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Subject: Antonia - Opinions?


odf ( ) posted Mon, 27 October 2008 at 5:18 AM · edited Thu, 28 October 2021 at 1:18 PM

Content Advisory! This message contains nudity

file_416397.jpg

Some of you might seen her in my gallery. Antonia is an original human model I've been working on - with interruptions - for the last three years or so. The initial motivation was probably my frustration with the Poser characters available at the time. This made me turn to ZBrush and then Wings3D and experiment with character modeling.

Long story short - I think the geometry is close to being finished. She's rigged for Poser, although there's still a lot of fine-tuning to be done on the joint setups. Once I've finished the teeth and maybe done some more small fixes, I'll UV-map her and... well, what exactly?

See, the thing is, I'd be more than happy for people to have her, make lovely pictures and create content for her, some of which I might be able to use. But I have no ambitions to be a merchant, let alone invest all the hard work that would turn her into a product that might have the slightest chance to compete with the Victorias of this world. Actually, if Victoria 4 had been around in late 2005, I might have just bought her and never had the experience of 'rolling my own'.

Now, this is where - possibly - you guys come in. I can see myself doing the UV map and finishing the rigging as best I can, then put her up somewhere on the web as one of a million free item. If I'm lucky, maybe people will like her and make additional content for her. But, if some of the talented people on here take a liking to her, then maybe - just maybe - we could work together and make her really awesome.

Anyway, this thread is for critiques, comments, suggestions, offers of collaborations, strategical advice and just plain "Gimme, gimme!!!" shouts.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


momodot ( ) posted Tue, 28 October 2008 at 3:11 PM

I would love to see a nearly full procedural skin. Shading and local color could also be applied with overlay as well as the specific optical effects you are talking about I would think.



momodot ( ) posted Tue, 28 October 2008 at 3:13 PM

file_416544.jpg

Here is my first Poser 5 attempt at a procedural skin several years ago but I gave up on it... it was based on simplifying Face_Off's tutorial.



odf ( ) posted Tue, 28 October 2008 at 5:57 PM

phantom3D wrote: > Quote - You know I have found that basic straight forward rigging placed properly is usualy the best. I've toyed with all sorts of complicated rigging scemes and have found that the solutions that really worked were all simple basic changes. She looks very good to me so I'd stick with this rigging and make small changes in placement and settings till you're happy. But the shoulders look great to me, and that's quite an accomplishment, shoulders are very hard.

Well, when I said the joint setup was basic, I meant that I hadn't fine-tuned it much yet, not that I was planning to rig her in some complicated way. But it's very, very good to hear from a master like you that simple riggings work well. I think I still need to learn a lot to make them so, though. In my - limited - experience so far, it's fairly easy to get a few things right for demo poses like the one I showed a few posts above. But the real trick is to make everything work nicely together, and with that I'm still struggling.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


odf ( ) posted Tue, 28 October 2008 at 6:06 PM

bagginsbill wrote: > Quote - I wonder if it would be good to make this a "poster child" for a 100% (or nearly 100%) procedural human shader.

I could do a lot more detailed stuff with just a few masks. No need to do a high-res texture. I just need a few control masks for the figure, and then I'd drive all the effects from that.

That would be absolutely lovely. I'm a big fan of procedural textures.

I'll let you know as soon as I have a complete UV-map. At the moment, only the eyes, brows and lashes are mapped. While we're at it: is there a way to make good procedural iris and eyeball textures? I painted one in Gimp which is good enough for demo purposes, but something more detailed and accurate would be nice for closeups.
 

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


bagginsbill ( ) posted Tue, 28 October 2008 at 6:26 PM

Attached Link: http://www.runtimedna.com/mod/forum/messages.php?ShowMessage=307782

I did a simple (fewest nodes possible) iris a while back. Never finished working on that.


Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)


bagginsbill ( ) posted Tue, 28 October 2008 at 6:30 PM · edited Tue, 28 October 2008 at 6:31 PM

file_416548.jpg

We should probably start a new thread for procedural skin, or necropost in some older one as there have been several over the years.

I just did this shader, starting from scratch, not using VSS or anything. Just noodling in the material room. The tiny wrinkles of skin are eluding me. If I zoom in really close on this, it loses its effectiveness. (click for full size)

We'd need quite a few masks to get this looking good. Need to know where the skin is bumpy and where it isn't, where there should be more color variation, where there should be pores, and of course where are the pink bits?

