Forum: DAZ|Studio


 Subject: Daz Studio 4.9 Big Changes Incoming!!

ghosty12 opened this issue on Oct 28, 2015 · 501 posts


  ghosty12 ( posted at 9:50AM Wed, 28 October 2015 

Just a little post to let everyone know here of the release of Daz Studio 4.9 Public Beta and a major change in how content will be delivered once 4.9 goes live.. The new system that is incoming is called Daz Connect, what you may ask is Daz Connect? Well best to head on over to the Daz Forums because right now there are major rumblings from the Daz forums over Daz Connect.. Lets just say that big changes are coming and by the looks not all of them will be good..

You know you enjoy 3D Art when you realize that your life is a piece of 3D Art. :)

Core I7 2700K, 8gig ram, Nvidia 650 GTX TI, Windows 10 64bit, Poser 9 / Pro 2012 / Pro 2014, Daz Studio 4.8 Pro/Daz Studio 4.9 Beta.

  LPR001 ( posted at 10:06AM Wed, 28 October 2015 

I know I am running 4.9 most of the changes are good ghostly but the Daz Connect is a grey area and I agree. I run the DRM system on other software and usually if the net skips a beat some I get lock out but usually if the software content is available on a trial you get trial spattered across your screen you can't see what you are doing

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  cedarwolf ( posted at 10:25AM Wed, 28 October 2015 

Hmmm....do I, or don't I....that seems to be the question. As one of those 'early user' people because of my ADHD and need to play with new stuff and see how it breaks, I'm still a bit cautious because I don't understand half of what's going on already. Guess I'll have to grit my teeth after the DSL resets in a week and download it to a separate iteration.

  LPR001 ( posted at 11:06AM Wed, 28 October 2015 

I kept 4.8. Its Beta so it shouldn't replace your 4.8 Just do a backup of your content to an external drive get 4.9 and if it goes pear shaped then you have solution. I still think the benefits outweigh the negs even with the cloud based DRM management. I feel the Props/Content loads a little quicker just haven't had much time to check out both the claimed render engines improvements properly. I was going to wait and after 3 minutes like you ADHD took over I had waited long enough and all went silky smooth. I didn't do the backup of course because I never practice what I preach most is scattered far and wide anyhow tbh probably be doing me a favour if it disappeared

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  ghosty12 ( posted at 11:29AM Wed, 28 October 2015 

You should see what is happening over at the Daz forums the amount of disgruntled people over these changes to the new incoming content delivery system is well lets just say some folks are planning on ditching Daz content altogether and going places like here at Renderosity, RDNA or Hivewire..

You know you enjoy 3D Art when you realize that your life is a piece of 3D Art. :)

Core I7 2700K, 8gig ram, Nvidia 650 GTX TI, Windows 10 64bit, Poser 9 / Pro 2012 / Pro 2014, Daz Studio 4.8 Pro/Daz Studio 4.9 Beta.

  Zev0 ( posted at 12:15PM Wed, 28 October 2015 

Yes they said the same thing when PC club rules were changed, when Genesis 2 replaced Genesis 1, and when Genesis 3 arrived so soon. People don't like change and the venting you see is a natural occurrence.

My Renderosity Store

  -Timberwolf- ( posted at 1:13PM Wed, 28 October 2015 

No I'm serious. Cloud is evil. so no way. If DAZ goes cloud, that's it, I'm gone. Bummer I've just started to like DAZ. Was a very short affaire. If worst comes worst, I'll go back to pen and paper.

  Zev0 ( posted at 1:28PM Wed, 28 October 2015 · edited on 1:34PM Wed, 28 October 2015

Depends on the cloud system. All the Daz one will do is alert you of real time content updates, sort content, suggest products etc. Expecting users to monitor this themselves isn't working as half of them aren't alerted when a product has been updated unless they check dim every time. The system isn't going to steal your information or spy on you. Not all cloud systems are evil. This cloud system is strictly for content management and how it is handled, nothing else. Are people scared of this type of thing? Yes, but it all depends on the type of company behind the system. I don't think Daz is an evil corporation that want to know what you had for supper or monitor your private actions. We all have different views on these things. I for one have no issue with cloud systems because in a lot of ways it is more dynamic and real-time compared to older systems. Only issue I do have is some companies motives behind them. In this regard, I don't think Daz's motives are to harm users or violate their trust.

