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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Jun 12 6:07 pm)



Subject: Genesis woman


drawn ( ) posted Wed, 29 March 2023 at 2:15 PM · edited Sun, 09 June 2024 at 2:21 AM

I see in renderosity a number of cuteness poses that specify they’re for Genesis woman or will poser 13 for Mac include this fabulous gal? If not, can I use the poses with say la femme or Norie?

drawn


jennblake ( ) posted Wed, 29 March 2023 at 2:34 PM
jennblake has moved this thread from the MarketPlace Customer Support forum to the Poser - OFFICIAL forum as of Wednesday, March 29, 2023 2:34 pm


RHaseltine ( ) posted Wed, 29 March 2023 at 4:05 PM

Genesis is usually the Daz Studio weight mapped figure, which is not natively supported in Poser. The official way to get Genesis (or Genesis 2) into Poser was the DSON Importer for Poser, but that required an older version of Poser than is in the current Poser build, and I would assume the same is true for Poser 13 (which means that the importer is no longer avaiiable).


drawn ( ) posted Wed, 29 March 2023 at 8:02 PM

Well, darn it. Is there a substitute model i poser got the Genesis dame who can correctly “wear” some Genesis poses, outfits, etc.?

drawn


Y-Phil ( ) posted Thu, 30 March 2023 at 1:40 AM

For what concerns outfits: you may try them, especially d-form based, import them as OBJ items and use them in the cloth room, as dynamic clothes.
Just as an example: a g8 top on an old AIko3:

ZgALxEDBeJhPN84orcDKpCHRT1GdxC7mkanxcD3t.jpg

PhYl.


Win10 on i7 8700K@4.3Ghz, 64Gb, Asus TUF Gaming RTX 4070 OC Edition, 2x 2Tb ssd + 6+4Tb hd  + 1x 8Tb hd + 1 10T NAS, Poser 11, Poser 12  and now Poser 13 


FVerbaas ( ) posted Thu, 30 March 2023 at 1:55 AM
Forum Coordinator

To convert poses from DUF to Poser format you could look at Ken's Pose Converter: https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/152558/duf-pose-converter-for-poser-12

If your Genesis figure is Genesis9, with 'A' pose and separate 'twist' joints, you may be out of luck. There was a 'Nova' figure, shaped and posed like G9, with split joints. It appears it was withdrawn from the marketplace. 

Alternative is to convert a G9 from DS. There's some threads about this in the forum, but you may need Poser11 (DSON). DAZ never updated their product.




FVerbaas ( ) posted Thu, 30 March 2023 at 2:39 AM · edited Thu, 30 March 2023 at 2:41 AM
Forum Coordinator

Update: Apparently Nova's maker, Vyusur, moved all her stuff, including Nova-for-Poser, to Renderhub. Nova is now on sale there.


drawn ( ) posted Thu, 30 March 2023 at 6:35 AM

Holy cow, thanks folks for info. I better look at bova


drawn ( ) posted Thu, 30 March 2023 at 6:38 AM

I have no or little understanding of row of symbols on each mailbox one looks like quote marks the second love EarPods eh?


emjay247 ( ) posted Thu, 30 March 2023 at 9:23 AM

Is there a previous forum post somewhere for this user with instructions on how to export Genesis from Daz Studio as a CR2 file for native use in Poser?

 


FVerbaas ( ) posted Thu, 30 March 2023 at 12:35 PM · edited Thu, 30 March 2023 at 12:41 PM
Forum Coordinator

emjay247 posted at 9:23 AM Thu, 30 March 2023 - #4459956

Is there a previous forum post somewhere for this user with instructions on how to export Genesis from Daz Studio as a CR2 file for native use in Poser?

 

There was a long thread about this started by willdial.

Forum search yielded recent result: https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2914252/genesis-8-in-poser-11


Ken1171_Designs ( ) posted Thu, 30 March 2023 at 3:29 PM

As far as I know, it is still possible to simply export Genesis 1 and 2 straight from DAZ Studio by using their free CR2 exporting plugin. It hasn't been updated in ages, but neither have Gen1 and Gen2. As for G3 and 8, they use a different rigging, and bringing them to Poser is harder. There were tutorials here at the Rendo forums on how to do it, but I think Gen3 required special tools.   