Simon looks way strange without eyebrows. I think you'd still have to go with some kind of transmap for the eyebrows.


Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)


odf ( ) posted Tue, 28 October 2008 at 8:31 PM

bagginsbill wrote: > Quote - Simon looks way strange without eyebrows. I think you'd still have to go with some kind of transmap for the eyebrows.

I imagine so. There's probably no point in trying to make a realistic procedural eyebrow map.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


odf ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 8:35 AM

Content Advisory! This message contains nudity

file_416617.jpg

Here's a quick update. Made some of the changes that **pjz99** suggested. The navel was a pain in the ... umm ... belly. I hope it's looking better now.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


jenay ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 9:19 AM

she looks really lovely - a unique face. and the skin very decent :)
my only suggestion for her face is her nose.
it looks a bit too big and a bit too broad IMHO. that was my first impression
when looking at the portrait shot from oct. 13th.
all the rest is superb !!!


SSAfam1 ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 9:28 AM · edited Wed, 29 October 2008 at 9:30 AM

I love her nose! It adds to the uniqueness of her face. IMO

This will be released as a model correct? Like V4 or any other model? So if one wants to, they'll not only be making clothes for her but character sets?


momodot ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 10:13 AM

I think the nose is marvelous. Easier to magnet a nose down then up any way but this is just a lovely real looking figure aside from still the navel. The skin is lovely, what exactly is giving it that quality?



Faery_Light ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 10:53 AM

I hope you can see your way to do her for free. I'd love to make textures for her. I like the face as is and morphs could take care of the nose for those who want it smaller. :) The gens look more realistic than the mil gals, BTW.


Let me introduce you to my multiple personalities. :)
     BluEcho...Faery_Light...Faery_Souls.


momodot ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 11:57 AM

It is true... the genitals are nice and naturalistic... even when you get genitals for the DAZ Females they are oriented toward use in explicit sex poses not toward a simple mater of fact naturalism.



pitklad ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 12:49 PM

Very nice model!
Is this the final resolution or you plan to sub it before rigging?
I love the body shape!
I have to agree that the nose gives her character but maybe  too much character, I would prefer just a bit smaller shape :biggrin:
I would be very happy to make morphs for her!
The idea of a model made by the help of many people is great and this can be a poser community girl! :biggrin:


My FreeStuff


richardson ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 2:55 PM

file_416630.jpg

odf,,,

I think one of the many successes you have in this is a nice take on the arm/shoulder issue. Few really bother but I study this a bit. You've not only + a decent fold height and lifted shape,,, you also are as close as I've seen to proper "negative" space inside the arms profile in this position.

If you draw an imaginary level line from the elbow crease across the face, you'll see what I mean. Look in the mirror...V4 (here)shows just how much her torso is shortened to her limbs. Moreso, how much the volume of flesh is reduced to the scale of her head....

Nice work


odf ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 6:14 PM · edited Wed, 29 October 2008 at 6:15 PM

SSAfam1 wrote: > Quote - I love her nose! It adds to the uniqueness of her face. IMO

This will be released as a model correct? Like V4 or any other model? So if one wants to, they'll not only be making clothes for her but character sets?

Yes, a model like V4, except that she won't come with a large set of morphs that one could simply dial a character from. At least not initially. My current plan is to finish the inner mouth, make a UV-map and work on the rigging until I'm reasonably happy with it or give up, then put her up as a Poser-ready figure on cgshare or a similar free hosting site. A few people have stated interested in making clothes or textures for her, so I expect (or rather, phantasize) that there will be some add-ons available for her fairly soon, either free or for cash.

As for morphs, my first priority will be a full set of expressions. But I might actually do some shape morphs first for practice and will be happy to share those. When that time comes, I might put up a post here and ask for requests.

About the nose: yes, I have a thing for girls with big noses, so you shrinky-nose fans out there lose. :P But I'm prepared to provide her with a morph to make you happy.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


momodot ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 6:18 PM

Damn, Antonia makes V4 look like the P2 nude in that comparison... I sure wish DAZ paid more attention to sculpting then to racking up the mesh count.

I hope you let your figure loos soon! Pitklad can do amazing morph work but I must say I like her very ver very much just the way she is.



