The Hot 20 — To *V* or Not To Be

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The Hot 20 — To *V* or Not To Be
The Constant Hot Topic
It’s been brought up, dragged through the mud, burned, and beaten time and time again...that darned old Hot 20. It has been a hot topic on many occasions, and in many forums. But, is it important? Is it what many strive for? Is the Hot 20 worth striving for? Most importantly, should it stay, should it change, or should it go?

The Deal
How does it work? Here’s the rundown. An image is posted to the gallery. Other members viewing it can either rate, comment, add the artist or image to favorites, or vote on it. Accepting ratings and comments are optional to the artist when uploading. Voting, however, is currently not an optional setting.

The Hot 20 is based on the number of votes an image received in the previous 7 days. But one member can generate only one vote on a particular image during this seven-day period. This means that a single member cannot vote on the same image again until 7 days has passed, but is free to vote on as many other images as they choose. Simple enough, right?

Theoretically, this system should work properly enough, but ...

To *V* or not to *V*?
That is the question, isn’t it? The answer, however, is murky. Why? Voting is anonymous, unless of course, one publicly states (*V*) it in comments under the image. Clicking the vote button takes no more time than checking the clock on one’s monitor. One can vote on as many images as they like. Why then, is the Hot 20 most often not a good representation of the gallery it belongs to?

It is true that some members with a large following will continually get votes. However, it is also true that other members with a large following will not. Then, of course, there are those that may never see the Hot 20, though their work may be just as deserving.

But maybe, just maybe, that ‘vote’ button is not used enough. Why is it so daunting to some? Is it that some feel the Hot 20 has gone on to be a popularity contest which is beyond repair? Is it that some want nothing to do with it? Encouraging members to vote, usually results in a negative response. I’ll be quite honest, as I myself no longer look at the Hot 20 because of it. But it is still important enough that the complaints continue.

Endnotes- Mine, Yours, and Ours
Can the Hot 20 work? Maybe, with a bit of change. Maybe, in the way in which the votes are received so as to eliminate one artist holding more than one spot at a time. That could be a step in the right direction. Maybe, with more participation. But, for now, it is time to get your opinions on the matter. That is you, the readers, the members and “voice”’ of the Renderosity Community — Our community. So, what say you? Should it stay, should it change, or should it go? Please consider honest, but helpful feedback.


Nick’s Notes
is a regular featured column
with Renderosity Staff Writer
Nick Sorbin [vclaszlo].

January 16, 2005
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Member Opinions:
By: Sabra on 1/16/06
I stand by my point I made on the forums that the vote button should be optional when uploading an image. Removing would mean giving in to one group of people and leaving out the other, but not making it optional also forces those who don't want votes or simply disagree with the Hot 20 to participate in it. I don't really see why it's so hard to make that button optional, cause I think that would satisfy most people.

By: Kristta on 1/16/06
The Hot 20 is nothing but a popularity contest. People with the most online friends make the top 20. Rarely do I see some of the more excellent works of art in the top 20. I think it should be an optional button or gone all together.

By: Moebius87 on 1/16/06
I agree... it would be nice if artists were given the freedom of choice in the matter. Why not simply run a poll with the basic question — "if voting became optional, would you disable voting for your images? (yes / no / clueless about the HOT20)".

Great article. Thanks, Nick. :o) — Möe

By: deemarie on 1/16/06
Hey Moe,
Great idea :]
You asked for a poll ... you got it :]

Dee-Marie

By: Kid_Fisto on 1/16/06
I'd just like to say that the hot 20 is rather subjective. i don't want to see the 20 go, because it does show some very good images. on the other hand, could we possibly have something that says that an artist can have no more than one piece on the 20 at a time? i've seen several times in the fractal gallery where one guy (his name escapes me) had five images! i think that that would allow the other artists to shine at least a little. conversely, maybe it'd be cool to have something that shows all the images that got over a certain amount of votes, like 10 votes (which is a lot, really)

By: rockets on 1/16/06
I used to be concerned with the Hot 20, but after someone "in the know" informed me that there are people here who have numerous alias' and tend to vote for themselves with these alias', I've stopped being concerned and stopped looking at the "20" altogether. Personally I'd like to see it done away with all together, but this poll is a good first step in the right direction.

By: Alihahd on 1/16/06
Yes, the optional button would be fine. If it not
become optional it´s ( for me ) fine too, because
I don´t care about the H20. Im my Opinion, there
is no chance making the H20 to proper work.

Ali

By: dialyn on 1/16/06
Definitely should be optional. The Hot 20 in some galleries is only an indicator of artist or topic popularity, and not necessarily an indication of skill or creativity. Everyone should have a choice whether or not to participate. Personally I ignore it, but I realize some people find it fun and I wouldn't deny them that pleasure.

By: geoegress on 1/16/06
Disable or enable- who cares- it still won't work- it'll still be the same as now.
Not even a popularity contest- but a political one- school kids or club members or church groups will continue to dominate.
What is needed is an automatic script to calculate the 'ratio of viewings to comments'.
Posting that will show the best (within a 7 days period) that this site can offer.
It's fair, universal and unbias.

By: nigol on 1/16/06
I have never seen this Hot 20. Where the heck is it?

By: Valentina on 1/16/06
For example, I don't allow comments on my images...and I would also like a button that can say I DON'T allow votes on my images. I will use it for sure.

I saw many mean discutions in forums...where people were acting really childish and throw each other mean words because of jealousy of who gets or not in hot 20... it was so ridiculous...

So, personally...I want a "Don't vote for my image" button...please.

Vali

By: William_the_Bloody on 1/16/06
Daily top 20 based on viewings/comments
Weekly top 100 based on Veiwings/Comments
Monthly top 30 based on Votes

I don't care about popularity or whatever but it's
nice to have a digest of RO's finest. If he had a daily tally I would definately keep up on the Gallery. As it is now, I can hardly stand browsing it unless I'm looking at someone who just popped up on my Radar for some other reason.

By: justinwilliams on 1/16/06
This question is not about the Hot 20 or who is in it. If you are concerned about it, you should ask yourself why you create your art? For what reasons. Is it to satisfy a creative need or to gain praise from others making up for a lack of self esteem? Create art because you love to, it's the only way you will gain satisfaction. Personally I prefer to browse the galleries, and every now and again I will see one really worth comment. There have been many occasion on viewing the Hot 20 where there will be a superior image on it's gallery page but it has received votes because people come straight in from an email notice for a favourite artist etc, they have not viewed the alternatives. Perhaps voting could be enabled only if the referring page was the Gallery page? Not from direct email links?

By: vt100 on 1/16/06
Yeah as mentioned above i was always concerned about getting hardly any votes but in the end it really doesn't bother me if it stays or goes so i'd say given the choice i'd vote for the optional choice

By: ppetersen on 1/16/06
I like the hot 20 and have occasionally made it, but I do see where a change in it is indeed needed. I like the idea of a generator that would calculate the ratio of viewings to the comments. I see some who have say 25 or 30 comments but a 125 viewings, and then others with 18 comments and say 55 viewings and they are wonderfully creative and yet are not in the top 20.

Many who create in the various programs are not allowed to shine so to speak as that particular option is not fair.. IMHO... I would like to see an overhaul of it to allow for more artists and varied ones to make the hot 20.

:)

By: AndyWelder on 1/16/06
The H20 as it is should go for sure IMO, it's degraded into a popularity contest and , indeed as geoegress wrote, an political instrument. It's only function at this stage is stirring up the forums from time to time;-)
If the H20 has to be an indicator of skill/craftsmanship the whole thing should be rehauled by some clever scripters...And the parameters to be incorporated....? No clue.

By: max- on 1/16/06
Hot 20 may not be perfect, but it's kind of neat. Perhaps it can be modified a bit, but changes may make it even worse, so be careful. It's nice to be able to quickly see the best images of the week, without having to crawl through hundreds of bad ones, especially if you have a slow connection or not much time.

By: IgnisSerpentus on 1/16/06
Well, Ill chime in coz Ive always disliked the hot 20. It causes more problems than does good. Personally, I never pay attention to it and didnt even know it existed til about 8 mos ago. And while I wont say everyone that makes it there isnt worthy (coz there are very worthy images that do) I will agree that it does seem elitist and unfair at times. So I think it should be optional or done away with alltogether. I lean more towards the latter though, coz I dont think optional would really change the contempt that it breeds.

By: 0m3g4 on 1/16/06
I've honestly never really noticed the button there, let alone gone and clicked on it.

By: jjean21 on 1/16/06
I enjoy browsing the 'Hot 20' as it has lead me to galleries I might not have found otherwise. I do however think it needs to be overhauled to allow for a wider variety of the talenteed artists here to be featured. As for the voting aspect, no one should be able to vote for a given image more than once regardless of the time frame...sounds a little like stuffing a ballot box; and while many artists create work after work that is equally good, one image at a time in the Hot 20 should suffice.

By: toshibasan on 1/16/06
I attempt to ignore the so called "Hot 20" on any given occasion. It's always struck me a suspect when the same individuals keep having images there. There are thousands of posters here at Renderosity, some with amazing talent and versatility. Yet the same artists keep getting praise heaped upon them for posting the same schlock tripe every week. My advise is to do away with the section altogether or perhaps create a section for doe eyed buxom women with too much soft focus and no imagination. My 2 cents. Toshi.

