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Subject: Renderosity Announces Change in Policy Regarding AI Gallery Images


WendyLuvsCatz ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 3:59 AM

I do miss our little AI forum that those who were uninterested in could have just simply hid, I came here everyday, probably won't now, maybe now once a week to keep the Carrara forum alive ( am in DAZ one daily)

it's sad some are compelled to gatekeep others.

I mostly prompt AI art on free sites while my computer is busy rendering, especially if I was using iray in DAZ studio as that took all bloody day 馃ぃ

I still will of course, nothing was gained by this move, I get inspired by the results to try reproducing them in 3D quite often and AI not being copyrighted meant I felt less guilty copying the style than I would someone's 3D render which if I am to believe the antiAI crowd is something you must never do, look at someone's art, be inspired and copy it!

They are all very original (as one can be using the same 3D figures and clothing)

YouTube Channel

Dreaming Kitty Channel

Tom R. Toe

My ArtyFarty AI channel



hmatienzo ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 4:29 AM

Yeah, but you will always find bitter old men no matter where you go, trying to force their outdated views on the rest of the world.聽 Time to pack up and vote with the wallet, methinks... after like 22 years.

L'ultima f貌rza 猫 nella morte.


parkdalegardener ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 5:48 AM

I suspect prolific output to be a big part of this. Freestuff is full of AI generated material, not just the galleries. Rendo rewarding for that could be part of the issue. They are trying to sell assets after all not give them away. Servers, storage, and bandwidth are not free.

I do believe that this is slightly ill-considered. I have no issue with AI. Just the way some of the folk use it. Low effort type and go may be fun for some, but it just becomes so much eyestrain after a bit. NVIATWAS anyone?

I've been a member here since Metacreations owned Poser, Kai made Powergoo; and Renderosity and Renderotica were the same site. I changed username some 15 years ago or so. I visit here every day. On rare occasions I post to the forms. I have never posted to the gallery here in all that time. Does that mean I'm not any good or afraid to show my work? Nope. I was a professional for 35 years until I retired. I do show work elsewhere as well as post images to galleries. Some of them even {gasp} have AI components.

Texture creation, background removal and replacement, lighting changes, extraneous detail inclusion or removal, not to mention masking for editing and so much more. Just ask Adobe or any of the others mentioned. "AI" is not just still image creation. AI is being used with Poser and DS as basic input for AI effects. Blender and Vue both have AI plugins. Photographs get the AI treatment. Are you going to forbid the use of AI "assistance" in those galleries? If so; how do you tell?

Invisible watermarking? It's there in the models themselves and no; stripping the metadata does not remove the watermark. It's embedded at pixel level so AI doesn't train AI. It can be removed but not easily as it is weight (model) level and not application level. It will appear even if a non-ai generated piece is manipulated thus you can actually make a Poser render, photograph, or any other image identify as AI even if it isn't. The point is that well done work wont appear as "AI" and until you figure out a reasonable method of detection. AI artwork is appearing in every gallery due to the tools we use. Time to hire termites on staff as the wooden shoes are falling everywhere.



gillbrooks ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:07 AM

There is one awful big irony here.聽 This week's RR newsletter features an AI GENERATED IMAGE as it's cover.



Gill

聽聽聽聽聽聽聽


Raindroptheelf ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:33 AM

I am so glad this AI thing is over, at least here at Renderosity.

THANK YOU :)



parkdalegardener ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:40 AM edited Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:40 AM
gillbrooks posted at 6:07 AM Fri, 8 September 2023 - #4474231

There is one awful big irony here.聽 This week's RR newsletter features an AI GENERATED IMAGE as it's cover.



Yeah. I was just dropping in here to mention the cover image for "Sci-Fi Friday" after checking my email a few minutes ago. Daily theme posts from the now deleted AI threads comes to mind. You beat me to it.



maneki_neko ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:51 AM edited Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:57 AM
parkdalegardener posted at 5:48 AM Fri, 8 September 2023 - #4474229

I suspect prolific output to be a big part of this. Freestuff is full of AI generated material, not just the galleries. Rendo rewarding for that could be part of the issue. They are trying to sell assets after all not give them away. Servers, storage, and bandwidth are not free.

I do believe that this is slightly ill-considered. I have no issue with AI. Just the way some of the folk use it. Low effort type and go may be fun for some, but it just becomes so much eyestrain after a bit. NVIATWAS anyone?


prolific output might be easier to achieve with AI, true - HOWEVER i have seen for example prolific and absolutely repetitive outputs of 2D in the form of self nudes vaguely adorned of some kind of filters in photoshop, like whole series of them during days. maybe a bit more work than "clicking on a button", as non AI creators believe all AI images are done (and it's by far not always the case), but clicking on a PS submenu on a filter isn't exactly much more than a click on a button. i have seen the best examples of repetitive 3D聽NVIATWAS聽where there wasn't even a temple to begin with, just a blank white background, in daily batches, and i'm not commenting on the exaggeratedborderlineobscene degrading聽female form. my eyes are really strained to see those batches of pseudo-porn.
and as freestuff goes, i have seen millions of repetitive backgrounds made with some app that automatizes textures, i don't know how much clicks are involved but yeah, the freestuff area is flooded with them, additionally聽to packs of random photos from the street or whatever. i have to scroll a good few times before i come across a freebie聽that's not yet another pack聽of some backgrounds/textures, and i'm not counting the AI made ones, just the "human" made ones.
whereby, human... as long as a photo machine or a computer machine is involved, i'd say it's not more human. anyone wanting to be a purist should publish hand painted/drawn images.

