Pissing in a violin? I've never heard that before but to me it sounds like an insult.

What does it mean? And what's the etymology of it?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1976246

Hmm, interesting conundrum there...

Now I'm a little surprised at Poser, considering in Carrara, if you place a light you'll get a shadow unless the light is too far away from the character, or out of range, thus also the character would be much darker also... Unless the ground /floor is too dark (which i've had a few times too). But then you've got highlights in the floor texture, which should pickup the shadow...

Wish I could be more of help...

:edit: I guess Poser doesn't quite want to give up the multi-lighting.

I wonder if you could try adding a negative light and place it so it does cast a shadow, or adding an extra light in the same position as the main one, just for shadow effect.  I long gave up Poser back on version 4. Dunno how much or little help this would be...

Quote - I dont know how to translate this ... ' c'est en faisant des erreurs qu'on apprend "

Been awhile since high school French but it's roughly that "you learn the most from your mistakes."

Google translator would probably give better results than me.:biggrin:

On topic to the other posts:

Postwork is not always necessary but if you render with postwork in mind then you can fix, adjust, use creative options not available in rendering, etc. where needed.

Another reason to render for postwork is time. There are instance where an effect can be accomplished in image editing much faster than by rendering with comparable results. Two minutes in Photoshop or an hour rendering....

Rendering for postwork doesn't mean you have to postwork just gives the flexibility.

Global Illumination....if you aren't getting any shadows you're doing it wrong.

Quote - All of the comments so far have mentioned "lighting" or lack thereof.  I am using Poser8 IDL which leaves almost no visible shadow.  So I need to insert an extra light to create shadow.!
Isn't this defeating the purpose of IDL.?

Basically, "Yeah." Try working with the light probes over adding lights though. Baggins Bill has some good points on the lighting in P8 in some of the threads here.

Don't think I'm just being critical, lighting is my nemesis also.

Serious Noelclan, how do you use IDL ?

Look at this, it's not perfect but in this scene only two specular lights the rest is the environement ...

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1974810

Quote-"Don't think I'm just being critical, lighting is my nemesis also."_

I have been using  bb's  sphere and tutorials recently.. Also RDNA's TerraDome..

P8's lighting is much improved overall.  Maybe something new in SR2..

Lighting is my nemesis too.  I've been experimenting with everything at once-IDL and IBL plus a spotlight for using Inverse Square Law lighting.  I set up two figures, one a little behind the other with the spot light (with Inverse Square Law-ISL- activated) in front of the first one, the IBL light centered on both.  Haven't tried Specular Lighting yet.  I sort of like the results. Jan

Personally, I was afraid to post in the galleries for a long time but now after years, I've started.  I think the intimidation factor sinks in for newbies. When I posted my first vue pic, after nearly 50 hours of work, I received some constructive critique as my very FIRST comment.  It hurt at first, but in all honesty it was well deserved.  I just wish the artist who made the comments had taken time to also tell me what he liked about the picture instead of just letting me know what was wrong with it. 

For people just starting out, I think positive critique is great to encourage them to post more and develop their skills.  Then after maybe a few pics, people might add a comment or two on what could be done better.  It's all in the way its handled and lets face it, some people use kid gloves while others use an iron fist.

The problem is that a lot of the time artist don't include any sort of information about their images so you don't know how much work has gone into the image or what they're trying to achieve.  When I first starting posting I liked getting criticism because usually it would teach me something.  And of course a few praises encourages you to go on.

Quote - The problem is that a lot of the time artist don't include any sort of information about their images so you don't know how much work has gone into the image or what they're trying to achieve.  When I first starting posting I liked getting criticism because usually it would teach me something.  And of course a few praises encourages you to go on.

I noticed that too--on the majority of them and don't comment for the same reasons.  Its hard commenting on a scene when you don't know what Poser series did it and if using the V3 or V4 or Jessie or Sydney minus the purchased head and body morphs for the V series or if they made some of the props themselves-making some of the props one self is a definite plus.  Jan

A  Quote from another thread..

Quote - "Quote :-  " ... pissing in a violin ..."    Quote...

Can You please explain this phrase to Me / Us  ..?
Personally,  I find it Very insulting..
"

It's a french expression like "talking in the empty" ...  End Quote..

Even now the phrase has been explained.  I STILL find it insulting..

"Pissing in a violin"="talking in the empty" didn't really shed any light on the expression for me. I had figured it meant "pissing in the wind"="engaging in a futile endevor".

It cracks me up we are treated to "pissing in a violin" but "c'est en faisant des erreurs qu'on apprend" is far too arcane an expression to translate... "It is in making errors that we learn" is not quite the leap that is "pissing in a violin" I would hazard.