However, I personally think it's no use to bring Genesis to Poser, because we lose everything the platform offers. If I want to use Genesis, I do it in DS where she has all the bells and whistles. Remember - Genesis is not a figure - it's a platform. They had to create a new DS version from scratch just for her, and it won't work in any older DS versions. They even introduced a new DUF file format (JSON) just for Genesis support. Genesis 1 and 2 use traditional TriAx rigging, while 3 and 8 use "Simple Bone" game engine rigging, where ball-joint joints need to have 2 bones to compensate for the single weight map per joint limitation. This is why Gen1 and 2 are easier to export to Poser, and 3 and 8 are not. That's it in a nutshell.   

For those who keep asking Genesis to work in Poser, that would be the quickest way to get sued by DAZ for IP infringement. Poser cannot legally use or support any of it without infringing copyright law. Anyone who makes a figure that looks like the same shape as any of the DAZ figures would also be sued pretty quickly by DAZ. It has happened at least twice in the past that I know of. So asking Poser to support Genesis is silly. 



My Store at Renderosity

Characters, Body Sculpts, Morph Corrections, Outfits, Python Scripts, Universal Heads, and Videogames!


RHaseltine ( ) posted Thu, 30 March 2023 at 3:46 PM · edited Thu, 30 March 2023 at 3:52 PM

The issue with Genesis 3+ is the dual quaternion skin-bidning, not the use of a single weight map (which a triAx-only setup could mimic by making each map the same, and zeroing the bulge maps).

Duf was a move to an open standard (JSON, as you say) rather than the proprietary, binary .daz format. The initial releases of DS 4 beta could, as I recall, save to .daz (I'm not certain of the sequence there) but I don't hink the chnage in formnat was forced - the old format already had the ability to handle weight-mapped figuers, as fdar as I know (the OptiTex clothes) and could certainly handle separate morph files so it could quite plausibly have been extended as needed (but the format was becoming problematic regardless).

Giving Poser the ability to import .duf content would not require copying the content, so I don't see how it would entail copyright concerns. Poser now has many of the required features, Dual Quaternions being an obvious exception, but of course that says nothing to its practicality or desirability, and of course an imported figure would not have built-in support for soem Poser antive featrues such as Walk Designer.


Ken1171_Designs ( ) posted Thu, 30 March 2023 at 4:47 PM

RHaseltine posted at 3:46 PM Thu, 30 March 2023 - #4460085

Giving Poser the ability to import .duf content would not require copying the content, so I don't see how it would entail copyright concerns. Poser now has many of the required features, Dual Quaternions being an obvious exception, but of course that says nothing to its practicality or desirability, and of course an imported figure would not have built-in support for soem Poser antive featrues such as Walk Designer.

I have 3 plugins for Poser 12+ in my store that already read and import DUF format straight into Poser, and that indeed does not infringe any copyright law. That is not the issue. The issue is that Genesis is not a "figure", it's a "platform". Every feature it can perform depends on DS4 to function, meaning they remade DAZ Studio to support it. In other words, Genesis will not work in DS 1, 2 or 3. It only works in 4, where the "platform" was created specifically for it. It's this "Genesis Platform" that is copyrighted, to include all of its functionality.   

I know it's funny to put DAZ and copyright on the same sentence, since they had no shame when they stole Poser rigging to use in DAZ Studio. They gave it a fancy name (TriAx), but it's the exact same Poser rigging used in legacy figures. If not, legacy figures wouldn't work in their software. For those who don't believe me, I have talked to one of their figure riggers, and he confirmed that it's the exact same rigging stolen from Poser. If it weren't the same, it wouldn't work seamlessly in both programs. I never understood why Poser didn't sue them, but I suspect it had something to do with Poser being sold from one company to the next so many times in a row. These companies (probably) didn't want to get into legal disputes with a larger corporation. Who knows?  

I agree that it was a good thing that DAZ decided to drop the proprietary file formats, and adopt an open standard like JSON. That was a long standing request from the vendors, so it was a good move.   

About Dual Quats, Poser supports it too. It was used in the Kinect MOCAP support added in Poser 11, and even the Python API has access to Dual Quaternion math off the bat. I have used it in my "Scatter Tool" plugin for Poser 11 and 12, so it's not something new. The rigging in Genesis 3/8 is the classic "Simple Bone" used in game engines for ages. Dual Quats is the math used to calculate the rotations, which is also commonly used in game engines. Poser uses Euler rotations, but it could be quickly replaced with Dual Quats without changing anything in the existing rigging. It's just the math used to calculate rotations, not the rigging itself.   