short: it doesn't take AI to create floods of stuff where the amount of work and creativity聽involved might be questionable as well as the "art" quality, it has been and is still done in large parts with "conventional" 2D and 3D apps. and all those images, freebies etc have been well rewarded too.

personally, i spent quite some time until i had the one or other AI output, with many fails and prompt testing - and the ones i submitted聽in my gallery here were hand picked from many, the best, the ones i loved most, many of them beautiful. i also tried to upload聽a nice varied聽batch daily, different themes, colors, styles.
i created a lot more with Daz studio before AI, but with an old crappy slow laggy crashy laptop with which i can't even use the latest features (dforce, hair etc), it impacted the quality of my scenes and renders聽a lot, and i give up in the middle of like 99% of my scenes because of the limitations of my hardware and my patience to deal with this BS laptop.

so AI was a balm for my soul, finally being able to create felines with HAIR, clothing that moves, and not waste hours waiting for every single little test. and also be surprised by what the AI created, it's fun to not have everything under control, it's a joint work. i swear like a sailor when i use daz, because my hardware makes me insane - and i laughed so often at what the AI had concocted...

i will NOT have my images, because they were made with AI, being labeled as worthless workless flooding garbage while other people publish just the same amount of stuff where not much effort nor soul was involved and the results are anything but pleasant or useful.

if we're judgy, then let's judge everything - or nothing.

the sources of the materials used to train AI were聽questionable, i admit it, some things were not done in a correct way - but then again, people have been copying others in a form or another for eons. every single learning process is based on mimicry, and all forms of art are not devoid of examples, or we would still be applying our muddy hands on cave walls and beat on drums and scream inarticulate聽sounds with it..
i admit there are issues with AI, but flooding with stuff where not much work was involved is NOT only an AI issue, it's a PEOPLE issue.




IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...


CHMedia ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:21 AM

Good morning,聽

Just a reminder that my door is always open. Please sitemail me if you would like to discuss this further. I have read all of your posts. Thank you in advance for reaching out.


Byrdie ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:50 AM

And who is going to police the remaining galleries? Because, knowing people, that which is forbidden will become even more attractive simply because it is forbidden. We who indulge in creative pursuits are an especially rebellious bunch -- just ask all the censors and book-banners out there. There will always be those who push the envelope, test the edges, interpret things their own way or even merrily ignore them altogether should they decide "the rules" do not make sense. Here's a prediction: AI art may be banned here on Rendo and elsewhere but it won't really go away, it'll just get much better at blending in.聽

Right into the closet, along with everything else "society" has decided or been persuaded that it simply doesn't like.

N.B.: This does NOT mean I personally won't keep to the rules/TOS around here. I fully intend to abide by them, as nonsensical and arbitrary as this latest one is, in my opinion. Nor do I nor will I encourage people to break them. Simply making an educated guess. YMMV.聽



gillbrooks ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 10:35 AM
Byrdie posted at 9:50 AM Fri, 8 September 2023 - #4474252

And who is going to police the remaining galleries? Because, knowing people, that which is forbidden will become even more attractive simply because it is forbidden. We who indulge in creative pursuits are an especially rebellious bunch -- just ask all the censors and book-banners out there. There will always be those who push the envelope, test the edges, interpret things their own way or even merrily ignore them altogether should they decide "the rules" do not make sense. Here's a prediction: AI art may be banned here on Rendo and elsewhere but it won't really go away, it'll just get much better at blending in.聽

Right into the closet, along with everything else "society" has decided or been persuaded that it simply doesn't like.

N.B.: This does NOT mean I personally won't keep to the rules/TOS around here. I fully intend to abide by them, as nonsensical and arbitrary as this latest one is, in my opinion. Nor do I nor will I encourage people to break them. Simply making an educated guess. YMMV.聽


People will just migrate to other places.聽聽

Gill

聽聽聽聽聽聽聽


ladylake ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 10:38 AM

It's already happened in the gallery today....but to give benefit of doubt maybe they haven't heard yet but .....just saying.聽 :-)聽

I too will abide by the rules.聽 But since that is only kind of images I make anymore I will take my "worthless art" somewhere else where there is tolerance for differences.聽聽


Giana ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 11:22 AM edited Fri, 08 September 2023 at 11:24 AM

it's a rather simple formula, and it is most oft placed within the mathematics of money [easier to understand than all the rather mixed & complex feelings on this subject]...

Rendo offers its servers for free to all the hobbyists here - but still, those servers cost monies, as does all overhead, such as staff, programmers, developers, etc.

