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Would you like to tell the Poser 12 Development team something you would like to see added to Poser 12? Or a tool that already exist be improved upon? Tell us here!


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 Subject: I HAVE to say this, cannot sit on it any longer.

McGrandpa opened this issue on Sep 06, 2020 · 54 posts

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  McGrandpa    ( ) ( posted at 12:51AM Sun, 06 September 2020 

Poser (and Renderosity) are at a crossroads. A lot of us are elders now, we are not young. (Waves at Larry W.!) I just celebrated my 66th birthday, and am really amazed that I made it this far in Life. My injuries from work accidents, a car wreck, didn't put me under. My Cancer didn't kill me. But my Diabetes is honestly eating me alive, and that's just dreadful. I celebrated my birthday by building a new computer, and put it all inside my now 15 year old ATX case. Hey, it works a treat!
WHILE it was down and I was using my various smart phones, tablets and laptop to gather info and files on the fly, I came to a startling and clear image that really saddens me. I will skip the long diatribe and litany of data I collated to come to this conclusion, but by now, it is obvious to the entire world around us, but not to the inwardly involved here. It is simply this: IF POSER is not given the ability to read and use the DAZ "format", and to be able to USE up through the Genesis 8 Figures, it will simply dwindle into obscurity. I do not want to see this, but I truly believe now that the very person controlling the future OF Poser does. Politics stink. I want Poser to continue and thrive. It CAN, but not without a big dose of Popeye Spinach! That 'spinach' is the module needed to USE the DUF and Genesis 8, freely. The LaFemme/L'Homme Figures are great, PE is great, Maisie is fine, ALL are good Figures. But limited. LESS limited is the Genesis 8 Figure. And don't cajole me into trying the system of loading G8 into PP 2014 and PP 11. I KNOW and DO that. One damn article at a time. Not "freely using" by ANY means. And I DO mean Poser has to be able to FREELY use the DAZ format and the various file types that encompasses, but especially the Genesis 8 Figure. The Renderosity I know and have been a stolid customer of for a lot of years is ceasing to exist. It is swiftly becoming a DAZ ONLY site too. Various people have cited the need to change just to make a profit. Well well, how about that. POSER has to change as well. There is no other option, because the PEOPLE you need to buy and use Poser simply don't. DS isn't easier to use, but the content and styles it now uses that Poser cannot make the difference. -Do NOT moderate this post. If it is, this text will be cast worldwide..

I am Michael McCollum, THE McGrandpa. just another nobody that happens to love Poser.

My 66th Birthday PC Build (July 1, 2020) :  W10Pro x64, Octal Core RYZEN7 3700X 4.05 GHz, 64GB DDR4 RAM, GeForce GTX 1650 Super 4GB GDDR6, PP2014, PP 11, P12, PS-CS4 Extended.

McG.


  HartyBart    ( ) ( posted at 7:44AM Sun, 06 September 2020  · @4398747

If you want Genesis 8, go use Daz Studio. And stay there.


  hborre    ( ) ( posted at 9:38AM Sun, 06 September 2020  · @4398756

That's rather harsh.


  McGrandpa    ( ) ( posted at 10:52AM Sun, 06 September 2020  · @4398763

As I said, I want to use DAZ content in Poser. Period.

My 66th Birthday PC Build (July 1, 2020) :  W10Pro x64, Octal Core RYZEN7 3700X 4.05 GHz, 64GB DDR4 RAM, GeForce GTX 1650 Super 4GB GDDR6, PP2014, PP 11, P12, PS-CS4 Extended.

McG.


  adp001    ( ) ( posted at 12:47PM Sun, 06 September 2020  · @4398779

DAZ will not allow that Poser can read DAZ files. Under no circumstances. All DAZ has to do is sit back and wait for Poser to die. And probably Rendo with it.




  DexPac    ( ) ( posted at 6:11PM Sun, 06 September 2020  · @4398807

Being able to use DAZ content in Poser would be ideal but Poser needs more content in general. There's currently no incentive for someone just getting into the hobby to pay $100-$200 on Poser 11 when DAZ is free and has way more content available for it. There's also currently no real incentive for vendors to create content for Poser. The only reason I've stuck around so long is because I'm too stubborn to learn a new program.

adp001 posted at 6:06PM Sun, 06 September 2020 - #4398779

"DAZ will not allow that Poser can read DAZ files. Under no circumstances."

Is this an actual fact or just an assumption? Is DAZ legally preventing Renderosity from using .duf files in Poser?


  McGrandpa    ( ) ( posted at 7:12PM Sun, 06 September 2020  · @4398809

It appears to be an aspersion to me.

My 66th Birthday PC Build (July 1, 2020) :  W10Pro x64, Octal Core RYZEN7 3700X 4.05 GHz, 64GB DDR4 RAM, GeForce GTX 1650 Super 4GB GDDR6, PP2014, PP 11, P12, PS-CS4 Extended.

McG.


  wolf359    ( ) ( posted at 1:05PM Mon, 07 September 2020  · @4398856

Thats rather harsh

Reality often is.😌

Harty Bart is correct.

leave the little comfort bubble of the poserverse and you can have free access to the"golden unicorn" or stay in the bubble and be happy that bondware has saved poser from oblivion.🤗

DAZ will not allow that Poser >can read DAZ files. Under no >circumstances

This is complete fiction.🙄

Anyone can make a plugin that reads the .duf format

A single developer named Thomas larson did for Blender with his FREE "Diffeomorphic" plugin that loads ALL genesis models and poses& body animation as well as props directly from your Daz content library.

it is far superior to Daz's official So-called " Blender bridge" that only export the G8 Figures and nothing else

screen.png



MY WEBSITE

MY IMDB LISTING




  McGrandpa    ( ) ( posted at 1:23PM Mon, 07 September 2020  · @4398857

I refuse the slavery of the DAZ-verse and their pervasive content manglement system and the DAZ Install Mangler that are REQUIRED FOR DS TO OPERATE (DS must LOG IN or load, import and other functions are inoperable). I am so sorry for you trapped DS users, especially the long time users that have no inkling this statement is true.
So I won't be replying any further. I didn't start the thread to turn into a mud slinging contest. I did start it to state what I believe a real NEED for Poser and I stand on it still.