Does "pissing" earn a profanity advisory?

Following the pissing in a violin analogy to its logical conclusion, should I assume that pissing in a cello would  be a considerably worse waste of time? Or would you go in the other direction, such as pissing in a kazoo?
How about, say, urinating in an acoustic guitar? Does that lose its punch?

Holaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!

When i say  that i dont treat anyone !!! You need to learn yhe french language subtility ...

Quote - Following the pissing in a violin analogy to its logical conclusion, should I assume that pissing in a cello would  be a considerably worse waste of time? Or would you go in the other direction, such as pissing in a kazoo?
How about, say, urinating in an acoustic guitar? Does that lose its punch?

Is this the reason why stringed instruments are difficult to tune..??

You know how it is...  If you don't say anything like "Gush, gush, this is THE BEST yet!!!!" you are considered a troll.  Criticism is not really wanted in the gallery, no matter what they claim.
Someone told me once, on one of my early renders (pityful as they were), "You know, this is good, but if you do this and that, it would be great."  I have never forgotten that advice as it helped me a lot...

Quote - The problem is that a lot of the time artist don't include any sort of information about their images so you don't know how much work has gone into the image or what they're trying to achieve.  When I first starting posting I liked getting criticism because usually it would teach me something.  And of course a few praises encourages you to go on.

I'm going to pick on you now.:biggrin:

Ya don't have to know squat about the artist or the tools they are using to recognize lighting failures, composition failures, posing disasters, character floating an inch above the ground, etc.

I am with you on the usefulness of critique though. Too bad it only works for those that want to grow and learn.

It is hard to get good help these days..  #;0)

Quote - It is hard to get good help these days..  #;0)

SO true. Could be worse. Could upload your images to deviantart and get nothing but a handful of views, a few favorites, and absolutely zero comments or feedback nomatter how much you ask or beg, let alone constructive criticism or critique. At least here is both a forum, and you stand a chance in the gallery. And your already getting a bit of feedback, hints, and suggestions.

That said, I don't get much critique, hints or advice either (albeit I use solely Carrara). Its been mainly just learning as I go. (and tons of test renders). ;)

That's what is good about this thread, folks that want to learn are getting plenty of crits here.  We can plop them into our tool box and improve our stuff in the gallery. Okay your stuff in the gallery, I haven't posted anything yet.  Jan

Quote - That's what is good about this thread, folks that want to learn are getting plenty of crits here.  We can plop them into our tool box and improve our stuff in the gallery. Okay your stuff in the gallery, I haven't posted anything yet.  Jan

kool ;) 

Just keep in mind Carrara handles lighting differently, theres no orb / sphere setup with 3 point lighting, nor inverse square or negative lighting. Lights are in the prop form of arrows, be it bulb, tube, distant, sunlight, moonlight, etc. And for sun & moon light, aiming and positioning of those are controlled by the atmosphere sky controls. All my outdoor daylight scenes just use that one sunlight and Carrara does all the shadows itself. For indoor lighting bulb & tube (tube light = flourescent) - all lights cast shadows where placed, unless specified not to cast shadows.

But yeah, general tips, advice, suggestions and critique on technique does cross the translation though ;)

my gallery link if needed: www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php
I'm always happy to get feedback.

Yep, I know, got Carrara, Hexagon, and Vue 7 Pro Studio and the lighting system are quite different there. 

You need to know what software created the image.  One can't critique a Carrara image, using Poser stuff-you'll drive the poor fella nuts looking all over for IBL and IDL and Inverse Square Law functions in Carrara or Vue.  Jan 

Quote - I dont know how to translate this ... ' c'est en faisant des erreurs qu'on apprend "

One learns through one's mistakes.

I'm deliberately posting one such mistake for your critique. Please review: it's the culmination of a week's worth of reading threads on lighting. One such thread dead-ended back in 2003: the author proposed using a depth-mapped and raytraced light both placed in exactly the same place. Never posted a picture or anything, so I did exactly that, since the RT shadows were too harsh on Charlotte's face.

Seems to work, but then, I've been mistaken before (20 minutes ago, to be exact). Here's the link:
www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php

I've already re-done the pose: poor Charlotte looks like she's about to fall over. This render (to which I will provide a link on that above page) was done in Poser 8. Yes, Poser 8... I've decided to finally USE this brilliant piece of software I invested in. It is rendering much faster.

Quote - Holaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!

When i say  that i dont treat anyone !!! You need to learn the french language subtlety ...