2 major advantages of DQ over Euler rotations are the elimination of "gimbal locks", and also the faster calculation speed. I think some parts of the Poser interface use DQs, but the rigging is still Euler rotations. 



My Store at Renderosity

Characters, Body Sculpts, Morph Corrections, Outfits, Python Scripts, Universal Heads, and Videogames!


RHaseltine ( ) posted Fri, 31 March 2023 at 4:14 PM

TriAx is not Poser-style parametric rigging, it is weight mapped with a separate map for each axis and for the bulges. Poser added weight mapping later, using a slightly different approach in some respects as I understand it.


JoePublic ( ) posted Fri, 31 March 2023 at 4:22 PM · edited Fri, 31 March 2023 at 4:23 PM
Hubert.Holin ( ) posted Fri, 31 March 2023 at 5:58 PM
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Ken1171_Designs posted at 4:47 PM Thu, 30 March 2023 - #4460106

RHaseltine posted at 3:46 PM Thu, 30 March 2023 - #4460085

Giving Poser the ability to import .duf content would not require copying the content, so I don't see how it would entail copyright concerns. Poser now has many of the required features, Dual Quaternions being an obvious exception, but of course that says nothing to its practicality or desirability, and of course an imported figure would not have built-in support for soem Poser antive featrues such as Walk Designer.

I have 3 plugins for Poser 12+ in my store that already read and import DUF format straight into Poser, and that indeed does not infringe any copyright law. That is not the issue. The issue is that Genesis is not a "figure", it's a "platform". Every feature it can perform depends on DS4 to function, meaning they remade DAZ Studio to support it. In other words, Genesis will not work in DS 1, 2 or 3. It only works in 4, where the "platform" was created specifically for it. It's this "Genesis Platform" that is copyrighted, to include all of its functionality.   

I know it's funny to put DAZ and copyright on the same sentence, since they had no shame when they stole Poser rigging to use in DAZ Studio. They gave it a fancy name (TriAx), but it's the exact same Poser rigging used in legacy figures. If not, legacy figures wouldn't work in their software. For those who don't believe me, I have talked to one of their figure riggers, and he confirmed that it's the exact same rigging stolen from Poser. If it weren't the same, it wouldn't work seamlessly in both programs. I never understood why Poser didn't sue them, but I suspect it had something to do with Poser being sold from one company to the next so many times in a row. These companies (probably) didn't want to get into legal disputes with a larger corporation. Who knows?  

I agree that it was a good thing that DAZ decided to drop the proprietary file formats, and adopt an open standard like JSON. That was a long standing request from the vendors, so it was a good move.   

About Dual Quats, Poser supports it too. It was used in the Kinect MOCAP support added in Poser 11, and even the Python API has access to Dual Quaternion math off the bat. I have used it in my "Scatter Tool" plugin for Poser 11 and 12, so it's not something new. The rigging in Genesis 3/8 is the classic "Simple Bone" used in game engines for ages. Dual Quats is the math used to calculate the rotations, which is also commonly used in game engines. Poser uses Euler rotations, but it could be quickly replaced with Dual Quats without changing anything in the existing rigging. It's just the math used to calculate rotations, not the rigging itself.   

2 major advantages of DQ over Euler rotations are the elimination of "gimbal locks", and also the faster calculation speed. I think some parts of the Poser interface use DQs, but the rigging is still Euler rotations. 

Hi Ken

I am curious as to the "platform" comment you made.

As I understand, perhaps erroneously, as far as the use of figures for posing and rendering is concerned, Poser ans DS can be characterised as performing as a model of some universe: its laws, its objects and its geometry. The laws in question are mostly the interaction of light with objects (essentially their shaders), some interaction of wind with objects, the behaviour of some objects such as cloth, strands (hairs), perhaps soft body or solid physics, liquids, the possibility of ubiquity or not (instancing), etc.. The objects are just that, props, figures (with heir caracteritics, such as bending etc.), the global setting. The geometry include positions (of the lights, props, etc.), morphs…

The laws of the universe emulated and specific behaviours (such as bending) of one software, however, are just concepts, and can be replicated in anyd other software, provided the software has the code (or the api) for such. While some properties may not be immediately transferable (it is unclear, for me at least, if instancing is possible within Poser; c.f. https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2944252), some which are not possible by use of the software per se, can be, to some extent, provided by the use of extensions, be they plugins or some other form of such, as you know well. As concepts, these are afforded no protection under any set of law I have heard of (IANAL!).