My 66th Birthday PC Build (July 1, 2020) :  W10Pro x64, Octal Core RYZEN7 3700X 4.05 GHz, 64GB DDR4 RAM, GeForce GTX 1650 Super 4GB GDDR6, PP2014, PP 11, P12, PS-CS4 Extended.

McG.


  wolf359    ( ) ( posted at 2:19PM Mon, 07 September 2020  · @4398866

and the DAZ Install Mangler that are REQUIRED FOR DS TO OPERATE (DS must LOG IN or load, import and other functions are inoperable). I am so sorry for you trapped DS users, especially the long time users that have no >inkling this statement is true.

More fiction.🙄

Before I left the Daz Eco-system For Iclone/CC3 I created ALL of my own Clothing content and still do for the CC3 figures😌

Sure the DS install manager was running idle in the background in case I wanted to buy/Install something But my main production machines are air gapped from the internet so I cant install from the DS install manager anyway

I ran DS 4.8 for four years with no internet on that particular PC and My new 2020 PC with DS 4.12 is not connected to the internet either🤔

Poser 11 has to regularly connect to the internet yes?? so paying $200 USD plus mandatory internet service is not "Slavery" 🤪

Poser does not need genesis 8.... you guys have LF&LH ..be grateful to Bondware.🤗



MY WEBSITE

MY IMDB LISTING




  Miss B    ( ) ( posted at 5:40PM Mon, 07 September 2020 · edited on 5:41PM Mon, 07 September 2020 · @4398882

McGrandpa posted at 6:29PM Mon, 07 September 2020 - #4398857

I refuse the slavery of the DAZ-verse and their pervasive content manglement system and the DAZ Install Mangler that are REQUIRED FOR DS TO OPERATE (DS must LOG IN or load, import and other functions are inoperable).

WHAT?!?! That must be something new, because it wasn't necessary when DIM was first created. I know because back when I was still using DS, I was on the DIM beta team, and that was NOT an option. Then again, I came back to Poser and stopped updating my DS once DS 4.0 Pro was introduced, so this must be something with the newer versions of DS, because it was not done back then.

I only use DIM, and only ever used DIM, except when beta testing, for downloading because I can download a bunch of files at once. But I ALWAYS manually installed my products from DAZ. It's always been my preferred method of installing 3D content, but for me DIM was good for downloading, because I could set it up, and then walk away to do something else until it was finished downloading. I never load it up for any other reason.

Oh wait, now I get it . . . it's not DIM, it's the newer DAZCentral that must be doing this. That IS new, so that's why I never saw anything like that.

_______________

OK . . . Where's my chocolate?

Butterfly Dezignz


  McGrandpa    ( ) ( posted at 8:02PM Mon, 07 September 2020  · @4398894

Sorry, I started this thread for a purpose, will leave this now to that purpose. the need POSER has, for its survival.

If I could do it, I would LOCK this thread with that first post, and delete the rest. But I am not a moderator, nor anything but a LONG standing customer and occasional PITA.

Jenn Blake, I insist you do THAT for the sake of Poser. LOCK this thread with only the original post showing. Thank you.

My 66th Birthday PC Build (July 1, 2020) :  W10Pro x64, Octal Core RYZEN7 3700X 4.05 GHz, 64GB DDR4 RAM, GeForce GTX 1650 Super 4GB GDDR6, PP2014, PP 11, P12, PS-CS4 Extended.

McG.


  3D-Mobster    ( ) ( posted at 10:22PM Mon, 07 September 2020 · edited on 10:32PM Mon, 07 September 2020 · @4398900

Sure that is one solution, even though I don't think it's the optimal solution. I wish that these companies would support each other rather than "fighting", but let's be honest the chance of that happening is pretty slim.

To be honest, I think people should spend less time pointing fingers at Daz, and instead point them at Poser. Hardly anything have been done by them to compete against Daz when it comes to content, but rather they have relied on them supplying the main characters for them, for a long time. If you look at the last many releases, Poser have pretty much released with the same old characters since Poser 4 or 5? They then added some new characters, which were pretty buggy and nowhere near the standard that people expect from characters. So not only do the majority of people not find them attractive, but when they at the same time are not really working correctly, you are going to have a disaster, because people won't use them, content creators won't care to make stuff for them, which mean that the characters are pretty much dead on arrival.

And honestly, the only one you can blame for this is those that makes Poser, that they apparently, for whatever unknown reason, don't really understand how important it is, that characters they release meet or even surpass people's expectations. If they don't, people simply won't care about them.

There are so many talented people capable of creating realistic 3d humans, I simply don't believe that they can't hire someone to make one.

image.png

Hossein Diba is a very talented 3D character artist, currently working as Lead Character sculptor at WWE.

image.png

This beautiful 3D fan art of Daenerys Targaryen the Khaleesi by Baolang Zhang is a real time character rendered in Unreal Engine 4.

image.png

This spot-on 3D likeness model of actress Kristen Steward was created by Hyun Kyung using Zbrush and 3ds Max and rendered in Vray.

image.png

3D artist Dan Roarty, lead character artist at Microsoft, created this hyper realistic model of his grandmother. Dan used Maya to create the basic shape then sculpted and textured Nana in Mubox, gave her hair using Shave and a Haircut and rendered her in Vray. All the specular maps were created using a the Knald software.

Dan Roarty has worked for LucasArts on Star Wars, as well as for Crystal Dynamics where he and Kam Yu created the new Lara Croft character for the ‘Rise of the Tomb Raider’.

It took me 5 minutes to find these, it can't be so difficult to contact someone that are extremely good at character design and pay them to make a character. Instead of them keep being a step behind Daz and either trying to rely on their characters or releasing half buggy unattractive characters, combined with outdated ones that are 10 or 15 years old, or how old they are? Its not going to cut it.


  3D-Mobster    ( ) ( posted at 10:26PM Mon, 07 September 2020  · @4398901

McGrandpa posted at 5:24AM Tue, 08 September 2020 - #4398894

Sorry, I started this thread for a purpose, will leave this now to that purpose. the need POSER has, for its survival.

If I could do it, I would LOCK this thread with that first post, and delete the rest. But I am not a moderator, nor anything but a LONG standing customer and occasional PITA.

Jenn Blake, I insist you do THAT for the sake of Poser. LOCK this thread with only the original post showing. Thank you.