My Renderosity Store

  ghosty12 ( posted at 1:35PM Wed, 28 October 2015 

The one thing that is good to know now is that they are also going to allow the download of encrypted product package files along with the authorization file unique to the purchaser to allow offline installation.. :D

You know you enjoy 3D Art when you realize that your life is a piece of 3D Art. :)

Core I7 2700K, 8gig ram, Nvidia 650 GTX TI, Windows 10 64bit, Poser 9 / Pro 2012 / Pro 2014, Daz Studio 4.8 Pro/Daz Studio 4.9 Beta.

  unzipped ( posted at 2:29PM Wed, 28 October 2015 · edited on 2:30PM Wed, 28 October 2015

The cloud part is undesirable. I don't want my content across the network. I don't need my software phoning home. I don't want things I paid for DRM'ed. I won't take any release of Studio with that in it (as is the current plan for 4.9) and I won't buy any content from DAZ that is DRM'ed (which is the stated future DAZ content delivery plan).

  DAZ_kevin ( posted at 3:10PM Wed, 28 October 2015 

Leftover Pot Roast again? Interesting... [Zev0](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=631071) posted at 3:09PM Wed, 28 October 2015 - [#4235687](#msg4235687) > I don't think Daz is an evil corporation that want to know what you had for supper or monitor your private actions.

  -Timberwolf- ( posted at 3:55PM Wed, 28 October 2015 

I understand, that they want fight piracy. But it all mostley affects legal users. Piracy is realy a PITA, when people start to make money with your work. I think it's more effective to go against the piracy system then against the downloaders. Like go against dealers, not addicts. About 15years ago at my school, Poser stuff has been shared a lot. None of the guys made money with it. Those nerds opened Poser twisting V1 around, giggled, shared it on and forgot it. Those who liked it, played with it for a while and purchased the next version legally. So I think, those warez helped make Poser and content popular. Where do you get informations about 3dcg stuff from? I don't know about the US, but in europe, I have never ever seen a comercial dealing with CG, Poser or DAZStudio on TV nor in magazins or anywhere else. If you want to know anything about that, you have to be allready into it, and you have to know where to look for it. So do something against the big guys. This scene is highley criminal. They will find a way to provide cracks anyway. The only ones, that have all the problems are the legal customers.

  -Timberwolf- ( posted at 3:59PM Wed, 28 October 2015 

And Renderosity taught me, that not even Credit Card nr are save, so how would purchased cloud content be safe?

  LPR001 ( posted at 5:15PM Wed, 28 October 2015 

[Zev0](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=631071) posted at 7:45AM Thu, 29 October 2015 - [#4235667](#msg4235667) > Yes they said the same thing when PC club rules were changed, when Genesis 2 replaced Genesis 1, and when Genesis 3 arrived so soon. People don't like change and the venting you see is a natural occurrence. Exactly a storm in a teacup. We should not lose sight of the fact Daz give away the software, allow you to buy products and utilize from outside of their domain, make your own content and if you wish sell it at any number of outlets including their own store. Or if you're like me export everything out for use in other software. Not many companies on the planet give you that much freedom you usually have a ball and chain. We click agree on their terms of use it is only fair we let them protect what content they do have and the vendors who produce it for their store. Piracy has all but killed the music industry and now the film industry are kicking and screaming as suffering the same. You challenge somebody who has stolen your product you get a response "You should be happy that I thought enough of it to steal it" dealing with that mentality I fully understand Daz's moves towards DRM providing it is stable system we should support it. After all you paid your hard earned money for the content you are using why should the theives be able to utilize it for free. IMO that is more of a slap in the face than anything Daz are doing. Of course they also had the option to charge for the software somebody can correct me here but wasn't it "Daz 4.5 FREE for a limited time" ? Lose in one area make up for it in another.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  RHaseltine ( posted at 5:23PM Wed, 28 October 2015 

Despite the "cloud" bit the system will work offline when complete, aside from a one time activation to let your computer verify your account. At the moment the offline download isn't available, but even without it you can use your installed content offline - a connection is needed only for installing and updating content.

  AtticAnne ( posted at 5:37PM Wed, 28 October 2015 

It doesn't work with Carrara. I held on with DS until G3F. Quit right there. My setup is 32-bit, so I cannot use Iray. Nor will I install this 4.9 beta.

  chaecuna ( posted at 2:52AM Thu, 29 October 2015 

Extremely bad evolution. Time to seriously (not just an emotional reaction, but cold, calculated one) look at something different from Poser (check nightmarish Smith Micro situation) and different from Studio (absolute power corrupts absolutely). And, since I am programmer by profession, also time to give a hard look at Poser, Studio and Blender scripting (mcjTeleblender is a great inspiration, isn't it? suggests lots of ideas, doesn't it?). @LPR001: "Free for some time" is good but "Free as beer and speech forever" it better, much better.

