Well, I am sorely disappointed in Pauline. I say this as one of the more hopeful, wait-and-see advocates. Most of the figure is passable, but that elbow looks... Any second year university student could have rigged that elbow better.

Now I've got an improved Poser with some nice features, but no figure to use it with. There is nothing left to do on Roxie. Pauline is out of the race, so I think, I won't touch Poser untill ProjectE is out.

Razor42 posted at 7:21PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239197

I think you want this thread for speculation that starts with "I think..." ----->Insert random sky is falling or Evil Daz Empire speculation or what Daz3D are "going to do in the future" with nothing but intuition to guide you, type of statement <-----

And I think you read my post with the tone you wanted it to have to let you be snarky, rather than thinking about what was actually said. For reference: I actually approve of the move (or rather, likely move) to a cloud based business model for DAZ. I know that doesn't fit with the picture of my views that's you're trying to paint there, but it's true. DAZ would only be being smart by looking to the cloud for the future.

Also, when next you choose to chide someone for posting about topics you would like to see exclusively elsewhere, perhaps you should focus on the person bringing the topic into the thread you have deemed it inappropriate for, and not the person simply replying.

But then again, maybe your goal is to seem paternalistic, dismissive, and a bit prone to prejudging others' motives.

Xatren posted at 11:42AM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239190

Well, for what it's worth, I too believe DAZ will go cloud based for their content, just not with the model everyone seems to be thinking. All software companies are trying since Adobe proved it was viable, and the CG world is at the center of it. My company now pays for Autodesk entertainment creation suite subs and Adobe CC subs for the people that deal with the creative end (yay for me).

I personally think they are planning subscription based content, letting people pay a flat fee per month for X dollars (or ikely, points) worth of downloads, and pay extra for more. Maybe tiered subscriptions, with more points for higher levels of monthly fee, etc. That's just my speculation though.

However, anyone saying the cloud isn't coming in one form or another is just being willfully blind. It's too profitable and skewed in favor of the vendor for software companies not to try (and yes, assets are software).

@ Xatren I think everybody expects it to happen and can agree or disagree with the idea. What I observed was people more concerned that their existing content that they paid for being caught up in it, Clearly unless Daz gave everybody a refund for all purchases previous they can't touch the previous content like take it off you and rent it back. The Daz store reads if you own something already now so it is no big issue from Day..... you are on the system you suggest and anything past it is included. Without me getting shot down in flames new users will benefit from a system like that as they don't have a lot of content to begin with. Pricing would be the issue Adobe is 10 bucks a month my worry would be those who chug along on a tightrope and enjoy Daz and when can afford a little buy content so to commit to a monthly plan might not be an option and could affect those in the situation. I can't image the plan be 10 bucks either, Me I already cry when I see my monthly bank statement it never looks like much when you buy this here that there various sites and formats at 2 - 40-50 bucks on average but when the bank kindly put it in one pile each month it is a disgrace. True I can pass some on but buying for the future oh Joe Blogs will like this when chances are it will be a year before it is needed is stupid. If it was reasonable price I could see a benefit to the system after all I can't take it with me when I drop dead. If it ends up a 3 tier system Standard-Pro-Pipeline then that would just be a PITA but I reckon that will be the one.

Xatren go full passive aggressive on me if you like, honestly I don't mind :)

If you read my statement I was merely suggesting that your comment was rather OT and had been discussed in depth elsewhere. And in turn directing you to that font of er...wisdom. Whether you like cloud or not honestly doesn't really matter to me or change the fact that you're speculating about the future of the company Daz3D in a thread about figure releases, after the initial posters comment had been addressed in this thread and also in depth in the thread I directed you to.

My comments in context, were regarding the thread which is full of the things I described.

Razor42 posted at 8:01PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239209

Xatren go full passive aggressive on me if you like, honestly I don't mind :)

You either don't know what passive aggressive means, or hope that I don't. Either way, my behavior was (perhaps ovely) aggressive, but not in any fashion passive. Passive aggressive behavior is for children and cowards.