Don't think you should lock it. People will always complain and try to defend Poser against Daz, it have been like that for very long. It need to be possible to discuss these things in a mature manner. Just ignore those people that can't be constructive.


  wolf359    ( ) ( posted at 7:58AM Tue, 08 September 2020  · @4398916

Jenn Blake, I insist you do THAT for the sake of Poser. LOCK this thread with only the original post showing. Thank you.

McG.

Make you youtube video of your rant and select "do not not allow comments"

It wont get you any closer to native genesis 8 support in poser but at least you wont have to read people explain to you why your canting demand is NEVER going happen.😆

Bondware has already invested the future of poser figure Dev in LF&LH.

End of story 😌

if LF&LH are not up to your standards or lack content etc etc use V4/M4.

or use the Willdial script to force fit a G3/8 into poser or some other partial solution

All of the other third party figures are dead or dying (or aborted after six years of development in the case of "venus & Orion" by Ambient shade)

These are your only options if you refuse to venture out of the poser comfort bubble and use another program such as Daz studio or Reallusion CC3 which converts ALL genesis(1,2,3,8) figures to native Iclone Avatars🤔



MY WEBSITE

MY IMDB LISTING




  jibicoco    ( ) ( posted at 9:25AM Tue, 08 September 2020  · @4398922

Poser 11 has to regularly connect to the internet yes?? so paying $200 USD plus mandatory internet service is not "Slavery" 🤪

yes, in fact it's a real problem !


  ader    ( ) ( posted at 4:04PM Tue, 08 September 2020  · @4398960

Well, we need to see what Poser12 is like before we can throw too much mud at Poser/Bondware, but it would be good if we had at least an inkling that Poser12 was in avid development and new things would be coming soon in addition to bug-fixes.

Heck, why not have a system similar to that which Unity has for users to report issues and vote for feature requests. Why not a public roadmap? Or a declaration of intent for the focus of the future of Poser? I've kind of almost stopped using Poser as I personally do not believe Bondware will make a Mac version of Poser12, especially an Apple Silicon / ARM version.

Poser has unfortunately always been full of bugs. I spent many months using Poser in the 1990s creating many animations and compositing them in After Effects. Some of the bugs present then are still present!

Daz3D has the "adult" renderers on board down with the best "adult" content and those users I suspect will account for a lot of content purchases. My personal main area of interest is primarily horror (zombies etc) and I have to admit the genesis content available in those types of genres is far better than Poser content.

There's a lot of nice content for Daz3D and most people would rather not pay for a program. It's the world we live in. Especially given that Poser comes with so much ancient low-quality content. Software is all free or subscription-based, just look at mobile gaming, games are free but you have to buy in-game content: this is the scenario that Daz saw coming and took advantage of.

I find Daz3D a horrible program to use, so have barely touched it given Poser is so intuitive. I'm the sort of person who would rather pay for a better program but I feel rather alone with that preference.

Maybe Bondware should pay someone to create a duf plugin if they can't do it themselves. It's either chase genesis compatibility (which I can't see happening) or carve out their own niche, but what is that niche without content? As it stands Poser needs to leap-frog DAZ somehow to survive. I suspect Bondware doesn't have pockets deep enough to fund enough content-creators to create content for the newer Poser figures to sustain Poser long term.

Instead of Genesis/Duf support, one thing that could make a massive difference for Poser would be the ability to re-use V4 content on LF (skin textures and clothes/props). However, this would need to work in conjunction with a system that auto fits skins, clothes and props to the underlying figure with no poke-through ever. ever.

Poser has a history of implementing half decent features that get neglected and unused as they are not as easy to use as the original base Poser program. e.g. the Hair room, why did this not ship with a host of templates hairstyles set to go? the animation features; has anyone tried to make their own walk or crawl cycle themselves manually in Poser? Or a fight sequence?

Now if Poser12 had a new system where a figure had actual bones, cartilage, muscles, and skin on top etc. so muscles could flex and ripple, skin could be layered and tear, lips could tremble, tears could fill eyes, and blood could flow from wounds all with the hyper-realism and the ease of use Poser has always had then we might be in business, but thinking a slightly better version of the technology that has been out for decades will see Poser keep kind-of working for an ever-dwindling audience in amateur circles.

The newsletters that get sent out "showcase" what can only be termed as work that wouldn't have impressed in the 1990s.

Poser is capable of lovely renders, I particularly used to like using the Reality plugin as it had such good results with minimal fuss or learning curve. Bondware should show-case good work in their newsletters, but I guess it's too few and far between.


  ader    ( ) ( posted at 5:31AM Thu, 10 September 2020  · @4399078

Nice to see a newsletter about Poser12 arrive today, hoping for more info soon.


  m_rubensson    ( ) ( posted at 11:24AM Fri, 11 September 2020 · edited on 11:32AM Fri, 11 September 2020 · @4399248

This is just 'general input', my 2p... I often found myself thinking "I would have liked figures to be a little simpler, while still retaining the creativity".

Don't get me wrong - I liked Poser. This is not a criticism, at all. Poser and Daz (and iClone, and Blender etc.) are all good in their ways. But my brain can't keep up with all the massive amounts of menus and options. I have a full time job and when I'm finished in the evening, the day is over.

What I really enjoyed in PPro 2014 was making (a few) comics. I wasn't efficient, but the comics rendering was really cool. Street scenes were difficult since they involve many figures.

Would have been nice to have a SIMPLE "clothes creator" (and simpler figures, maybe more like the Second Life avatars or even The Sims. These advanced near-photorealistic images are very impressive, but I'd like to do more storywriting. So, simpler figures, freely posable in a local 3D space would have been great – without being forced to "play a game" (Sims) or "have an online account in a virtual world" (SL) or "first learning Blender" (ouch!) ... or "first saving up for 3DSMax AND becoming an expert in 3DSMax" (ouch again) ...

The type of "simpler" offline 3D scene builder/3D comic storyboard software I'm imagining is not likely to materialize. Poser was among the best among the ones that were available. It was still complex (for me), but just about workable.

