Okay, this is a strange one.  I want to add extra posable eyes to a figure, poseable in that the eyes can open and close.  I know I will need to match the skin texture to the face I am adding them to, but I just want to be able to add them easily.  Any ideas how to start on something like this?  If someone wants to create this, it would be cool to be able to have it set up to add 1 (third eye!) 2 or 4 eyes.  I am looking to add 4 smaller eyes above the regular ones on a drider (spider centaur) type character.  Thanks!

3 ways to do this.

Adding the eyes as smart props to the interior of the existing head and creating master dials that dial in the eyes in various configurations with morphs that create the cavities to house the eyes, if necessary. The transforms for the eyes could be controlled by additional dials. Doing this as props might pose some challenges creating the crosstalks. Maybe not. I say might because typically you would...

Do this as conformers. Although parented props behave very much as conformers.

The conformer could be an entirely new head or just the eyes, as above. Crosstalk can be made to work in either direction. You can drive a dial in the host figure via a dial in the conformer, and vice versa as typical.

Or you could do this via adding geometry switching to the host figure. Very tedious bit of cr2 editing here. Ajax's old EasyPose Underground has features to aid in setting up geometry switching. I've only ever set up switching in one instance, in that case doing so via text editing for geometry switching fingertips in conforming hands. Not for the feint of heart type task. I didn't have EPU at the time. Unfortunately EPU is no longer available, it's a standalone app. Seems to work fine in win10. Back in the day it used to go for quite a bit of money (over 100 dollars IIRC) at RDNA, and does quite a bit more than just cascading ERC. Anyway, geometry switching creates a dial that calls a new obj to replace the existing actor. While the rigging remains the same for that actor, or at least the parent in the case of a conformer, it need not be the same vertice number and can call on it's own set of morphs. The new geometry must match along the actor weld seams however, if applicable, and you want bending.

None of these are what you would consider easy solutions, mostly depending on your customization comfort levels.

Geometry switching conforming hands... circa Poser 8

Apparently they used to sell EPU here. I distinctly recall it being more expensive at RDNA.

Anyway, if I were to do what you are looking to do I would definitely try it as a conformer. With certain advances in Poser, complex dial relations in conformers are much easier to get working.

Given one of those Cambrian predators has now been confirmed as having a large, dorsal third-eye, the retro-reptilian tuatara (sp?) still has a 'semi-functional' third eye under translucent scalp skin, and our pineal is thought to have evolved from similar, odd numbers of eyes would be *good*...

https://phys.org/news/2022-07-million-year-old-fossilized-brains-stanleycaris-prompt.html

https://phys.org/news/2020-11-million-year-old-five-eyed-fossil-reveals-arthropod.html

Crafting integrated eyes for a figure looks hard, but have you considered cutting chunks of face off an existing, smaller-eyed figure ( perhaps just scaled ?) and parenting them to target's brow ?

Sorta like a half-mask ? Or night-vision goggles ??

I'm sorry, I wanted a centre-line third-eye for a WIRS' 'Three-Eyed Flying Monkey' --With 3rd-eye's lids closing sideways-- but never found a stand-alone lidded eye that was not obviously 'handed'.

"I'm sorry, I wanted a centre-line third-eye for a WIRS' 'Three-Eyed Flying Monkey' --With 3rd-eye's lids closing sideways-- but never found a stand-alone lidded eye that was not obviously 'handed'."

An eye configuration with lids that are not "handed", and also separate geometry. My old Cthog figure (again, circa Poser 8). Easy enough to extract them out with lids. Of course you'd have to possess the figure, sorry my old Poser figures aren't available any longer. Some modeling/morphing skill would also be handy unless you just want to half ass hack it.

They were on ShareCG but I pulled my stuff from there. You can PM me if you want a copy. They are in the process of reconstruction, or at least polishing up, so distribution of the old versions isn't really a concern. Much better at modeling, texturing, and Poserizing now.

Sorry for the OT...

.

NikKelly posted at 8:19 AM Fri, 19 August 2022 - #4442948

Crafting integrated eyes for a figure looks hard, but have you considered cutting chunks of face off an existing, smaller-eyed figure ( perhaps just scaled ?) and parenting them to target's brow ?

Sorta like a half-mask ? Or night-vision goggles ??