By: h2odog on 1/16/06
One of the things about Renderosity is that it is so popular, and so many people of all skill levels post here, it can be hard find the really exceptional images. While the Hot 20 isn't perfect, it gives someone like me who doesn't have a lot of time to sift through all the images something to use as a filter. Granted, it's not perfect. It's easy to see who's in the Hot 20 because of merit and who's there because they have lots of friends. They really aren't fooling anyone. So, while I do occasionally look at the Hot 20, I don't remember ever using the vote button. I guess I don't care either way, keep it or don't.

By: Giana on 1/16/06
the whole Top20 thing is so easy to simply ignore - been doing it for years myself - and i honestly do not think it is a true indicator of anything artistically speak. i do see how it could probably be used as Marketing tool though [shrug]. just give me a button and i'll be happy... if the 20 thing bothers people so much though but for whatever reason the majority also wishes to have something akin to it, maybe there can be some sort of alternative way of doing it, or taking it out of the community's hands to some extent... have a daily moderator's pick that goes into a queue and then a community vote at the end of the week - then display the chose image for a week, or something along those lines [?shrug?]... oh, and just in case anyone missed it: give me a button and i'll be happy :D

thanks for opening a community discussion on it...

By: DigiArts on 1/16/06
The Hot 20 as presently constituted is merely a popularity contest..and almost a joke. I think general "voting" should be done away with, and- if Renderosity continues to feature a Hot 20 gallery, it should include images that a panel of judges decide upon. Furthermoe, IMO, the choices should be based upon artistic and technical merit only- not on the popularity of the person/artist..or how many comments a select image receives or ratings..or even upon the number of views it receives. The panel of judges could be comprised of 3 or 4 impartial artists whose work is already reknowned; like former AOM's or AOY's..or, perhaps even moderators. But to have the general community vote has yielded disappointment and some pretty laughable results- again and again, in my opinion. It's like being in high school all over again..and, if you're not in the most popular "clique" you're out of luck, no matter your talent and worthy contributions.

By: Sivana on 1/16/06
From my point of view, the Hot 20 isn´t really an urgent thing. Sometimes I have a look on it to see that here I always find the same persons.
For myself,I also have just given votes. But I often do if I find a real masterpiece of arkwork here - but I never have seen such a fantastic artwork within the Hot 20.

Personally I think, why not the Hot 20 if some persons have fun to vote and to be in the Hitlist.
It´s a game not more or less.A game most among some friends that doesn´t hurts someone really.
Take it easy ;-)

By: islandgirdesigns on 1/16/06
I've stopped looking at the "Hot 20" just like I've stopped entering the contests here. As grateful as I am for the chance to display some of my images here, The contests and the "Hot 20" are popularity contests that don't give us the chance to see other talent here. I'd rather sit and take a stroll through the gallery for hours and see who's developing their talent then go through the "20" and roll my eyes thinking "Oh, them again". Personally I'd like to see a weekly H20 of new artists put up by a set panel of open minded people wanting to showcase the talents of different artists.

By: bclaytonphoto on 1/16/06
Ah yes..the timeless debate on the Hot 20..

In some areas of the site..it's a big deal, others don't bother with it much.
Making it an option like comments and ratings should be an easy fix. (BTW, I really don't like ratings either).

To make a HOT20 actually work, I think a three fold system would be best. One third comming from votes, one third from number of views and one third from number of comments. Limiting an artist to one image in the Hot 20 per week would also be a step in the right direction.

That might help.

On the other hand, does the Hot 20 add to the community as a whole, or does it just create problems ?

Here's my final thought on the issue, I think we can all agree that the current system doesn't work. It's nothing more than a popularity contest in some area's of this site. I see two solutions. Fix it or dump it. Personally, I'd just dump it. It's not worth the animosity it creates among members, nor is it worth the time and effort the staff has to work to put out all the fires that, are a result of it.

By: Shardz on 1/16/06
I agree with jjean21 in the fact that within the 7 day time period, if one artist has an image in the Hot20, no other images of the same artist should be allowed unti the 7 days has lapsed.
One image per artist per week, and I've been stating that idea for quite awhile now. This would at least open up more slots for those who don't normally make it there and allow a bit more diversity. Allowing the option to post without a vote button will not fix the popularity problem, but make it even worse. Those who thrive on it for various reasons will not use the 'no vote' option and will only eliminate those who are very conscious of the ideal in question.

Secondly, I'd rather see it done away with completely as it serves no real function of value that I can see; entertainment purposes being rather questionable, as well. The Top 100 is riddled with the same problems, and even though I identify that as a global gallery of some of the best work on the site, it still suffers from the same popularity issues that completely elude me. It often becomes a beacon of futile competition that frustrates more than serves it's initial purpose.

By: IO4 on 1/16/06
It's ashame that some people abuse the voting system, eg just vote for their 'friends', or more than once. If there was a way to make the system fairer or more representative that would be great, but how could this work? A tough one I guess. I think alot of people don't know about the Hot 20 as well. I didn't until recently. I use it sometimes as another sort of gallery - I've sometimes seen pictures that I have missed in the gallery sections, so from that point of view I think it's good. I think a good first step would be to not allow anyone to vote for an image more than once.

By: DMFW on 1/16/06
I've never made the Hot 20 and probably never will but I'm not going to get all bitter and twisted about it... Some good stuff turns up in there and it has drawn my attention to interesting new artists on several occasions so I wouldn't like to dispense with it, even with the problems other folks have pointed out. At the same time it's not the "be all and end all" of Renderosity and although I often look at the Hot 20, I browse the main galleries too as I know there are often gems hidden away there.

I agree with jjean21 that no image should get a double vote from anyone across *any* time frame and maybe one image per artist is a good idea but other than that I think I'd leave it alone with all its imperfections.

If you really don't pay attention to it, then no one is forced to look at it :-)

By: R_Vargus on 1/16/06
I have to agree no one should be able to vote more than once. However, since anyone can create more than one id here multi votes do happen and that makes the hot 20 meaningless. I have seen groups of friends banning together to vote there images into the hot 20 as well when obviously the artwork was not at all worthy. This seems to happen in the Vue gallery a lot. The same 8 or 10 people voting for their friends. I would say get rid of it all together or only allow on id per customer.

By: Prufrock81 on 1/16/06
I find ANY sort of community based voting to be skewwed. OF COURSE groups and cliques of friends/aquaitences are going to encourage each other....I know for a fact that some people ONLY view and comments/rank thier friend's images (as long as friends are viewing thiers)

ANY voting on images for ANY reason should be conducted by the renderosity staff or by members they select on the basis of thier UNBAISED contributions of the past.

Renderosity seems to have a level of professionalism that keeps me here and active....but when it comes to community based voting...I find it sorely lacking any substantial level of professional considerations.

All you have to do to illustrate my point is read alot of the comments on substandard work - comments that should be geared to HELPING thier friends and fellow artists IMPROVE thier skills. What I see mostly are patronizing "great work" or "excellent work" when it is so obviously NOT.
(and please dont say its subjective - PUHleeeze I'm refering to artwork in OBVIOUS need of honest critique.

So if we can't be honest with out fellow artists in order to actually HELP them....how can we be expected to honour those who truely deserve it?

Answer: we can't

By: Justmel on 1/16/06
I think it should really go, personally I never look at the "Hot 20". And I rarely ever vote, somehow in my mind that demeans the whole aspect and purpose of these galleries. It just seems to turn everything into a contest, not art galleries.

By: GRiMAge on 1/16/06
Well, making a long story short, i'd *really* like to see that vote button become optional! As i stated occasionally on some forums discussion (it's sad that so much fair discussions about this topic eventually get lost and deleted as they *always* end up in flamefests... :( ) and on my images, my view is simple - if i want to participate in a contest, i'd largely prefer to do that of *my* own will, and not being forced to it just because i'm posting something on the main gallery... so i think the vote button should definitely be made optional - i think it would satisfy everyone - and remember, if you *really* want to promote an artist, just go off and point people to his/her gallery! I've done that too sometimes...

Thanks for this article! It was quite time to sort this out - let's hope it end up in some changes - whatever they might be! :)

Cheers, Grim

By: Deagol on 1/16/06
Nick, you don't mind jumping right into the muck, do you? ;-)

I've done a 180 on the hot 20. While it doesn't mean all that much to me, it's still cool. I still visit it. My 180 came about when I finally figured out that this place is as much about the social aspects as it is about art. So what is some of my least favorite artists have a lot of friends. Good for them. That's what this place it for, at least partially. My favorite artists have a lot of friends too, so it all washes out.

It's bad though when a new person doesn't understand how the popularity game works and they build a great image that doesn't get the attention that it deserves. That's why I have a short list of favorite artists. I try to judge images on their own merits, not by who created them.

I think 1 image per person at a time is the best answer

By: Artemis on 1/16/06
I'll put my two bobs in ....

i look at the top 20 about twice a week out of curiousity and see some images voted on there that override the artists that have a lot of work and time put into them and dont get votes...

I only allow comments on my images because from there i visit other members galleries and comment on theirs as well. Its a popularity contest for some.

So my point is - Allow the Vote button to be disabled...thanks

AS :-)

By: Slav on 1/16/06
As it was said already, the Hot 20 is just a popularity contest. It`ll be the same if you make the button optional or not.
So there`s no really much point in it`s existance (or at least the "naming"). But since I haven`t checked it for a few years now, it doesn`t really matter.