I'll go throw a frisbee for my dog now. In the real universe. And practice my pen and paper drawing skills.

cheers... :)


  ronaldknights    ( ) ( posted at 11:14AM Mon, 14 September 2020  · @4399447

I've been a Poser owner since 1999. I strayed away from Poser for a few years; I returned when Bondware bought Poser. I still have Poser 10, and am waiting for a good reason to upgrade. Now we're awaiting Poser Pro 12. For me, DAZ always provided the necessary content to make Poser usable or desirable. Bondware, or someone, needs to ramp up the Poser content in order to make Poser worth my investment.


  sschneew    ( ) ( posted at 10:46AM Wed, 16 September 2020  · @4399619

My 2c. Poser is my addiction that I can't seem to shake, but it is the Daz models that do it for me. If I hadn't have had M4, I don't think I would have stuck around. I don't have the capacity to model (well), and I don't have the patience to rig. I like the simplicity of composing and rendering pre-formed content. I've moved on to G1 and G2 simply for variety since they come with operational baggage in Poser. I've purchased LH&LF to support the artists, but frankly don't like them. From day 1 I came to realize that none of the Poser models did what I wanted, but the Daz models did. Since then I've slowly acquired a massive collection of content, which even on massive sale is certainly more than the license cost of Poser. I've considered moving to Daz Studio a number of times, I've tried to use Blender, but the simplicity of Poser keeps me using it to accomplish my small goals. I will certainly buy Poser in October, again to support the team, but I continue to doubt myself. Is there an easier workflow using those other tools with the content that I like? If I invest time in a new workflow and someone's free-ware, will the rug be pulled out from under me later?


  BabaBozo    ( ) ( posted at 7:58AM Fri, 18 September 2020  · @4399765

McGrandpa writes, "It is simply this: IF POSER is not given the ability to read and use the DAZ "format", and to be able to USE up through the Genesis 8 Figures, it will simply dwindle into obscurity. "

This seems to be a widely held opinion. Having discussed this a few places, best I can tell, it's not going to happen so....

I was encouraged to discover this model in the free section of the forum yesterday:

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2936022

noname.png

I'm hardly an expert on such things, but to this Poser newbie this model seems a quality product. It seems professional constructed, everything you need is nicely organized all in one place, installs easily and correctly (even for me!) and is otherwise generally excellent.

If I owned Poser I would hire this artist to create a dozen new characters for the next version of Poser, which to my newbie eyes seems generally superior to all the characters currently shipping with Poser. (La Femme/Homme are perhaps more technically sophisticated?)

Point being, instead of wringing our hands about Daz content, perhaps a better solution is to identify the best artists and put them on the Poser payroll. To the degree Poser depends on Daz it's future will always be uncertain. Seems wiser to forget about Daz and focus on developing Poser characters that the market finds compelling.

Why not just use Daz where the most popular content already exists? Because, imho, Daz software stinks, it's not even close to Poser in terms of user friendliness. Same for the company. I wasted 3-4 month trying to animate in Daz. I accomplished more in the first few days in Poser.

There's no law of nature which prevents Poser characters from being just as good or better than Daz characters. Rendo just needs to find and hire the best artists. Hopefully that project is already underway.


  BabaBozo    ( ) ( posted at 8:08AM Fri, 18 September 2020  · @4399766

A user writes, " There's currently no incentive for someone just getting into the hobby to pay $100-$200 on Poser 11 when DAZ is free and has way more content available for it."

As someone who fits the description of a new user, my incentive to spend $80 on Poser instead of continuing to use Daz for free is that Poser is much better software.

One solution to this problem is for members to shift our focus to animation, where Poser really shines, blowing Daz out of the water. If we clog this site with animation galleries then new users will naturally want to know how they can do that too.

And if they try Daz animation like I did, they will soon discover Daz is not the animation solution. And if they look at pro level software options for animation, they will soon discover that such options are VERY expensive.


  ronaldknights    ( ) ( posted at 12:19PM Fri, 18 September 2020  · @4399779

What good is having "better software," if you can't get better content. The Poser attitude seems to be that Victoria 4 is all we need.


  BabaBozo    ( ) ( posted at 12:53PM Fri, 18 September 2020  · @4399782

As I understand it, Daz has the best content and Poser has the best software, so there's no obvious solution.

I tried Daz software, and am done with that. I would like to use the latest Daz content in Poser, but so far that doesn't seem too likely. So...

For now I'm making myself happy with existing Poser content. This is probably easier for me as I'm new to Poser and thus more easily satisfied. The free character I posted about above seems pretty darn good, so I'll work with that for awhile. I really don't have huge complaints with the other characters either. Over the longer run, I assume that Rendo sees everything we see about the content situation and I hope they are willing and able to invest in creating some more compelling content.

This might help? If I understand correctly (I may not) most Daz and Poser users are not animating their characters. Especially in Poser, that seems a shame. Point being, if the characters were actually doing something interesting, and not just standing still, perhaps the aesthetic quality of the characters would be of somewhat less importance?

Perhaps I'll become more demanding about image quality once I master animation, which isn't going to happen any time soon. It's remarkably easy to animate in Poser, but not remarkably easy to do quality animation anywhere.


  sschneew    ( ) ( posted at 11:50AM Sun, 20 September 2020 · edited on 11:51AM Sun, 20 September 2020 · @4399933

I had Friday off and I spent the weekend playing around with 1) DAZ, 2) Thomas Larson's DAZ to Blender importer, then 3) Blender armature, posing, materials, and rendering. I really don't like DAZ - but this appears to be a preference. I came across more than one forum where they trash Poser and praise DAZ. I think I could get used to DAZ, but it seems limited in comparison to Poser. ( This opinion is probably biased. ) Blender on the other hand is pretty incredible - but sooo complex. I spent hours watching videos explaining how to use the DAZ and Blender interfaces. I spent at least the same amount of time fighting with DAZ's stupid content manager (for all of Poser's library issues, DAZ makes them seem quite tolerable). I still haven't spent enough time to figure out how to use Blender's library/linking method of sharing characters, props, and materials. I didn't waste any time with DAZ renders, but spent a ton of time converting transported materials to Blender's cycles engine, then fine tuning.