SSAfam1 ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 6:25 PM

Rigging is adding bones so she can bend properly correct?


odf ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 6:44 PM

Quote - The skin is lovely, what exactly is giving it that quality?

The genius of bagginsbill.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


odf ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 6:50 PM

Quote - Is this the final resolution or you plan to sub it before rigging?

The basic rigging works with both the lower (~9600 poly) and higher (~38000 poly)  resolution, but I'll do the fine tuning - a.k.a. joint zones setup - in the hi-res version. So the lo-res one will still pose, but the mesh might not hold up to all poses as well as the hi-res one.

As a general rule, I do as much work as possible in the lo-res version - including all or most of the morphs I will be making - and propagate it to the subdivided one.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


momodot ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 6:51 PM

I like the sound of focusing on expressions first... some figures can morph to a lot of face shapes but just don't do expressions well.



odf ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 6:55 PM

Quote - Rigging is adding bones so she can bend properly correct?

Yes, but that's only the first step. After adding the bones - which I've done - one needs to set up which parts of the figure each movement of each bone influences. That's the fiddly bit, and needs the most time to do right.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


JOELGLAINE ( ) posted Wed, 29 October 2008 at 7:14 PM

WOW!  Very impressive!  I'll echo BagginsBill:"Gimmee!Gimmee!Gimmee!"

Makes V4 look like a blow-up doll next to a real woman! Antonia kicks ass. A unique looking woman is a treasure in the sea of bland beauty. Give a version to Philc, and explain what you're doing and he might put her on the dry-erase board of figures to do!

Fantastic work.  You did good work.

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   


odf ( ) posted Thu, 30 October 2008 at 12:43 AM

Quote - I like the sound of focusing on expressions first... some figures can morph to a lot of face shapes but just don't do expressions well.

I'm planning to go by the book 'Stop Staring' by Jason Osipa. He uses a system or morphs that looks very well thought out.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


Diogenes ( ) posted Thu, 30 October 2008 at 3:34 AM · edited Thu, 30 October 2008 at 3:49 AM

Quote - phantom3D wrote: > Quote - You know I have found that basic straight forward rigging placed properly is usualy the best. I've toyed with all sorts of complicated rigging scemes and have found that the solutions that really worked were all simple basic changes. She looks very good to me so I'd stick with this rigging and make small changes in placement and settings till you're happy. But the shoulders look great to me, and that's quite an accomplishment, shoulders are very hard.

Well, when I said the joint setup was basic, I meant that I hadn't fine-tuned it much yet, not that I was planning to rig her in some complicated way. But it's very, very good to hear from a master like you that simple riggings work well. I think I still need to learn a lot to make them so, though. In my - limited - experience so far, it's fairly easy to get a few things right for demo poses like the one I showed a few posts above. But the real trick is to make everything work nicely together, and with that I'm still struggling

I know what you mean, what I do to get the joint settings favorable for a wide range of movement, is use a full set of pose files that use a full range of movement and I go through each pose and set the joints.  Make any changes in the grouping and falloff zones and do it again, over and over till all is working as perfect as I can get it, then I start adding body handles to make corrections in shape, and finally, last is JCM's as few as possible. I think that's probably how most people do, but don't be afraid to set your bones and joints in unconventional positions, in the end all that really matters is the end result, if it works better, use it.

One thing mor to say, I really really like her body shape. She's not all skinny and anemic, when I see real people that are as skinny as V4 I always feel like I need to feed them :) Refreshing to see a healthy looking model.

.


A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY


odf ( ) posted Thu, 30 October 2008 at 7:50 AM

Content Advisory! This message contains nudity

file_416708.jpg

Another quick update. Gave the navel another shot and did some sculpting on the thighs. I think it's save to say that each and every one of pjz99's suggestions were spot on.

I keep finding little things to fiddle with. The human form has so many subtleties. But I'll do my best to get with the program and work towards some publishable version quickly.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


giorgio_2004 ( ) posted Thu, 30 October 2008 at 8:18 AM

Quote -
I think it's save to say that each and every one of pjz99's suggestions were spot on.

You cannot go wrong with him!  :biggrin:

Judging from your pictures, another good point are her FEET.  In my opinion, V3/V4 feet are ugly, with disproportionate toes.

