Its great your doing this for the Upgraders BUT:
There is no reason to upgrade at all anymore
in 2009 the NEW windows wil come "Vienna"
So keep what you got it will serve you for 2 more years even more ..
And then check "Vienna" ..
More on the NEW windows "Vienna" can be found on the Internet.
There is NO point of switching from one 32 bit version of windows to a other Slower less compatible version of a 32 bit OS.
The 64 bit version cost extra and is even less compatible...
Keep the not broken thing and dont upgrade untill you cant do anything other "new Pc etc"
"Or think about getting a MAC ..the Father and Mother of Vista"
Looks like a great article so far. I can't wait for the section where you test programs like Poser and Vue... and Vista's lack of OpenGL support. ;)
Though I am a little concerned about Vista questioning me every time I want to open an older program. I can understand how it would want to block unknown software or "malware", but to block Dreamweaver?
I know the solution mentioned in the article is to switch to Administrator Mode, but isn't the point of Vista to get everyone to be in User Mode just so malware and viruses can't hijack computers?
I have a question about the "minimum requirements": do you know if these are decent specs or are they similar to the minimum requirements listed for some games? In other words, should the "minimum requirements" come with a disclaimer that says "Sure you can run Vista with these low system specifications, but know that it will run dog-slow and your 'Vista Experience' will be horrendous."
JHoagland: Vista lacks OpenGL support? How are we supposed to run programs such as Maya or XSI?
By: Paula Sanders
JHoagland - I can answer some of your comments here. I don't know about minimim requirments. All I can go on are what Microsoft states and what I experience on my computer. So far, Vista has acted very smoothly in Administrative mode.
I have been doing quite a bit with Vue 6 I and have not experienced any problems. It seems to work very smoothly. I have not imported objects other than those from Vue, however. I usually keep most of my images strictly Vue and add alpha planes. I plan to play with poser 6 and 7 very soon.
I have been using Vue's hardware OpenGL without a problem.
All I really want to know is:
1) Do Poser 6 & 7 work?
2) Does Vue 5 work?
3) Does Carrara work?
If the answer to any of those are "no", Vista is a no-go for me.
1. Poser 6 and 7?
2. Carrara 5?
3. With no programs running...how many processes are up and running and how much memory is being used?
I got to tell you that from what I have been hearing, Vista is one heck of a performance hit for us 3d types. I'm seriously thinking about XP 64 instead.
By: Paula Sanders
I'll be showing a screen shot in my next article, but the Poser previews for both 6 and 7 of Jessi and Sidney with clothes were not very good. the clothes were distorted. the renders were OK. It is the same video card that I had used with XP Pro where the clothes looked good in preview mode.
By: Paula Sanders
I made a mistake in my last post. I meant to say that both Poser 6 and 7 people in Poser 7 have the same problem. I just tried the same dress with Jessi in Poser 6 and it is OK. The dress looks fine in preview mode. I'll do more testing before the next article.
I think this post on my friend's blog sums up my feeling about Vista from what I've read:
Also included in his blog post is a link to a Tom's Hardware review of Vista. Performance hits abound for 3D apps and rendering. The DRM crud is the big thing that will keep Vista out of my house though.
Result: My next machine will be a Mac, and the Windows boxes will stay Win2k or go Linux.
I am upgrading my pc and keeping Windows XP, will do all that is needed to make the pc faster, but why do I need a program that in my books looks like XP anyway and has some nasties on it that I dont need, there are no 64bit programs availabe in Australia as yet.
I will not fall for Microsofts drivel like I did last time, looks like to me if it aint broke dont fix it
One thing I would like to highlight is that Vista seems to constantly thrash the hard drive. I have been running Vista now for around 5 days, on a Core2Duo machine and the HD is constantly being thrashed. I have figured it is the indexing service within Vista causing this, and have since diabled it. It might be worth doing if you do not rely heavily on the search function within vista, with it switched off I can still search functionally but I do not have the constant disc thrashing.
Another note, It seems to rely heavily on the page file, constantly switching back and forth as it is very RAM hungry, so it may be worth taking use of the the ReadyBoost feature within Vista to help this.