If you read my statement I was merely suggesting that your comment was rather OT and had been discussed in depth elsewhere. And in turn directing you to that font of er...wisdom. Whether you like cloud or not honestly doesn't really matter to me or change the fact that you're speculating about the future of the company Daz3D in a thread about figure releases, after the initial posters comment had been addressed in this thread and also in depth in the thread I directed you to.

My comments in context, were regarding the thread which is full of the things I described.

Your comments were clearly meant as I took them, and now you're just trying to say you never meant anything of the sort to avoid confrontation. That is passive aggressive behavior. At least have the courage of your convictions.

Here, take this for future reference.

EDIT: Link added.

_ Xatren I think everybody expects it to happen and can agree or disagree with the idea. _

I don't think "everybody" expects it by any stretch of the imagination. Anyone who really understands how a brokerage in this industry functions and makes money would know it would be a nightmare. Brokerages are nothing like a software company that sells just the software. Adobe and the others can do it because they are selling/renting a very limited volume of software and they own it all. Brokerages on the other hand carry products from hundreds of people and the brokerage itself only owns a fraction of any of those products. As your staff here how complex payouts already are without adding ongoing charges for products that come and go. And while your asking ask them how likely they are going to go to a cloud based system here. All they would need is a coder to create the download system to poser and studio right?

Khory_D posted at 9:17PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239220

_ Xatren I think everybody expects it to happen and can agree or disagree with the idea. _

I don't think "everybody" expects it by any stretch of the imagination. Anyone who really understands how a brokerage in this industry functions and makes money would know it would be a nightmare. Brokerages are nothing like a software company that sells just the software. Adobe and the others can do it because they are selling/renting a very limited volume of software and they own it all. Brokerages on the other hand carry products from hundreds of people and the brokerage itself only owns a fraction of any of those products. As your staff here how complex payouts already are without adding ongoing charges for products that come and go. And while your asking ask them how likely they are going to go to a cloud based system here. All they would need is a coder to create the download system to poser and studio right?

I don't think I agree with Xatren about DAZ being likely to go to a cloud based solution, but to play Devil's advocate, he did say people would spend points in his view. That means dollars in become points in buyers' pockets. Points in requires a back-end to send the points to the right merchant, and then the merchant requires a way to cash out on demand. Sounds complex, but Linden Labs already does it with Second Life, and if Linden abs can manage it, a competent company like DAZ definitely can.

Xatren posted at 9:19PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239217

Razor42 posted at 8:01PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239209

Xatren go full passive aggressive on me if you like, honestly I don't mind :)

You either don't know what passive aggressive means, or hope that I don't. Either way, my behavior was (perhaps ovely) aggressive, but not in any fashion passive. Passive aggressive behavior is for children and cowards.

If you read my statement I was merely suggesting that your comment was rather OT and had been discussed in depth elsewhere. And in turn directing you to that font of er...wisdom. Whether you like cloud or not honestly doesn't really matter to me or change the fact that you're speculating about the future of the company Daz3D in a thread about figure releases, after the initial posters comment had been addressed in this thread and also in depth in the thread I directed you to.

My comments in context, were regarding the thread which is full of the things I described.

Your comments were clearly meant as I took them, and now you're just trying to say you never meant anything of the sort to avoid confrontation. That is passive aggressive behavior. At least have the courage of your convictions.

Here, take this for future reference.

EDIT: Link added.

Calm the down, bro. Getting this worked up can't be good for you.

Razor42 posted at 9:22PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239209

Xatren go full passive aggressive on me if you like, honestly I don't mind :)

If you read my statement I was merely suggesting that your comment was rather OT and had been discussed in depth elsewhere. And in turn directing you to that font of er...wisdom. Whether you like cloud or not honestly doesn't really matter to me or change the fact that you're speculating about the future of the company Daz3D in a thread about figure releases, after the initial posters comment had been addressed in this thread and also in depth in the thread I directed you to.

My comments in context, were regarding the thread which is full of the things I described.

So you don't need my advice or whatever, but he's got your number on this one. Just let it go.

So anyway, back on topic...

