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 Subject: Demise of the Face Room

druc opened this issue on Sep 12, 2020 · 23 posts

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  druc    ( ) ( posted at 5:19AM Sat, 12 September 2020 · edited on 5:20AM Sat, 12 September 2020

I read that the Face Room will be "Deprecated" (means not approved) because "better third-party tool exist". OK, I understand from previous forum comments over the years that the Face Room was problematic from a business point of view due to the cost of adding additional avatars to the supported list, not to mention any other technical or user issues.

My question relates to: What other third-party tools are there that we can take a Poser compatable figure and use photos to create a head/face morph?

Blender has an expensive add on that will morph an application supplied head using photos, but that is not a Poser avatar or third party avatar that is compatable with Poser and I doubt if it could be used to create a morph target for an existing avatar that is compatable with Poser.


  hborre    ( ) ( posted at 11:00AM Sat, 12 September 2020  · @4399321

Aside from the HeadShop apps sold at Rendo and DAZ 3D, there is FaceGen which does a very good job interpreting face photos to 3D models. But the price tag may put you off. FaceGen.com.


  druc    ( ) ( posted at 9:17PM Sat, 12 September 2020  · @4399352

Thanks for the reply hborre, I had looked at Headshop. It is a single figure "La Femme" application. Thanks for the suggestion of FaceGen. Unfortunately, it is Genesis and Daz application. The price is acceptable if a person only uses Genesis 1 & 2 figures and Daz. KeenTools FaceBuilder is the one I mentioned for Blender. It only supports the app. supplied head model and at $149 per year subscription might be an option for model builders, but not gneral users.

So to recap, La Femme for Poser and Genesis for Daz are supported. That doesn't, in my opinion, equate to options for Poser users and the variety of Models available.


  Richard60    ( ) ( posted at 3:12PM Sun, 13 September 2020  · @4399397

Since it does not appear that a new set of figures is going to be released with Poser 12 (which is a good thing) and since the New Flag Ship figures La Femme and L Homme don't have Face room support it does not make sense to keep something like the Face Room in the program. Anyone using the Face room at the moment already has a version of Poser that has the room and there is no reason why you can't keep using your older version when Poser 12 is released. Since the older figures that Poser has have little to no support and won't have until some way is found to remove the requirement that conforming cloths can only be made for a single figure and that La Femme is now the Poser figure the fact that Headshop only supports her is really not that important as what else do you want to put new heads on?

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12

  RedPhantom    ( ) ( posted at 8:49PM Sun, 13 September 2020  · @4399418

while the article says better third party options exist, it's possible that one of those options is being integrated into poser. It's been done before. And if that's the case, hopefully, it will support more than two models.


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  druc    ( ) ( posted at 7:00AM Mon, 14 September 2020  · @4399433

Thanks for the replies. They are greatly appreciated. From what I have read "FaceGen" seems to be the best option going forward for me. Unfortunately not at this time. There is an open ticket, for lack of a better phrase, on their web site to support alternate or custom figures. They also have an option, to quote "Integrate FaceGen technology into your software". This, like the existing Face room, would require FaceGen creating the option for that particular head geometry with naturally a cost per geometry. Cost per user on their web site for Genesis 1 and 2 is US$69.00 if you also want Genesis 3 and 4 it is US$139.00. Going on rumour more users use Daz, the price would be higher for Poser users. If they do develop a version of their system that will analyse the geometry of a head as a starting point, I can imagine the cost to the user would be exorbitant.


  druc    ( ) ( posted at 7:31AM Mon, 14 September 2020  · @4399435

Sorry, a slight correction, KeenTools Face builder is looking at supporting "custom heads" in the future not FaceGen.