Software issues have found none yet, with either Photoshop, Indesign, Painter or Cinema4, all applications are very responsive with load times ranging from 1-4seconds and no errors to report at all.
James, maybe I can help you with your third question.. On my machine Core2Due(E6300)1GB of DDR2 667, 320GB SATAII HD.. With Aero enabled and nothing running it averages about 550-650MB of RAM just sat there, hence the constant page file usage. It may well be worth running more RAM and also ReadyBoost. Hope that helps. Running processes/services are running around the 54 mark, but some of those on my end are IntelViiv and a few other minimal apps.
i purchased a new laptop with Vista(didnt have any w/ XP) on it which i didnt want to begin with and my Poser 5 wouldnt work... thankfully i was smart and bought the last copy of XP the day we got the laptop... which Vista btw is a pain in the butt to remove... i couldnt do it (after 3 days of tryin to) so i had to pay someone else to do it which they even had problems finding all the correct drivers to get XP to work like it should... took 5 days for them but it works perfect...
in those 4 days that i had it before takin it to a shop i figured out that Vista wasnt worth the hype it had and XP was actually better... other than it hated most graphics programs and games, the most annoying thing bout Vista i had was when i was removing things from it... the constant verifications before deletion were irritating... if i remember it was like 3 different verifications ya had to do before you could delete anything as even a file you yourself created not just the junk files that come with a new computer...
I did a few tests for the last 2 days on Vista Ultimate, and found the following:
Programs tested and working so far:
Daz Studio 1.X
Poser 7 (seems to run faster then P5)
Programs not working (so far):
Genetica 2.X (pro or non-pro)
Programs remaining to test:
Vue 5 (inf and regular)
Poser 4 (trying to find my key, program too old, but love it lol).
Thats just what I have tested so far, and more testing will take place. My next test will be on Vista 64 Bit.
Just thought people wanted to know what works out of the 3D Apps World. Hope this helps out someone.
BTW: Windows Vista will tell you that U cannot turn off Indexing on the drive, yet you can turn off the option within Drive Properties.
The system drive is being accessed a lot more then any other OS tested so far by me, and my RAM is at 2 GB, yet still accessing the drive often.
OS starts very slow and goes into the desktop slow, but once inside the OS, the programs load REALLY FAST (except P5, which seems to be REALLY SLOW compared with P7). My P7 loaded really fast and worked quite faster too VS P5. Perhaps of the new code, not sure on that one, but works faster and smoother then P5.
Just my tests so far. Again I hope someone will find this helpful.
MiKo0: I had the indexing problem with XP Pro as well - I turned that off!
What concerned me in a recent 3DWorld magazine article was that Vista refuses to install unsigned hardware drivers. In XP there is the option to install anyway. So if the driver issue is fact then I will stick with what I have.
Installed Vista over the weekend. Wouldn't go back to XP. But it's a matter of choice at the moment until hardware starts coming out that won't support XP (or software).
Poser 7 works fine and about 2 times faster on my machine.
PSP Photo XI also works fine and is much faster too.
Have had some glitches with Firefox though (and AdBlock not working or Adobe Flash Player). Also had troubles with some functions of Thunderbird not working like Message filters.
Apart from that I'm very happy with it.
If you're running less than 2GB of RAM though I'd recommend waiting til then. I have 4GB which leaves plenty handy if needed.
Windows Vienna is now scheduled for 2010 with WIndows Fiji (Vista r2) planned for release in 2009 instead.
I had no problems with unsigned drivers Becco. Including the one for my Belkin USB Wireless adaptor which installed much easier under Vista. Also i don't need to run the USB Wireless utility from Belkin anymore either, Vista simply uses it anyway.
By: Paula Sanders
cornhelp - In my version of Poser 7, if you dress either Jessi or Sidney, the clothes have a moire type pattern as you will see in my next article. In Poser 6 in preview, they looked normal. Did you notice anything like that? It would be interesting to know since my graphic elements rated very high on their "rating scale."
Just tried clothing Sydney.
Had no problems at all with her. I will give Jessi a try later.