  WandW ( posted at 7:50AM Thu, 29 October 2015 

Keep in mind this is strictly a business decision. DAZ is no longer a small shop run by a group of artists, but is now but one small piece of a $80 Billion dollar corporation, Nippon Telegraph and Telephone, and has to contribute to their bottom line...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."

“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"

"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 9:45AM Thu, 29 October 2015 

[WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 10:43AM Thu, 29 October 2015 - [#4235778](#msg4235778) > Keep in mind this is strictly a business decision. DAZ is no longer a small shop run by a group of artists, but is now but one small piece of a $80 Billion dollar corporation, Nippon Telegraph and Telephone, and has to contribute to their bottom line... And so is Smith micro. I wouldn't be surprised that their connected to the web protection becomes a reality in all versions of Poser as the other products in SM's product line.

  Khory_D ( posted at 9:59AM Thu, 29 October 2015 

"Of course they also had the option to charge for the software somebody can correct me here but wasn't it "Daz 4.5 FREE for a limited time" " The marketing phrase your looking for is "creating a sense of urgency" and is much smarter business than "pick it up any time before the end of the world". Having an option does not mean it is good business in the "free to play" economy to go back to a strategy you already have proof is not ideal.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  Zev0 ( posted at 10:09AM Thu, 29 October 2015 · edited on 10:18AM Thu, 29 October 2015

[WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 5:08PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - [#4235778](#msg4235778) > DAZ is no longer a small shop run by a group of artists, but is now but one small piece of a $80 Billion dollar corporation, Nippon Telegraph and Telephone, and has to contribute to their bottom line... Say what now?

My Renderosity Store

  Zev0 ( posted at 10:10AM Thu, 29 October 2015 

[DAZ_kevin](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=415208) posted at 5:10PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - [#4235707](#msg4235707) > Leftover Pot Roast again? Interesting... > > [Zev0](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=631071) posted at 3:09PM Wed, 28 October 2015 - [#4235687](#msg4235687) > > > I don't think Daz is an evil corporation that want to know what you had for supper or monitor your private actions. Lol Kev

My Renderosity Store

  ghosty12 ( posted at 10:35AM Thu, 29 October 2015 · edited on 10:36AM Thu, 29 October 2015

Well considering that if you do not have a physical copy of Photoshop, you are stuck with Photoshop CC where you pay either a monthly, yearly or as you need it sub to use their software and well a lot of other companies are heading in the same direction with their software.. So in some respect the Daz thing could be a lot worse, I remember when you had to pay I think it was $450 or $500 for Daz Studio Pro and Advanced.. Also with the licensing costs that Daz have to pay for 3Delight which is by looking at the 3Delight website is not cheap, and who knows how much they are having to fork out to Nvidia for the use of Iray makes you wonder.. I was a bit taken aback by these changes at first but after thinking about it good and properly I can understand totally now for this move by Daz.. I am a hobby artist who has done some work for a small website and have found some of the premium content from that website being posted where it should not have been.. And well it is quite infuriating when you see your own work being stolen by others because there goes your bread and butter so to speak being made free for everyone.. I know that there is no real way to stop piracy but you would like to be able to slow it down just a bit.. So in the end the only way they can recoup the costs of Studio is from the content they sell and well the problem is that currently there is so much stolen Daz content out there I am surprised it took them this long to do what they have done.. And don't think that Daz are the only ones losing their content to pirates there is probably a ton of Renderosity, RDNA and Renderotica content floating around out there in the DarkWeb..

You know you enjoy 3D Art when you realize that your life is a piece of 3D Art. :)

Core I7 2700K, 8gig ram, Nvidia 650 GTX TI, Windows 10 64bit, Poser 9 / Pro 2012 / Pro 2014, Daz Studio 4.8 Pro/Daz Studio 4.9 Beta.

  wolf359 ( posted at 10:48AM Thu, 29 October 2015 

This will protect Daz PA content from Illegal Distribution....for at least several hours. Perhaps even longer than the "encryption" That was promised to protect the Sony Blu-Ray Discs for "ten years" from having the HD video extracted and put on torrent...it lasted 3 hours. But hey Daz has to make the effort Piracy s quite rampant. My usage is not affected as I am staying with DS 4.7 for the foreseeable future I dont need any more new content and will likely start making my own genesis 2 content if needed, as it is so bloody easy now.