Either SM will release a content update soon that fixes the nightmare that is Pauline's elbow, or this presents a great opportunity for a few good character artists to get together and do a really bang-up job on making a new female figure, exclusively for Poser, that uses all the most modern things in Poser 11. If handled well, with lots of early renders and threads on the community sites, the people that made it could really clean up.

Also, what is the deal with not putting Paul in? I mean, I know most people like to render girls (me included), but I really need an acceptable male figure. Even when it was current, M4 had issues.

Paul wasn't ready in time so he will be released later.

Zev0 posted at 10:19PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239240

Paul wasn't ready in time so he will be released later.

I would hate to see the sorry state Paul must have been in if Pauline's elbow was considered ready and he wasn't.

Time will tell if somebody can salvage these figures and make something usable. But the base in it's current state is pretty dissapointing and has really put off a lot of people.

I still lve you Xatren.

Let me just say this.

If my comment offended you, I sincerely apologise. I should of worded my response more appropriately to avoid misunderstanding or causing offense.

Keep it sweet guys and girls thanks. You have managed to come this far. Black__Days has suggested we get back on topic and I am not sure that is such a good idea either looking at the title of this thread as we will be back to product bashing and fighting in no time. So if it is Daz or Poser character related mesh,vendor,rendering etc it is all fine and a makes for a very interesting topic. Take a leaf out of Khory_D's book picking up on one of my posts and challenged the content of the dribble without the need to attack me personally.

To go back on topic.

Pauline has launched and she is now, I think everyone can agree, an actual release figure.

Personally I have seen some improvement from the early shots we have seen leaked, mainly with what's possible with morphing Pauline. From facial characteristics to scalability, there does seem to be some real possibilities for the figure in the hands of 3rd party developers.

The negatives are clearly the bending of the figure, it seems she is best posed in the T-pose, anything else tends to look a little awkward to say the least. Again this does seem to be being put out there as something that will be addressed in aftermarket products or left to the er 'Poser?' of Pauline to fix themselves.

The main issue is that Smith Micro, again, seems to be selling a figure based on what a 3rd party will be able to do later with it. Which seems to have a rather high risk factor considering how well this strategy has worked for them in the past.

This really does seem more of an attempt to make a new V4 type figure, rather than an equivalent modern figure such as the figures from Daz, that seem to offer a much more complete package for the end user. I believe this stems from a Poser cultural hang up that believes that most users see themselves as nuts and bolts creative tinkerers, that shun a load and click render scenario. On the other hand Daz3D figures seem to cover the broader market pretty well with diverse price points, If you just want a base to tinker, Genesis 3 figure bases are entirely free with zero investment required. Right through to a Pro version and separate morph packs for those that want a more out of the box solution with shall I say a more complete figure, without facing a learning curve of JCM's, weight mapping issues and crossed fingers waiting for a certain fix. There also is an almost unspoken guarantee from Daz that there figures will receive broad support from a diverse range of developers which is extremely important for buyer security.

So in effect Pauline is, as stated, a merchant resource, that will be dependant on gathering a market share to see any real success as a figure. The danger of this is that buyers may hold off of on any real investment in figure, while waiting to see what the 3rd party developers will bring to the table, and 3rd party developers may lose interest if initial products receive low sales of any initial offerings for Pauline. To be honest while 9 Pauline product offerings seems like a chunk, it really is quite low and I honestly don't expect to see 9 more offered today. And that is what is required to establish the market, follow through. If things go quiet now it could spell real danger for pauline's future. There needs to be a consistent delivery of products to encourage buy in and quell the nerves of customers who worry that Pauline may in fact not receive a full level of product support. Which is entirely to be expected when considering Poser figures history. What is released today may be the first small indicator of Pauline's future.

So in answer to the thread OP is Pauline a V7 killer, definitely not.

But Pauline's future as a potential V4 killer is possible and is in the hands of Poser users and the ability of the required aftermarket developers to fill the holes left by SM. And for that group to create a market segment for Pauline. And only time will decide their success in that.