Specific likelinesses, on the other hand, can be protected: you could not reasonably create a clone of one vendor's leading figure made for one software, and sell it for use in another software, without the authorisation of the figure's creator. But still, one may translate a description of an object prepared in a format for one software into an equivalent description in a format for another software, if only for the personal use of the translator (fair use). This, of course, is only possible if the description is actually accessible: as I recall, in early versions of Poser, some figures (the manikin?) were embedded in the software's code. As the translation of most objects in one software, say DS, is possible into a description for another software (by means of "bridges"), evidently at least part the descriptions is accessible, be it through another software and a bridge. It may be, of course, that the format used for the description for use in the original format is not documented.

So, after this far-too-long-winded introduction, what, in your opinion, are the elements which would render the translation of the object mentioned by OP impossible, impractical, or illegal?


Richard60 ( ) posted Fri, 31 March 2023 at 7:09 PM

The problem of course is the use of Bridges.  If Any other program could use a Genesis figure with ALL the features it has in DS then there would be no need to have a bridge.  Genesis has been brought into Poser in the past and the DSON importer that DAZ made ran a mini-version of studio and translated Genesis to Poser.  It had to because Poser 9/2012 did not have sub-division as part of the Poser Program.  And yet Genesis in Poser 9 could be sub-divided.  If this was done by some magic of an arrangement of numbers inside the Genesis figures object file why did Poser not rearrange the object files for its figures?   A static doll is easy to bring in.  It is being able to do what the DS program does is what the difficultly is.  Since DAZ has not put their programs source code out in the public domain and that is where the magic of Genesis is located then it limits what can be done by other programs.

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12, 13


Hubert.Holin ( ) posted Fri, 31 March 2023 at 7:55 PM
Online Now!

Richard60 posted at 7:09 PM Fri, 31 March 2023 - #4460256

The problem of course is the use of Bridges.  If Any other program could use a Genesis figure with ALL the features it has in DS then there would be no need to have a bridge.  Genesis has been brought into Poser in the past and the DSON importer that DAZ made ran a mini-version of studio and translated Genesis to Poser.  It had to because Poser 9/2012 did not have sub-division as part of the Poser Program.  And yet Genesis in Poser 9 could be sub-divided.  If this was done by some magic of an arrangement of numbers inside the Genesis figures object file why did Poser not rearrange the object files for its figures?   A static doll is easy to bring in.  It is being able to do what the DS program does is what the difficultly is.  Since DAZ has not put their programs source code out in the public domain and that is where the magic of Genesis is located then it limits what can be done by other programs.

Yes, a bridge can translate formats, but then you can also duplicate some functionality (*not* the code!) of one software into another, within limits obviously, by various means. This is, as far as I understand, perfectly legal (as for instance Wine does, in a way, for some notorious OS). I still have some Poser-native products whose CR2 invoques scripts, at which point either Poser has an api for what you want, or you can roll your own (which admittedly might be quite a task in some cases). As well, one might also use a third software to perform the translation, provided of course that the source and target formats are publicly documented, and one has the time and inclination to do so; in particular, I remember that a long time ago, someone had built a connection to an external implementation of Python, where available tools might be easier to invoque than with the embedded version which ships with Poser.


(No yet on Poser 13: waiting for the macOS version!)


emjay247 ( ) posted Sat, 01 April 2023 at 12:53 PM
JoePublic posted at 4:22 PM Fri, 31 March 2023 - #4460230

These posts are about turning Genesis 1 into a native Poser figure.


https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2874212

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2877291

https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2874695

*


These are fantastic resources. Thank you!


adp001 ( ) posted Sat, 01 April 2023 at 1:59 PM

There is a free and open source bridge from DAZ to Blender. DAZ has one too, but more complete is the one from Thomas Larsson, available here:
https://diffeomorphic.blogspot.com/p/daz-importer-version-16.html

The complete Python source code is available. Figures converted are fully functional in Blender (it could be like that in Poser).

DAZ knows about the bridge. And almost any Blender user. Also from the commercial department. Means: Several thousand new users for DAZ figures. That's why DAZ wouldn't dream of banning the whole thing. Even if they could.

I'm not interested in a DAZ bridge to Poser, because I use studio and convert to Blender if I need it. That's why I haven't started implementing a DAZ/Poser bridge based on Diffeomorphics code yet.




Richard60 ( ) posted Sun, 02 April 2023 at 12:16 PM

Fully functional as in the figure can be morphed from a dog to a horse to a person and all the textures change and clothing autofits with no other inputs required?

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12, 13


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