I'm a beta tester of Vista and it works like a dream. Yeah, it does ask your permission to do things and that can be a little annoying, but at the sametime is also reassuring that it does that. Also Vista works great. Haven't found anything that I used under XP that Vista doesn't do better. For example, My scanner worked fine under XP but under Vista it works through PSP rather than the dippy software that it came with. It flat refused to work in PSP under XP. Using Vista I didn't have to do a thing. Vista is easily the best OS that MS has came out with. I have told people who asked me about it that Vista is to XP as XP is to Windows 3.11 for work groups. It is that good.
Carrara 5 Pro does cannot render animations, at least to a movie file in Vista. 3D CG is not on Microsoft's list of Uses for Computers.
Tom's Hardware Guide and CGSociety/CGTalk have the same conclusion about Vista: Stay with XP Pro 32 or 64 bit, at least for now.
As long as there are Updates for XP (until 2009 I guess), Iīll keep on using it.
Vista seems to be only interesting for somebody who wants to use the newest Soft- and Hardware and digital Media available. Itīs a bit of a fashion thing at the moment.
I buy a PC every 3 to 5 years and use it and the software as long as it is satisfying my needs. Staying up to date in hard- and software all time is a waste of money.
When you can use all the programs you want and XP is running stable, Vista is unnecessary.
By: Paula Sanders
Starmage - Thanks for the feedback. I bet it is the video card driver on mine even though it is the most current.
No probs :)
Jessi also went fine on my system. I'm running the NVidia 7800GTX.
Main annoying thing I'm having at the moment is that Vista doesn't think Daz installers complete successfully.....
btw I don't find the "Accept" program question an issue. It's nice to know that it actually asks before running programs. It's a nice little touch to stop malware/spyware being installed (without your knowledge) which is why it's not recommended to run in Administrator mode at all times.
How exciting, but when will micky release udpates, patches, etc for this one too? To the point (like XP Pro) you will be lucky to even open boot it up in less than 2 hours.
I think I will wait until the 2020 version named "Wienerschnitzel" .. lol
I'm gonna stick with good old reliable Win 2k, (my xp pro CD collects dust in the closet now) Besides not all of us can run out and buy a new pc to pacify software. Wasn't it the other way aound in the old days. They developed software to pacify the pc?
Or hey how about this..you buy Vista and it comes with a free pc..geez
But still, a nicely written review here. Well done, Paula :o)
Braver than I am. I'm going to wait until my next computer before I get Vista. And since I just bought an AMD 5000+ it'll be the year after next before I consider it, time for multi-multi processors to get involved truly...maybe Intels super-high speed chips...
From what I've heard, Vista is like removing half the ram, setting all winXP's bells and whistles on max, and setting a defrag to run every 10 minutes. I've even heard of it running Maya (yeah, like I could afford MAYA) at 1/10 speed. I've also heard it constantly re-scans the computer looking for illegal software or MP3's... Nice. And, even if one doesn't have either, what about recordings you make yourself or "Abandonware" such as Sonique?
Speaking of which, an article for a site like this should be a collection of "Test Runs" on every piece of 3D software you have, and if you do digital art (such as with the intensive "Painter") performance issues related to it.
That is, render a couple scenes, and animations under various software. Poser, TrueSpace, Lightwave, etc... Work on 1000x1000 600DPI pics with Painter, using the upper "Impasto" functions. Make notes, and save everything.
Then, do the same things in Vista... And, cold equations, record what the difference is. (providing you can still even access the internet)
A bunch of negative reviews, and maybe even that 900lb gorilla on Viagra might see that most users (especially the graphics hounds and the programmers) hate bloatware, spyware, bells and whistles, they want a spartan, super-fast operating system with whatever 'bells and whistles' to be unobtrusive and removable if not necessary.
Congrats on doing this.
As far as getting a Mac, yeah and Apple does not make mistakes too.
To be fair, we need to give the software devs who make the software a chance to come out with patches that work with Vista. After service patch 1 or 2 it should be much better. Gamers should have a blast with Vista once it stabilizes.
Microsoft has ever supported OpenGL...that is why OpenGL was never included in graphic card drivers downloaded from the Microsoft website.