The DAZ converter is pretty incredible and robust on its own. That Thomas Larson wrote and donated this freeware is quite remarkable. It allows you to export a DAZ scene (character or props), then import them into Blender along with the rig/armature. Then there are tons of additional import options for morphs, etc. It sounds great, but the complexity of converting them to the "Blender way" is very difficult. In doing this, I had to recognize the Herculean efforts of the Poser or DAZ programmers to make things work between the two software packages. It's not just getting bone and morph weights ported correctly. A simple smile is a combination of facial morphs and bone movements, which all have to be tied together - which is highly custom to the software you are using. I haven't explored Thomas' work enough to see if he has also ported that complexity. For my experiment I only used simple facial morphs. I couldn't get Blender's armature/bones to effectively morph my character consistently (just ignorance of how it works/its complexity). In addition, (I believe that) Blender has no concept of conforming clothes. You could manually rig all the clothes' bones to be constrained by the figure's bones, but I think it is expected that you bake down your clothes into a single character (Like what they did in Poser Pro Game Dev Version). Thomas has built in options for this and has a blog on mesh simplification, so he is probably thinking along these lines and targeting efficiencies for his final output.

I love the filmic color management of Blenders cycles engine. It is very realistic lighting with high dynamic range. (Watch this video from Blender Guru for an explanation.) So I explored porting directly from Poser to Blender to use the cycles engine there. This is possible, but with a lot of work. The alembic format ports meshes efficiently, but you need a way to apply sets of blender materials once you pull them up in Blender. This solves some things, using Poser for its strengths in posing and managing complex morphs and rigs, but presents problems with setting up some python scripts to manage materials efficiently. And you still are limited by characters available in Poser.

So, I'm waiting for a month to see what the Poser guys do with the latest cycles engine. If they include Filmic-log color management, it would certainly eliminate any current need for me to use Blender. On the other hand, if I could learn this much Blender in a weekend perhaps its worth the effort to go all-in. Moving content would be a pain, and would certainly be a gradual effort. However, there is a thriving Blender community (more than thriving) and way more content out there to have fun with.

Justin-based character from Genesis series sample attached. Very simple Blender lighting, and a quick run through to tune materials, and a few ported facial morphs.

aaron.blend.png


  wolf359    ( ) ( posted at 4:51PM Wed, 23 September 2020 · edited on 4:56PM Wed, 23 September 2020 · @4400155

@Bababozo

Poser's animation tool set has not been functionally updated in nearly 20 years but at least its tools( weak as they are) are native to the program.

Daz leased their graphmate/keymate/aniMate plugins from a company that no longer exists and show no interest in updating them and their new so called IK system is a cruel joke.🙄

The Thomas Larsons "Diffeomorphic"exporter is great for the still render portrait/pinup crowd to render in Blender cycles but does not export morph based animation to Blender thus offers no advantage over rendering your still render portraits/pinups in Daz Iray 😌

Both Poser and Daz studio are far inferior to,Renderosity marketplace vendor's, Reallusion with their Iclone Pro software, and Reallusions Character creator 3 software is a better character system than Daz studio as it has superior clothing rigging system for vendors 😊

IMHO anyone truly serious about REALTIME Character animation and quality REALTIME rendering and content creation, should be looking at both Iclone/CC3 & Blender.

I am a clothing content creator & animated filmmaker.

I recently created a 10 minute video tutorial showing how well Iclone/CC3 and Blender work together.

https://youtu.be/igv--GMiUq4

All of the Character clothing armor& weapons in this video were created in Blender for the Iclone CC3 base figures. https://youtu.be/igv--GMiUq4

screen cap graph.JPG



MY WEBSITE

MY IMDB LISTING




  sschneew    ( ) ( posted at 8:43AM Thu, 24 September 2020  · @4400178

IClone is an interesting option. FWIW, I see that DAZ has a Blender bridge now, too. https://www.daz3d.com/daz-to-blender-bridge supporting ported armature.

It is interesting that a common denominator here is Blender. With its revamped 2.8 interface (which is now actually understandable), it seems to be picking up more steam than ever.


  druc    ( ) ( posted at 7:00AM Wed, 28 October 2020  · @4402333

I just had a look at this thread (I must admit I gave up a short way into it) and I am amazed by the Daz versus Poser flames. Daz is a content seller, that is their business model. There maybe and probably is lots of "politics" behind the scenes but I am not interested. If Poser/Renderosity wanted to code into Poser to read Daz formats and design Poser to use them, why would Daz object, after all, it would mean more content sales. They Give Daz3d away for free so they can sell content. Selling more content suits them. If they can build a bigger customer base why wouldn't they.


  ader    ( ) ( posted at 8:23AM Thu, 29 October 2020  · @4402406

Well, I must admit it's nice to know I was wrong about a Mac version of Poser12, I just hope it will support Apple Silicon Macs when they start shipping and in the short term at the very least, Big Sur.

I'm intrigued about the new SuperFly advances.

p.s. yes 3d-mobster, the examples you've shown are what people expect from 3D nowadays. I find even 8k texture maps limiting.


  thoennes    ( ) ( posted at 12:05AM Sat, 31 October 2020  · @4402558

The better solution for WINDOWS users :)

(Of which I'm not. In various VMs, sure. But in my RM? No thank you.)

wolf359 posted at 3:52PM Sat, 31 October 2020 - #4400155

@Bababozo

Poser's animation tool set has not been functionally updated in nearly 20 years but at least its tools( weak as they are) are native to the program.

Daz leased their graphmate/keymate/aniMate plugins from a company that no longer exists and show no interest in updating them and their new so called IK system is a cruel joke.🙄

The Thomas Larsons "Diffeomorphic"exporter is great for the still render portrait/pinup crowd to render in Blender cycles but does not export morph based animation to Blender thus offers no advantage over rendering your still render portraits/pinups in Daz Iray 😌

Both Poser and Daz studio are far inferior to,Renderosity marketplace vendor's, Reallusion with their Iclone Pro software, and Reallusions Character creator 3 software is a better character system than Daz studio as it has superior clothing rigging system for vendors 😊

IMHO anyone truly serious about REALTIME Character animation and quality REALTIME rendering and content creation, should be looking at both Iclone/CC3 & Blender.

I am a clothing content creator & animated filmmaker.