AI eats into monies in terms of people not buying as many assets perhaps has once they were.聽 also, due to the flood of AI images, and people's own individual moral code, Rendo has lost some vendors and other hobbyists who were also buying assets.

the difference between say a flood of AI vs. a flood of nude 3D models is that the creators of said model have been properly compensated.聽 many images that fed, or feed, into AI were scraped and culled from creators without their permission, and without fair compensation.聽 who has NOT seen at least a few AI images with vestiges of the original artist's signature kinda distorted and messed up from the AI algorithm?聽 those creators haven't said 'yea, use my stuff for free, but please mess up my signature, or make sure it has been obliterated entirely'.聽 if a creator does sell say a piece of their own artwork, there are terms that are attached to that sale, most notably that copyright thing. even mass consumption stock photos come with fair-usage terms and/or a license, though they lack the artist's signature.

even buying 3D assets doesn't mean you actually own them.聽 you have simply purchased a license to use them.聽 they are protected under copyright.

AI art is not 'worthless' - it simply hasn't been paid for, or licensed for use...

bottom line: monies, but what should be ahead of even that is respect... yanno, the kind you would want others to exhibit for/towards your own work


please note my post is not directed towards any one person in the thread or on this site.聽 i am merely trying to address some of the issues surrounding this topic...


ladylake ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 11:58 AM

Okay, I understand the mathematics of money.....so AI people don't buy assets.聽 BUT neither do people who make fractals, or people who upload their photos/etc.聽 Is banning those next, so only Poser/DAZ and a couple of others are left?聽 I think not.聽 So that puts a dent in the money theory.聽 聽If flooding was such a big problem the upload limit could have been a lot less.聽 Say two a day.聽 But that wasn't done.聽 I will always wonder why.

As to the art....I agree respect is what it is about.聽 Respect for those who do not agree with you.聽 Because you do know that there are a lot of people who do not agree, right?聽聽

Enough from me.聽 I am weary of the argument.聽 聽I will stop back in to say "hi" to some of you once in a while.聽 聽 Best of luck.



Giana ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 12:35 PM

i did not say AI people do not buy assets... i said fewer assets were being purchased

and i do hope you stop in to say to those folks you bonded with, esp. in that AI thread.聽 bet they'd appreciate it :))


Byrdie ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 1:17 PM

My 3d asset purchases have been on the decrease long before I started using AI. Not buying as much now that I'm retired and it's a hobby not a job. Plus the bad economy and a fixed income (disability pension) means less money for non-essentials like a thousand variations of the same string bikini for Vicky Whatever-Her-Number-Is-These-Days. My computer is fairly new but struggles with fully loaded Genesis figures if there is more than one per scene and I am doubtful of its ability to handle the next version of Studio or Poser without major upgrades. Which again I cannot afford, especially since the thing ain't broke and in need of fixing. Have not jumped on the Genesis 9 bandwagon and only toe-dipped in the 8.1 pool, still using Michael/Vicky 7 & 8 -- and yes, even 4. Since I already have tons of stuff for those figures and the supply of new products for them has mostly dried up, I'm not inclined to shop the 3D section very much.聽

That said, I have found myself buying more brushes, overlays, Photoshop actions, Paintshop Pro tubes and the like. For the purpose of using them along with programs like Stable Diffusion or MidJourney to do mixed media pieces. So AI has actually increased my spending, just on 2d assets instead.


maneki_neko ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 1:28 PM
Giana posted at 11:22 AM Fri, 8 September 2023 - #4474256

it's a rather simple formula, and it is most oft placed within the mathematics of money [easier to understand than all the rather mixed & complex feelings on this subject]...

Rendo offers its servers for free to all the hobbyists here - but still, those servers cost monies, as does all overhead, such as staff, programmers, developers, etc.

AI eats into monies in terms of people not buying as many assets perhaps has once they were.聽 also, due to the flood of AI images, and people's own individual moral code, Rendo has lost some vendors and other hobbyists who were also buying assets.

the difference between say a flood of AI vs. a flood of nude 3D models is that the creators of said model have been properly compensated.聽 many images that fed, or feed, into AI were scraped and culled from creators without their permission, and without fair compensation.聽 who has NOT seen at least a few AI images with vestiges of the original artist's signature kinda distorted and messed up from the AI algorithm?聽 those creators haven't said 'yea, use my stuff for free, but please mess up my signature, or make sure it has been obliterated entirely'.聽 if a creator does sell say a piece of their own artwork, there are terms that are attached to that sale, most notably that copyright thing. even mass consumption stock photos come with fair-usage terms and/or a license, though they lack the artist's signature.

even buying 3D assets doesn't mean you actually own them.聽 you have simply purchased a license to use them.聽 they are protected under copyright.

AI art is not 'worthless' - it simply hasn't been paid for, or licensed for use...

bottom line: monies, but what should be ahead of even that is respect... yanno, the kind you would want others to exhibit for/towards your own work


please note my post is not directed towards any one person in the thread or on this site.聽 i am merely trying to address some of the issues surrounding this topic...


doesn't apply to (mostly random bad quickly made) photos tho, there renderosity doesn't get a cent, nobody had bought assets at all. and for the un-artsy random ones, there was really no art involved other than a click on a button, and not even a prompt written. there are sites for that such as social media imho. and if fractal or other programs are art and often beautiful also deserving a nice place, they didn't bring a cent in either. so money paid into the site can't be used as an argument against AI works, otherwise you'd have to cancel those too...



IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...


Ken1171_Designs ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 1:32 PM

The way I see this, AI has revolutionized the way people create art in more ways than people may realize. All major paint programs have adopted it, and even 3D programs have added AI generation to their tools arsenal. Some have already listed some of the applications in this thread, but there are many more. As time passes, I am sure even more creative applications will be explored.聽

On my side, I have spent a lot of time and effort to develop a workflow to integrate Poser with Stable Diffusion AI. I have created a plugin that allows 3D artists to pose the and frame the character in Poser, and export a preprocessed OpenPose-compatible pose reference that can be loaded into the ControlNet extension to customize and render it in Stable Diffusion. I have been showcasing this workflow in social media for over a month, and people who had never heard of Poser are now interested. I have provided links to the PoserSoftware page to those who had never heard of Poser before. They look at the results I have been presenting, and asked me what Poser is, and where to find it.聽

So, for those claiming AI cannot bring money to Poser, think again. With the explosion of popularity AI has brought into the community, this alone could bring plenty of new users to Poser. However, I have submitted the plugin to the Rendo QAV last month, and got not a word from Rendo ever since. I don't know what's happening, or why, but I wonder if Rendo's decision to ban AI was related to it, since it has happened in the same week my plugin was submitted to the store.聽

Whether or not those are related, this decision to ban AI may backfire on Rendo once my plugin gets released. Pushing customers away at a time when Poser cannot afford to lose even more customers will have consequences, and might also defeat my efforts to bring more attention to Poser, taking advantage of this explosion of AI popularity. After all the time and effort I have put into this project, I feel betrayed. Rendo has pulled the carpet from under my feet in the same week I am releasing my Poser plugin to bridge it with AI.聽


maneki_neko ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 1:34 PM
ladylake posted at 10:38 AM Fri, 8 September 2023 - #4474254

It's already happened in the gallery today....but to give benefit of doubt maybe they haven't heard yet but .....just saying.聽 :-)聽

I too will abide by the rules.聽 But since that is only kind of images I make anymore I will take my "worthless art" somewhere else where there is tolerance for differences.聽聽


i too will abide by the rules. from now on i will only upload daz studio made images. like a real artist. funny is, the majority of my assets were bought at daz... and some here. makes a lot of sense.



IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...


parkdalegardener ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 2:06 PM

Ken; I posted above about people using 3d software like Blender, Poser and Studio output as input for AI. Sounds like a useful tool you have there and a fine addition to my Poser 13. Let me know if it ever gets released.



A_Sunbeam ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 2:39 PM

All Rendo needed to do was to give AI its own AI exclusive gallery and not allow AI in the main gallery.



Byrdie ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 3:02 PM

Or they could have not allowed AI images in the gallery while still permitting them only in the AI forum. Which could be hidden/entirely avoided by those not interested. That would have solved the "flooding" issue.聽


Digitell ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 3:13 PM

Thank you Renderosity!聽




gillbrooks ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 3:17 PM edited Fri, 08 September 2023 at 3:17 PM

OK, I'm going to have my say here.


Firstly, the notion that AI "steals" peoples art/images/photographs is a myth.聽 It uses images as REFERENCE.聽 It does not copy/paste bits of artwork into an image to create a new image.聽 As a Vue user, I nearly always used photographs or paintings for reference, yet was never berated or banned for that.聽 Most "real" artists use references, be it photo, image or physical.


Images are made up of noise.聽 A demonstration of this is in the image below containing 4 shots of the progress from 0% to 100%.聽 As you can clearly see, there is not copy/pasting going on.聽 The images are being built up using noise.

bFtIGDW5qTU7qiO1PgQAlixb7GLLdg61VFzQerp4.jpg

The second image shows one of those 4 that has been taken into Photoshop.聽 A squirrel has been hand painted in, and some branches and leaves added.聽 Colour and lighting correction has also been done.聽 This has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button.聽 This, although initially generated with AI has also been worked on by a human doing actual digial painting.聽聽

EBvYtVbF6KEAbxDrs5cMF4hB45FWvlPye1UEcapt.jpg

This brings me to my second gripe.聽 Most of those whingeing about AI who are calling themselves "artusts" are a joke to themselves.聽 聽I doubt any of them have ever actually picked up a brush and painted on canvas.聽 THAT is a real artist.聽 The whingers are simply using 3D programmes to create what can only be termed as mediocre, boring and in many cases, ugly images and they're calling it "art". On the subject of ugly and flooding, I might highlight all of those NVIATWAS in the galleries. And before anyone jumps in and accuses ME of being the same, well no, actually.聽 I WAS painting on canvas using oil paints long before digital, and even long before PCs were around.

I despise hypocrites, and this is hypocrisy at it's most vulgar.

Gill

聽聽聽聽聽聽聽


Raindroptheelf ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 3:55 PM

You can show me 30 AI Images and I would not be able to distinguish between them or tell you the Artist who made any of them.

They all look the same.

There is no individuality in any of them.

They all have that Dreamy oversaturated look and glow to them.

Saying that 3D Artists with DS and Poser are not Artists because they have not painted before is just not right.