The concept of "sous-entendu" is purely French, and a completely oblique notion to most non-French persons. I lived in France for two years before I finally started to catch on to what they heck they were actually saying:

"Mais, il est con comme un balai, ce mec la."

"Mais, que-ce que ca veut dire, 'con comme un balai'?"

"Ben, si tu le met la, il reste la!"

Translating this is pointless, because you kinda had to be there, but it about killed me laughing. But then, I'm weird.

Quote - > Quote - The problem is that a lot of the time artist don't include any sort of information about their images so you don't know how much work has gone into the image or what they're trying to achieve.  When I first starting posting I liked getting criticism because usually it would teach me something.  And of course a few praises encourages you to go on.

I'm going to pick on you now.:biggrin:
Ya don't have to know squat about the artist or the tools they are using to recognize lighting failures, composition failures, posing disasters, character floating an inch above the ground, etc.
I am with you on the usefulness of critique though. Too bad it only works for those that want to grow and learn.

Open season on Robynsveil's lame efforts. Go for it, please-please-please.

I'm never gonna learn squat, otherwise.

Oh, and forget compliments. I want to know what you think is glaringly missing. What did I leave out (besides a bit more detail on the background - this is a work in progress) or stuff up?

Sheesh, come to think of it, certain Aussie terms are pretty rude, when you think of it. I mean, the 'f' word is with reference to conventionally-accepted copulation, where "buggah" involves body parts more designed for exit than entrance, yet one hears the latter term even on the telly.

Go figure. It's thoughts like these that kept me out of the really good schools.

Took that layered concept to heart, Lisa: great idea. So, what? hide (make invisible) certain objects and render other ones, so the lighting remains the same? Poser 7 spat the dummy (Aussie-ism, Anthanasius, means: didn't like it and kicked up a fuss) when I added plants and stuff to the foreground. So, I'll be rendering them separately, I guess.

Quote - ... Global Illumination....if you aren't getting any shadows you're doing it wrong.

Might have a look at Vince Bagna's explanation on RDNA:
www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php

Glad I didn't put AO into any of my shaders, now. Not deliberately, mind you. I just didn't know how.

I have only about a half dozen  posts in my gallery , and a handful of comments on  each-   and ***only 2 comments  that i ever recieved were crtitical *** , and i was thankful  for those comments .

I dont know how i could only get 2  critical  comments  when  you  look  at  some of the garbage i have up  ;-)

PEOPLE  there is a CRITIQUE  forum !  did you  all know that???
It  is  a  DEAD  FORUM   WHY AREN"T WE USING IT

Let' make it the  new  "gallery"  for those  who  are more into  the technical  operation of Poser  and more into making our  own  work, and into  critical  feedback  and learning.

You  are not gonna stop  the blind  praise for  crappy renders or snapshots  of the grandkids  in the gallery. a lot of members  obviously  like that  whole gig  and  they  have a right to  enjoy themselves doing it.

I agree, Santicor... and I suggest we fill the area under the image with technical specifics that others can analyse and offer suggestions on based on their experience, and thus in the discussions that ensue the blind praisers kinda get phased out (they're going to feel like I have in some of the shader discussions: a bit overwhelmed).
Yes? Good strategy?

Are you using IDLs in this, Noel? Looks like you might have it sorted, then, mate...

Quote - Someone wanted shadows..?

Hey, now you've got shadows happening. And the pose is looking more animated.

Quote - Took that layered concept to heart, Lisa: great idea. So, what? hide (make invisible) certain objects and render other ones, so the lighting remains the same? Poser 7 spat the dummy (Aussie-ism, Anthanasius, means: didn't like it and kicked up a fuss) when I added plants and stuff to the foreground. So, I'll be rendering them separately, I guess.

Dig out your Kerkythea manual and read over the layer masking section. The concept is pretty well covered and applies to just about any render engine including FF and 3Delight.

For Poser FF this helps with multiple render passes: Advanced Render Settings , does the grunt work for you.

There used to be something comparable for DS but I don't know if it has been updated for DS3.

Let me repeat though, "Multi-pass rendering is not something that has to be done." Anyone can render a scene, call it a day and sometimes have very good results. However if you want ultimate control over the end result multi-pass rendering + postwork simply can't be beat.

Render in passes and save the generated masks. The masks are very useful for postworking the scene and can be useful in shader building.

Examples:

Decided you want to change the lip color on V4 after all? Are you going to re-render the entire scene or just replace the color on the rendered lip layer in post?

Want to use a mask in the lip shader? Multi-pass render a front orthographic view and use the generated mask as the base to create the shader mask.