OpenGL dependant programs will run on Vista like previous versions before it, by using the OpenGL API included with you graphic cards manufacturers drivers - always download drivers from the ATI or nVIDIA website.
OpenGL runs on Vista just as it did on XP, 2000, 98 etc.
Good review so far, Paula.
As a computer professional who's been testing Vista in a corporate software development environment since last summer I have to warn you... stay away from Vista. Far, far away. It's definitely not fit for human consumption by any stretch of the imagination. I don't see my 2.6GHz peecee running anything above Win2k. Course, I have a Mac too...
Well unfortunatly i bought a new lap top with vista on it like many others after the release date of vista all machines now sold at your local electronic store will come with vista only it.
I have had nothing but problems with it since i got. First off the I had to turn off the user controls cause that is so annoying to have to keep hitting allow for everything i want to do.
I mean i can see a purpose for it for some one that has alot of important information or a business, but for the everyday single user that feature is not needed imo.
Second off alot of my programs could not be installed. For exaple my new laptop came with a 30 day trial of Macfee security suit. Well It wasnt but a few months ago i purchased the latest version so i figured i uninstall the trail version and install the one I purchased. Big mistake
When I went to install my version of the program i get a message saying This program can not be installed by this operating system . I mean come on this is a program version that was released a little over a year ago i beleive. So I had to install the trial version back on until i can sit down and figure out how to get that program on.
Its also worth mentioning few of my other programs I couldnt get to work but luckly I found a work around where I had to take files from the version installed on my old system burn them to a cd and replace them on my vista machine. again a big pain the arse.
As far as poser 6 & 7 i just upgraded to poser 7 and so far it seems to crash alot on vista. *sigh* so I dont know what to do about that yet. The system I bought is well capable of runing poser. It has AMD 64 duel core processor, ati radeon graphics card and 1024 Ram. So obviously poser and vista are not getting along for some reason.
Im about to my wits end with vista and about to do a complete system restore then dual boot my windows xp on this machine and run with xp. So to some it all up thank you microcrap for first not giving people the option to purchase machines with vista or xp on it and cramming vista down our throats. and second thank you for creating so for IMO peice of crap rip off of linux and mac OS system. Bill Gates can you ever come up with something of your own Idea or do you constently have to rip off other people.
Okay that is my rant unfortunatly I dont feel better about anything like most do when you get stuff off your chest.
I tell ya, it amazes me what Gates and company get away with. It saddens me greatly, how many people will have to actually buy his sorry software. I suppose folks don't really have a choice other than spending three times as much for a Mac with the same functionality, I know if I had a real affordable choice, I wouldn't be on windows. I originally began watching various online sources for info on Vista with interest. After a while, the OS looked fairly good if a bit resource hungry. I run an AMD Athlon 64x2 3200 CPU, an Abit KN8 NForce Ultra motherboard with 2GB of fast Corsair DDR400 RAM, an Nvidia GeForce 6600FX 256MB Video card, Soundblaster Audigy II sound card and 2 300GB Seagate SATA II Hard drives. I built it myself last year, thinking it should be sufficient for Vista. However... Now I am coming to the realization that my terrific little box, which runs XP Pro flawlessly, will only be mediocre if I put Vista on it.
I also have heard of the thoroughly over the top and intrusive DRM technology which MickeySloth has put in it, as well as the stupid security system that asks you to verify everything. On top of that, the requirements for it to run really well are so far out there, I would probably need a new PC to effectively use it.
I have seen the Aero interface. It isn't all that spectacular. If I want a cutesy interface with overbloated overhead, I will just get windowblinds. I do not feel like having to replace my hard drives every 12 months because the stupid indexing system wears them out, and I refuse to allow software to go snooping around my harddrive no matter what the reason.
It amazes me that so many people have once again gone to the temple of Bill and ponied up 2 weeks pay or more for a simple OS. Remember folks, no matter how pretty it is, it is still just an operating system. I guess it is true that Bill could sell ice cubes to a penguin and make it sign a yearly upgrade contract to insure it always has the newest and best ice cubes in a timely manner.