That's actually what I was thinking at first. Cutting up a head, removing everything but the eyes and the area around them, or making it all invisible, and then going from there. I just have so little experience on the modelling side I don't even know where to start. I can use the morph tool pretty decently in Poser, so I could make the eye areas, but I just have no idea how to cut off and up the head like that. Heck, I'd be willing to pay for a product that is just the eye figures with lids, since I have so little experience with this kind of modification.

Ok.

I made a fast and dirty conforming third eye for La Femme.

What I did step by step was 

Extract one of LF eyeballs and regroup it internal name 3rdEye.

Moved it into position on her forehead and then created a "socket" morph in LF's head to house the new eyeball

I also painted a socket texture over her existing one in Mudbox/photoshop and blended it with her base texture...

Next, with the new eyeball selected I entered the set up room and loaded the LF dev rig and chose the head hierarchy (just the head, neck, chest, waist, and hip actor hierarchy) to add to the new figure. I then added a new bone for the new eye as a child of the head, I positioned the bone as you would for a typical eye rig. In this case I didn't need to revisit the rig in the joint editor because I was very careful aligning the new bone and the rotations turned out fine.

I named the new bone matching internal name as the new group existing in the eye extraction (3rdEye). 

I then exited the set up room and saved my new figure to the library. Started a fresh scene, loaded a new LF, applied the socket morph, loaded the 3rdEye figure and conformed it...

All of this took about 45 minutes.

Obviously the results would be much better if I had used HD morphs and spent a little more time with it. If I had spent a week on it it would get pretty outrageously elaborate. This stuff is easy. I just explained how to do it.

If you need an eye model just PM me. I have a couple simple ones that I made laying around. Uv mapped. Typical Poser eyes with cover. No credit necessary. The textures are a different story, I hang on to the ownership of those... so on your own there.

Nice, I am going to try my idea I had at work and see what I can come up with.  Since I want the ability to open and close the eye, this solution won't be as effective, especially since I want to add 4 eyes.  :D

Nephanor posted at 2:24 PM Fri, 19 August 2022 - #4442969

Nice, I am going to try my idea I had at work and see what I can come up with.  Since I want the ability to open and close the eye, this solution won't be as effective, especially since I want to add 4 eyes.  :D

Nice. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. :D

Sorry I wasted my time.

primorge posted at 3:57 PM Fri, 19 August 2022 - #4442970

Nice. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. :D

Sorry I wasted my time.

No no, I am sorry you spent your time on it.  I didn't mean to dismiss your work or to encourage you to waste your time.  My idea is going to take more work....not sure how much more it will take.  In the end I may end up taking your idea and just making two morphs, one eye open, one eye closed.

Nephanor posted at 4:31 PM Fri, 19 August 2022 - #4442974

primorge posted at 3:57 PM Fri, 19 August 2022 - #4442970

Nice. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. :D

Sorry I wasted my time.

No no, I am sorry you spent your time on it.  I didn't mean to dismiss your work or to encourage you to waste your time.  My idea is going to take more work....not sure how much more it will take.  In the end I may end up taking your idea and just making two morphs, one eye open, one eye closed.

Oh you mean like this...

If I really wanted to waste my time I could just make 4 smaller eyes and do the same exact thing.

And it's not a hack, it's a working conformer.

But best of luck, and maybe some of this was useful. It entertained me doing it for a second.

Mine is done. Yours remains to be seen.

The eye's gotta be on a stalk!

ghostship2 posted at 10:43 PM Fri, 19 August 2022 - #4442989

The eye's gotta be on a stalk!

Actually more easily done  ;)

Not constrained by the existing topology, or having to rely on unpredictable subdivision morphs (although the one I posted is morphed at base res, more eyes would either require subd morphs if on the forehead or moving a row of eyes down below her existing eyes, more polys there)... Just requires a few more bones. Tentacles are a specialty lol.

From Beyond, One of my favorite flicks BTW Ghostship, good call  :)

TwiztidKidd posted at 10:12 AM Fri, 19 August 2022 - #4442953

.

Woah! I'm loving it! 

primorge posted at 6:16 PM Fri, 19 August 2022 - #4442978

Nephanor posted at 4:31 PM Fri, 19 August 2022 - #4442974

primorge posted at 3:57 PM Fri, 19 August 2022 - #4442970

Nice. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. :D

Sorry I wasted my time.