MY WEBSITE

MY IMDB LISTING



  bhoins ( posted at 2:32PM Thu, 29 October 2015 

[-Timberwolf-](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=225791) posted at 1:30PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - [#4235682](#msg4235682) > No I'm serious. Cloud is evil. so no way. If DAZ goes cloud, that's it, I'm gone. Bummer I've just started to like DAZ. Was a very short affaire. If worst comes worst, I'll go back to pen and paper. OK, then to be serious, Daz Studio resides on your computer, your content resides on your computer. The only time you need to connect is to download and install your content that you don't already have on your computer or for updating the content/software on your computer.

  chaecuna ( posted at 4:56PM Thu, 29 October 2015 

[bhoins](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=389524) posted at 10:53PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - [#4235833](#msg4235833) > [-Timberwolf-](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=225791) posted at 1:30PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - [#4235682](#msg4235682) > > > No I'm serious. Cloud is evil. so no way. If DAZ goes cloud, that's it, I'm gone. Bummer I've just started to like DAZ. Was a very short affaire. If worst comes worst, I'll go back to pen and paper. > > OK, then to be serious, Daz Studio resides on your computer, your content resides on your computer. The only time you need to connect is to download and install your content that you don't already have on your computer or for updating the content/software on your computer. Yes. Definitely. Until you will again hear an ominous deep breath and a voice will inform you that the deal has been further altered. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

  unzipped ( posted at 6:16PM Thu, 29 October 2015 

They're converting Studio into another storefront. The ability to render the content you buy from them is becoming its secondary purpose. The main goal is to make advertising to the users prominent and make purchasing seamless. They'll get more impulse buys than ever before. "Hey your scene has V7 and some ropes in it - click here to buy some chains, whip cream and a new S&M outfit which will be automatically installed and populated into your scene." That's where this is going. They could have done tons of things to fix how users install their content to achieve their purported goal of addressing all the "I can't find my stuff" support tickets they're whining about - integrating directly with the store isn't necessary for that.

  Writers_Block ( posted at 8:08PM Thu, 29 October 2015 

[Zev0](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=631071) posted at 1:04AM Fri, 30 October 2015 - [#4235687](#msg4235687) > Depends on the cloud system. All the Daz one will do is alert you of real time content updates, sort content, suggest products etc. Expecting users to monitor this themselves isn't working as half of them aren't alerted when a product has been updated unless they check dim every time. The system isn't going to steal your information or spy on you. Not all cloud systems are evil. This cloud system is strictly for content management and how it is handled, nothing else. Are people scared of this type of thing? Yes, but it all depends on the type of company behind the system. I don't think Daz is an evil corporation that want to know what you had for supper or monitor your private actions. We all have different views on these things. I for one have no issue with cloud systems because in a lot of ways it is more dynamic and real-time compared to older systems. Only issue I do have is some companies motives behind them. In this regard, I don't think Daz's motives are to harm users or violate their trust. We don't know their motives. I wonder if the DRM isn't a double bluff; not mention it, folks get caught up on it, when the intent long-term is to go subscription only. After all, the EULA already says 'we' don't own it, only licence it. And EULAs change. It is a logical progression from what is being introduced now. I guess we'll wait and see. Other than the DRM and the cloud part, there is lots to like about this. After 4.8 it isn't ground-breaking, but small speed improvements in render speeds and bug fixes are always nice.

  Khory_D ( posted at 9:52PM Thu, 29 October 2015 

"If DAZ goes cloud, that's it, I'm gone." Why is it a simple name change makes people get all woggly? The reality is that content has been jumping on and off that same cloud since DIM came out. It goes there when you purchase it so you can download it, it goes back there when you use DIM to remove something. The rest of the time it lives right there on your hard drive with you. The difference is that it is easier and it does not depend on you having to start a different program. No, not every one uses DIM but the vast majority for them there really is no change where downloads are coming from. DIM skippers are not seeing a change either. I can't imagine them ever going to subscription only because it would be a frekin nightmare for them. There are several hundred individual PA's with thousands of individual products in the store. Can you imagine the accounting nightmare it would be to sort out who got what for how ever many days potentially hundreds of products were subscribed to? And there would be no way to equitably pay PA's unless it were on a per item basis since there is so much variable in how many products people have and which products are most popular. Nor is there any logic to the program going subscription because all that does is screw up a working marketing scheme.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  Khory_D ( posted at 10:17PM Thu, 29 October 2015 · edited on 10:17PM Thu, 29 October 2015

