh, not adding minute details. As far as the hip, comments like that are totally subjective and if you don't like a body part, then you would take it to a modeler and fix it the way you like. It wouldn't matter if it was high rez or not, you're just moving the polls around. Some forum comments you do have take with a grain of salt because most people haven't bothered to look at actual photo references or an anatomy book and going by what they think is right.. and usually they aren't; there are just too many variations of the human form to make statements as such.
The HD on the females don't bother me that much. You can tell the areas where the details are from the promo, but most importantly they aren't sculpting all kinds of muscle and wrinkles on the girls because that would take away from the resulting renders and the girls aren't presented in a way where you need massive amounts of body detail. When you consider photos of women are often airbrushed of detail, I wouldn't go crazy with HD on females anyway. The guys on the other hand need it for abs, muscle definition, etc. If you buy the male HD items you see a lot more work on them than the women.
Just like the unflattering images i've seen of superfly and the figures so far, it seems like people will not have a grasp on HD morphs as well. I'm envisioning a bunch of morphs that look no better than a stock V4 made with dials, but blowing out the memory in a scene by people choosing just to move the nose and cheek around on a 500K poly subdivided figure because they haven't got the basics on custom character development.
Male_M3dia posted at 1:09PM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238623
In which the licensing server is not done... so true. And DRM is DRM. It doesn't matter what features it has, it's still DRM.
The discussion on RDNA about the program registration procedure is clear and unequivocal.
You sound somewhat.... "upset". Why? anything related to the lot of Studio users posts on many forums (including DAZ) about reducing buys, postponing them, wait-and-see, asking for refunds? the bottom line is starting to be hit, doesn't it? this is one of the evil effects of DRM: DRM hurts sales more than warez do.
chaecuna posted at 7:40AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238692
Male_M3dia posted at 1:09PM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238623
In which the licensing server is not done... so true. And DRM is DRM. It doesn't matter what features it has, it's still DRM.
The discussion on RDNA about the program registration procedure is clear and unequivocal.
You sound somewhat.... "upset". Why? anything related to the lot of Studio users posts on many forums (including DAZ) about reducing buys, postponing them, wait-and-see, asking for refunds? the bottom line is starting to be hit, doesn't it? this is one of the evil effects of DRM: DRM hurts sales more than warez do.
LOL, not upset at all. I'm just stating what it is. DRM is DRM. I think more people are more upset trying to say that Poser's DRM isn't DRM or making it excuses for it going to be so much better, especially in light of the thread on that same forum where that DRM was deactivating user's registrations even though they were connected to the web. And they are certainly more forgiving when SM neglected to tell them that the DRM was even in the Game Dev product and the only way people found out was when the deactivations occurred and they finally admitted it. Meanwhile DAZ outlines what is coming, and is transparent about the fact that it is coming, and people (particularly those that aren't even buying the content) are ready to get the pitchforks.
When you objectively look at both products, they're doing pretty much the same types of DRM, except one does content and the other does the application, because that's what each sells. I doubt SM's method is truly permanent; if you have to update the app, you will most likely have to validate your license to get the download. And like other "issues" this will blow over like everything else. DRM hasn't stopped people from buying zbrush, adobe, modo, marvelous designer, tv show episodes from amazon, netflix, etc. It's not going to stop the average customer from buying content from DAZ so it's really a storm in a teacup.
qaz posted at 7:57AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238693
Its not about minute detail at all. The human face is bumpy !! If you are going to be able to attempt to reproduce that you need HD. Show me any V7 with any character at all.
For that matter, show me any V4 that has the bumps under the mouth and chin area. It has way more polys but no one bothers to make a custom morph with them. But if you manipulate the mesh in both you can get more detail. Lower poly morphs require you to exaggerate the cage more so the subdivision smooths the mesh to give you a more bumpy detail. If you're doing it like people in the industry then you use your modelling tool to make the higher details and the normal map. The main advantage of DAZ's HD morphs is that you can mix them together or take them at different strengths and they are UV independent. Not much has been said about the details of poser's tool so if it doesn't have those features, you're better off subdividing and using a normal or displacement anyway.
qaz posted at 4:22PM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238693
Its not about minute detail at all. The human face is bumpy !! If you are going to be able to attempt to reproduce that you need HD.