Giorgio

giorgio_2004 here, ksabers on XBox Live, PSN  and everywhere else.


JOELGLAINE ( ) posted Thu, 30 October 2008 at 1:37 PM

That's true! I didn't think about the feet looking SO "normal" looking. The shape is much closer to a REAL person now. The navel could use a bit more decrease in the X-axis, but that is nit-picking at this late date. Right now, nit-picking is all that's left  The wrists might need some tweaking.

Remember with the wrist: there's more above than below. It rotates Z-axis about 40% to 1/3 from the bottom of the wrist-bone, not at the fifty % mark from the bottom. It's easy to forget, but look at your wrist bone in side-view. See what I mean?

That's all I can think of.

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   


SSAfam1 ( ) posted Thu, 30 October 2008 at 1:46 PM

I'd say the arch in her foot is a little too high.


odf ( ) posted Thu, 30 October 2008 at 5:52 PM

SSAfam1: I think it might just look like that because of the way it's lit. If I find time, I'll post a closeup of the foot tonight after work.

JOELGLAINE: Nitpicking is fine. I'll take it into consideration. Have to do some more fiddling with the hands and wrists anyway, to make sure they look and bend correctly. Maybe I'll post a closeup of a hand tonight, as well.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


odf ( ) posted Fri, 31 October 2008 at 9:11 AM

file_416795.jpg

Footsies!

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


odf ( ) posted Fri, 31 October 2008 at 9:31 AM

Content Advisory! This message contains nudity

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


corvas ( ) posted Fri, 31 October 2008 at 9:53 AM

your doing a really amazing work on her
shes looking fantastic
can not wait till shes finished


A_ ( ) posted Fri, 31 October 2008 at 10:01 AM

is it possible to see her whole body posed? (including feet)?


Faery_Light ( ) posted Fri, 31 October 2008 at 10:04 AM

Her feet look a lot like mine, short with small toes. :)

She's looking better and better.
I'm waiting to get the chance to do textures for her.


Let me introduce you to my multiple personalities. :)
     BluEcho...Faery_Light...Faery_Souls.


JOELGLAINE ( ) posted Fri, 31 October 2008 at 1:28 PM

All this interest in her feet has me curious,too. What do they look like at point and with toes bent? Inquiring minds want to know.

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   


pjz99 ( ) posted Fri, 31 October 2008 at 1:52 PM

Quote - my only suggestion for her face is her nose. it looks a bit too big and a bit too broad IMHO.

That's the best feature, a wonky human nose.  Please don't make it a little pea-sized knob as is so common in Poser people!

My Freebies (main)

My Freebies (alt)


rjjack ( ) posted Fri, 31 October 2008 at 2:11 PM

simply beautiful, count on me for some clothes


corvas ( ) posted Fri, 31 October 2008 at 6:28 PM

Quote - "my only suggestion for her face is her nose. it looks a bit too big and a bit too broad IMHO. "

i dont think her nose should be changed at all or any other part of her face it makes her unique and not like every other poser character out there. 


odf ( ) posted Fri, 31 October 2008 at 9:02 PM

Content Advisory! This message contains profanity

Thanks again for all the nice comments. Sorry, but it looks like I won't be posting interesting poses any time soon. The Poser joint setup software is probably the weirdest, lousiest, buggiest piece of sh*t that I've ever tried to work with. I set the fall-off zones for the right thigh, I copy them over using the symmetry function, they are displayed correctly and enabled, but Poser ignores them completely.

In order to preserve my mental health, I might have to give up on trying to rig her and try to find someone else to do it for me. At any rate, I'll probably throw away what I have, reload the geometry and make a new skeleton from scratch. There seem to be so many things broken in the current cr2 that there's probably no point in keeping it. Any advice on how to assure a sane cr2 structure would be greatly appreciated.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


odf ( ) posted Fri, 31 October 2008 at 9:33 PM

Content Advisory! This message contains profanity

Hmm, the inclusion-exclusion angles are ignored as well, no matter how I set them. I think it's time for some serious cr2 repair work.