  Letterworks    ( ) ( posted at 10:09AM Mon, 14 September 2020  · @4399443

Here's the thing, as I understand it support for new figures in the face room required being run thru software then was not SOLD along with Poser (the face room is an adaption of an older stand alone product) Without that software it's basically impossible or at least unpractical to try and adapt the Face room to new figures. So, since it only supports older figures that were part of older version of Poser, it really doesn't make much since to bloat the software with it going forward. Personally I hope this is an indication that Bondware is focusing on updating poser software and paying less attention to "Backward Compatibility", since having to constantly make EVERYTHING from Poser 3 forward work in POSER 11 / 12 is one of the main causes of Bloat in the software and memory issues, I'd be happy to see them start cutting loose the out dated crap.(boy I can't wait to see the flames I'll get for that statement, but I stand by it non-the-less)


  hborre    ( ) ( posted at 12:59PM Mon, 14 September 2020  · @4399462

No flame from me. I agree that it's about time to cut loose the impractical features and concentrate on the updating, upgrading, and improving Poser for everyone.


  nerd    ( ) ( posted at 7:04PM Tue, 15 September 2020  · @4399588

Poser unfortunately has a lot of cool features that don't work they way we expected them to. Face room is obviously one of those. The big problem with it is it places severe restrictions on the geometry of the figure's head. Figure's had to be made a specific way for them to ever work in the face room. There's another feature gone that I suspect you never missed. Universal poses. It was supposed to make a pose for one figure work on any other figure. Except, the figure had to have exactly the same hierarchy as the original Poser 5 reference figure. Again a feature that, while it may have been cool at one time, was really holding back progress.


  ockham    ( ) ( posted at 7:47AM Wed, 16 September 2020  · @4399607

@nerd, thanks for the clarification. Universal poses sort of halfway worked, but it wasn't really easier than just manually moving.

I hope you're going to fix some basic UI/UX problems like collapsing the hierarchy, and making keyboard actions always usable without having to click on display window.

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  BabaBozo    ( ) ( posted at 8:20AM Fri, 18 September 2020  · @4399767

I dunno, I love the Face Room and don't see the point of killing a useful feature which is already in the software.

I've investigated Headshop and Facegen quite a bit over the last few years and have never developed confidence in either company.

As example, I recently sent a polite note to the Headshop guy asking a few brief questions and inviting him to participate here in a thread I set up for that purpose. He sent me back a link to the sales page, and nothing else. As best I could tell the Facegen guy never participates even on the Daz forum, and his site looks to be from 1998. I've looked at all the sales materials from both companies numerous times, and come away unimpressed. It all looks tinkertoy cheeseball to me.

I get that it may be impossible to update the FaceRoom for new characters. Ok, I can live with that while I wait for professional solutions to arrive. But if the next version doesn't have the Face Room I won't be buying the upgrade.


  Letterworks    ( ) ( posted at 11:28AM Fri, 18 September 2020  · @4399777

@BabaBozo So basically what you are saying is that you are stuck at Poser 5 and don;t want any improvement, or at least stuck with Poser 5 figures and aren't interested in supporting the new figures?


  BabaBozo    ( ) ( posted at 12:39PM Fri, 18 September 2020  · @4399780

To revise my remarks, I think I'm more attached to what I wish the Face Room was capable of than what it actually can do. Or at least, what I can currently do with it.

I don't wish to be stuck at Poser 5 (I have 11.3), and would be happy to add photos to the faces of more advanced figures. I don't currently see a way to do that, and would be happy to be further educated. Whatcha got for me?


  Letterworks    ( ) ( posted at 1:46PM Fri, 18 September 2020  · @4399787

Thanks, I really was wondering, since I hear so much of people not wishing to move forward. As for the face room I have never actually gotten good results for it so I use GoZ to attempt, my limited efforts as morphing. Unfortunately as I said earlier there are technical reasons new figures can;t be added to the face room, and if it stuck at Poser 5 figures and levels I can see the thinking in off load code that just isn;t usable going forward I'm hoping this means faster operation in the other sections of the program and, at least, less memory attached to unused routines leaving more for actual work.


  RedPhantom    ( ) ( posted at 4:27PM Fri, 18 September 2020  · @4399794

you don't have to stick with poser 5 figures. Every human figure that comes with poser except LaFemme and L'Homme can use it. The concept of the face room is great. the implementation leaves a lot to be desired. A few have claimed they've used it successfully. I don't know if they just used the dials or if they managed to get a picture on a person.