By: Giana on 1/16/06
erm, wanted to be a bit more clear after reading my prior post:

**give me a button/box to check to disable voting**

i can only speak for myself, but i do not think i'm the only person to have the following perspective [maybe i am... shrug]:

i think to have voting and rankings leads to a certain kind of sterility in the galleries. i'm guessing most people want to feel as if they are a part of this site, that they fit in and are seen/validated as being members here. voting in and of itself automatically sets up a competitive type of environment and people can maybe be easily sucked into it, or at least at first. a person compares themselves to others, looks at the image lying next to their and notes the number of comments, the number of views, or whatever...

sterility starts when after comparing their work that has basically gone ignored to the one next to theirs that has x-number of comments, blahblah and then the person starts to rethinks things... the person may then start to emulate those around him/her after a fashion for a variety of reasons, and everything becomes more formulised than unique & individual - thus, in my opine, we are left with a bunch of images from a variety of artists that all essentially look the same & that could be interchangeable almost.

being the illogical idealist i tend to be, i'd love to see voting, rankings and even user names on the front-end disappear altogether... but i'll take what i can get...

like a disable voting radio button... :))

By: shadow_dancer on 1/16/06
hot 20 is bs and i would definatly disable voting im about doing art not winning a popularity contest i am more happy when someone adds me to their fav artist or fav image list then he lil "v" bs

By: Prufrock81 on 1/16/06
Didnt make this point before. Disabling the Vote button? What does that do? It makes it look like the "clique kids" are the best artist we have here? Is that what we want???

I say DO AWAY WITH THE VOTE BUTTON ALTOGETHER.

THanks and Goodnight

By: anniemation on 1/16/06
What a daring article! I agree about having one image at a time in the Hot 20. At the same time, couldn't there be more emphasis placed on the
list of admin/coordinator chosen images? I think the Poser community had the "backroom" for this - (currently the link for the backroom is not
working here.)
http://backroom.renderosity.com/~pzr/backroom/index.htm

Overall I would like to see more variety when viewing what is considered "the best".

By: babasara on 1/16/06
Hot 20 should go. It does not reflect the galleries best and therefore defeats its intentional purpose.

By: Vanessa_V on 1/17/06
I am not an artist at Renderosity but I like viewing the works of those that are. I think you should delete the vote button and the Hot20. My thoughts go directly to the poser gallery because I have seen so many people trying to immitate the art of famous artist such as F. Frazetta, B. Vellego, L.Royo, Julie Bell and many well known artist, with LITTLE success in my opinion, and proceed to call it their own idea. That's just WRONG imo, but here's the kicker.....

Do you really think these Top Artist, would be impressed with this piddley vote button or the HOT20? I suggest they would think it kid stuff and laugh their arse off! Do everyone on this site a favor and get rid of it. Relieve yourself of the problems that the vote button brings to your popular site.

It breeds squabbles, cliques, jealousy, and most of all cheaters. Get rid of the temptation that leads to cheating every person that uploads their work here with that unnecessary vote button. Whether it be a new person, or the oldest member registered, the RESPECT that each artist deserves is being deminished by the likes of one tiny vote button. It allows many works of art to go unnoticed and hidden because of things like the ebots which contribute to the problem itself. It is so easy to avoid the galleries when the ebots lead directly to a friends gallery and gives them a direct link to the vote button of that one friend.

I suggest the removal of the vote button, stop the problem in its tracks.

Thank you for the opportunity to state my opinion.
Vanessa V.

By: DELMUR on 1/17/06
Just one year ago, when i just began to post on RR ,i looked at the hot and i saw ALWAYS the same! LOGILOGLU specially....I love his work , and for me it was an exemple and a master to follow!And my secret dream, was to be in the Hot 20!So i worked my posts, and my "photo" in general.Now , i am in the hot......OUFFF!(lol)My EGO is satisfied .And after???EUUHH! Nothing.The Hot has been a good help to increase the quality of my photos, and to keep a quality ,I can tell you,it's not easy to post EVERY day,a post,( a kind of yoga) ,which seems to me a "good " photo;I think the Hot is a cherry on the cake.......NOT IMPORTANT!!! Because you produce a RR style pic!( To do simple,THE RR STYLE is , an animal , a landscape, a sunset, a flower, but if you do disturbing pics, you are banned,and good bye the HOT )You must have open eyes ,all the time, Hot or not Hot.After,when you are known,(Madonna ,or toto), even if you do a shit, you are in the Hot!!BUT, i am angry, because i see artists, as spenc or ges or some,a lot of indeed... Almost nobody looks at their pics,and a lot of great artists are not in the Hot! To resume,the first thing to do , is to be curious,AND OPEN ALL the pics.After you leave a comment, you vote, you pray, you send flowers, you marry.....AND MORE!JP

By: LillianaSapphire on 1/17/06
Afew of the artists on this site are about popularity contests. Half the art in the hot 20 isn't worthy in my opinion. There's plenty of art around this site that doesn't get recognised because people want to suck up to their friends. Art should be about doing it for yourself, not to please and get praise from 'friends'

By: NightHawkRN on 1/17/06
I think we should just "can" the hot 20 all together since it seems like its the same ones over and over that get there. If you have to have a top 20 allow the mods in each disiciple ( 2d, bryce, poser, etc) pick 2 images to be showcased in a Rederosity Top 20. Take the voting completely out of it and let the "expert" in that area of cgi choose.

By: undisclosed-designer on 1/17/06
lol Keith, a 180? Is that your heartbeat in a minute?

The FUN20 is for me not to be taken seriously, and it's good that one can chose whether to have themselves voted in there or not. For me i don't really care, not that i am not in it very often, but more that i don't really have to, like some of the amateurs are. For them it is an acknowledgement of being appreciated in their work or hobby.

Good luck and have a good day

Harmen

By: EoinArmstrong on 1/17/06
I would remove it most definitely

By: Gwynhale on 1/17/06
This is a question with a number of facets.

I often use the Hot 20 to have a quick overview of the "best" images when I do not have time to browse. One can find out quite quickly in which galleries it works and where it does not worth the time.

It would be great to have a better, automatically calculated "Hot 20", maybe based on the proposed comments/views ratio, of course above let's say at least 20 views, otherwise 1/1 is always 100% :) Also it would be great having the Most Viewed/Commented/Rated for the last rolling week (per gallery), because the all-times best galleries do not say anything anymore, the most viewed will remain most viewed forever.

I also like the idea of a "Cream" section created by "votes" of moderators/past AOMs/a select panel of responsible and respected members. It works quite well on other sites.

Renderosity is also about getting comments/votes on our work. For some it can be a real stimulator. Let's keep the popularity votes based Hot 20 for them.

By: ramhernan on 1/17/06
in my humble opinion, the ratio (views vs votes) formula is a very good way to make the hot20 more creditable, among the final stage thing where all us can cast just a vote an image from a certain number of "finalists".
I think that this two stages approach would be a real improvement into the mechanism and a way to know the best works of the week or month or whatever.
Cheers
Ramón

By: DivineRAiN on 1/17/06
A disable vote button?-- ok, what exactly is that going to do? The ones who are playing their games to gain popularity/votes are the ones who aren't going to disable votes, so as far as I can tell the problem is still going to exist anyway.
And I can imagine that the only people who would use it are the artists who are serious about what they do, and they're good at it. They are the ones who inspire others with their art.

What about getting rid of the ebot e-mails letting ppl know their fav artist posted an image in the gallery, click the link to view... that would be a start.


By: Niutek on 1/17/06
Hot 20 is called 'hot' 20, not 'best 20' for a reason, imho. The name itself suggests it's a popularity contest. That's why it would be reasonable to give the artists a chance to choose if they want their work to be a part of it, or not. That's for logic's sake. And for the sake of keeping the atmosphere around here mopre healthy - I think it would be good to make a 'one spot by the same artist at a time' rule for those who do want to participate in the Hot 20 'fun'.

By: Zemela on 1/17/06
Let me also give my two pence on the subject - honestly, I'm really disquised of all the buddy voting and superlatives about the next produced piece of infinite art. That's the reason I carefuly do not touch Top 20 or voting button anymore. I know even if I vote for an image with real artistic value I cannot beat the buddies.
IMHO - Ok, let there be a Hot 20, but based on viewing only. You all guys know that the commenting thing is also used unproper. I think if based on views would be most fair and will bring really high quality images to view.

BTW, it's a good idea to give the e-bot rest. Or at least make it optional. It's really annoying.
Greetz, Lisa

By: psion005 on 1/17/06
Time to get rid of the Hot 20.... i believe in our Fractal Gallery that the "fractal weekly window" represents the best cross section of artistic talent out there ...PEACE

By: Buzzzzz on 1/17/06
How Important is the Hot20?
As Renderosity says: It's for Entertainment only.
Besides, does it pay me $$$$$ for my efforts? I haven't received my check yet!
Do I sleep with it? No, It Snores and Irritates me.
Did I bring it into this world? Hell No!
Is it going to change my life if they do away with it? Probably Not.

BANISH THE SCROUNDREL! :o)

By: TANZA on 1/17/06
I think it should be done away with alltogether it causes more arguments on this site than anything else and its pretty pointless. I sell work by nearly 20 artists here at RR and let me tell you having every image you do in the hot 20 means absolutely nothing to the man in the street they either like your work or they don't.