"They're converting Studio into another storefront. The ability to render the content you buy from them is becoming its secondary purpose. The main goal is to make advertising to the users prominent and make purchasing seamless. They'll get more impulse buys than ever before. "Hey your scene has V7 and some ropes in it - click here to buy some chains, whip cream and a new S&M outfit which will be automatically installed and populated into your scene." That's where this is going. They could have done tons of things to fix how users install their content to achieve their purported goal of addressing all the "I can't find my stuff" support tickets they're whining about - integrating directly with the store isn't necessary for that." Yes, they are adding a little window that will show options from the store. But as store fronts go its pretty small since it is a section at the bottom of the smart content tab. And since it is so unobtrusive most people can't even find it at first I doubt if it will be super distracting unless people are looking to be distracted. Nor does it seem to actually be as aware of my content as you seem to think it should be. By the way what your calling "whining" is them actually listening to what many customers have trouble with and trying to address it and simplify it. I have been at this a long time and I am pretty confident about where my content is. In fact I am pretty old school so I never really learned to use smart content.... Until now. It is so much easier to really see what the content is with Smart content that when I am just looking to see if something inspires me or strikes me vs me going right to what I know I am about to use. Now if after 10 years I suddenly find it easier to locate things how much easier must it be for someone just starting out?

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  Razor42 ( posted at 3:59AM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 4:00AM Fri, 30 October 2015

Why do I get the feeling that when the dust settles at the Daz3D forums regarding this issue, and the people who are just stirring trouble there for the sake of it are moved on. This thread is going to heat up a bit. There is lots of speculation about motive and future direction of Daz3D when very little factual evidence of that said "intention" is evident. Sure the next Eula **might** want the blood of your first born child but then again it might not...


  malwat ( posted at 7:43AM Fri, 30 October 2015 

I do not use modern Photoshop because it is taking my money week in, week out. I prefer to buy things and own them wherever possible - like hard-copies of books. Then, when I want o take them from the shelf I can do so, without relying on external connections and the whims of publishers. DRM using the cloud is definitely not for me, and neither is a subscription service. I have thoroughly enjoyed being addicted to DS for a year or so, but once the pleasure wears off, I am out of here. Why can't companies realise that the people they have on baord should be cherished?

Malwat

Getting younger by the day; getting older by the minute....

  chaecuna ( posted at 8:06AM Fri, 30 October 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 2:04PM Fri, 30 October 2015 - [#4235913](#msg4235913) > Sure the next Eula **might** want the blood of your first born child but then again it might not... Using your line of reasoning, if I see a mushroom I should eat it without seconds thoughts, since it is known that there are edible mushrooms around... I don't know why but I have some gut feeling that there is something wrong somewhere in this strategy...

  Khory_D ( posted at 8:32AM Fri, 30 October 2015 

" and neither is a subscription service." I really don't know what yahoo first made up that bs but its someone who has just no clue what the word brokerage means or how a brokerage works. The accounting cost alone would be prohibitive unless the how the whole company was organized. And to do that they would have to get hundreds of people on board. Imagine thousands of individual products starting subscriptions for x time every single day with some being pro rated. Then imagine that the money for those thousands of individual subscriptions having to be properly added to the accounts of hundreds of PA's. Then imagine that on top of that some hundreds of subscriptions expire or are other wise ended. Again some being pro rated if there was a CS issue. The accounting would just be so daunting even if they could get 300 people to sign on to a risky concept like that. And before anyone says "oh but they can just do all buy outs" that way also is crazy talk because it means that the cost of doing business skyrockets into the stratosphere. Brokerages work because they don't have to pre pay for the bulk of the inventory that goes into them.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  HassenBenSobar ( posted at 9:46AM Fri, 30 October 2015 

So I dont like the new strategy that DAZ is using, honestly, I dont want to pick another argument because ive had enough of it. Since August ive been bickering with Renderosity about the new format and prime. Now this happens over at DAZ it seems like it starts all over again. Whether or not DAZ's intentions are innocent only seem to be part of the problem. Im sure all that DAZ wants to do is sell content. Today, the issue really is how someone else with dishonest intentions is going to use your bandwidth. We learned about that here at Renderosity and Hivewire when our cards were hacked. Weve learned about how user accounts on Steam are being hacked. DAZ is entering the DRM fray late and im sure that there are many hackers who are going to go to town and the new encryption. Does DAZ have the resources to commit a full time team protect its encryption? How will this impact the overall goal of improving the render capabilities? Im convinced that the hacker community is purposely targeting the new and shiny while leaving all the old tech in the past, although I have no real evidence to back that up. Thats part of the reason why I dont want to move from the .zip. Anyhow, I was so upset at Rendo that I made no purchases since August and all of a sudden, im back... What can you do?