The only thing I ever painted in my life were walls and yet, I pride myself on doing nice enough 3D Images that do not just appear out of thin air.聽

I have not yet found the Instant Art button in any of the 3D programs that I have ever used.

@Gill

You say *This has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button*

But I am sure you know that this is NOT how it works.





Lunaseas ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 4:12 PM

"Show me 20 or show me 100 AI Images and I could NEVER say who the person was that made the Image, they ALL look the same."

"So please anyone who says users of 3D programs are not Artists, they do a hell of a lot more than waiting for an image to be ready, they have to compose the image, light, props, placing and more."

Just my two cents but this is exactly the same thing that I heard from people about Poser back in 2001 when I joined Renderosity. Nevertheless, I will follow the rules and take my AI augmented/generated work elsewhere and share my Daz stuff here if I can get my computer to be able to crunch out a render before crashing.聽






gillbrooks ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 4:35 PM
Raindroptheelf posted at 3:55 PM Fri, 8 September 2023 - #4474271


@Gill

You say *This has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button*

But I am sure you know that this is NOT how it works.


If that's not how it works, how come there's the need to purchase pre-made backgrounds, click and load pre-made sets, pre-made poses....the list goes on.聽 At least when I used Poser a very long time ago, I made my own content to add to the blandness of it all.聽聽


Gill

聽聽聽聽聽聽聽


maneki_neko ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 5:21 PM
gillbrooks posted at 3:17 PM Fri, 8 September 2023 - #4474269

OK, I'm going to have my say here.


Firstly, the notion that AI "steals" peoples art/images/photographs is a myth.聽 It uses images as REFERENCE.聽 It does not copy/paste bits of artwork into an image to create a new image.聽 As a Vue user, I nearly always used photographs or paintings for reference, yet was never berated or banned for that.聽 Most "real" artists use references, be it photo, image or physical.


Images are made up of noise.聽 A demonstration of this is in the image below containing 4 shots of the progress from 0% to 100%.聽 As you can clearly see, there is not copy/pasting going on.聽 The images are being built up using noise.

bFtIGDW5qTU7qiO1PgQAlixb7GLLdg61VFzQerp4.jpg

The second image shows one of those 4 that has been taken into Photoshop.聽 A squirrel has been hand painted in, and some branches and leaves added.聽 Colour and lighting correction has also been done.聽 This has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button.聽 This, although initially generated with AI has also been worked on by a human doing actual digial painting.聽聽

EBvYtVbF6KEAbxDrs5cMF4hB45FWvlPye1UEcapt.jpg

This brings me to my second gripe.聽 Most of those whingeing about AI who are calling themselves "artusts" are a joke to themselves.聽 聽I doubt any of them have ever actually picked up a brush and painted on canvas.聽 THAT is a real artist.聽 The whingers are simply using 3D programmes to create what can only be termed as mediocre, boring and in many cases, ugly images and they're calling it "art". On the subject of ugly and flooding, I might highlight all of those NVIATWAS in the galleries. And before anyone jumps in and accuses ME of being the same, well no, actually.聽 I WAS painting on canvas using oil paints long before digital, and even long before PCs were around.

I despise hypocrites, and this is hypocrisy at it's most vulgar.

this needed to be said. bravo.



IN THE END, MERITOCRACY HAS NOT ONLY PERMEATED OUR DAILY LIVES AND WORK, BUT ALSO OUR HEARTS, OUR MINDS AND OUR PERCEPTION OF ART...


UteBigSmile ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 5:27 PM
gillbrooks posted at 3:17 PM Fri, 8 September 2023 - #4474269

OK, I'm going to have my say here.


Firstly, the notion that AI "steals" peoples art/images/photographs is a myth.聽 It uses images as REFERENCE.聽 It does not copy/paste bits of artwork into an image to create a new image.聽 As a Vue user, I nearly always used photographs or paintings for reference, yet was never berated or banned for that.聽 Most "real" artists use references, be it photo, image or physical.


Images are made up of noise.聽 A demonstration of this is in the image below containing 4 shots of the progress from 0% to 100%.聽 As you can clearly see, there is not copy/pasting going on.聽 The images are being built up using noise.

bFtIGDW5qTU7qiO1PgQAlixb7GLLdg61VFzQerp4.jpg

The second image shows one of those 4 that has been taken into Photoshop.聽 A squirrel has been hand painted in, and some branches and leaves added.聽 Colour and lighting correction has also been done.聽 This has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button.聽 This, although initially generated with AI has also been worked on by a human doing actual digial painting.聽聽

EBvYtVbF6KEAbxDrs5cMF4hB45FWvlPye1UEcapt.jpg

This brings me to my second gripe.聽 Most of those whingeing about AI who are calling themselves "artusts" are a joke to themselves.聽 聽I doubt any of them have ever actually picked up a brush and painted on canvas.聽 THAT is a real artist.聽 The whingers are simply using 3D programmes to create what can only be termed as mediocre, boring and in many cases, ugly images and they're calling it "art". On the subject of ugly and flooding, I might highlight all of those NVIATWAS in the galleries. And before anyone jumps in and accuses ME of being the same, well no, actually.聽 I WAS painting on canvas using oil paints long before digital, and even long before PCs were around.