By: JamesRoden on 1/17/06
Get rid of the Hot 20...It serves no useful, meaningful purpose and simply serves as a popularity contest, or in some cases masturbation fodder.

Why doesn't the mods go through the depths of the Renderosity archives and pull twenty or so out a week and feature their best work? It would be a lot more useful and entertaining to the community as a whole.

But as for the "Hot 20"? For god's sake let it die!!!

By: Rids on 1/17/06
The current H20 is something of a joke, though its a joke that turns nasty all too often. All it is now is a popularity contest and as such should be removed.

Creating a system where the position is automatically calculated using some mix of views to comments is better but also inherently flawed due to the use of the favorite artist lists and the e-mails that get sent out when someone on that list posts an image. The favorite artist list is also based on popularity / number of friends, so anything based on views or comments is also going to be extremely biased. You only have to look at the number of comments some people get compared with others of equal or better talent to appreciate that.

To me, the only fair way of creating a H20 would be to only allow a panel of judges to vote, so that the placing of an image would be based purely on the merits of that image and not personal friendships. Even this method would probably cause arguments however, as some people would complain that others were getting preferential treatment but I think the overall feeling towards it would be a lot better than it is now.

By: wabe on 1/17/06
What i still miss in all these discussions is a statement from the people who introduced the Hot20. What the intension originally was.

When i was new at Renderosity and not here every day, the Hot20 was a really good orientation for me to find artists i have missed so far. This was excellent, i found a lot of people there who are now wonderful friends.

I always understood the difference between "hot" and "best" and therefore had never any problems with entries there. Sometimes i found them boring or obviously driven by popularity, sometimes i even think people vote themselves in with different ids. So what! Important is/was the sort of random influence to my normal Renderosity galleries perception.

Now how about changing the Hot20 even more into that direction? Forget the voting, make the Hot20 a random selection of the maybe most commented, maybe highest ranked - whatever - images of the last days. This can change even every day, every two days or every week.

Then you have still this "random influence" but not all the jealousy that we have right now.

Just my two little cents.

By: Django on 1/17/06
Actually its a cool Tool, its just misused, but thats the case with all "tools" you can use a screwdriver to repair something , or to stab someone.Its up to us to make effective use of it.
Same goes for rating or comments.
THINK about what you do, thats all ,
Taking the tool away is no solution
Take care
Django

By: Vampi on 1/17/06
I can't believe how long I fussed and worried about why my work wasn't in the Hot 20 before realizing 'who cares?'. I love getting comments on my work, I really do. But do I need my pieces up in that hot 20 to know that what I do is okay? I don't think so :)

I'd definitely disable the vote button on my stuff if I was able to.

By: kales1 on 1/17/06
I dont overly care about the Hot 20 because it is a bit biased. But if you want to show MANY of the talented artist here, then you need to have a few Hot 20's

Most Viewed, Most commented, Most voted and all of them have to be UPDATED WEEKLY!!! Then you could showcase alot more talent here!

By: renapd on 1/17/06
Oh boy...so many memories brought back by this article! hehe!
Flaming posts, mocking posts, hillarious but creative images made to make a point about it! Lots and lots of fun! :)
Honestly..I never cared about it, never believed in it, never strained to get in, have visited only half a dozen times in the last 7 years just out of curiosity to make sure the same people with large devoted crowds are there! :)
It definately should be optional or gone as it represents absolutely NOTHING..
It would be fair only if members had to watch ALL images posted in a day and vote for just ONE - no more! But that's impossible we all know..it's just a toy they keep around for all those who love to brug of being there as if that makes them better artists! Why spoil their day with the poll and its results? You're naughty guys! LOL

By: Romantha on 1/17/06
Jumping into the fire...

The main problem is the Hot 20, in general, is seen as a popularity contest rather than a truly representative snapshot of the art being produced. Obviously, some people will be sensitive when it comes to the popularity side of the contest. Obviously, some great art will be overlooked.

The problems with the Hot 20 are not inherent to the Hot 20 itself, rather they are reflective of the community in general. I suggest the following two step proposal to eliminate as much of the popularity downside to the Hot 20, while still having a moderately decent tool for viewing what is, at least at the time, a snapshot of that gallery.

1) Remove number of views, remove rankings, and keep comments optional, but do not display the number of comments in the thumbnail view. We all know the rankings feature is just as broken as the Hot 20. This way, those artists that want feedback on an image can get some, and those that don't care can let it slide.

2) Limit any artist's appearance in the Hot 20 to 1 image per time period. Call it the Gallery Snapshot. Remove the order of ascendence, ie., it is just 20 images, not the 20 most voted from lowest to highest. Stop showing the number of votes. Display the thumbs in a 4x5 frame.

By: Tissaia on 1/17/06
Oh and another thing about 'pic of a day'. Judges should provide really short description why this or that particular pic was chosen (comment like 'great composition and pose' won't do ;) )

By: YARDOBE on 1/17/06
Well,I NEVER vote and lately I don't even like to leave comments because I won't just repeat"great" or "excellent"!...I post for one reason....Advice!!!...do I get any?...very rarely,so I'll feel like an ass if I try to give any...and don't get me started on my one trip to the chatroom....guess I didn't belong.....keep the 20,just appoint a revolving panel of reps from the genres!

By: girsempa on 1/17/06
I've only been here for a couple of days. Until now, I've noticed some *V*'s in comments on some images, but I didn't even know what they stood for. I can understand what the discussion is about now.
My opinion: How can you ever rule out the 'popularity' thing with the voting system? Isn't that the same with all 'Top **'s'? Some good and meaningful images DO make it to the top, others never do.
My suggestion: leave the Top 20 as it is (or for what it is), but make a complementary sort of 'Editor's Pick' with some images that do stand out, or images that demand attention for whatever reason the moderators see fit. And focus on those that don't make the Top. Now wouldn't that be nice?

By: dragonfly2000 on 1/17/06
I would love to disable the voting button as i now do for 'ratings' - neither provide useful feedback for me. I know people who've left here because they dispised the top 20 as a clique.
I don't feel that way, but then i never look in the listings. But please give us the opportunity to disable that 'vote' button. I'll vote for that.

By: Jordano on 1/17/06
It's time for change!
It is time some people to understand that the T20 has nothing to do with the artist's talent. No the constant contests in this community, no the endless comments or e-mails.
What is the reason?
The self ego! The battle with others is easier. The battle with yourself....?
That is the dilemma! T20 is nothing more than a projection of your own ego, my dear artists!!

By: xxxander on 1/17/06
I TOTALLY agree with Vampi...I don't even allow COMMENTS on my art anymore, because most of them were without any merit, (copy & paste comments)...I don't allow rankings either, why bother? If *I* like my art, then nothing else matters, I have FINALLY figured that out...say NO to popularity contests, cliques and the Hot20....

By: Sinamin on 1/17/06
Boy Nick...you are a brave soul. Okay, here's my two cents, which is probably an inflated value...

I left this community for several months because I allowed comments and the Hot20 to become far too important to me. I've grown up now and realize that all that is important is that my art pleases me and when I market it commercially, pleases my customers.

There's no doubt that the Hot20 is a popularity contest, that's nothing new. I'd love to have a button to disable votes on my imagery. I never enable the option for people to "grade" my work as Excellent, Good, etc., etc. I no longer need that kind of validation to be satisfied with my work. Should I ever start needing it again, it'll be time to leave here.

In the end, my art is about an external expression of something inside of me...good, bad or indifferent. If I show a friend an image I made (we are talking about a small group of 2-4 people), I do so because I am especially proud of it and not to garner votes or viewings. Frankly, I stopped looking at the Hot20 along time ago, knowing that generally it isn't an indication of the best work, it's an indication of who has more alias' and friends within the community. You have only to see the "quality" of some of the work that appears in the Hot 20 to validate the truth of that statement.

So, I hope it goes away and if not, that at least we are given the option to disable voting on our imagery.


By: SirJohn on 1/17/06
The '20' lost any appeal for me as soon as I realised that far more often than not it is simply a popularity contest. Still... I look from time to time simply because there are quite often some extremely interesting images to be found. It really does seem to be a case of 'the more you put into the community, the more you get out of it' when it comes to the top 20. I will not say anything to take away from the accomplishments of those who make the list (I stumble into the list from time to time myself for some reason), but sometimes it is hard to deny the popularity contest aspect of the list. Just my humble 2 cents;)

By: tralfaz on 1/17/06
I've been a member for a several years,I still don't know where the Hot20 results or images are shown. Sometimnes I press the vote button, not sure where it goes but I do it if I feel the image is worth special attention. When I did a search on the hot 20 some time ago all I found were endless fourm comments going both directions and causing much uneeded emotions. I know it has become a popularity contest just as the comments/views in the gallery has to some extent. If given a chose, make it an option. It's only art, it wont hurt you;)

By: TAXIFUNK on 1/17/06
(This looks better unpublished I think, or shortened, it´s more like a direct feedback and IM, cant even judge that well which is not the point)

Hey, GREAT article, topic and poll again. Congrats on it´s success, too. I think some of it is answered in your equally helpful article under http://www.renderosity.com/index.ez?viewStory=12076 which I thank Dee Marie for finding again when I asked Cindy Lively aka cynlee who could trace it for me. I had probably forgotten about the correct title. She said we could link to it from Skinbase where we just started a harmless poll inspired by these developments How do you like upload comments to ur gallery to be. And Dee Marie said I might be able to quote a passage if not changing context and crediting and linking back correctly, so I also wonder if that is OK with you for certain purposes. Please use my IM here, I can send you my internal addresses, too. I also feel an OPTION is a good thing and the whole systems should not be overestimated - like any system - but DOES make some people happy and generate traffic.