No no, I am sorry you spent your time on it.  I didn't mean to dismiss your work or to encourage you to waste your time.  My idea is going to take more work....not sure how much more it will take.  In the end I may end up taking your idea and just making two morphs, one eye open, one eye closed.

Oh you mean like this...

If I really wanted to waste my time I could just make 4 smaller eyes and do the same exact thing.

And it's not a hack, it's a working conformer.

But best of luck, and maybe some of this was useful. It entertained me doing it for a second.

Mine is done. Yours remains to be seen.

Wow!

ghostship2 posted at 10:43 PM Fri, 19 August 2022 - #4442989

The eye's gotta be on a stalk!

Awesome

primorge posted at 6:41 AM Fri, 19 August 2022 - #4442941

Apparently they used to sell EPU here. I distinctly recall it being more expensive at RDNA.

Anyway, if I were to do what you are looking to do I would definitely try it as a conformer. With certain advances in Poser, complex dial relations in conformers are much easier to get working.

Easy-Pose Underground only reached the 1.2.4 version @ Renderosity RDNA was selling the 2.0.0.1 version @ about 20$ until it was taken down by DAZ.  The "in-official" versions went up to the final version of 2.0.0.6 Actually the best release Ajax made with most features and fully compatible with WM figures. One of the most indispensable apps for good Poser model creations.

Jeez. Would love to get my hands on that. I have 1.2.4... haven't used it for anything though. When I set up the EasyPose on my tentacled figure above I used PhilC's ATU scripts. And did geometry switching by hacking the cr2. Now I'm inclined to set up EasyPose manually with the DE... but I can see with a very elaborately rigged figure like the one I showed earlier that EPU would become useful again. Most of the things in EPU can be done via Poser itself now or Netherwork's scripts (I own all of them I think; I won Spawn as a prize at RDNA and bought the rest before they were pulled by Rendo). Unfortunately ATU doesn't work in Poser 11 and PhilC is retired.

ATU would be most useful for Geometry Switching, at least for me, at this point.

You state that the later versions of EPU works with weight mapped figures but I'm sceptical if that would be the case with Switching and weight mapped figures. It's my understanding that Geometry Switching and Weight Mapping are Poser antithetical.

Since I've been lured back to this thread it occurs to me that this statement by Nephanor indicates he's not aware of subtractive difference morphing.

Since I want the ability to open and close the eye, this solution won't be as effective, especially since I want to add 4 eyes.  :D

In the end I may end up taking your idea and just making two morphs, one eye open, one eye closed.

He's under the assumption that having one state or the other would only be possible to avoid morph telescoping, thus not possible to create a blink morph over top the existing socket morph. Or that's how it reads, saying it's not a possibility. This isn't the case as is shown by my animation. It need not be either or but can be a natural blend of the 2 that will work in animation without telescoping. A Blink another words. You just need to know how to do it.

Probably best not to assume the skill level of someone who has been doing this for a long time, or make assumptions that something isn't possible just because you're not aware of the possibility. Hence my negative reaction. I would have been inclined to show him how, but his dismissive attitude indicated otherwise.

Now where was I... oh yeah.

Typo correction; 

*ATU would be most useful for Geometry Switching, at least for me, at this point.

Meant EPU

giving you a little idea on how the surface of EP v.2+ looks like . Geometry switching is tricky but sure would work for 3rd ++ eyes you would need to start with the full version then reduce the amount of eyes, you need to keep an eye on the Texture mapping not to loose these when switching.

 

Thank you, Primorge. That pic shook a memory loose. I had a hunt through my sprawling Poser / CAD archive, found Cthog in 'PO_sorted', zoo alien...

Looks interesting. I'll give it a whirl when the need arises. I think for an existing commercial figure and redistribution purposes conformers and morphs would be the way to go. That is unless Geometry Switching is injectable? Which actually wouldn't surprise me... but I think it would have to be a hand crafted inject.

Now for a standalone cr2 that you are making yourself? Very useful. I can see it coming up for me in the near future with some things I have percolating and languishing neglected. That is if I don't go insane or drop dead first lol.

Thanks for the screencaps. Interesting figure you have loaded there also :)

NikKelly posted at 1:54 PM Sun, 21 August 2022 - #4443097

Thank you, Primorge. That pic shook a memory loose. I had a hunt through my sprawling Poser / CAD archive, found Cthog in 'PO_sorted', zoo alien...

