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Subject: PBR conversion in Poser 10 material room


mix_mash ( ) posted Fri, 29 January 2016 at 4:30 PM · edited Thu, 21 March 2024 at 7:50 AM

Hi,

I know this probably has been asked before and, no, I have no intention of getting Poser 11 but I would like to know if it is possible to take the Standard PBR image maps (IE Albedo, Specular, Roughness, Metallic, Normal) and plug them into Poser 10's material room to get an equivalent of what you can get from Substance Painter's viewport (minus SP's awesome Glare post effect, obviously). I want to avoid converting the maps in Photoshop. I'm not looking to get a perfect translation. I just want to plug the maps in so they at least function as they should. I realise that there will probably be a lot of node work in translating the maps but the results will give me a standard material I can re-use in future. Currently, my brain is flat-lining in finding the node solution for some of maps maybe because I'm trying to think of everything at once...

Oh, and the reason that I don't want to export the texture maps from Substance Painter as maps converted to your standard raytrace texture maps is that I think the PBR map system makes more sense and is easier to understand once it is explained to you in a way you can understand. I KNOW that there has to be a way to get PBR to work with a raytrace engine more closely to how PBR is meant to behave.

Anyway, this is a breakdown of what I need to figured out or get help figuring it out.

  1. Normal - This is straight forward. No help needed.

  2. Albedo/Color - This should go into 'diffuse color'. I also heard that this should also be plugged into 'diffuse value' because apparently color = value. I can't confirm this but if this is true then it saves from having to create a separate diffuse value map. The metallic map may somehow be mixed with the albedo in regards to the diffuse value, though.

  3. Specular - From my understanding, the PBR specular map contains the information for how shiny a surface is AND how reflective it is. So, the PBR spec map should somehow be plugged into 'specular value' and 'reflection value'.

  4. Roughness - Again, from my understanding, the PBR roughness map contains the information for how much reflection blurring occurs on the surface and how big/blurry the specular highlights should be (IE glossiness). Hooking the roughness map into the gloss/highlight size is the easy part. Having the reflection blur is something I have never tried before and looks complex. I don't even know if reflection blurring is possible in Poser 10.

  5. Metallic - The idea behind a metallic map is simple: White is metal, black is any non-metal surface. However, this is where it can get tricky because the rules changes for the specular and reflection colours depending on whether something is metallic or not. Now, I may be wrong here but non-metal surfaces (IE dielectric surfaces) have regular specular and reflection colour, however, metal surfaces have coloured highlights and coloured reflections based on the type of metal. This is the part I am unsure about because I am unsure if BOTH reflections AND specular highlights are tinted or not for metal surfaces.

  6. Reflection - Trying to set up the reflection for me is a headache because I am trying to achieve the PBR equivalent: reflection based on fresnel values/edge blend, reflection blurring, and reflection tinting for metal surfaces. To me, this seems like a node nightmare.

I'm not even covering anything like glass or translucent materials, subsurface scattering, refraction, caustics, etc... I just want to deal with the basic solid surfacing first based on the PBR maps.

While this isn't a matter of life and death, I think that sorting something like this out would be helpful and not just to me. I want to be able to figure out how to do this for Lightwave, too, but, I believe that the next version in 2016 will be more PBR friendly so it might be moot in regards to LW.

If I ever get back to making products for Poser and selling them on the marketplace (not that my products were ever brilliant or popular) then I want to able to make the process of making products as less painful as possible and less time consuming. I also want to keep the node setup to be as less complicated as possible so I'm not confused by what does what. Nodes sometimes scare me and that's why I don't own Substance Designer. If they didn't give me such a headache, I would have bought the program and made some awesome SBSAR materials by now.

Anyway, if anyone could help me in regards to this complex subject, please let me know and share the info. I realise I'm asking a lot but this may be useful for people who may want to hook up their PBR maps to their own raytracing programs other than Poser.

I appreciate any help.

Cheers,

Paul

(mix_mash)


Boni ( ) posted Fri, 29 January 2016 at 5:32 PM · edited Fri, 29 January 2016 at 5:34 PM

Well, one thing I learned today from bagginsbill is that in firefly specular and reflection need to be applied separately to objects and lights. That is a major difference. Please see Superfly comparison for the proper description and explanation, which I could not do justice to. I'm sure that bb can extrapolate with more wonderful details. 😄

Boni



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bagginsbill ( ) posted Sat, 30 January 2016 at 9:39 AM

I already have PBR FF shader but I'm not going to talk about it here, where the forum is completely broken.

Ask shader questions at RuntimeDNA.


Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)


WandW ( ) posted Sat, 30 January 2016 at 10:09 AM

bagginsbill posted at 11:08AM Sat, 30 January 2016 - #4252146

I already have PBR FF shader but I'm not going to talk about it here, where the forum is completely broken.

Ask shader questions at RuntimeDNA.

Which Poser Sub-Forum, Ted, as there are several at RDNA. The Node Cult?