This is not meant to be a public spammy comment. We dont compare to renderosity. Its a friendly skinning site working on new trends. But I would not want to cooperate with ANY site, because some just have unfriendly messes, and your team and artists have given me valuable constructive inspirations. No skin without an image. Glad to see people exist who can afford to even help people in challenging situations... No matter what comes out of this, great thanks and more power to you! TAXIFUNK, real name Tobiel Sayre, SATYROBE or just Toby (new volunteer mod at http://www.skinbase.org) The URL and site name REALLY dont belong in public, this is a thank you and copyright question to be honest I feel

By: ialora on 1/17/06
I've never given the Hot 20 a second thought and have never used it. It was a needless addition. IMHO

By: jerr3d on 1/17/06
I try to look through the Poser Gallery everyday. Some days there are not so many new images. Some days there are alot of new images. Some days I dont have time to look at them all.

Hot 20 is a quick way to see some Excellent Poser artwork quickly.

So I think it would be an improvement if there were a better way to look at the newest images others considered to be Awesome over the last 7 days.

Like the most viewed over the last 7 days, or the most commented on over the last 7 days.

I'm sure there are more than 20 Awesome images posted here in 7 days time.

By: 4blueyes on 1/18/06
Down with the Hot20ies, views counters and vote buttons. They only break the community apart because noone is able to look through ALL the entries for a day and choose the best ones to vote for. There is simply too many of them. So in the best case the familiar names get your votes or your friends whom you know to make good images.

Popularity contests are not what art is about. Royo-Vallejo-style images that are plenty in Poser Hot20 (which are good in themselves btw) influence the general style of Poser galleries making it more boob-full and less idea-full. Pinups are good but they are not the only way to express yourself :) And inspiring artists are afraid to create anything else because they see that this kind of art will never get through and gain popularity.

By: Arvanor on 1/18/06
I don´t really care about the Top 20 because it is not important. I don´t get money for beeing there, my life isn´t anything better through it and i never will be in it. So who cares. Doing images with Poser and other software is just a little hobby that i enjoy for myself. At the beginning of beeing member here at Rosity i went through the galleries and commented many images and i got comments back but i do not have the time for doing this often anymore and so comments under my images swindled away. So i decided to turn comments and the rest off. You cannot go to the Louvre and write a comment under Mona Lisa! ;-)

Cheers Marko

By: Max2100 on 1/18/06
It is insignificant vote or not in the top 20. Many members have multiple free email addresses and a lot of nickname and login. I tested it a time and it worked. So, it is possible for a member to vote himself. So, we waste our time talking about the top 20.

By: bluliner35 on 1/18/06
The Hot 20 certainly doesn't showcase the best art or the best artist. There should be a gallery that does show renderosity's best art and artists. A good way to do that is close the voting to a trusted panel of judges. Forum moderators could nominate the best in their respective galleries, and then all moderators or a select few could jury the work.

A poularity contest is fine and valid in it's own right, but it does undermine objectivity in judging quality artwork.

The membership and enthusiasm for this website is large and being judged an exceptional artist among renderosity's best could be a significant accolage. But the egalitarian structure of the site renders such a commendation nearly impossible.

Still, the egalitarian nature of renderosity is a wonderful thing.

So, a compromise would appear to be in order. A separate gallery and process for more accomplished works seems to me a fair way to go about it.

A separately juried gallery would also validate more serious artists and perhaps draw more of them to the site. As it stands now, most of the serious artists here are a little disillusioned or, at best, apologistic.

By: melizod on 1/18/06
I think the images should be selected by a group of art critics at Renderosity, the group could rotate between staff and the members shouldn't even be disclosed. I don't care how expert the judges are as long as they vote honestly for the images they like without reguard for the artist. Also only one image per artist at a time. If an artist has two good ones, swap them out.

By: Jean-Luc_Ajrarn on 1/18/06
It would be fine with me to get rid of both the HOT 20 and the voting button. Thank you! :D

By: ZeroEffect on 1/18/06
Well I think that the hot 20 is a good thing, however I do feel that one image per atrist at any given time is the way it should go. There are many artists on renderosity that are very talented, yet never hit the hot 20. Why judge on the popular vote, when some people don't have the time to go out and butt kiss to become popular. I do feel that ONE IMAGE PER ARTIST AT ANY GIVEN TIME IS THE WAY TO GO. Thanks....

By: DarkStarRising on 1/18/06
I have always hated the H20, its the same people week in week out, doesnt give a chance for others, its un fair!
i have had this argument over and over again with several people, all saying the same thing, its nothing but "I have my fans, I have been in the H20 for years now, Im bigger then you" blah de blah, i have never liked it, and TBH i wish it would go, every image deserves a chance for someone to like it, not to have people who know you for vote on just one or two people, there are thousands of artists on here who all should deserve a chance, but nope!
TBH get rid of the Hot 20 on all geners.

By: gerberc on 1/18/06
I agree with those who say the H20 is about popularity and not about quality. Sometimes popularity and quality match, sometimes they do not. What I don't understand is why this should be a reason to get upset. After all it's easy enough to ignore the H20 ...

An idea I would really appreciate though is to have a panel of judges who select images for their quality. However one has to be aware that this would mean a *lot* of work for the judges and I'm not sure if such a thing is at all possible with a gallery as big as Renderosity.
Therefore, making voting optional seems to be the best compromise to me.

By: Fuzzball on 1/18/06
Hi Nick!

So glad you brought this up, and I do agree with your opinion.


I think that there are a ton of excellent fractal artists here that deserve to be in the Hot 20 list, but rarely have I seen yet of a variety of new names in this list. I do think we need some kind of change to give others a fair chance. But to accomplish this…I don’t have a clue as to what will work best?!?!?!


I myself, wish that I could view, comment, and vote more than I do on others art ~ but I am rarely home. When I am home though, I do make a point of viewing as many artists work as I can. I like to be as honest as I can on others art, and treat them fairly ~ I think that is the best way, always!!! =)


I hope that we can keep the Hot 20 list going, with a much better system. Hope to hear positive results when I get back…on the road again…


Smiles to all,
DJ

By: GRiMAge on 1/18/06
I just wanted to toss in my 2c more about some of the suggested changes:

- One image per artist each week: this sounds fair, but still i don't see it helping the unknown (good) artists getting there, it would likely only help the popular-but-not-so-much ones...

- image view: well... what i can tell from my own images is - the more flesh shown in the thumbnail, the more views i get... - while tastes are tastes (and it is a *very* good thing!), i don't think it would help getting more quality artists in the H20... not to mention that "cheating" would be even easier, since if i remember well, the view count isn't "unique" - i.e. if the same person looks at an image 30 times, it get 30 views more... anyone with raw programming knowledge could write a script that log in with a cloned account and hit the image 10000 times or so

- view/comment rate: this one sounds fair at first, but if you think more about it, it turn out to be the most illogical of them all... there are a lot of people who looks at the galleries but don't leave comments, so an artist whose work is only viewed by 10 or so friends, each of which leaves a comment, would be constantly in the H20, while a really good one, that get >1000 views from "observers" and 20-30 comments or so would never make it... not to mention the entries would be "floating" wildly, since an image in the H20 is likely to get lots of hits from people which will not comment on it, thus lowering his views/comments ratio and kicking it out of the H20...

- external judging; this one sound the best adjustment of them all, as long as the judges can manage to be impartial, it would truly help bring out the good talents, but the problem about finding peoples available to do the job could as well be a crippling obstacle...

Anyway, said that, even if the H20 could be "fixed", i would *still* see an option to turn the button off, for the reason exposed above... ;)

One (1) apology for the lenghty ramble... :O

Grim

By: solrac_gi_2nd on 1/19/06

When I started posting in RR I used to allow viewers (those who comment or not) to vote my posts.

Soon I discovered it had no meaning in my opinion.

I just allow comments and ... I do not vote.

When I like some photo I add it to my favourite images list ... that's all.

For me it is enough to have the feedback expressed in comments (some comments helps me improving).

There is also the issue of the ‘Last week in the galleries’.
I prefer this way of showing every member what was judged to be the best during a week.

The poll statistics is in favour of the 'yes' to V so I do not expect any changes.

It is interesting to have as many opinions as possible on this matter.

RR 'lives' with its members and opinions (not without them)


Carlos.

By: PeeWee05 on 1/19/06
I think if the hot 20 was so that it could only include one image per artist per period then that would be the best option or else it must be done away with.

It is clearly a popularity contest and votes can be solicited - you vote for me and I vote for you "type", except one person doesn't hold up their end of the deal.
This was clear to me in one period where and image that wasn't near the quality of others was in the hot 20 - if that isn't popularity or soliciting then I don't know what is!

By: Fractelaar on 1/19/06
Have seen the most wonderful great images
with only about 20 vieuws and 3 comments
It simply a popularity poll for a small group of most the same name,s

As you have not time enough to surf around and give a lot of nice comments or that vote thing
you have not much change to come inside

The Hot 20 most be a real honest showplace for visitors that take a look there special for guest ,s that have never seen before a fractal
But bad enough its a friendly gallery
The system is not good as a picture has stand there a week you see it many times again the next week
That is a place where you can better see a newone !!