@Razor42 Okay razor while the upgrade special is going does the new Poser have a load more useful features? I am sure you researched it completely I got absolute nightmare issue here(Not at rendo) so it will be weeks before I can even think about researching it. I use Poser for album covers and always found it does a great job. Nice deep renders I would like to continue doing so running PP2014 now. Not fussed about Pauline looks usable as would never be main anyway and like it has been said it is obvious vendors will turn out something worthwhile.

Well it depends, I guess, on your current workflows and what version you're upgrading from (I see you mention 2014) and what you would like to see improved from your current version. Think of the issues in your current workflow, do any of the new features move to fix that issue, that justify the price tag for you. Are you interested in an inline PBR renderer?

It kinda goes against my grain to attempt to sell you Poser 11 in the Daz Studio Forums but here goes ;D

Here are some of the main things that are getting Poserphiles excited about Poser 11.

Superfly the much touted PBR Cycles renderer of Blender fame is now in built into Poser. This won't offer much for people who already have a prefered 3rd party renderer such as Reality or Octane but may knock the socks off those Firefly purists out there looking for some increased realism. The integrated Material presets that hold settings for both render engine are a nice touch and keep things clean. To be honest I have been less than impressed with some of the promo material for Superfly, flat jade dragons and fake gold look king tut heads. But it's early days yet and have seen some mind blowing stuff done through Blender in the past. The downside is also if you don't have an Nvidia GPU you may see longer render times.

The OpenGL Realtime toon preview and render with Geometric edge seems to have good possibilities for Toon render fans.

Finally moving the library away from Adobe Flash to what I believe is now Javascript based. The quote was "people in California have moved away from building with Adobe bricks"

Adaptive rigging looks interesting but I haven't seen a convincing use of this either as yet.

HD morphing through the morph brush on SubD figure. Again haven't seen this used. But it sounds good in theory.

All up if you want my actual honest personal opinion, I won't be purchasing it, as I really don't see the value for the price tag anymore in consideration of what the direct competition is offering. Plus Kai Krause was an insane genius with UI design, sometimes I can't decide if the Poser UI is genius or just insane.

Really you need to spend a little time assessing the new features and how they may benefit your own workflow or not. And make a decision based from there. I would tend to hold off for a bit even if you're tempted to give time for any bugs that were rushed out the door to come to light and for people to have time to show what the new features can do also which may sway your final decision. Poser is a tool and it's use is the most important aspect of it's suitability to task. There is no point me recommending you a reflex hammer for demolishing concrete slabs.

Did that sound unbiased enough for you? ;) I hope it may of been of some help, now I need to go take a long scalding shower.

PS: I also hope the Nightmare Issue isn't as serious as it sounds.

Razor42 posted at 6:23PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239279

PS: I also hope the Nightmare Issue isn't as serious as it sounds.

Very serious Razor! Worse than I thought. Studio had break in still waiting for full details but not good at all. I have only been there once in last 3 years but own it and it is usually occupied or eye kept on it. We have one name at least. Looks like a few individuals are going to be sucking custard through a straw for the rest of their natural lives in order to receive their sustenance.

LPR001 posted at 6:33AM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239293

Studio had break in still waiting for full details but not good at all.

Dude, sorry to hear that. Was the stuff they took insured at least?

Ah man that sucks, hope you get it sorted.

chaecuna posted at 4:41PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239160

RHaseltine posted at 11:40PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239139

chaecuna posted at 3:30PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239123

captive in the cloud

There's no "cloud" in DS.

My DAZ 3D LibrarydatacloudSKUNUMBERruntimetexturesARTISTNAMEPRODUCTNAME notice the "CLOUD" directory name.

Come on, a document tagged "Evil Plans for World Domination" is what I would expect in a "Pinky and the Brain" episode, not in real life; for further info, see "freudian slip". Next time you are looking for a name of a directory that does not give away your plans use a GUID.

The cloud stuff was just marketing - it was also in some of the messages in the first beta, which led to a lot of confusion as people assumed that mean DS was going to require internet access to run, but has now largely been removed (see the change log). DS and the Connect system are going to be even less cloudy than Adobe Creative Cloud, which at least requires occasional online checks for license validity. The folder name isn't a slip revealing any future (or past) plans.