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bagginsbill ( ) posted Sat, 30 January 2016 at 11:05 AM

Node Cult. The Node Cooking Pot is largely motivated by SuperFly and Poser 11.


Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)


mix_mash ( ) posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 4:54 AM

This isn't about a shader or Poser 11. I'm trying to find a way of plugging in the PBR maps into Poser 10 (not 11) so that I can emulate (not perfectly) your standard PBR setting for rendering. Yes, tweaks will be necessary to get things more accurate. But, like I said, I am not looking for accuracy, just compatibility. The setup I am looking for may also be helpful to people with older versions of their 3d programs that do not have PBR capabilities but do have the functions to create 'mock' PBR renders.

Paul (mix_mash)


bagginsbill ( ) posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 7:09 AM

It is about shaders. PBR is a parameterization that is not offered directly by any node, so I make it out of math nodes and Blenders.

The reference to Poser 11 was only in regard to which forum is appropriate - there are two shader forums at RDNA and one deals with all Poser, one deals only with Poser 11 and SuperFly.


Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)


mix_mash ( ) posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 8:02 AM · edited Sun, 31 January 2016 at 8:05 AM

bagginsbill posted at 7:54AM Sun, 31 January 2016 - #4252322

It is about shaders. PBR is a parameterization that is not offered directly by any node, so I make it out of math nodes and Blenders.

The reference to Poser 11 was only in regard to which forum is appropriate - there are two shader forums at RDNA and one deals with all Poser, one deals only with Poser 11 and SuperFly.

I'm sorry but this thread is NOT about shaders. I know this because I'm the one who started it. This thread is about trying to use one set of rules so that they work within another. Read my original message. I did not mention that I wanted to use a shader to achieve this. I did mention that I wanted to use Poser 10 and that nodes would be used. If it can't be done, then fine. If you anyone can explain why it can't be done then that would be good.

I'm just looking for the right combination of nodes where I can input all the PBR maps and work my way from there.

Please do not misinterpret the intent of my original message.

Paul (mix_mash)


bagginsbill ( ) posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 8:07 AM · edited Sun, 31 January 2016 at 8:07 AM

Wow - you seem to think nodes are not shaders. A shader is a set of nodes. To interpret your maps, you need a generic shader that can modulate all its properties according to those PBR maps. Sorry, I do not know how to use nodes outside a shader.


Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)


mix_mash ( ) posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 11:14 AM

I should clarify that when you said that you had a shader that you were suggesting that that was the solution to my problem. Yes, I did not know that a shader was a collection of nodes. I thought that a shader was a specialised node or a plugin but that was not what I was looking for. I'm trying to look for the solution with all the basic nodes that already exist within Poser 10. Nothing specialised or customised. Yes, you could argue that by connecting nodes together that you get something 'specialised or customised' but that would just be being nit-picky.

To be honest I think of nodes as 'components' and 'shaders' as complete tools, something reworked and out of the box. If my interpretation is wrong then I don't care. It's my interpretation. I'd rather work in layers in a linear way than in nodes in the non-linear way, anyway. But, it's Poser so no choice.

Look, if anyone knows how to set this up, even partially, then that would be great and I would be appreciative.

Paul (mix_mash)


bagginsbill ( ) posted Sun, 31 January 2016 at 12:23 PM

I'm the only one who knows how in this forum. Not sure why you're educating me on the terminology. We build shaders in Poser with assemblies of nodes. PBR requires a sophisticated shader, which means quite a few nodes in Poser.

Anyway - I'm not going to post here - Rendo forum and I are at war.


Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)


bagginsbill ( ) posted Mon, 01 February 2016 at 11:06 AM

Seeing how nobody would start the conversation where I asked, I have now done so. If you want to follow along, or even better, participate, head over to:

RuntimeDNA thread on PBR Shaders for FireFly and SuperFly


Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)


EldritchCellar ( ) posted Mon, 01 February 2016 at 11:53 AM

Thanks for the heads up.



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mix_mash ( ) posted Tue, 02 February 2016 at 4:46 AM · edited Tue, 02 February 2016 at 4:47 AM

This isn't your thread, bagginsbill. Please do not hijack it. I don't appreciate it. You've already made it clear that you have your own way of doing things and have a shader of your own. That's fine but you are detracting from what I am looking for.

So, unless you have something constructive or useful to add to my request, you know, the original thread post, then I would kindly ask you not to post in this thread any more.

I wish you all the best of luck in your own thread at the board of your choosing, though.

Paul (mix_mash)


Nagra_00_ ( ) posted Tue, 02 February 2016 at 9:03 AM

Not long ago i started with an very simple node setup for using PBR maps in Poser 10. BUT since i had to use the reflection node render time became terrible slow and i gave up from that idea.

Here an example P10 IDL render (glass and liquid was done conventional) that took more than 10 hours to finish.

P10_PBR.jpg


mix_mash ( ) posted Tue, 02 February 2016 at 9:31 AM

Cool. If you are OK with it, could you please share your setup with us?