I recently created a 10 minute video tutorial showing how well Iclone/CC3 and Blender work together.

https://youtu.be/igv--GMiUq4

All of the Character clothing armor& weapons in this video were created in Blender for the Iclone CC3 base figures. https://youtu.be/igv--GMiUq4

screen cap graph.JPG


  Mec4D    ( ) ( posted at 5:54PM Sun, 01 November 2020  · @4402722

The success of future Poser are not more the figures , I work with both programs and with Poser for the last 22 years. Sadly the rendering quality and material room land behind the banana republic , it is not more the standard and other free softwares offer better and free solutions , the market is huge and it is not going to be better . Proper render engine quality and material room will attract new users as everything is about the visual aspect of the art work, no matter it is cartoon, stylized or realistic . Personally I don't like G8 , for me it stopped at G2-3 and for many others too . The 3D market is sinking If Poser12 bring back the standard for both rendering and materials it gonna help a lot , bringing D|S content not really , and I really did not liked the last idea when it was possible , clumpy and bad . Poser need own true content to be something great again and not hanging or be dependent on other softwares , that's how it gonna be killed I still use poser for a lot of stuff but I stopped rendering with it in 2015 and many great people and companies did the same . You can get your content today everywhere . So I do really have a great expectations with the new version that hopefully bring me back for a full time again , and if it fails, it gonna die soon even if it was for free . The secret of Poser success was in creation , keeping people creative and busy finding amazing new ways to make their art better and share with others to follow, that's how community stays strong and support each other without politics or taking a side . Crossing my fingers and waiting !


  McGrandpa    ( ) ( posted at 4:57AM Mon, 02 November 2020  · @4402757

Mec4D typed: " The secret of Poser success was in creation , keeping people creative and busy finding amazing new ways to make their art better and share with others to follow, that's how community stays strong and support each other without politics or taking a side . Crossing my fingers and waiting !"

I agree with your sentence wholeheartedly!

`

My 66th Birthday PC Build (July 1, 2020) :  W10Pro x64, Octal Core RYZEN7 3700X 4.05 GHz, 64GB DDR4 RAM, GeForce GTX 1650 Super 4GB GDDR6, PP2014, PP 11, P12, PS-CS4 Extended.

McG.


  RobZhena    ( ) ( posted at 12:43PM Thu, 05 November 2020  · @4403477

Everyone has the Pro version now. I see why some users don't want to spend time rigging. But the fact is that you can get most DAZ content to work in Poser with Poser native figures. With head shop and body morphs, for your own personal use, you can recreate any commercial character from any vendor. You can buy Genesis 3/8 clothes and hair for peanuts during DAZ's constant sales, load them piece by piece in DS, export them as obj, and then import them into Poser and rig them for La Femme or whomever. Or, if you stay away from Poser 12, you can import DUF files directly with D3D's DSON Importer python script, pose it to a Poser native figure, go to the fitting room, and create a new Poser cr2. You can use the morph brush on items imported that way. The only things that haven't worked are some dForce and strand-based hairs. (I notice some Daz vendors are going back to rigged hair.) So, if you are truly desperate for Daz content, put in a little more effort and it's yours.


  McGrandpa    ( ) ( posted at 1:43PM Thu, 05 November 2020  · @4403488

Yes, this has been doable for quite a while now. The BAD part now is I cannot use DS without having that damnable CMS/DIM nastiness RUNNING. So it is not installed. Do we have a usable way to do this NOW, without running DS? I think we will have to get the DSON interpreter for Poser working in P12 to get any of that. Including the Figures we DID get into PP11. With the Genesis 2, Genesis 3 and even Genesis 8 Figures functioning in PP11. The CR2's will load into P12, but are messed up. Non functional. I still believe that the longer term survival of Poser will necessitate Poser being able to USE Genesis through 8, and DAZ content, directly. But a certain 'authority' has stomped all over that idea. It says that "will never happen". That's a damn bad thing to say.

My 66th Birthday PC Build (July 1, 2020) :  W10Pro x64, Octal Core RYZEN7 3700X 4.05 GHz, 64GB DDR4 RAM, GeForce GTX 1650 Super 4GB GDDR6, PP2014, PP 11, P12, PS-CS4 Extended.

McG.


  RobZhena    ( ) ( posted at 3:22PM Thu, 05 November 2020 · edited on 3:23PM Thu, 05 November 2020 · @4403512

When you launch DS, you can select "work offline" and you never have to have anything logged into DAZ. All DAZ products have a manual download option. New python means DSON esta muerto in P12.


  Richard60    ( ) ( posted at 8:14PM Thu, 05 November 2020  · @4403556

Let's see if this will help some of you understand the problem with converting DSON

DAZ owns DAZ Studio and the copyrights to that program. Which means they own how the program works.

When Poser 9 came out it lacked one thing that Genesis needs in order to be usable. And that thing is Sub-Division. Poser 9 cannot Sub-Divide a figure.

However when DAZ first released the DSON plug -in for Poser all of a sudden Poser 9 Could Sub-Divide (but only the Genesis figure). Anybody want to take a guess as to why this was now possible? The answer is that the DSON plug-in contains a mini-version of DAZ Studio. Poser is used to send dial commands to the mini-Studio and that program then takes the Genesis mesh and creates a mesh that Poser then displays.

And there is the problem NOBODY but DAZ can write the code for Studio since they own the copyright. Without that code all the neat things you think Genesis can do, it can't. Basically it is fairly simple to write a converter program to take the DAZ files and return them back to OBJ where they came from. The problem is that it is a static OBJ with none of the Bells and Whistles you want it to have.. It is even possible to try and convert the Weight maps, although that can be hard as it will be a best guess and the results will be close at best. However the fancy things like Auto-Fit won't make it. And it is things like this that you want and won't have.

Poser 5, 6, 7, 8, Poser Pro 9 (2012), 10 (2014), 11, 12

  Mec4D    ( ) ( posted at 9:14PM Thu, 05 November 2020  · @4403560

I agree with you partially here , DSON is not what everyone wanted to have in first place , it was a second and only choice for DAZ to bring stuff back to Poser , I talk with both software owners and programmers at the time and I know the truth from the first hand and not based on rumors. I will tell you only one thing, former Poser owners decided to make changes in the codes that allowed DSON working in Poser the way it did, that was all they wanted to do for a very good reason for them at that time. The people from yesterday are no more here , we dealing today with a new owners of both software, so I guess it is time to end the old story once and for all and focus on what is now. There is a lot of possibilities to bring Genesis to Poser , but you dealing with patents and copyrights issues , you are not even allowed by law to copy weight maps from Genesis and use it on another Humanoid Figure outside D|S. It is pretty limited , and the truth is that today, only DAZ can decide where they want Genesis to shine, and a little spider told me it will never happen. You can still do your programming and anything you want for personal usage , but once it reach the public you will have lawyers on your neck and they not joking.

