But stupid metacreations never fixed that bug in ID 4.5 where anti-aliias doesn't work on raytraced objects and they come out all jaggy. The program was so much better when it was owned by Specular. Yeah I was never a raydream fan and the only thing that survived from ID is the particle engine and its interface, texture mapping decals, and some pieces of the modeler. The spline modeler in ID is what really shined - I just can never get my head around the raydream style modeler in carrara. But yeah that is the past. So much has changed. C3 is still a pretty cool program and I like playing with HDRI and some of the newer technologies. Now if my copy would just get here... Scott