Black__Days posted at 11:18AM Fri, 20 November 2015 - #4239241

Zev0 posted at 10:19PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239240

Paul wasn't ready in time so he will be released later.

I would hate to see the sorry state Paul must have been in if Pauline's elbow was considered ready and he wasn't.

If I remember the Book of Genesis correctly, Paul was created from one of Pauline's elbows. Or something like that

diogenese19348 posted at 11:41AM Sat, 21 November 2015 - #4239781

Black__Days posted at 11:18AM Fri, 20 November 2015 - #4239241

Zev0 posted at 10:19PM Tue, 17 November 2015 - #4239240

Paul wasn't ready in time so he will be released later.

I would hate to see the sorry state Paul must have been in if Pauline's elbow was considered ready and he wasn't.

If I remember the Book of Genesis correctly, Paul was created from one of Pauline's elbows. Or something like that

Lol :D

Though I've complained to SM about its figures for years, the figures are not the reason I buy Poser. It's the other things that draw me in, like the ability to create my own dynamic clothing, morph brush, etc. Having said that, I won't be buying Poser this time around - not because of the figures (which are disappointing as far as the bending), but because Daz Studio is becoming my go to program, much as I didn't intend it to. Do I wish I could use my own dynamic clothing in DS? Oh yes I certainly do and I'll keep hoping that someday I can, but my copy of PoserPro 2012 and 14 can still do all that for me. I don't need the new Cycles engine - Iray works great for me and I find the materials very easy to make and manipulate. Even tho I've gotten used to Poser's material room in recent years, I still think it's much more difficult than it has to be and is IMVHO the number one stumbling block to anyone who wants to use Poser to make images. Not everyone needs to use the setup room, the hair room or other functions, but sooner or later one is going to have to use the material room. It's not only hard to use, but there's pretty much zero documentation on how to use it. I was also disappointed that I can't use the last few versions of Daz figures in Poser. I'm not blaming anyone. A business decision is just that and I won't second guess it for either side. I just know it's not supported, so I'll hold onto my money this time around :).

After all that, I still think it serves no purpose to bash the new Poser figures. They are exactly what most of us expected them to be. We should leave it at that. It just breeds more ill will amongst the Daz/Poser feuders (which has gotten really distasteful on both sides).

Laurie

While I like the general shape of Pauline, and the incorporation of some of the new P11 features into her rig, from everything I've read it seems that she wasn't really ready to be released yet. For example, the way the elbows bend really doesn't do the tech of the figure justice, and should have been much better for release. There are several people working on "fixing" her, but IMHO those are things that should be a part of the base figure, to better support the creation of standardized content for her

In general, it really feels to me as if SM pushed this release (both software and Pauline) out the door too soon. I'm also amazed at the lack of many quality renders from Superfly. When DS 4.8 was released, there were a lot of great Iray renders being posted by many different people within a few days (several withing a few hours). The best Superfly renders seem to be coming from less than 10 people. It makes me wonder if it's really that hard to get quality shaders/lighting/renders out of Superfly, or is it just a general lack of any pertinent skills among most Poser users (or is it that the number of people using Poser has dropped significantly).

I spent a lot of time lurking and reading everything in the Poser forums, and finally decided not to upgrade to PP11, for many of the same reasons that LaurieA noted. Of course the lack of Genesis 3 support was a big factor in the final decision, but the general feeling that it wasn't quite ready for release was a big factor as well. I also didn't feel comfortable with the current figures and their general support for them going forward. Pauline is interesting, but will the issues with the base figure make vendor support more difficult? I guess only time will tell.

I wish the best of luck to SM and the early adopters!. Maybe after all the wrinkles get ironed out, I'll decide to upgrade. But for now, DS/Iray, Carrara/Octane, and PP 2014 give me everything I need. I've really enjoyed using DS with Iray, I just wish DS had dynamic hair, dynamic cloth (other then Optitex), something like Posers morph brush, and physics.

