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Subject: Do these teeth look better?


odf ( ) posted Sat, 16 July 2005 at 3:19 PM · edited Tue, 16 April 2024 at 11:26 AM

file_271091.jpg

I had this embarrassing experience again of posting something to the galleries that on hindsight did not seem quite ready. Well, I guess that's what viewer comments are for, and many commented on the teeth in my image "Stop...". I've tried some more things and I think both the eyes and teeth are better now. What do you think? Original render (without the postwork) on the left, new versio on the right. The most important change here is that I added some ambient light with the inverted teeth texture plugged into the color channel. Diffuse is tinted slightly yellowish while ambient is tinted slightly blueish. I also changed the eye from anisotropic to regular specular and a few other small things. I think I still need to make the teeth a bit brighter and the eye whites a tiny bit darker.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


ynsaen ( ) posted Sat, 16 July 2005 at 3:24 PM

I think the teeth are fine, but definitely on the eyewhites

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)


odf ( ) posted Sat, 16 July 2005 at 3:40 PM

ynsaen: you mean to say you agree on the eyewhites?

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


ynsaen ( ) posted Sat, 16 July 2005 at 3:42 PM

eye whites a tiny bit darker. sorry. I think they are still a bit bright overall -- should lean more into a yellow grey tone than a white one.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)


face_off ( ) posted Sat, 16 July 2005 at 5:57 PM

olaf....

Image on the right is much much better. If you are going for super realism, you need to get the contrast between skin, eyes and teeth right. The following tone comparisions are for skin/eyewhite/teeth WITHOUT specular - but in a bright area.

From the studies I've done, if the figures cheecks are RGB (255, 175, 130) - ie. redder and brighter than in your image - then eyewhites would be around....210, 180, 165. So in your render, her eyewhites they are perhaps a little blue and a little too bright. Angelina Jolie is about the only reference model I've seen who has white eyewhites (ie. r=g=b) - almost everyone else has (r > g > b). Your render has (r < g < b).

So back on-topic - to her teeth. From a bunch of reference shoots, it seems that teeth are a relative color to a persons eyewhites - which approximately an RGB of approximately to the following formula (teeth R = eyewhite red + (0 to 20), teeth G = eyewhite R - 20, teeth B = eyewhite R - 30). Abviously peoples teeth vary depending on yellowness, lighting, if they are a smoker, etc. But your average hollywood superstar seems to conform to these figures.

So, back to your render - in you render, her eyewhites are around 230, 240, 250 (near the lacrimal), so matching teeth would be about 240, 220, 210 - and your are approx 210, 195, 165 - so the right color, but a little dark. But to me, the diffuse power of her eyewhites should be reduced to match her current teeth, and tinted red.

[rereads msg] Mmmmmm, that all sounds a bit complex, but hopefully will make sense. PS - you need to throw a bump map on the teeth to get the reflections right.

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odf ( ) posted Sat, 16 July 2005 at 6:12 PM

Paul, you are incredible. I will try that and post the result here.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


obm890 ( ) posted Sat, 16 July 2005 at 7:00 PM

I've been puzzling over how to get teeth to look like something other than a row of peppermints or badly made dentures. They don't really want any AO because that gives grey-black shadows which you never see on real teeth. Shadows between teeth (if present at all) are lust slightly darker tooth-colour. They also vary in colour from yellower at the gum (where they are thicker) to more blue-ish at the tips where they are much more translucent. I reckon they need a bit of translucence, sss or something, but not enough to make them 'glow in the dark' further back in the mouth. Maybe some sort of translucence map/mask? Gums too, can sometimes be surprisingly pale where they meet the tooth (I guess from being stretched quite thin over a light-filled white thing).



byAnton ( ) posted Sat, 16 July 2005 at 7:37 PM

I think your changes look great. I love the render regardless. Very nice!!

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."


Over 100,000 Downloads....


odf ( ) posted Sat, 16 July 2005 at 9:48 PM

file_271098.jpg

Thanks for all the tips and feedback! Discussing these things helps a lot. Here's my next version. I've darkened and redened the eyeballs a bit and played with the highlights on the teeth. Any comments or further suggestions?

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


byAnton ( ) posted Sat, 16 July 2005 at 9:52 PM

Looking awesome. I don't know how easy it is for you to do it but I would make the soft eye rim(lacrimal) and tongue a bit more red and wet.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."


Over 100,000 Downloads....


GabrielK ( ) posted Sat, 16 July 2005 at 10:01 PM

Looks great, much improved from the original render. To me the shading between the teeth still looks a bit too pronounced though.


face_off ( ) posted Sat, 16 July 2005 at 10:42 PM

file_271099.jpg

Olaf - her eyes look sensation. They could maybe still do with 10 units less blue (adjust in the diffuse_color node). They are also missing a shadow on the eyewhite from her top lid. Maybe raising (elevating) the main light might help with this - or you can plug a (1-AmbientOcclusion) node into the Tranparency of the eye trans material, and set the diffuse_color to black so get an AO shadow. Teeth should have 10 units less blue than green - and on the above there is 20 units less blue than green, which is why they look slightly green (eventhough they are actually slightly red). So reducing the green content of the diffuse_color of her teeth by 10 should get them spot on. Also - what are you using for specular on her teeth? They look a touch dry. Maybe try anisotopic - but you'll need a good tooth bump map to get the exact look. In the above Jessi mouth (which you've probably seen before), I halved the diffuse_value and plugged the texturemap for her teeth into the ambient - which has reduced the darkness between her teeth well, and given a bit of an sss/translucent look.