I despise hypocrites, and this is hypocrisy at it's most vulgar.

Thank you Gill, you speak from my heart!聽

Why can't I change my avatar anymore?


Message:聽The thumb must be an image.????????聽


UteBigSmile ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 5:36 PM

Thank you Gill, you speak from my heart!聽

Why can't I change my avatar anymore?


Message:聽The thumb must be an image.????????聽


Ken1171_Designs ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:05 PM

What Gillbrooks said is correct. The claims that AI "steals" images from other is indeed a myth spread by misinformed people. AI learns by repeating the same task over and over again, until it gets good with it. Sounds familiar? That's how humans learn. So, if humans practice over materials created by others, and that is not stealing, then why would the same process have a different meaning when done by AI? This is the part some people have trouble understanding, or perhaps refuse to understand for personal reasons. For the record, I have 2 degrees in Computer Science, and I have worked in academic聽AIresearch, so these are the facts, and聽remain聽facts聽no matter how people may feel about it.

@parkdalegardener: Thanks for the support and feedback. Not only this QAV is taking longer than usual, but I didn't get any notification from QAV that the process has started, which is definitely not normal after this long. If Rendo has something to say about it, they didn't tell me. But this AI ban happening at the same time of my submission leaves me wondering. I hope it's just a huge coincidence, but this sudden ban will certainly affect my product. And to think I am doing this to help Poser to get more users... I really feel betrayed.


Byrdie ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:11 PM

If there's a "Make Art" button, I sure haven't found it yet. Nope, not even in Stable Diffusion. Because I don't just type half a dozen words, invoke some Very Famous Artist, click "Generate" and presto! instant masterpiece. Nope, instead I take as much thought on composition, lighting, props and the like as I ever did in Poser or even back when I was using paper, pen and ink or canvas, paint and brush. Can take me hours to write a prompt I'm satisfied with enough to let the AI run. Days or even longer, depending on how much adjusting I do, before I consider an AI render worthy of investing more time and effort on until it's as close as possible to the image I have in mind. Sure, I've gotten good enough results in mere minutes like so many other AI users out there are churning out. Could probably have posted dozens every single day here when it was allowed and if I'd a mind to, but you see, I have this little problem.聽I just can't settle for plain "good enough."

And that, my dear friends, is why I have been doing AI art all wrong. ;-)


Giana ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:25 PM edited Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:33 PM

Gill?聽 this is not to bash on you, or anything of that ilk; however, i'd really like to ask a serious question, and you sound as if you know a lot about AI.聽 so if you'd be willing to help me understand something, i'd surely appreciate it...聽 if not, hey, that's cool, too. :))

and for clarification, i don't just load something into Poser, and hit render.聽 i create a lot of my own textures, be it for character skins, hair, clothing, and props.聽 i set up most of all my own shaders.聽 i use my own lights & poses.聽 it actually takes me about 2.5 days [time permitting] to "throw" something together.聽 and that's not taking in the time for prep, like creating those things mentioned above, or the editing of models, or the re-rigging of things, etc.聽 long ago i decided that because assets that i have purchased, meaning models, were NOT things i created, that i do need to do my best to try to create as much of anything else myself to the best of my ability so that some part of me might actually exist in whatever result i ended up with - doing so is extremely important to me, but that's me.聽 and no one is required to follow the same mindset that i've laid out for myself.聽 i'm extremely cool with that...

edit: forgot to mention that 2.5 days also excludes assembling the render in Photoshop, as i do tend to render out in layers, such as separate shadow map, individual portions for clean crisp alphas, etc., and whatever further painting i decide to do to try to make it "mine", such as further refinement of lighting, or painting over assets, that type of thing...

and i don't claim to be an artist, either, btw.聽 i'm a hobbyist, at best.

anyway, my question is this:聽if AI isn't borrowing from other artists, where do those ghost signatures come from?

thanks for your time & consideration on my question :))


Ken1171_Designs ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:42 PM

@Byrdie: From the plugin I have created for Poser, you will no longer need to try so many times when it comes to camera framing, character proportions, and pose. You establish all of these in Poser using your preferred figure, and the plugin exports a preprocessed OpenPose file you can drop into ControNet OpenPose, and whatever you prompt will be in that pose, proportions, and camera framing. You can find a good number of results I've got from this pipeline in my gallery, and the feedback I've got from social media has been massively positive - even from people who don't even know what Poser is.聽

It's a pipeline that starts in Poser (3D), then goes to Stable Diffusion (AI), and ends with postwork in Paintshop (2D). This alone has silenced all of those haters who claimed that images entirely made with AI had no merit because no human was involved. Back in the early 2000s, haters were claiming that anything made with Poser was "not art", and before that they claimed anything created with Photoshop was聽"not art", and before that they claimed that photography was聽"not art". Having that said, it comes to no surprise that now, anything created with AI is聽"not art". Some things never change, but my Poser plugin has already changed that perception in social media when I showed the results from this 3D-AI-2D pipeline, where AI is just part of the work.聽

Trends show that in the future, every human activity might be AI-assisted, so AI doesn't have to be everything, but it will be part of it.