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  BabaBozo    ( ) ( posted at 5:07PM Fri, 18 September 2020  · @4399797

The following Poser tutorial might be of assistance to some. It's 8+ hours long and covers every feature of Poser in extensive detail, including the Face Room. It's on a pay site, but they have a free trial which is long enough to watch and/or record the video.

https://learning.oreilly.com/videos/learning-poser-10/9781771371247

The Face Room part seemed pretty helpful, as it discussed how to edit the images in external photo editors both before and after Face Room processing. As example, if you cover up the nostrils in the original photo then you don't have to match up the nostrils in the photo and 3D video, which seems rather tricky. Same for ears. You can also clean up the final product produced by Face Room in an external image editor, and then reimport it.

I've been working on this and see that it helps, but I've yet to produce a head I'm happy with. Will keep working.

How about Headshop for La Femme/Homme? Anybody used it?

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/headshop-12-5-for-la-femme-and-lhomme/141059/


  BabaBozo    ( ) ( posted at 5:08PM Fri, 18 September 2020  · @4399799

RedPhantom said, "Every human figure that comes with poser except LaFemme and L'Homme can use it."

Thanks for posting this, as I wasn't aware. Helpful.


  hborre    ( ) ( posted at 8:24PM Fri, 18 September 2020  · @4399801

This is Sydney passed through the Face Room and spinning dials to make her look less than Sydney. As mentioned previously, the Face Room is only good for legacy figures. Trying to create a character from photographs is trickier and much more complicated if you do not have well-exposed images. On the another side of the coin, users try not to be too accurate in reproducing existing individuals because of the legal aspect and chances of lawsuits. At best, get it close and create your own textures.

Sydney_WonderWoman.jpg


  BabaBozo    ( ) ( posted at 6:56AM Sat, 19 September 2020  · @4399836

Thanks hborre. You've touched on some points I'd like to learn more about.

First, it hadn't occurred to me to do what you did above, start with an existing built-in character and create a new character from it. Duh! I'm not clear exactly how that works in the Face Room. If I loaded Sydney in the scene and then went to the Face Room her face would appear in the left viewer? Edit from there?

Yes, creating 3D faces from photos does seem tricky. It seems that will typically require careful work in an image editing app both before and after the Face Room transformation. I'm still holding out hope I can get this to work if I invest more time in learning the procedure.

How about Headshop for Poser? How might we find someone who has purchased that so we could get a review? The author doesn't post much in the way of before/after shots so I'm still waiting to be persuaded. Interested though.

Create one's own textures? Could you perhaps share a brief sentence or two about that?

Thanks as always.


  BabaBozo    ( ) ( posted at 7:04AM Sat, 19 September 2020  · @4399837

Oh dear, in looking more carefully at Headshop for Poser I see it's Windows only. Same for Facegen. That rules me out. Oh well, an option for most people.

They do make an old Headshop For Mac version, but it's DAZ only.

See why I like the Face Room? It appears to be my only option.


  Richard60    ( ) ( posted at 10:55AM Sat, 19 September 2020  · @4399858

The Face Room was put in with Poser 5 IIRC. Since then there has not been any work done on it. I am not an artist, I do programming and part of programming is to analyze the problem to create a correct solution. In essence the figures for the Face Room have groups assigned that are very like the Face Chips in La Femme. That is you can move the cheeks in and out, up and down and back and forth etc. As you have found you still have a lot of work to do in a photo editing program. So since La Femme has the chips and you can put her head UV into photoshop and apply the image that way the Face room becomes redundant. Also the Face Room can change the texture of the head, but does not have a way to apply it to the body. So you can make a Green Head on a Tan Body. Lots of work to take a head and make it a complete figure.

Add the fact the Poser team is trying to redo the internals of how a figure is handled, the Face Room uses very old processes that won't work with the new program so it will be a lot of work to make a very old room compatible and has been mentioned above there are other options that can give better results.

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12

  BabaBozo    ( ) ( posted at 5:37PM Sat, 19 September 2020  · @4399896

I get that it may be unrealistic to update the Face Room. But that doesn't equal a necessity to discard the Face Room. Happy to be further educated, but so far I see no other solution for Mac users.


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