Disagree. You can easily get that level of detail with normal/bump or displacement maps without HD morphs. Are you just assuming or have you actually tried? I can show you examples of ridiculous face details that have no HD morphs, which are strictly driven by maps. People use HD differently. Some use it just for subtle details, others use it for extreme changes. All depends on their preference, product type and whether they want the details driven by materials, or via morphs.
So, I know I just came back to the world of Poser and just started the world of DAZ Studio, and that fact will likely make a lot of people not take my opinion on any of this seriously. That's fine, but here it is anyway.
No Poser/DAZ figure has ever looked real. It's not that they can't do it, mind you. You can get a lot of realism out of 10k polys in a real-time rendering engine like Unreal 4, so they could clearly do it with offline rendering, and especially offline PBR rendering like Cycles or something. They just don't want to, because realism is not what people buy. They buy a sort of stylized or idealized pretty.
Just look at the picture of Scarlett Johansson posted in this thread next to a picture of any Poser or DAZ figure from the same angle with similar lighting, and you will see what I mean. Scarlett, as beautiful as she is, will look haggard next to the render, precisely because minute facial detail (which could have been included with normal or displacement maps) was intentionally omitted. Better still, look at any of the celebrity look-alike models out there on the web next to their real life counterparts, and you'll see just how not-real the renders look. The little details are omitted because they tend to age the face, particularly on women. It's a truth that has been taught to portrait artists since the beginning of the genre.
When people say they want their figures to be realistic, 9 out of 10 times what they mean is that they want them to be believable. They want them to have a likeness of the person they represent if they are doing a portrait type piece, not a 1:1 recreation. They want plausibility, because as we all know, all art is abstraction to some degree, even in 3d.
I'm not saying it can't be very good. Just look at the CG Arnold in Terminator Genisys. That's bloody close to looking real (though in truth the hair especially leaves something to be desired). The figures, hair, clothes, etc. that we have to work with is nowhere near that level. It's not even on the level of the Neo vs. Agent Smith fight scene in The Matrix Reloaded. It's closer to the CG Superman that catches the airliner by the nose in Superman Returns, and you'll notice how far that particular effect was kept from the camera.
I love Poser and the DAZ figures, but they are not realistic.
I love Poser and the DAZ figures, but they are not realistic.
Again that is opinion. All depends on you rendering skills, and if ultra realism is your goal. In terms of physical structure, Genesis 2 and 3 can easily pass as realistic if rendered by somebody who can achieve it. The again, most are aiming for semi realism, and it's good enough for them. To achieve ultra realism, you need to understand mathematically how all materials work in relation to lighting, having all settings tweaked to perfection, and only use shapes aimed for realism. Hell, some movie studios still can't even get realism right. Here is a render of Darius 6 for G2M. Geometry wise, Genesis is very capable of emulating a realistic structure. All small details such as bending and rigging contribute to the end result.
Zev0 posted at 11:36AM Sun, 15 November 2015 - #4238739
Again I disagree. All depends on you rendering skills, and if ultra realism is your goal. In terms of physical structure, Genesis 2 and 3 can easily pass as realistic if rendered by somebody who can achieve it.
That looks good, but it does not look real. I mean no offense by that. Just look at the eyes. If you got a photo of a person to have that effect on the eyes, it would have to be retouched. It's just not what people look like.
Here's another example for the Reality site. Again, it looks good (the best example on that site, imo), but it does not look real. Matthew McConaughey does not look like this.
He looks like this.
Also note that the last two images are retouched for magazines, and they still don't have the somewhat fake look of even very good CG.
CG cannot create truly realistic skin. Perhaps it will in the future, but it can't yet.
That was a response to "CG cannot create truly realistic skin. Perhaps it will in the future, but it can't yet."
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Right now testers at RDNA admit, that there are pose and rigging issues with pauline. It is up to SM now to address it, why else do they have beta testers for? If SM won't listen, then nobody should complain about the ucoming figure bashing. All I can say is: told you so. SM just doesn't learn. let's hope fore the best. I do think, that Pauline T-stands looks acceptable and I am curious to work on her. That's a good start. and that's way more than we had in the past releases. SM must take more effort in the rigging and add an advanced JCM system like DAZ added on G3. This must be done, or SM figures will rust again in the Runtime backyard.