Crystalis ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:48 PM

@Giana: Forging a signature is a crime in all 50 U.S. states, and is considered a felony. AI will mock [forge] the signature of the artist because it cannot tell that it is a signature. AI has been trained to strip, blur, deface and crop out text only.


Giana ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:51 PM

so you mean the signature from the original image?


Crystalis ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:56 PM edited Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:03 PM

Giana posted at 6:51 PM Fri, 8 September 2023 - #4474288

so you mean the signature from the original image?

Yes, the actual artist that's getting mocked and ripped off, and AI is having their way with their art. Thing is anyone with a malicious intent could feed your entire gallery here and train the AI on it, so when you include "Giana Renderosity" in the prompt you will see your art being mocked. So now, who do you file a lawsuit against?

Please don't do this to Giana, or any other artist here. Don't try to mock and imitate other artists without their permission.


Giana ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 6:58 PM

thank you for your time answering... much appreciated :))

hope everyone has a good weekend!!


Giana ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:04 PM

oh, and i doubt that the majority of AI users have ever actually picked up a brush to paint either... just to be fair... shrug


Crystalis ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:05 PM

You have a great weekend as well, Giana :)


RodS ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:16 PM edited Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:21 PM
gillbrooks posted at 3:17 PM Fri, 8 September 2023 - #4474269

OK, I'm going to have my say here.

Firstly, the notion that AI "steals" peoples art/images/photographs is a myth.聽 It uses images as REFERENCE.聽 It does not copy/paste bits of artwork into an image to create a new image.聽 As a Vue user, I nearly always used photographs or paintings for reference, yet was never berated or banned for that.聽 Most "real" artists use references, be it photo, image or physical.

Images are made up of noise.聽 A demonstration of this is in the image below containing 4 shots of the progress from 0% to 100%.聽 As you can clearly see, there is not copy/pasting going on.聽 The images are being built up using noise.

bFtIGDW5qTU7qiO1PgQAlixb7GLLdg61VFzQerp4.jpg

The second image shows one of those 4 that has been taken into Photoshop.聽 A squirrel has been hand painted in, and some branches and leaves added.聽 Colour and lighting correction has also been done.聽 This has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button.聽 This, although initially generated with AI has also been worked on by a human doing actual digial painting.聽聽

EBvYtVbF6KEAbxDrs5cMF4hB45FWvlPye1UEcapt.jpg

This brings me to my second gripe.聽 Most of those whingeing about AI who are calling themselves "artusts" are a joke to themselves.聽 聽I doubt any of them have ever actually picked up a brush and painted on canvas.聽 THAT is a real artist.聽 The whingers are simply using 3D programmes to create what can only be termed as mediocre, boring and in many cases, ugly images and they're calling it "art". On the subject of ugly and flooding, I might highlight all of those NVIATWAS in the galleries. And before anyone jumps in and accuses ME of being the same, well no, actually.聽 I WAS painting on canvas using oil paints long before digital, and even long before PCs were around.

I despise hypocrites, and this is hypocrisy at it's most vulgar.

OK鈥. My turn.

Other than a couple of earlier comments, I have avoided becoming embroiled in this hellstorm. But鈥

This pisses me off. More later.

You are correct as far as SOME of the AI apps out there. They do 鈥渢rain鈥 on images, and do not just use them 鈥渁s is鈥 to composite an image together. They train on styles, color palettes, subjects and so on. And yes, it is essentially reference. And yes, I use reference (lots of it) no matter what medium I鈥檓 using.

The image demonstration you provided was interesting and informative. And a lovely scene resulted.

So, what pisses me off? Just this:

鈥淭his has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button.聽鈥

And:

鈥淢ost of those whingeing about AI who are calling themselves "artusts" are a joke to themselves.聽 I doubt any of them have ever actually picked up a brush and painted on canvas.聽 THAT is a real artist.聽 The whingers are simply using 3D programmes to create what can only be termed as mediocre, boring and in many cases, ugly images and they're calling it "art". On the subject of ugly and flooding, I might highlight all of those NVIATWAS in the galleries. And before anyone jumps in and accuses ME of being the same, well no, actually.聽 I WAS painting on canvas using oil paints long before digital, and even long before PCs were around.

I despise hypocrites, and this is hypocrisy at it's most vulgar.鈥


BS. And yours isn鈥檛?

You moan and groan about us Poser/Daz folks lumping all AI users and images into one group of folks, then you turn around and do the same thing with Poser/Daz/Photoshop/Photography folks.

Look, I know you and maneki_neko and several others are upset about Rendo鈥檚 AI ban, and are taking it out on the people here who are not fans of this AI craze.

And, by the way鈥 I have been creating art since I first had memory of picking up a pencil. For most of my childhood, I was always drawing on good old 8.5 X 11 paper with a #2 pencil. Later as a teen / young adult I used tons of Prismacolor colored pencils. I鈥檝e also played with watercolor (not my favorite), oils, airbrush, and just about every medium I could get my hands on.

When computers became mainstream, yes鈥 I started playing around in Photoshop 鈥 when it was in its early stages. I鈥檝e been using it ever since.

I am also a photographer and have worked professionally in this medium. I worked with a local modeling agency, both photographing models, and assisting with setting up their first website.