In short, after weighing the pros (Scant few) and the cons (Numerous). I have decided to skip this OS altogether unless certain conditions are met.
1. Either Billy Gates and company or some creative young coder, break the stupid DRM so the system doesn't zap all of the MP3 files I have legally made from my own music collection of CDs over the years
2. The software is changed so you have your full admin rights back. I am a power user and I like to tweak things for performance. I want FULL control over everything going on on my machine.
3. The Indexing feature is fixed so it doesn't kill your hard drive in a year.
4. All of the current compatability issues are dealt with.
5. You have the abilityy to shut down windows firewall and other secuity programs, and preferably remove them altogether. I prefer to run norton and Mcafee products for these functions.
Right now, the way Vista seems to be, I won't touch it. I also bet there are a lot more users out there who feel the same way. If Apple were smart, they would see this as a golden opportunity to add a whole new market segment. All they would have to do woud be to release a version of Mac OS which will run on PCs. The way Mickeysloth has dropped the ball, they could scoop up a ton of users, especially if they made it compatable with existing windows apps.
Just my 2 cents. Don't buy into Billy Boys newfangled thingamajiggies. Stay with XP or 2K and maybe Bill will get that clue he has been needing all these years.
Thanks so much for reviewing Vista. Great work!
Great to see all the feedback on this as well. I'm still holding off upgrading just yet, though.
As a programmer for over 25 years, I have to agree with sparrownighmage's comments entirely. I have attended meetings where software engineers have spent their entire resources trying to think of ways to force you the client to purchase unnessessary software to perpetuate their continued incomes. Bill Gates has been the architect of this exploitist philosophy from the start. When he killed the Justice Departments case by paying off the plaintiff (Yes the Netscape guy who started the suit went to work for Microsoft as soon as the case was dropped) he set a president that big money corporations could do whatever they want to the public and no one could touch them.
My nephew is also a computer programmer and has many connections in the industry. It is our opinion that Vista is a typical Microsoft strategig release designed not to give the user ANY additional functionality, but to force the user to not only buy what they already own again (Windows OS) but to force the user to buy hardware that they already own.
Furthermore, this release attempts to remove the end users freedom to own and control their computing environment by directly controlling YOUR desktop and preventing you from deciding what upgrades and components you will purchase and use.
Anyone who is foolish enough to buy this upgrade deserves what they get (a loss of freedom at the very least). I suggest that everyone wait to upgrade untill you are forced to do so (and you will eventually be forced to do so, mark my words because they will change the protocols of the software/hardware in terfaces to prevent you upgrading your components without the new release. A strategy that adds no functionality or capability, just market share control.) The only voice you have in this debate is to not buy the upgrade for as long as you can.
Lastly, I emplore the author to include information sources other than those listed at the beginning of this article. All of which are simply commercials to help sell a gullible public an unnessesary and even undesireable product. (If you think American politicians can't be trusted, where do you think they get their training - American big business led by Microsoft and Bill Gates. Follow the money and use your brains, folks. Do what is best for you, not what is best for the richest man on the planet.)
Sadly, thats the way it is, Feb 19 2007!
Sparrownightmare sees it the way I do. However, I think Billy and the boys are a bit slow about getting cues. I won't switch to Vista unless Forced. I like the software I'm using and don't want to jump through hoops to continue doing so.
The "Windows Vista article poll" didn't ask one thing about the DRM which is the real concern.
Login and voice your opinion!
Nickeysloth's plan and operational modes are actually quite brillant although thoroughly and completely reprehensible. This is how they seem to work tomake the max amount of profit.
Phase one: Release a very buggy, barely stable and overbloated product for about three times what it's worth.
Phase two: charge the people who buy it for tech support to get it to work with some measure of reliability.
Phase three: After fleecing the public for all you can on support, release a service pack that breaks different feaures of the OS and repeat phase two.
Phase 4: Announce a new OS which is just an updated and slightly more stable version of the old one and get users to be beta testers and beta test the new pile of bugs for free.
Phase five; Repeat all pahses in sequence ever few years, while gobbling up any other company who even looks like they may try to design a competing OS.
Just my 2 cents.