Want to change the background? Switch it out in an image editor or re-render the background and just the parts that cast shadows on the background, remix with the original render parts.

Want to have re-lighting available? Add a normal pass then re-light at will in post.

Got a hot spot that you can't fix and keep the the scene integrity in render? Use dodge tool in image editing on the blown out render result or re-render that portion at a lower light intensity and composite in post to balance with the rest of the scene.

Like those tinted B&W pictures? Very easy to do if you render in passes as it significantly simplifies the selection of the area you wish to tint.

The point is to do as much as feasible for any given project in the render engine but create the option to expand the artist interpretation of the piece after rendering the meshes.

I do a lot of archvis at work so I have to retain the flexibility to switch out components quickly at client request. If I had to rely on rendering the scene again every time there was a miniscule change I would get very little done. By rendering in passes I can make changes efficiently.

Granted I don't use Poser or DS for anything important but the concept is the same in any render engine that supports multiple passes. Not using that capability is akin to having a 4-wheel drive vehicle and only driving it on the street. Yeah it works but you're not getting the full utilization of the equipment.

Reading this, I realise I have no clue about multi-pass rendering. I'll dig out that Kerkythea manual and have a read first thing in the morning (it's almost two in the wee hours here, now). Thanks for the enlightenment, Lisa - now if I can just stop blushing long enough to get to sleep....

Got that Advanced Render Settings tool, btw... currently at half price at RDNA.

Great way to confirm to people I'm a fool: ask a stoopid question. lol

Quote - > Quote - Someone wanted shadows..?

Hey, now you've got shadows happening. And the pose is looking more animated.

I'm thinking she pulled the blade cause she saw the rat's shadow first. The pose looks like she's decided to just step on the vermin instead.:lol:

@Noel

See how adding the shadows affected the interpretation of the scene and along with the posing made it more dynamic? Because of this I was able to imagine the above scenario and have a chuckle....even though it's a simple picture it engaged me as the viewer, without the lighting and pose I would have passed right by it....and what separates art from Art is viewer involvement.

Just to visually enforce the difference for yourself render the same scene without the shadows and compare the two.

My gallery post that asks for suggestions is suffering from bad lighting, I have everything lit but it just doesn't work. Several of the suggestions given pointed out ideas that I was blocked on in this picture so are helpful and exactly what I needed to get over the hump. I haven't reposted because I'm working some of the suggestions into the scene and modeling some additional props but those suggestions that work will be included in the final  render.

It also suffers from the ground and background not blending well that I spotted in several of your images so note that it's a fairly common problem. Part of what I have going on is a matter of perspective. The main figures are supposed to be looking out across a desert valley from a cliff edge at sort of noonish during the day and I'm just not getting that separation that shows the effect.

Since I know what's wrong with the picture but am looking for ideas to fix the issues "Great picture" type comments are absolutely nonessential to my goals. I mean wonderful that someone likes the concept but not relevant to agenda. (Yeah, I know, after baldly saying that I'll never get another good comment on any render I post here. Yep, positively blew any chance of being part of the clique.:biggrin:)

Quote - Reading this, I realise I have no clue about multi-pass rendering. I'll dig out that Kerkythea manual and have a read first thing in the morning (it's almost two in the wee hours here, now). Thanks for the enlightenment, Lisa - now if I can just stop blushing long enough to get to sleep....

Got that Advanced Render Settings tool, btw... currently at half price at RDNA.

Great way to confirm to people I'm a fool: ask a stoopid question. lol

Nah, not a "stoopid question", you're just so focused that you don't look at things from other angles sometimes so stop with the blushing already.:biggrin:

The documentation with the Advanced Render Settings tool are pretty informative too and I think there are some tuts here on Rendo concerning the matter, if not "Google is your friend."

Quote-- "Got that Advanced Render Settings tool, btw... currently at half price at RDNA.'

Does this work with P8 ?   I noticed a Render Studio For Poser 8

And am I breaking anything in TOS by adding a link? 

I dont like that personally ... For all my scene i create new light i never use light set i think it's not the good way to learn lightning a scene ...
 

Quote - I dont like that personally ... For all my scene i create new light i never use light set i think it's not the good way to learn lightning a scene ...
 

Perhaps I did not say correctly.   Does RDNA's  Advanced Render Settings Tool work with Poser8 ?

Attached Link: Lighting Experiment

Quote - > Quote - I dont like that personally ... For all my scene i create new light i never use light set i think it's not the good way to learn lightning a scene ...

Perhaps I did not say correctly.   Does RDNA's  Advanced Render Settings Tool work with Poser8 ?