I have always said create a system from only the highest rate and then so as Keith already mentiond
1 image per creator

That ,s my opinion about this item for what it is worth
Cheers Arend

By: squeeka on 1/19/06
Please do disable the voting button! Sometimes it's sad to see the strife and grief the Hot 20 causes in various galleries here. Many, many talented artists do not make the Hot 20 and it's a shame as it would be a perfect place to showcase their work that otherwise goes unseen by more than a few.
While allowing an artist to only have one image in there at a time would be helpful, I'd rather see the voting button disabled. That way artists could make the choice themselves. I know I've already disabled rankings on my images and I'd love to be able to disable the voting too. I do believe it's been suggested more than once in various threads in quite a few of the forums.
What's the saddest thing is this is a community and while all communities have their problems, this is one problem that can be avoided in so many ways.

And yes, you can ignore the Hot 20 but tbh, sometimes it's an easy way to see what others consider the best work in any given medium and at times will get you to some wonderful work by wonderful artists that you otherwise might miss.

By: classyladytwo on 1/19/06
I also say disable it, it does nothing to prove a good artist is good, if people need to be in the hot 20 then something is wrong. I say disable it all together why have it? Most that do get there do not deserve to be there and like you said some deserve to be and never are, and yes this has been a hot topic for along time so get rid of it all together. Those that are good artist don't need to be told or reassured by the Hot 20. Even ratings can go, who really needs them, your either good and don't need any ratings or voting to post for fun , if anyone does then thats their problem. Its been a bad apple for a long time and does nothing but creating hard feelings between artists, not what the Hot 20 was originally meant to do. Its been abused for way to long. As you said with this *V* thing. geesh. Nick get rid of it

By: SeanMartin on 1/19/06
Want to fix it?

Easy: if you make it into the Hot 20, you cannot come back to it for a year.

That seems somewhat draconian, sure, but considering *all* the artists we have here, the repetition of the same names in the Hot 20 just underscores its popularity contest aspect. Limit one gallery showing in there per year, and that opens it up to a lot more people just as deserving as those with cliques.

By: TwoPynts on 1/19/06
I'm glad this topic is finally getting major public attention. I've said much about it in the past but will try to keep it to the point now.

I think it is good to have a way to showcase work that should be examples of what to strive for in the galleries. But the system is broken. If we are going to keep this feature, then it needs to be fixed. There have been countless suggestions about how, so I just leave it to the admin to finally do it.

Thank you.

By: Rykk on 1/19/06
I think the H20 needs to stay but with improved functions. I suspect the many votes for eliminating the H20 are from the majority of artists who either haven't gotten on the list or have an axe to grind because their stuff is really good and doesn't get there. The outcome of such a vote could never be in doubt and having the question asked as it is has really no chance of going the way of keeping the H20. Every artshow, festival and gallery showing has judging of Best in Show, first, secon, third place, etc. It's just the nature of the beast and even tradition. Shoot, even DaVinci and VanGogh entered art showings and sold their paintings. It - when it is done in an honest and thoughtful way - gives artists something to strive for. Eliminating as much of the personal popularity/charisma elements focuses the attention where it should be. To paraphase Bill Clinton - "It's the art, stupid" - lol. This could also have the effect of allowing the artist to spend more of their time honing their skills rather than making the comment "rounds" for hours a day.

Limiting how many pieces an individual could have at one time on the list to "make room for artists who normally wouldn't make the list" seems naive and too "slacker" to me. It's like saying, "it's 'unfair' that the Houston Texans never make the playoffs, so let's just expand the playoff field so EVERY team can make it". Shoot, why would they even show up for practice in such a dumbed down system? Fact is some artworks appeal to a lot of people and some appeal to only a few people. Some people practice hard and some are just playing around for fun. And the fact is, in their current version, the Houston Texans suck and don't deserve to be in the playoffs! That's not to say that, with a lot of hard work(and Reggie Bush/Vince Young - lol), they will never make the playoffs and be great ONE day...just not TO-day.

By: Rykk on 1/19/06
I think being able to disable voting on one's OWN images just doesn't make any sense to me at all. What's the point? It "fixes" nothing. From what I gather, the problem is artworks that folks think are "deserving" NOT making it to the lists. Duh! That's what all the complaining is about. That and a suspicion of "vote swapping"(cheating) brought on by the "V". I've seen lots who disable rankings but they sure do go around doing the "V" thing a lot.

I think the H20 can be a good thing if there were changes put in place to enhance or protect the INTEGRITY of the voting. Yeah, I know - I make the list a lot myself, but that doesn't mean I don't see the problems with it first-hand and don't feel bummed for great pieces by artists who don't "play the game" or aren't "popular" and their stuff doesn't receive recognition.

So here's some suggestions:

By: Rykk on 1/19/06
1) Make "V" - or any other coded indication - a banning offense on the second incidence and re-ban when they try to sign up under a different name. No excuses for things like "language barrier". All of the non-english as primary language folks here seem to understand EXACTLY what's being said or going on and the only time they "didn't understand" was when they got caught at something. The second chance is for those who just didn't know. Likewise, anyone caught colluding thru IM's or e-mail(which would be pretty sick, IMO) - same thing.

2)There should be a 24 hour software coded delay placed on any vote cast. It's possible, once an image starts climbing the list, to monitor every comment as it's made and then check the H20 to discern if that person voted or not. If you've got time and energy for it. Placing a delay would cut off another opportunity for "vote swapping". There is a VERY good reason that, in ALL democracies, voting takes place either behind a wall, a curtain, or with a sealed ballot. This protects citizens from retribution for voting a certain way. Voting in this community should be as truly anonymous as possible, too.

3) EVERYONE should vote and vote often and vote as honestly and conscientiously as they can. It's the best way to find real consensus on which are the "best" pieces and to surmount any methods someone has come up with to "game the system".

By: Rykk on 1/19/06
4) This one is maybe not as workable but it might solve a problem "perceived" a while back in the T-Gen gallery:
Require every artist to select a "genre" on their homepage and then allow their votes to only count in their selected genre of experience or expertise. And put a week delay on any switching of genres. Artists could still comment/rank freely on anything they liked but only vote in galleries they have first-hand experience with that are within their chosen genre. The T-Gen folks were really fired up about votes from outside their gallery a couple of times last year. This would probably make them happier(?)

5) Do closer monitoring for "clone" votes. I know that this is possible to do and closer monitoring would help. Ban on the first offense because I can't for the life of me figure out how a person wouldn't know that it was wrong or which of their clones, if they had any, they were logged into as.

Anyhow, these are just some suggestions to make the current system work better and maybe some are dumb but I'm just trying to be constructive...

Oh yeah, and allow more than 2000(it counts wrong, anyhow) characters in message threads on the Frontpage like in the other gallery forums for long-winded blowhards like me. :-)

Rick

By: DennisReed on 1/19/06
Wow! Quite the turn out! ;)
I like the idea of Freedom of choice in whether to have an image voted on or not. I doubt your poll will represent that :( That was not the question. The Poll should have simply stated:
Should there be an option to have your image voted on, yes or no. What I will do with the option has no bearing! Of course voting is a case of popularity! Duh! Grow up people! I find the artists that complain the most about this, are the ones that browse or vote; Sooooo! I will continue to look in on the Hot 20 (usually about every three days, about as often as I look at the gallery thumbs). After all, we all know what the majority of viewers here want to see! SKIN! If you don't think so, take a patch of skin and make it your thumb, your viewed count will go to 300+. What I'd like to see, is a Hot 20 for each Genre! ;) I also like to have the TOS requirement be that the thumbs be a full minature of the art that will be seen! Talk about stirring up the hornets nest! :)

By: nysalor on 1/19/06
I haven't found the Hot 20 to be a reliable guide to quality, but, at least in the areas I frequent, mainly a guide to flesh on display. There are some exceptions of course - quality shines through.

In my observation, the system seems to be quite regularly abused (or perhaps 'optimised') by small cliches of friends or artists who have multiple logons.

Having said that, I got a tremendous buzz the first time one of my own works made the Hot 20. (Doubly so, since it wasn't a T&A piece!)

So some system of recognition should be retained.

Vague suggestions:

* Make it monthly.

* Voting places works in a non-public short list.

* Once a month, mods choose one piece of art from each artist in the top 20 or so.

* Folks can then vote for their single favourite.

We also need to look at the system of ratings, since 90% + of ratings seem to be 'Excellent'. To vote less is considered by some artists to be some sort of personal slur.

Cheers




My suggestion:

By: tiquanleap on 1/19/06
I for one have requested more than once to have the option of removing the vote button.
I do not view the top 20 and i have no desire to be in it.
Comments/feedback are all i ever wanted and i now only keep the comments turned on cuz a few people got mad when i turned it off.

By: daffodilbaggins on 1/19/06
Nick, I'm glad you've brought this up, as I've noticed that only a few people ever seem to have slots in the Hot 20, and some of the art in there, to me, isn't nearly as good as some of the art of others who never make it in there. I think it would indeed be a very good idea to allow each person to hold only one slot in there at a time, thereby making way for more artists to have slots as well. There's just no point in one artist having four or five of their pieces in there at one time, all the time! And that's what I've noticed. So that kind of change could really help the situation. I would hate for the Hot 20 to just totally disappear....