Why not making amazing looking figures for Poser ? what is the problem , Genesis8 have the worse texturing jobs and modeling since G3, I understand the technical side of GENESIS system that is not easy to copy and it very good. But I believe once we get micropoly displacement and adaptive subdivision we can do something Poser never saw before , at last on the visual side for now and the progress will continue .

No time to grieve for roses when the forests are burning !

Richard60 posted at 9:43PM Thu, 05 November 2020 - #4403556

Let's see if this will help some of you understand the problem with converting DSON

DAZ owns DAZ Studio and the copyrights to that program. Which means they own how the program works.

When Poser 9 came out it lacked one thing that Genesis needs in order to be usable. And that thing is Sub-Division. Poser 9 cannot Sub-Divide a figure.

However when DAZ first released the DSON plug -in for Poser all of a sudden Poser 9 Could Sub-Divide (but only the Genesis figure). Anybody want to take a guess as to why this was now possible? The answer is that the DSON plug-in contains a mini-version of DAZ Studio. Poser is used to send dial commands to the mini-Studio and that program then takes the Genesis mesh and creates a mesh that Poser then displays.

And there is the problem NOBODY but DAZ can write the code for Studio since they own the copyright. Without that code all the neat things you think Genesis can do, it can't. Basically it is fairly simple to write a converter program to take the DAZ files and return them back to OBJ where they came from. The problem is that it is a static OBJ with none of the Bells and Whistles you want it to have.. It is even possible to try and convert the Weight maps, although that can be hard as it will be a best guess and the results will be close at best. However the fancy things like Auto-Fit won't make it. And it is things like this that you want and won't have.


  McGrandpa    ( ) ( posted at 9:42PM Thu, 05 November 2020  · @4403563

Then burn it ALL. Damnable PEOPLE !!!

My 66th Birthday PC Build (July 1, 2020) :  W10Pro x64, Octal Core RYZEN7 3700X 4.05 GHz, 64GB DDR4 RAM, GeForce GTX 1650 Super 4GB GDDR6, PP2014, PP 11, P12, PS-CS4 Extended.

McG.


  McGrandpa    ( ) ( posted at 9:44PM Thu, 05 November 2020  · @4403564

DS is unacceptable software. Poser has unacceptable FIGURES. And the Weilders of the SWORDS of Ownership shall ride their steeds into the River of Blood! Yea Let It ALL Burn! DONE

My 66th Birthday PC Build (July 1, 2020) :  W10Pro x64, Octal Core RYZEN7 3700X 4.05 GHz, 64GB DDR4 RAM, GeForce GTX 1650 Super 4GB GDDR6, PP2014, PP 11, P12, PS-CS4 Extended.

McG.


  Mec4D    ( ) ( posted at 1:36PM Fri, 06 November 2020  · @4403624

McG, can you tell me why you think Poser figures are unacceptable for you ? is that the look or rigging or what? Poser never had its original figures , they was from the gecko the work of outsiders, even Dork and Posette was made by early DAZ team before they split from Zygote Personally I don't like the look after the Era of V & M , wrong anatomy or misfit faces and how it bends I don't even care after, and the majority thinks the same I found out that having too unique base figure is not a good idea as it is hard to change it totally using morphs due to exciting topology that focus too much on the specific look from the beginning , it is like a DNA in a family , they looks different but still you can tell they are a family.

But coming back to my question , what's the matter in your opinion ! ?


  MazinkaiserDX    ( ) ( posted at 4:18PM Fri, 06 November 2020  · @4403649

Personally, I think La Femme seems to be pretty good, my issue is that there is just much more stuff for Genesis figures and I already invested a lot on those, so even though I'm interested in Poser, it's just not realistic for me to invest as much on stuff for La Femme even if there was the same amount of stuff for her. Honestly, I don't even need the ability to get Genesis figures in Poser, they can just have a system like CC3 which would let me use most of my library while still using Poser native figures.


  TheAnimaGemini    ( ) ( posted at 2:14AM Tue, 10 November 2020  · @4404087

@Mec4D Thank you. It is so great to read some common sense nowadays. I honestly never understand this Gen to Poser thing. It is now some kind of obsession, no matter how many times they get explained that it is not on the Poser developer to decide if Gen goes into Poser or not. I use Poser since long. I use also DS , have invested a lot in Gen 2-8 products. I invested btw also in V4 a lot and don't even bother my self anymore with her. And people also like to forget how many xtra scripts, morphs from 3rd party creator was needed to make her bend and behave properly. LF is good, all she need is support and some small fixes ( have to admit her hand is awful , especially her thumb ) , but I don't think it is sooo difficult to fix this. And there is Dawn, soon Dawn 2 , which looks very promising .Personally, I am looking forward to what comes next in Poser and LF/Dawn development. And when I have the urge to use Genesis, I open up DS.

La vie est éternelle. L'amour est immortel.


  Mec4D    ( ) ( posted at 6:14PM Tue, 10 November 2020  · @4404156

@TheAnimaGemini to tell you the truth I always hated the DSON , working with it, rendering and making products for it . It never worked right for me . There is so much support for Genesis because there are simple way to make the products that supporting it . That attracted the creators. I did not used the new Poser figures yet since I did not upgraded it since Poser pro 2014. I just got the trial for Poser12 the other day and tested some PBR materials to see how it behave and render in SuperFly and the result was very good and very fast rendering and quality .I asked my question because there should be not big deal making Poser figure looking amazing, I was just thinking the rigging and the process may be not as good , hard to tell did not tested yet . I never saw DS or Poser the same way and what is in DS stay in DS or vice versa I think Poser finally moved in the right direction focusing on proper light and materials , other way even if you import Genesis, it will looks bad anyway and who want to pay for this. You wanna bridge ? it will never import the full genesis system into Poser, without all the goodies and tools it is worthless idea and make no sense. DAZ already realized with V2 and M2 that Poser can't do that the way they want it to do, and you can't just mixing codes together of 2 programs , and definitely no more today and will never happen . FBX import is your best friend for now. I understand you guys spent so much founds on the stuff .. and I understand but if you don't let go Genesis , Poser gonna be finish and now is the last bell to make some changes before it become a history of the past for good.