I'll soon find out, won't I, Noel? lol

No seriously, I'll have a go and let you know.

This whole multi-pass render concept is incredible... I did google it and whadaya know, hit on a page with Jeremy Birn's exerpts from his book Digital Lighting & Rendering:
[ www.3drender.com/light/compositing/index.html ]
...which you recommended, Lisa, and now I can see why, thumbing through some of the topics covered. Might have to give myself a Christmas present from Amazon... lol

*"Yes? Good strategy?"

*Yes I usually talk  about the process a little bit in  my little write ups - but now I am going to be more detailed,  so  to  invite only reponses that  address the details I mention, and to  hopefully get criticism  and suggesitons

GOOD IDEA

Ditto on the book.. HoHoHo

I do have "Advanced Render settings" in My Runtime but I am not sure about its use in P8..

A while back, I was the Critique forum moderator.  Kinda quiet but there were a few regular posters in there.  Everyone - including me - benefitted from suggestions and advice given in there.  I always welcome critical comments on my work.

 I rarely postwork, not because I can't but because it bores the hell out of me.  Also, I don't see the point in making a so-so render and tarting it up in Photoshop if you are trying to push your knowledge of Poser.  For a client, it's a different matter; then I'll use whatever is to hand. 

I think the real probleme here in town is, that most people don´t have a real look at an image. Many comments are copied and past only, with the hope to get many comments and faves back. Some have a second, third and fourth account to write and fave own images. A point for this are certainly the sh*** art charts,becourse everybody wants to be the best and at the top of them.

I´m tired of this all, and so I post most of my "nice images" into other galleries.

wow that's pretty heavily into  conspirast theory .

you think  there's losers  that really do that???

why ????

who cares if you  top  the coments  hits  chart?

is that  going to  get you  a job or something?

 wow if thats  true, Sivana,  that's  cra- zee.

Quote - I think the real probleme here in town is, that most people don´t have a real look at an image. Many comments are copied and past only, with the hope to get many comments and faves back. Some have a second, third and fourth account to write and fave own images. A point for this are certainly the sh*** art charts,becourse everybody wants to be the best and at the top of them.

I´m tired of this all, and so I post most of my "nice images" into other galleries.

Unfortunately, this is true.  I was sucked in by one particular person (who shall remain nameless)..

Two (yes two) images in the gallery,  both images high on the charts within a week..  Go figure,  all done by giving Everybody glowing comments and putting almost everybody into their Favorite Artist file.  Obviously many people responded in Kind..  Too easy to manipulate the charts..

Santicor - doing a render for you at the moment re: your sitemail... and thanks so much for it!

Re: Sivana's point... unfortunately, there's a bit of an ego thing having high chart ratings... but even more dismaying, it's a means of getting your product noticed. Get someone to do a great render and wow, people beat a path to your e-door.

I'm always going to be poor... I'll never be comfortable with these strategies.

Quote--  "I'm always going to be poor... I'll never be comfortable with these strategies."

AMEN..!!

Quote -
wow that's pretty heavily into  conspirast theory .

you think  there's losers  that really do that???

why ????

who cares if you  top  the coments  hits  chart?

is that  going to  get you  a job or something?

 wow if thats  true, Sivana,  that's  cra- zee.

Actually, it is true. There have been many cases of that sort of thing happening here in the past. I don't know if they watch IP addresses here and ban clones, but I doubt it.
So I can't point my finger at any one example and say, yeah, that's a clone worshiping himself, but people being what people are, you can count on it being fact that it happens here and happens a lot.
I believe that most (if not all) of the contests are now judged by moderators and coordinators. I'm not sure since I rarely look at any of them but it seems to me the last one or two I checked out weren't open to public voting. They used to be though, before countless allegations of cheating.

Is that going to give you a job or something, you ask?
Well, maybe, maybe not. They do have categories for Most Viewed, Most Commented, and Best Rated, and if I were looking here to find someone with a style I needed in order to commission someone, I would probably look at those categories first.

It's not really conspiracy theory to expect people to lie and cheat and misrepresent, especially when it's a matter of popularity and potentially money.
Look at some of the examples of blatant theft of copyrighted meshes and whatever else by merchants who have attempted to pass other's work off as their own. There have been many examples of that here over the years,. While that's an extreme example of desperation, the fact that it has happened (and will continue to happen)  suggests the probability that many many more minor offenses occur unnoticed, such as people using clone accounts to boost their stats.
I wouldn't say everybody does it, or even a majority. I'm sure those who blatantly lie and try to cheat the system are well in the minority, but it would be a very safe bet to make that it does happen and happens frequently.