By: fluffgirl on 1/19/06
I think most people know how good their art is..… This would be demonstrated by the amount of comment they do receive regarding of how long they have been posting on renderosity or how many people they know… I have study the whole things for a year now…and if your art is good …no need to worry about the hot 20 because your work will speak for itself everywhere you post it…. Art is not a popularity contest… it is made with your heart it is posted to share with others… does it matter were or how it is categorized or by whom ….. How would you rate Michael Angelo… well! There you are…you couldn’t ....……much a do about nothing me think…. the hot 20.. Leave it alone it makes some people happy….

By: RajDArge on 1/20/06
The Hot 20 suffers from a number of problems:
it's too easy for "favourite artist" to be voted for cause its a simple click away.
there is no need for the voting button at all.
there should be 3 categories to vote in:
1. Content (I like the POV, I like the character I like the idea)
2. Technical merit (I like the way you've made the image, I like your use of lights, brushes, fractal flames xyz technique)
3. Composition (I like both content and technique, but it really excells in something, can't quite put my finger on it)

and for the cynics:
4. Personality (I think your a great guy/girl)

rules could weed out "donkey" votes by disallowing voting in all 3 (4) categories). Also stopping "favourite" arists voting (maybe you have to come back and find the image and vote after that or something)

I disagree with most who say "it just publish for myself" cause you don't need to publish at all in that case.
I would like to see new work by other artists, that other artists appreciate because that is the essence of an artistic "community". I look at the hot 20 from time to time, but I get tired of the same old images from the same old people.

I disagreee with fluff girl: new artists, or ones that don't have a following rarely get a comment because there are so many images on this great site. Sometimes too many too look through.

I would also like to see an "all gallery" hot 20 or something like it because I like fractals and photography and Max and poser and C4d and painting and the rest.

I think that voting should extend to 28 days and prizes for the best "all gallery" images (only small prizes) to encourage artistic endevour.

I think you should only be able to publish 2 pics/week in a particular category with a maximum of 1/day across all categories.
Good art takes time.

that's my two cents worth.

By: BtchGoddess on 1/20/06
I don't think the Hot20 should be eliminated. I propose simply changing the name of the list to "Most Popular 20" or something similar.
I also agree with those who suggested a list be created that is voted on by a select panel of judges. But I would like to see this judges list expanded to a top 50 or top 100 of the whole site. Personally, I just don't have time to pour though all the gallery images. I would love to have a quickly accessible list of great images that I would otherwise miss.

By: Rids on 1/20/06
Although I've already voted and commented I would like to add that a "Hot List" can work if done properly. A good example is the CG Choice gallery at CG Talk, all of the images in the list first have to be selected for an award by their judges and once in the list the position is derived by some mix of comments / ratings / views. This method would filter out the buddy votes before the process even begins and would give everybody a fair shot at making the list, entirely based on talent. Ok, its true that buddy votes could influence the position in the list but at least all of the artwork being voted for would be of a standard deserving votes in the first place. They also have more than one CG Choice gallery, in their case it is just split into 2D and 3D but the various genres could be split any number of ways.

By: designfera on 1/20/06
From what i´ve seen in other Art Communities, the artwork featured in the "Hot 20" is selected by the moderadors of the galleries. I´ve always felt this was the right way to go, like "Editor´s Picks".

Yes, unfortunatly the "Hot 20" has become more about popularity than the art itself. But if the voting were to be done only by the moderadors, it would become more reliable and more of a valid recognition.

It´s nice to have a category where you are able to see some of the best artist we have were at Renderosity. It is a recognition of their work, an inspiration to others, and perhaps even encouragement to strive to do better artwork.

Yes, The "artist of the Month/Year" does that, but a weekly based selection is a nice idea. What about a category called "This Week Standouts", where moderadors would chose the best artworks for that week? Just a thought...

By: SirJohn on 1/20/06
I still think that the hot 20 is really a product of getting out of the community what you put into it in many ways (like I said earlier in this thread). If you have the time to invest in this community... if you are able to consistantly comment on the works of others... more people will be likely to pay attention to what you are doing (thus increasing your chances of recieving votes for your work).

Some people make the list often simply because they are extrememly friendly and social... they have many friends who enjoy what they do and so they get many votes by default as a result. Personally, I have no problem with this. I see the hot 20 as a reward for great art AND a reward for putting alot of effort into being an active part of this community.

If the hot 20 were something that I aspired to make every time I posted an image I would have to change my entire approach to creating. Luckily, I do not care one way or another. It all boils down to what is really important to you... popularity... or simply enjoying the act of sharing what you do with this community. Not everybody here has the same reasons for posting their work after all.

By: kansas on 1/20/06
Voting should be optional as is ranking and comments.

I check the Hot 20 a couple tiimes each week. IMO, some of the best fractals don't get there. That is partly my fault as I rarely vote.

I do believe in the fractal community, the FWW shows a more accurate selection of good and diverse fractal art, even though I might have made a slightly different selection.

Marion



By: clifftoppler on 1/20/06
Sorry I clicked the wrong button. My message ends "but the Hot 20 in its present form is hardly worth serious attention.

By: R_Vargus on 1/20/06
Please get rid of the hot 20. Just go to the Vue Hot 20 as an example. If I see another fairy type picture from certain people I think I might just hurl. I mean how many ways can you pose a fairy, the same tree and vegetation variations? The same 8 or 10 votes every time for the same people over and over is just plain ridiculous. Do this site a favor and get rid of such none sense. Thanks very much.

By: venerella on 1/20/06
We all know entering the hot 20 is only a friendship or 'simpathy' thing, so why have it? There are outstanding works ( really outstanding) not in in the hot 20, and real s**** ones in the hot 20 too. More, this cause a competition between people than friendship. Naw, not way the hot 20 would have to follow to exist. More friendship, less competition. Let give each one the possibility do NOT voting without the so called artist can see that. Isn't that true I can see who voted me and who didn't by chance? Sure it is. Hot 20 is a tempting pity for frustrated ones, and good ones are left away! OFF!!!!!!!!

By: cherokee69 on 1/20/06
With the controversy of the "Hot 20" which is now just a joke because of the people with many alias voting for themselves with those alias named, the Hot 20 should just be deleted from Rosity alltogether.

By: venerella on 1/20/06
Ok I want to say one thing more. Someone says: Disabling comments. Would that make the difference? *laugh*
You can subscribe at RR all the times you want with different emails addies and going to vote where you want more times. We all know it, come on. Then why beeing hypocrits? If the hypocrisy is allowed in the gallery then I will follow to do this joke me too, may be also voting twice or more, if this joke will not be allowed then we will be less hypocrits.
And each one posts in the Poser gallery at least (cuz that's the one I post at, can't tell about the others) KNOWS am saying the truth.
Then... stop bullshits! hot 20 gotta be off!

By: venerella on 1/20/06
...and why NOT telling also about those IM we get from people kindly, soooo kindly coming asking for comments??? Come on, if that happened to me it happened with you as well. Something like:
Hello! I've been just posting in my gallery, a comment of yours would be really appreciate. (This is kinda the most polite one). Or: I've been just commenting your work, and I've been posting me too ;=))) (Oh this one is famous cuz each time he/she posts enters the hot 20.... who know why uh? LOL)
And, last..... why, me I real wonder why... you follow to speak about ART. Start speaking less about art, and start going around to look for other's WORKS, of those people going into the program for real, studying the way to do this or that, those people who will never enter the hot 100 neither cuz they don't care, but who are those REALLY making good stuff. This is all for entering a CD, DVD or whut the heck it is dunno? bleah. I find it disgusting.

By: grind on 1/20/06
The hot20 is definatly a popularity competition...perhaps if people could only vote o say 3 images a day? In the end I think it would work better if Renderosity admins decided the hot20 each week.

By: sacada on 1/20/06
With the huge amount of image submissions there has to be a way to view the ones that stand out without having to go through every gallery and every page, every day. I no longer have the time to do this, so the Hot 20 is a great way to quickly view the better images of the week.

It would be good have a "most viewed" and "most commented" for past 30 days, only counting the views for that 30 days.

And PLEASE add paging (ie. next 20, next 20, etc...) so we can see more than the usual suspects on page 1.

By: twistednoodle on 1/20/06
Its the name of the thing that's incorrect - it does not reflect the images that are "hot" - it merely tells you which picture got the most votes so change it to "Most Voted"

By: SophiaDeer on 1/20/06
I agree with designfera, that if the Hot 20 continues it should be selected by the moderadors of the galleries.

I like the idea of Editor's Pick.

By: Maori on 1/21/06
I agree with "designfera". This is should be about just displaying your works without becoming a contest and a popularity. If I like to compete then I should enter my works once a month in the contest category, moderators should rate our works, I understand that some people are not too happy with the "Hot 20". Of course, this is just my opinion. I go along with designfera's idea 100%. This is just my opinion of course.

By: glennn23 on 1/21/06
IF there were an obvious way to fix the Hot20, then it would have been done by now. The problem is that we are asking computers/calculations to fix something that is about humans/RESPONSIBILITY.

The only way AROUND this is to assign the issue of choosing the best images to people or peoples who we all generally agree to hold RESPONSIBILITY.

This is ALREADY being done in the LAST WEEK IN THE GALLERIES... My idea is to expand upon this idea: If you put TWO links on the front page SIDE BY SIDE and you explain that one link is a measure of POPULAR VOTE (Hot 20) and the second link is a measure of JURIED VOTE (LWintheG), then somewhere between the two lies the TRUTH, or at least a general idea of the images that may be the best.