@MazinkaiserDX you got a point here , and very good one , no she don't looks human enough and much out of anatomical proportions on the body and face, I hope I did not offend anybody with this statement as I don't know who made this, same problems was with early figures, there was always something off you can't put your finger on but you just know. Our brain is setup to recognize it so well

My notifications here are still broken , so I may not replying straight away.. still waiting for the fixes


  TheAnimaGemini    ( ) ( posted at 1:56AM Wed, 11 November 2020  · @4404175

@Mec4D Could not agree more.I tested out the DSON , but don't liked it. Heavy , sometimes crashed and the result was not really great. What irritates me in the Poser community is the huge amount of negativeness . While in other communities, like DAZ, Blender, name them all, the new features, upgrades are well taken and where people are excited, make constructive critiques,suggestions, in the Poser community is everything painted dark and negative. I think this is sad. And you are right, if people don't let go Genesis, don't stop with this huge amount of negative comments , Poser will disappear. If they continue to blame vendors because no support anymore for Poser, but in another thread they admit that they will not buy anything new for Poser , LF/LH because huge runtimes with old stuff, this makes to me no sense. Why should vendors create stuff when people don't buy? Take the risk that maybe??? they will have good sales, but probably not. If the Poser community want that Poser survive, they will have to change their way of thinking. Positive, constructive critics, suggestions are always welcome. But not this hate and fury.

La vie est éternelle. L'amour est immortel.


  Mec4D    ( ) ( posted at 3:21PM Wed, 11 November 2020  · @4404251

@TheAnimaGemini exactly I can morph any Dawn or LF figure into anything I want even into any Genesis figure of my choice( the last only for personal usage) .. and I don't believe that is the issue, or maybe I am wrong , we will see soon enough .. ;)


  EClark1894    ( ) ( posted at 5:42AM Sun, 15 November 2020 · edited on 5:45AM Sun, 15 November 2020 · @4404685

ronaldknights posted at 5:41AM Sun, 15 November 2020 - #4399779

What good is having "better software," if you can't get better content. The Poser attitude seems to be that Victoria 4 is all we need. Other figures have come out and people do use them.

No, that appears to be YOUR attitude. I stopped using V4 almost 10 years ago. So did most people.


 Poser Content Directory


  EClark1894    ( ) ( posted at 5:51AM Sun, 15 November 2020  · @4404686

McGrandpa posted at 5:47AM Sun, 15 November 2020 - #4403564

DS is unacceptable software. Poser has unacceptable FIGURES. And the Weilders of the SWORDS of Ownership shall ride their steeds into the River of Blood! Yea Let It ALL Burn! DONE

Mc Grandpa, I know you've been around for a minute or two playing with Poser, but since it does seem that Poser is not going to change into DS to allow Genesis to work natively, which it would have to do, why not give the next best thing advice on how the Poser figures that are coming out could be made better??? What is it that they're missing that you wish they had?


 Poser Content Directory


  EClark1894    ( ) ( posted at 5:55AM Sun, 15 November 2020  · @4404687

MazinkaiserDX posted at 5:51AM Sun, 15 November 2020 - #4403649

Personally, I think La Femme seems to be pretty good, my issue is that there is just much more stuff for Genesis figures and I already invested a lot on those, so even though I'm interested in Poser, it's just not realistic for me to invest as much on stuff for La Femme even if there was the same amount of stuff for her. Honestly, I don't even need the ability to get Genesis figures in Poser, they can just have a system like CC3 which would let me use most of my library while still using Poser native figures.

That actually makes no sense to me. Spending money is part and parcel of supporting a figure. No vendor is going to support a new figure if no one is going to buy anything new for it.


 Poser Content Directory


  JAG    ( ) ( posted at 8:53PM Tue, 17 November 2020  · @4404948

adp001 posted at 8:52PM Tue, 17 November 2020 - #4398779

DAZ will not allow that Poser can read DAZ files. Under no circumstances. All DAZ has to do is sit back and wait for Poser to die. And probably Rendo with it.

I think I speak for anyone with intelligence - this statement is wrong. Wrong. Still wrong. Be quiet please, adults here talking.


  JAG    ( ) ( posted at 9:01PM Tue, 17 November 2020  · @4404951

Richard60 posted at 8:56PM Tue, 17 November 2020 - #4403556

Let's see if this will help some of you understand the problem with converting DSON

DAZ owns DAZ Studio and the copyrights to that program. Which means they own how the program works.

When Poser 9 came out it lacked one thing that Genesis needs in order to be usable. And that thing is Sub-Division. Poser 9 cannot Sub-Divide a figure.

However when DAZ first released the DSON plug -in for Poser all of a sudden Poser 9 Could Sub-Divide (but only the Genesis figure). Anybody want to take a guess as to why this was now possible? The answer is that the DSON plug-in contains a mini-version of DAZ Studio. Poser is used to send dial commands to the mini-Studio and that program then takes the Genesis mesh and creates a mesh that Poser then displays.

And there is the problem NOBODY but DAZ can write the code for Studio since they own the copyright. Without that code all the neat things you think Genesis can do, it can't. Basically it is fairly simple to write a converter program to take the DAZ files and return them back to OBJ where they came from. The problem is that it is a static OBJ with none of the Bells and Whistles you want it to have.. It is even possible to try and convert the Weight maps, although that can be hard as it will be a best guess and the results will be close at best. However the fancy things like Auto-Fit won't make it. And it is things like this that you want and won't have.

Man I don't even know where to start tearing your utter wall of BS down at...so many wrongness points here. Were I one to enjoy the tearing, I'd be salivating. First of all if you even knew half of what you were talking about you'd know that DAZ figures contain multiple combines of their structure representing "levels" of subdivided versions. In other words you have a base and a "SubD" version which can be shifted using DSON input. They don't need a "mini-Studio" because you can't import with DSON unless Studio is installed on your computer. Where do you think you're importing or transferring a DAZ file from if not the Studio runtime? (Sighs and face palms himself!) And if you know what you're doing (which you clearly indicate you don't--) you can have all of Gen3+8 has to offer with only the loss of very minimal features. The weightmapping is converted in DAZ before setting up an export file to be used by DSON. So again, me smart...maybe you're not. I get really annoyed when people talk smack and don't even know what they're smacking. I apologize if my tone seems annoyed. That's probably because it is.


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