And I鈥檝e worked with Poser for 12 鈥 13 years, done some work with DAZ, also. And as far as 鈥渓oading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button鈥 is concerned, you鈥檒l not see an image posted by me that hasn鈥檛 been tweaked, morphed, lighted in multiple ways, color corrected, with Poser and Photoshop, sometimes for days. It鈥檚 certainly not a matter of 鈥渂ada-bing, bada-boom, hit the render button.鈥 A single page in my TNA series can sometimes take weeks to tweak - poses, expressions, camera angles, lighting, props placement, and render / assemble.

Like I said earlier, I know many of you are upset over the AI ban and are simply lashing out at those you assume are responsible.聽Yes, it's a relief to not see 30 - 50 AI images that all pretty much look the same every day.聽 But it was Renderosity's decision, not mine.

OK?

Can we just move on, now? Please?

"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - Adam Savage


Ken1171_Designs ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:21 PM

When it comes to artistic styles, here is the law: artistic styles cannot be copyrighted, and as a matter of fact, basically all artists were influenced by artistic styles from one or multiple artists. What we now know as the Japanese manga style started off by importing many of the looks from Disney style, and later developed into their own very recognizable style. Later on, Disney itself, and both Marvel and DC comics then imported manga style into their own art, and the cycle keeps rolling. It doesn't matter who grabs a brush or a stylus - artistic styles cannot be owned by anyone. That's the law.聽


Byrdie ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:30 PM edited Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:37 PM

@giana -- the AI is not "forging" anything. But it has been trained with works that do contain signatures, watermarks and the like. So it will sometimes produce artifacts that may, if you squint hard enough, resemble something like writing. Because it has learned "if art then signature"; in other words it thinks those artifacts are supposed to be in the image. It is neither forging nor concealing anybody's actual mark, but it does at times invent something along that line. This is more likely to happen if you have a name in your prompt, especially as an artist's style. How do I know? Well, I once prompted "watercolour paintings in the style of This Fictional Artist I Just Invented" to test that out. Lo and behold! Stable Diffusion kept trying to put what it thought was my make-believe artist's name on almost every one. Take the name out of the prompt, the artifacts disappear. Because they were made up, not copied from any actual artist's work.

Hallucinating. I think that's what they call it when an AI makes stuff up just because. Weird. Undesirable. But certainly not a crime.


Giana ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:54 PM

huh.. i feel even more confused now... lol

@Gill - just want to say you've some lovely backgrounds here in your MP store for Poser/Daz users to utilise to help dress up their images :))


TwiztidKidd ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 7:57 PM edited Fri, 08 September 2023 at 8:06 PM

Some technology should just not be allowed period. AI is so crazy powerful it could post a threat to national security, it could generate fake news and start wars!

The point here is that AI art isn't the problem, but the capitalist system that forces artists to compete with AI is the problem... and when we are all great talented artists = no one really is a talented artist... there's no art in AI.

NO AI !!!



RodS ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 8:18 PM

The AI flooding continues (by at least one individual who shall remain nameless). Now they're posting it under "Other Apps."

"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - Adam Savage


Ken1171_Designs ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 8:43 PM

@Giana: Let me try to explain this in simple terms. The reason AI-generated images may sometimes contain what appears to be signatures is simply because the images used in the training contained logos and signatures. The AI simply doesn't know these things are not part of the artwork, and that's why it attempts to replicate them in generated images. Conversely, when a human artist learns art from the works of others, we KNOW their logos and signatures are not part of the art, so we will not replicate them in our own art. Therefore, this is a deficiency on the AI learning process, and has nothing to do with stealing. It's as simple as that. It's a common misunderstanding conclusion people tend to jump to because they don't know how AI is actually trained.聽

Hope this helps. :)


RodS ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:22 PM

And, it's also being posted as "Mixed Medium." They're determined, I'll give 'em that...... 馃檮

"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - Adam Savage


TwiztidKidd ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:29 PM edited Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:30 PM

I see the quality and quantity of nudes has dropped considerably, I must post some Poser nudes soon lol

Is there a filter that I can select so I can see only the nu-- nevermind 😄



Giana ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:39 PM

trained on logos, which are typically copyrighted things, and signatures?聽 ok, but where did these 'training' tools come from?聽 companies and organisations just agreed to have their logos used in the 'training"?

i feel rather dubious about that, frankly...

whatever...

people will hear/read what they want, ignore everything else that someone says if they can't defend it, and use it all to defend their own position, esp. with regards to highly polarised things such as AI.聽 that's just human nature, i suppose.

just means there is an overwhelming amount of non-listening & communication breakdown.

i actually DO miss your Poser girl, Twiz - the one before your foray in Face App... i loved her upturned nose :))


TwiztidKidd ( ) posted Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:54 PM edited Fri, 08 September 2023 at 9:58 PM

Thank you, Giana! I liked the portraits you used to make around 2016 - 2017, it would look so much like AI art lol

Now, that anyone can do that kind of style and image using AI... it makes your images look just ordinary... except you spent a whole lot of time creating them... which sux, time you could've put to other use... I'm sorry I'm starting to sound a bit depressing lol

Have a great weekend, my friend!



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