By: abmlober on 1/21/06
My greatest wish: A filter setting for the galleries that I may define myself. For example: From the last 14 days all those images with at least n views or m comments. And the gallery of each artist should be viewable in the sort orders "Most Viewed first", "Most Commented first", ...
And drop the Hot 20 please.

By: templargfx on 1/21/06
I think that a good way to start to improve the thinking behind the hot 20 voting system, is to remove the anonymous aspect from voting, but also require that the person voting on the image needs to leave a comment. These comments are visible when viewing the hot 20.

another thing that would really help artists who feel there getting "duped" when what they consider is there best image does not appear in the hot 20 would be to allow the artist to see the number of votes and comments on there image.

now, of course some people say that a few artists ask for votes from friends etc to get in the hot 20. if artists could see the number of votes then they would have an easier time doing this. I seriously doubt this happens, but one way of countering this would be to allow the artists to see the number of votes an image got over the last 7 day period, and not the current number of votes for this 7 day period.

to conclude, I will again suggest getting rid of anonymous votes, and requiring a comment from the voter. why? lengthening the voting process will help to stop people just voting for the sake of voting. now they will need to write a comment, one that anyone can see should the image reach the hot 20.

By: templargfx on 1/21/06
heres another idea, each member get 5 "votes" per area per week. instead of the VOTE button on the image, have like a "add to vote list" button. then, in the members area you can select a VOTING page where it will show you a gallery of images you have selected for voting in that area. you can then go through and give your 5 votes to any of those images in your voting gallery.

Basically the same underlying idea as my last comment, make voting take more time, and effort

By: clifftoppler on 1/22/06
Hi Nick,
The Hot 20 is surely getting a ROASTING.
Voting requires impartiality. It calls on the voter to study every image in the category concerned. Can we do that in the most popular galleries? The number of viewings shown for any and every image says it doesn’t happen and I suspect you will mostly agree it cannot do so.
The Hot 20 in its present form is worse than useless yet we do need some guide which takes us quickly to the quality images. Please can we focus on this (and with a heartfelt tear for the poor selectors? Their task too would be nigh impossible).
Please, too, do away with the ranking system. It doesn’t work. “Excellent,” for every image, Phooey!

By: Snow_Angel on 1/22/06
Being acused of being popular and being made out as not a worthy artist to be in the Hot 20s, and losing friends because you have too many votes is not the sort of inspiring atmosphere we need as artists. Several artists here have been through enough humiliation already. "VOTE NO" on the Hot 20s. Stop the accusations! I also agree with pushinfaders!

By: Fatale on 1/22/06






yep, best solution is limit how many times a person can vote per week.



By: misfit7707 on 1/22/06
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I agree that it could simply be a popularity contest, I see people in the chat room all the time giving links to their images, hoping people will comment what they think (how much of a difference this makes, I don't know). BUT there could be a system to improve upon the quality of the HOT 20. I have an idea that may be of help.

There could be several HOT 20 galleries, one for each month or however long everyone feels is appropriate. After that period of time, a new space in renderosity will be opened and devoted to entries for one week. If I have a picture that I believe is worthy of this month's HOT 20, I will submit it as an entry. The pictures will show up as made by ANONYMOUS (in case it really is a popularity contest, we wouldn't want names to influence the voting process). At the end of one week, the option for entries will close, and voting will begin. I like templargfx's idea of having a limited number of votes per person. How the entries gallery will be set up is that for every voter that enters, the pictures that they see will be put in random order, meaning that the order of pictures presented to voters will vary from viewer to viewer (if I go into the entries gallery to vote, I will see different pictures on page 1 than what my neighbor would see on the same page, as long as the pictures are still from the entries during the open week. We don't want every voter to get done voting before they get to the earliest entries (assuming the pictures would have been placed in order of entry), not to mention even getting tired of just looking anymore!)

wow that was a long explanation of putting the pictures in random order.. I have been known to ramble a bit, so... bear with me.

By: misfit7707 on 1/22/06
The voters will be given two weeks to cast their votes (voters will not be able to vote for images more than once, votes will be anonymous, anonymous comments are optional, and no one vote will be more or less important than the next (no voter can punch a picture in as their 'favorite of the five they were allowed to pick'), voters will not have to cast all five of their votes and can choose if they even want to vote at all or just comment. As for encouragements, voters will be encouraged to view every page of the entries gallery before they begin to vote, and they will be encouraged to take their votes seriously, (we don't want any picture to win because everybody thought it was so hilariously crappy that they just HAD to see it in the winner's circle, or because the picture's caption reads that the contestant's cousin's step-brother's dentist has cancer, and people felt sorry for him). Finally, everyone that enters the entries gallery will be considered a voter, but obviously they can't leave and then return with five new potential votes--everybody gets five votes per voting period.... period.)

At the end of the two-week voting period, the winners will be calculated, and the number of votes they recieve will be posted below their thumbnail in the gallery. Also at the end of the voting period, the picture's creators will no longer remain anonymous (the votes and those who chose to comment anonymously will remain anonymous)

By: misfit7707 on 1/22/06
The gallery will present the winners of the HOT 20 contest for a period of one week, and will obviously be accessible for a year or two or however long the renderosity can keep the HOT 20 galleries. At the end of the one week viewing period, the cycle will end and the week for entries will begin at the start of the new month. (note: the viewing period will vary depending on how long the month is, unless the decided cycle time is not a month long)

For pictures that appear in galleries other than the HOT 20 gallery, a notice that that picture is a HOT 20 winner will be posted beneath the picture, as a link to the HOT 20 gallery in which it appeared. A notice that the picture's creator was a HOT 20 winner will also be put in their profile, again as a link.

Finally, people who enter their art will remain anonymous, and will not be allowed to write their name in the caption below their image, and will be disqualified if they are found to have written themselves in as the creator in a comment, and perhaps in the chat room, as well.

In terms of image guidelines, normal gallery rules would apply.

Oh, and one more idea I would like people to tell me if they like: voters can TAKE BACK their votes, and change their minds if they stumble across a picture they think is more worthy, as long as no more than one vote from the same voter are spent on any one image.


This is how the HOT 20 gallery would be set up if it were up to me. I don't know if I'll come back to this forum, but if I do, I would like to read what people think of this setup. I may be describing something too radically different than what the HOT 20 currently is, or I may be describing a contest the currently exists, I don't really check either one out all too often.

Perhaps the timing could be modified to allow weekly HOT 20 galleries, I don't know.
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By: novelist999 on 1/22/06
I haven't been a member of Renderosity for long, but it's apparent to me that there's a popularity contest going on in the galleries. I've seen horrible artwork receive a ton of lavish praise while some really good pieces have fallen by the wayside to be buried beneath the massive pile. So I really don't have a high opinion of the voting system or of the feedback in the galleries. In all honesty, I could care less about the top 20.


By: ShadowWind on 1/23/06
There is no solution really to the Hot20. There isn't people to go through 500 images a day to try and catch the best ones unless they are paid to do just that. And getting a consensus would even be worse. I say to get rid of the Hot20 and replace it with the following...

Most Viewed for Time Frame
Most Commented for Time Frame
Most Voted for Time Frame
Most Rated for Time Frame

Time frame meaning 7,30,60 or whatever amount of days or hours or whatever you want.

Also put the pager back on the most commented, most viewed, etc, so we can see what's beyond the first page which generally gets overtaken by the popular crowd (not their fault, but it's just the way it goes).

And a random gallery of 100 images, where each artist gets to put in 1 image from their artwork that they feel is their best (they can change it when they want, but only 1 at a time) and have those come up in a Gallery Showcase. This way every artist gets a good chance at exposure.

The Hot20 in it's current standing generally comes down to 7 more days of exposure for one's work, which is why it's of any real importance. It's not about best, but about the exposure. It's never going to be fair no matter how you slice it, so the above suggestions would cover a far more reaching span.

My 2c

By: Sammie2 on 1/23/06
The voting button only inflates the egos of those being voted into the Hot20 over and over again. BTW why type the little *v*'s on the comments under the images? Isn't that just a way to beg someone so they will vote for you? There is no need to type the letter 'v' if you really DID vote for the artwork. Let the button speak for you. That's just an easy way to entice others to vote for your image in return. KISS = keep it simle sister. Turn off the VOTE button.

By: Digimon on 1/23/06
I agree with many of the other artists listed here. One entry per genre. I have never paid attention to it, Hell I didn't even know how to get to it until recently. Even though I have been told in the past that I was in it. I am flattered that I get voted for now and then, I guess I have two in the Hot20 right now? But that's not why I post, I post to share art and communicate with other artists. For similar reasons I turned ranking off, I am not interested in "Gold stars", just what people think. This is a great disscusion! One entry per genre!!

By: dolfijntjes on 1/23/06
I never cared for the top 20 there are so many good artist to enjoy here far more then the few with the most friends. To be honoust I rarely look at the top 20 :)

By: zoren on 1/23/06
It is always interesting, for me, to view the hot 20 picks to see the art work voted for. I don't see it as a measure of excellence as much as popularity, but isn't all art subjective? Does not some art become "great" through popularity? Will there not always be groupies for certian talent? A moment to shine, for some... We make Art to express and to be seen and enjoyed by others, an audience for our hard work... however, choice is always best.(I've always believed the rating system was a bit noxious.)


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