"Not everyone needs to use the setup room, the hair room or other functions, but sooner or later one is going to have to use the material room. It's not only hard to use, but there's pretty much zero documentation on how to use it. was also disappointed that I can't use the last few versions of Daz figures in Poser. I'm not blaming anyone. A business decision is just that and I won't second guess it for either side. I just know it's not supported, so I'll hold onto my money this time around :)."

Well there is a thread in which some properly lit images of figures rendered in the new Cycles based engine are being posted.

But ,as you Might have guessed, it seems that the useful knowledge of how to get decent indoor lighting with the new engine ,resides in the head of Bagginsbill and his few Disciples.

I am sure this will change over time as more users learn the new engine& tutorials are posted online but as of now its like the "good old early days" of firefly, where you have to forget everything you once thought you knew.

If DS had a subd import tool or a morph brush or an easier dependency editor, I'd never bo back to Poser again. I don't see any use for Pauline's new figure tools. I haven't seen any convincing Superfly renders yet either. This could be the last Poser I've ever bought.

-Timberwolf- posted at 11:48AM Tue, 08 December 2015 - #4243097

If DS had a subd import tool or a morph brush or an easier dependency editor, I'd never bo back to Poser again. I don't see any use for Pauline's new figure tools. I haven't seen any convincing Superfly renders yet either. This could be the last Poser I've ever bought.

I know what you mean. I'm hoping for dynamic cloth where I can use my own meshes and a morph brush in DS myself ;). Small note to the DS developers...wanna win over Poser people? Give us the stuff Poser people have that DS doesn't. Ya won't convert everybody, but you'll get the lion's share I'm thinkin. LOL

Laurie

LaurieA posted at 7:26PM Tue, 08 December 2015 - #4243174

-Timberwolf- posted at 11:48AM Tue, 08 December 2015 - #4243097

If DS had a subd import tool or a morph brush or an easier dependency editor, I'd never bo back to Poser again. I don't see any use for Pauline's new figure tools. I haven't seen any convincing Superfly renders yet either. This could be the last Poser I've ever bought.

I know what you mean. I'm hoping for dynamic cloth where I can use my own meshes and a morph brush in DS myself ;). Small note to the DS developers...wanna win over Poser people? Give us the stuff Poser people have that DS doesn't. Ya won't convert everybody, but you'll get the lion's share I'm thinkin. LOL

Laurie

Yup, dynamic cloths, how could I forget that. We do need dynamic hair too. Poser's dynamic has an issue with collisions, but is better with animating. Can I have best of both worlds please?

DS has two dynamic hair plugins that I'm aware of - Garibaldi and Look At My Hair. One of them is on my wishlist :).

Laurie

-Timberwolf- posted at 12:59PM Wed, 09 December 2015 - #4243097

If DS had a subd import tool...

What is this "subd import tool"?

prixat posted at 2:39PM Wed, 09 December 2015 - #4243323

-Timberwolf- posted at 12:59PM Wed, 09 December 2015 - #4243097

If DS had a subd import tool...

What is this "subd import tool"?

You can make morph targets on a sub division level. (No displacement or normal map) DS has that allready, but only for certified vendors.

thanks

LaurieA posted at 3:04PM Wed, 09 December 2015 - #4243270

DS has two dynamic hair plugins that I'm aware of - Garibaldi and Look At My Hair. One of them is on my wishlist :).

Laurie

Strictly speaking they aren't, at least currently, dynamic. They are strand-based (in 3Delight) but they don't respond to gravity, wind or movement - the hair has to be groomed manually.

RHaseltine posted at 11:56PM Wed, 09 December 2015 - #4243418

Strictly speaking they aren't, at least currently, dynamic. They are strand-based (in 3Delight) but they don't respond to gravity, wind or movement - the hair has to be groomed manually.

Oh, I see. Well it's still something I'd want anyway....for making my own hairstyles, fur on animals, eyebrows and body hair, etc.

For LAMH, if you are rendering in NVIDIA Iray, the team that did it recommends exporting as Fibermesh instead of obj.