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odf ( ) posted Sat, 16 July 2005 at 11:36 PM

Paul, I've tried anisotropic in the alternate specular, but couldn't really control it well. For one thing, it didn't react to bumps. So I went back to the regular specular, but of course, I can always increase the highlight size. I've actually plugged (1-texturemap) into the ambient because the texture tends to be darker towards the edges of the teeth. I could try and boost up the intensity a little. The teeth bump here is just an fBM node. I'm sure I could to better, but where would I start looking for a good tooth bump?

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


linkdink ( ) posted Sat, 16 July 2005 at 11:44 PM

All you guys are amazing. I've never seen Poser teeth look so good. I wish my own teeth were that nice... and as easily adjustable.....

Gallery


face_off ( ) posted Sun, 17 July 2005 at 12:16 AM

Olaf...a number of ppl have said how hard it is to control the anisotopic, but I think that's because it needs the right bump to work properly. Once you've got a good strong bump on the teeth, the anisotopic settles down really nicely. I don't think fbm is good enough - you need to make an actual map up. For the above teeth, I put together a bumpmap in photoshop - was very easy - I'd post an example, but it's in a package, so that would be a no-no. Bump was set at 0.02 (inches), and Anisotopic color was (30, 30, 30), value 1, highlight size 0.05. Good idea plugging 1-texturemap into ambient! Gets around the texturing problem. Teeth texturemaps really shouldn't have an shadowing built into them - it's up to the renderer to do that.

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odf ( ) posted Sun, 17 July 2005 at 12:31 AM

I suck at doing texture maps, but I guess I'll give it a try. Get the visual: Olaf trying to rub his teeth really dry, then light from the side and take a photo to help him understand the structure. Or else, standing in front of a mirror for hours wiggeling his head and trying to memorize.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


odf ( ) posted Sun, 17 July 2005 at 12:34 AM

In a package? Oh, well then ... :-)

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


face_off ( ) posted Sun, 17 July 2005 at 1:05 AM

Well if you get the package (it's The Real Jessi), you will look at the teeth bumpmap and think "that's it? I could have done THAT!". Run you tongue over the front of your teeth - feel the vertical humps - that's all that needs to be on the bump.

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justpatrick ( ) posted Sun, 17 July 2005 at 1:12 AM

I think the teeth look almost perfect in post #9. It looks like she has lipstick on, so I'm just wondering if her lips shouldn't have more of a glossy sheen to them mayabe? That's really a great render though, and the skin looks very good. I wish there was a way to make hair more realistic in poser... I mean without the help of photoshop. Dynamic hair seems to look really good in some renders, but I can't do anything with it myself. Takes too long to render, and I have no idea yet how to make the strands look good.


odf ( ) posted Sun, 17 July 2005 at 1:18 PM

Well if you get the package (it's The Real Jessi), you will look at the teeth bumpmap and think "that's it? I could have done THAT!". Run you tongue over the front of your teeth - feel the vertical humps - that's all that needs to be on the bump. Paul, you're really not up to the state of the art in advertising, are you? :-) Relax, I was thinking about getting the package anyway, because I think you can never have too many Morris textures. The teeth bumpmaps would have only been a bonus. Anyway, when I run my tongue over my teeth, they feel perfectly smooth. Maybe I should get an upgrade for my tongue. Fingers work better for me, or, as I said, inspecting my teeth closely in the mirror. It looks like she has lipstick on, so I'm just wondering if her lips shouldn't have more of a glossy sheen to them mayabe? Yes, I thought about that too. As Jessi has no extra lips material, it would have required either creating one or else masking the lips with an appropriate bit map. So far, I was just too lazy to do that, but maybe I'll try now.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


nruddock ( ) posted Sun, 17 July 2005 at 1:53 PM

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/freestuff.ez?Form.Contrib=JohnRickardJR&Topsectionid=0

JohnRickardJR has some lip masks for Jessi in the FreeStuff, see attached link.

(Jim Burton added a lip material to Glamourous Jessi).


odf ( ) posted Sun, 17 July 2005 at 2:13 PM

JohnRickardJR has some lip masks for Jessi in the FreeStuff, see attached link. Wow, thanks! (Jim Burton added a lip material to Glamourous Jessi). One more reason to transfer this face to GJ (said the mad cosmetic surgeon).

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


odf ( ) posted Tue, 19 July 2005 at 9:56 PM

file_271100.jpg

Okay, I've changed a couple of things again. Eyeball and teeth diffuse colors changed as suggested by face_off. Inverse of Jessi's default teeth texture used as bump map. Glossy node used as alternate specular on teeth (still not too happy with anisotropic). Direction of main light changed slightly. Back light from the right rather than main light used for the realism kit blushing effect.

This is again a piece of the unpostworked render. The full image with some mild postwork can be seen in my gallery. I've decided to give the subject a rest because and some point it gets boring to keep fiddling with tiny details in the same old image. But that doesn't mean that I'm not open for further suggestions and experiments. Only that I'm now quite happy with the teeth and will reserve further insights for use in other work.

Thanks for all the input so far.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.


face_off ( ) posted Wed, 20 July 2005 at 4:21 AM

No only does it get boring Olaf, I think after a while working on the same thing, you start to loose your eye for realism. Always a good idea to leave it for a while and come back to it later.

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