Oh, and I don't think I'll seriously start from scratch with the rigging, or at least not until I have a much better understanding of how those gorram cr2 files work and how to avoid getting them all messed up.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


SSAfam1 ( ) posted Fri, 31 October 2008 at 9:35 PM · edited Fri, 31 October 2008 at 9:36 PM

Phantom3D is your man as far as rigging. He did a great job on  V4 and his own figure. Both bend nicely. Daz should've had him do V4 to begin with!


odf ( ) posted Fri, 31 October 2008 at 9:56 PM · edited Fri, 31 October 2008 at 9:57 PM

Doing the rigging myself is actually a good learning experience. It has some influence on how I do the mesh topology, too, so it's worthwhile I have a go at it myself. It's just extremely frustrating to run into weird Poser bugs at every second corner.

All that said: if you're interesting in doing a rigging for her, phantom3D, knock yourself out. I'll happily to send you Antonia's files anytime. We could even think about using my own amateurish rigging for the free version and charging money for a 'phantom-enhanced' one.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


aella ( ) posted Fri, 31 October 2008 at 11:29 PM

Wow antonia looks amazing


kobaltkween ( ) posted Sat, 01 November 2008 at 1:26 AM

well, DAZ just released rigging tools for D|S.  you might find those more to your liking.  and i think people generally use something third party rather than the actual setup room.  something called PHI builder?  i'm trying to remember.  Xena and someone else once mentioned it in a forum post at DAZ.... let me see if i can find it.  nope, can't.  no clue why.  i mean, i searched and only found threads that were active in the past month.  i find it hard to believe that no one has mentioned PHI builder before October. 

PhilC not only knows tons about rigging, he knows a lot about making tools.  at DAZ, Kamilche (his partner in crime) is getting requests for a good rigging tool.  if you don't want to buy D|S rigging tools ($80 now, $180 regular), you might want to say something there.



odf ( ) posted Sat, 01 November 2008 at 4:53 AM

Content Advisory! This message contains nudity

file_416867.jpg

Well, looks like I found a way to repair my setup. I changed the joint order and changed it back. That apparently reset the channel dependencies, and after that the mirroring of the settings from the other leg worked. I'll put that one in my emergency bag of tricks.

So here's the requested full frontal contrapost. Maybe tomorrow I'll restore the toe settings and post the feet-on-point and curly-toe renders people have asked for.

While I'm at it, can I just say I love the way bagginsbill's skin shader reacts to lights? Rim light effects have never been this much fun.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


rjjack ( ) posted Sat, 01 November 2008 at 5:16 AM

is there some way to get antonia to start making clothes ? currently i am working on a various clothes for Aiko3 but i can put this on hold and start the adaptation of my low-polys obj to antonia.

my current WIP :

staci.dyndns.org/wip.html

note : the site is up only the week-end when i am on my hometown


kobaltkween ( ) posted Sat, 01 November 2008 at 6:00 AM

wow.  if i had a figure like that, i'd have to spend hours less time on postwork.



odf ( ) posted Sat, 01 November 2008 at 6:10 AM

Quote - is there some way to get antonia to start making clothes ? currently i am working on a various clothes for Aiko3 but i can put this on hold and start the adaptation of my low-polys obj to antonia.

my current WIP :

staci.dyndns.org/wip.html

note : the site is up only the week-end when i am on my hometown

Those look pretty cool. You probably shouldn't put your Aiko clothing line on hold for Antonia, though. Before you can really conform anything, I will at least have to nail down the rigging.

Since several people have expressed interest in making clothes, I'm now thinking about making some kind of special pre-release for that. She wouldn't need detailed teeth or a UV-map, and I guess as long as the basic shapes don't change too much afterwards, people would be able to adjust to some final tweaks? I think I'd be more comfortable putting an incomplete snapshot up on cgshare where everyone can see her than emailing her to people I don't know or don't know well.

So, to all the taylors out there: what would you need to have in a pre-release to start working on clothes for her?

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


rjjack ( ) posted Sat, 01 November 2008 at 6:30 AM

Quote -
Those look pretty cool. You probably shouldn't put your Aiko clothing line on hold for Antonia, though. Before you can really conform anything, I will at least have to nail down the rigging.

Thanks you, my goal is to finish for the end of year, i am still learning modeling and rigging, but since they are for free Aiko3 can wait a little more if needed

Quote -
So, to all the taylors out there: what would you need to have in a pre-release to start working on clothes for her?

for me the object is enough, if the cr2 is included with a basic rigging this can be useful too


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