I'll PM you when I put the new version out ;)

That one's sort of embarrassing now but hey live and learn. Plus Poser has come a long way since then. Plus the tools outside Poser.

How to create a subtractive or difference morph...

I use PML for this... you could use GoZ or ADPs morph exporter/importer to do the same thing. Assuming you don't have any of these here's how to do it within Poser manually. It's pretty simple.

I'll use my eye socket morph as an example.

Ok so I have the morph that I created for the eye socket and I want to create a blink for the eye socket. This poses a problem because if I build my blink by using the eye socket morph active (the only way you can really do it) the eye socket morph will be baked into the blink morph that I created over top of it. The result being that when I dial the eye socket to 1 and then dial my blink to 1 the eye socket morph, which is baked into the blink, will double up and cause a horrible result not at all like what I intended. Morph telescoping.

The solution to this is to build the blink morph with the socket morph dialed to 1 (obviously)

Load or dial in your new blink morph to 1, which results in the telescoping

Dial the socket morph to -1

Looks like crap right? Not at all the right result.

Export that result as a wavefront object. So socket at -1, blink at 1, export. Leave everything unchecked in the export options. Make sure that only those 2 morphs are active -1/1 and the figure is completely 0.

If you want it as a FBM dial check include existing groups in polygon groups.

Name the morph blink

Export.

Reimport as morph target via target actors properties or via figure menu: load full body morph.

0 out the original blink morph you created, or just delete it. You won't need it.

With the socket morph at 1 dial the new blink morph to 1. A working blink.

You subtracted the baked in socket, baked out the blink, and reapplied it.

A Subtractive or difference morph. The uses for this are endless.

I suppose you could skip the whole export part and just spawn a new morph but I always use the export method. Plus it reminds me to tidy up and keep my naming conventions orderly. There might even be a function in the morph brush for this. I don't know, I never ever use it. I use Blender, Mudbox, or Zbrush for morphing. I don't think I've even touched the morph brush in over 5 years, probably way more.

I appreciate the help primorge, I am VERY new to adding this kind of morph, and after a lot of experimentation, not sure I have enough skill, or even if it's possible.  What I am trying to make is a face similar to the character of Rachnera from the anime Monster Masume, a Spider girl.  She has a normal human face, but with 4 small extra eyes above the 'base' eyes, but VERY close to the eyebrows.  When I tried to do a morph before, using Poser's built in morph tool as that is all I am familiar with, whenever her eyebrows were posed in an expression, they messed up the mesh of the eye 'holes' which was very frustrating.  After a couple hours of trying, it didn't work the way I wanted it to, and just kept messing up the work I was doing.  Honestly, a separate eye figure that just include a simple skin texture I can match to the base skin would be easier to work with at my skill level.  I may have been rendering for years, but I haven't done much with the creation side of things, where I barely have touched it.

I see. Yes. My method would require quite a bit of extra adjustment morphs to work with expressions. Obviously with just one eye placed in the forehead these adjustment morphs would be easier to create. 4 small ones very close to the eyebrows would be tough, if not impossible. However, I've just looked at Rachnera and the eyes in fact aren't very close to her eyebrows, this could be done with the method I've shown earlier. The very high row of eyes would be tricky because of so few polys, typically in this area on Poser figures, especially ones that are designed for subdivision, for the blinks. It would require subdivision morphs. Rachnera is a toon, which makes it less than ideal to shoehorn such a thing onto a more standard figures anatomy...

Thoughts on the appliance method

Which figure are you making the eye appliance for? I'm pretty decent at retopo... I could maybe help in some way. Not that I'm saying that I could do this for you, that's more work than I have time for with my own personal things, but I have a pretty decent idea of what to expect through the process...

Let's just assume that in order for it to be redistributable, which it probably doesn't need to be but for the sake of example, the brow would need to be retopologized, uv mapped, textured and ideally have some morphs. You would also need some eye models. It would also require a transmap mask that blends the edges of the appliance to the underlying topology. Hopefully in a convincingly seamless manner, which is a big hopefully considering expressions and contemporary rendering methods that can produce artifacts with such a blend with such an appliance under the stresses of expressions (a bit of conjecture here, but better to err on the side of caution)...