Cheers, Paul (mix_mash)


IsaoShi ( ) posted Tue, 02 February 2016 at 4:02 PM · edited Tue, 02 February 2016 at 4:17 PM

mix_mash... I just wanted to say as an objective observer that bagginsbill really has been working on precisely what you are asking about. Unfortunately that clear message got lost in the exchange. I understand the reasons for this, but a discussion about effective communications and empathy doesn't belong here :)

The fact is that in order to get anything like the expected results out of Firefly using standard PBR maps, they have to be plugged into a fairly sophisticated shader (i.e. a network of nodes) that translates the raw PBR data maps into Firefly-compatible data that the PoserSurface node can understand. This requires nodes that generate all the separate components required - diffuse, specular, reflection, scattering, transparency, translucence, refraction, etc. - according to the information contained in the PBR maps.

I mean no disrespect to anyone else (please forgive me for any offence) but Bagginsbill is maybe the only person in these forums with the knowledge required to create such a translation tool and get great results, and he has done so.

Izi

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)


Nagra_00_ ( ) posted Wed, 03 February 2016 at 6:21 AM

No, i have no setup that is worse to share because i canceled this project in the very early beginning of evaluation (no reflection blur, no refraction, no fresnel,…) Due to the poor render performance on a full environment my interest drop immediately to zero.

You may check out the link given by BB. As i understood he is going to offer some information on how to setup nodes for the PBR maps.


hborre ( ) posted Wed, 03 February 2016 at 8:55 AM

@ Nagra_00_: perhaps you didn't read the previous post, absolutely no consult with BB about PBR.


bantha ( ) posted Wed, 03 February 2016 at 9:54 AM

Reacting on your questions from the initial posting. All IMHO, I'm not the big shader expert.

  1. Albedo should color the diffuse channel if non-metall, it should color the specular if metal. So it should go into the diffuse part, but you will probably want to use a diffuse node instead of the build-in node to blend the specular via a fresnel blend node.

  2. You most probably should decide which style of PBR shader do you want to build. If you have Albedo/Roughness/Metallness you do not have a specular map.

  3. For a good PBR shader, you need to sync a Reflection Node with a specular node (Blinn/ksMicrofacet), or your materials won't look right. Firefly can do blurred reflections, but I have no idea how to sync them in a believable way with the reflectivity. You will need a lot of test renders to find out. And prepare to have long renders, because blurry reflections are costly in Firefly. This blurring is the roughness setting. Just changing the highlight size in the Specular part of the Root node won't make it look correct, though. Use Blinn or ksMicroFacet with the correct settings (I do not have them) and blend them in with a Fresnel Blend.

  4. Metallness is the most easy part. Metallness=1 means no Diffuse and colored Speculars. Metallness=0 means diffuse as normal and white speculars.

  5. See Roughness. If you want your shader to be usable with IDL, you absolutely need reflections, at least at lower roughness levels. Using Fresnel basically means that you blend the reflections on the outer and the diffuse components at the inner channel.

You could search for BB's post about building a basic glossy shader, this should get you pretty close.


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mix_mash ( ) posted Wed, 03 February 2016 at 5:44 PM

Finally! Thank you, Bantha, for that useful info.

Much obliged!

Paul (mix_mash)


mix_mash ( ) posted Fri, 05 February 2016 at 1:44 PM

I've been doing a little research on the whole PBR subject and I have come to the conclusion that it is probably better to use the spec/gloss PBR setup rather than the roughness/metallic one. It's an overwhelming subject that can seem simple at times. The translation of metallic/roughness maps seems like more of a hassle because I am still thinking of all the elements of the raytracing workflow and I can't personally seem to translate the info within those maps to fit it. It's not that it is impossible. It's just that I suck at it. Maybe I'm just overwhelmed by all the info. The tricky part is that I am trying to do something with a transparency map so I need to use it as a clipping map for every material setting and that means adding extra blend nodes. I wish that there were some 'clip map' setting in poser for absolute clipping of a material. I also wish that it was a bit like Maya where you can set a basic material then have preset PBR material nodes (EG metal, plastic, wood) that you could just plugin to the basic material node and control that with an ID map.

But it doesn't matter what I want cos companies don't usually listen to good ideas ;-P

Paul (mix_mash)


IsaoShi ( ) posted Sat, 06 February 2016 at 12:01 PM

[mix_mash]

... and I can't personally seem to translate the info within those maps to fit it. It's not that it is impossible. It's just that I suck at it. Maybe I'm just overwhelmed by all the info.

I've been reading about just the kind of issues you are identifying here, but in another place. Companies may not listen, but someone is - someone who can do these translations in Poser. Just sayin'... and now I'll shutup (thank goodness). Hope you find a solution, Paul. :) Izi

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)


mix_mash ( ) posted Sun, 07 February 2016 at 5:19 AM

Thanks. I appreciate it, Izi.


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