My point is, the thing you describe is quite a bit of work even for someone who is practiced with such things... and there will be pitfalls to expect. 

Not saying it's impossible, because it's not, but requires a bit of work. Could I do it as it looks in the picture above? Yes. Thereabouts. It would be some work. Can I help you to do it as it looks in the picture above? Yes. But only in advice, sorry there but I have work and a more than full art making schedule on top. How set are you on this idea? And why does it need to blink if it's just for your own use and not being animated?

primorge posted at 5:19 AM Mon, 22 August 2022 - #4443122

I see. Yes. My method would require quite a bit of extra adjustment morphs to work with expressions. Obviously with just one eye placed in the forehead these adjustment morphs would be easier to create. 4 small ones very close to the eyebrows would be tough, if not impossible. However, I've just looked at Rachnera and the eyes in fact aren't very close to her eyebrows, this could be done with the method I've shown earlier. The very high row of eyes would be tricky because of so few polys, typically in this area on Poser figures, especially ones that are designed for subdivision, for the blinks. It would require subdivision morphs. Rachnera is a toon, which makes it less than ideal to shoehorn such a thing onto a more standard figures anatomy...

Thoughts on the appliance method

Which figure are you making the eye appliance for? I'm pretty decent at retopo... I could maybe help in some way. Not that I'm saying that I could do this for you, that's more work than I have time for with my own personal things, but I have a pretty decent idea of what to expect through the process...

Let's just assume that in order for it to be redistributable, which it probably doesn't need to be but for the sake of example, the brow would need to be retopologized, uv mapped, textured and ideally have some morphs. You would also need some eye models. It would also require a transmap mask that blends the edges of the appliance to the underlying topology. Hopefully in a convincingly seamless manner, which is a big hopefully considering expressions and contemporary rendering methods that can produce artifacts with such a blend with such an appliance under the stresses of expressions (a bit of conjecture here, but better to err on the side of caution)...

My point is, the thing you describe is quite a bit of work even for someone who is practiced with such things... and there will be pitfalls to expect. 

Not saying it's impossible, because it's not, but requires a bit of work. Could I do it as it looks in the picture above? Yes. Thereabouts. It would be some work. Can I help you to do it as it looks in the picture above? Yes. But only in advice, sorry there but I have work and a more than full art making schedule on top. How set are you on this idea? And why does it need to blink if it's just for your own use and not being animated?

It's being made for V4, since that's the main figure I use, especially with all the content I have for her.  And while Rachnera's eyes are further up in the anime, I have to put mine closer to the main eyes due to the hairline I have with the character being a bit lower than Ranch's.  That's where I am running into the problem more. I would appreciate any help I can get, but seriously if I can get something universal that I can use to do other things on other figures (like the idea of a 'prosthetic' eye I can attach to a figure) that is something I would pay money for, since there are other ideas rattling around in my head.

As for the blinking, well, each of the characters I make I use in my art, and are part of a shared narrative world, which I am working to make into a story series, so being able to make multiple renders with various expressions is important. I have a whole library of characters with bios and whole backstories and personalities, so I want to be able to make them able to look like they are real.

Got it. And V4 would be infinitely easier to create this for. With morphs alone no less. There's more than enough polys in her forehead to do this. As far as a universal multi eye prosthetic, that's a stretch but could be refit.

Anyway, here's a comparison of the topology for V4 and LF in the forehead area. Antonia is in there because this is just a recycled image from a different discussion about topology and expressions... as you can see there's quite a bit more to work with than with LF. You might consider a different hairstyle choice though. What's more important? The hair or the eyes? Knowing which hair you are using would also be a useful bit of info.

I'm gonna percolate on this. See what you come up with. Who knows? Especially with V4 I might get bored and throw this together... not promising but the prospect is a lot easier with V4. I wouldn't do it as a prosthetic though. I can do it more easily and more convincingly with conformers and morphs. I'm in the middle of some texture work for a character, and a lot of other things besides, and there's RL work, but I wouldn't be totally shocked if something might appear here at some time. If you're in a rush, I don't know.

My interest is piqued however.

Or someone like Summoner might appear and in a show off fashion put this together for you, essentially jumping in my grave lol... Then I might be compelled to try and outdo his. Which would work out great for you. This looks like something that would be up his alley. He still lurks about, closer than you might think ;)

Let's see what happens with your efforts, if nothing then who knows?