  klown ( posted at 10:50AM Fri, 30 October 2015 

What you can do is tell them you won't be punished for being a loyal user when their "anti-piracy" measures will only hamper your ability to use the content you pay for. meanwhile the methods they describe to prevent privacy might do little more then delay it, but it far from stops it. Poser are you watching? You should be; Remember when QuarkXPress was king of desktop publishing and InDesign was struggling for a life preserver?

  Khory_D ( posted at 11:49AM Fri, 30 October 2015 

[HassenBenSobar](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=752117) posted at 11:36AM Fri, 30 October 2015 - [#4235949](#msg4235949) > So I dont like the new strategy that DAZ is using, honestly, I dont want to pick another argument because ive had enough of it. Since August ive been bickering with Renderosity about the new format and prime. Now this happens over at DAZ it seems like it starts all over again. > Whether or not DAZ's intentions are innocent only seem to be part of the problem. Im sure all that DAZ wants to do is sell content. Today, the issue really is how someone else with dishonest intentions is going to use your bandwidth. We learned about that here at Renderosity and Hivewire when our cards were hacked. Weve learned about how user accounts on Steam are being hacked. DAZ is entering the DRM fray late and im sure that there are many hackers who are going to go to town and the new encryption. Does DAZ have the resources to commit a full time team protect its encryption? How will this impact the overall goal of improving the render capabilities? > Im convinced that the hacker community is purposely targeting the new and shiny while leaving all the old tech in the past, although I have no real evidence to back that up. Thats part of the reason why I dont want to move from the .zip. > Anyhow, I was so upset at Rendo that I made no purchases since August and all of a sudden, im back... > What can you do? It isn't about hackers though is it. It is about thieves who want to make an easy buck by "giving away" stolen content and making money off ad views or subscription services to access those "free" products. Those are people who want easy money not money that takes effort. And if hackers have to waste time that they could be spending trying to make big money hits on little piddling files for "free" "share" sites so be it. As far as the overall impact on render capabilities.. Do you mean the upgrades added to 3dl and Iray in the new build? There were some speed increases and bug fixes. I do know that the new version makes smart content easier to work with. I've been resistant to it (old dog/new tricks) in the past but really quite like it now. It is so much more visual and appealing. Plus the info pane has been beefed up and is quite handy.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  Khory_D ( posted at 11:57AM Fri, 30 October 2015 

[klown](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=794) posted at 11:49AM Fri, 30 October 2015 - [#4235958](#msg4235958) > What you can do is tell them you won't be punished for being a loyal user when their "anti-piracy" measures will only hamper your ability to use the content you pay for. meanwhile the methods they describe to prevent privacy might do little more then delay it, but it far from stops it. > Poser are you watching? You should be; Remember when QuarkXPress was king of desktop publishing and InDesign was struggling for a life preserver? The vast majority of users will never even notice the encryption. Maps are not encrypted and those are the things that most users play with if they are going to make changes outside the scope of the program. The only "hampering" is to editing the core text file outside the program. That is something only a very few users feel they need to do. You really think that Poser/SM is currently in a position financial to do the sort of marketing drive necessary to see any a dramatic enough increase in user numbers? Or that they are willing to make course corrections to even potentially take advantage of ease of use things Studio users would expect to be able to do in a program? Nor is there absolute proof that they have learned there lesson about "phoning home" which Daz did and made sure to not implement.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  -Timberwolf- ( posted at 12:44PM Fri, 30 October 2015 

Can I install that content, where I want it to? And what if I decide to upgrade my hardware every 6 months? Is it the same content system Cornucopia uses for Vue content?

  jestmart ( posted at 1:23PM Fri, 30 October 2015 

If you use the DAZ Connect to install content it will install to the first library listed in Content Directory Manager. It doesn't really matter though as you can only see this content in Smart Content tab or under Products or Categories in the Content Library tab.

  LPR001 ( posted at 1:33PM Fri, 30 October 2015 

[malwat](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=796425) posted at 3:51AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4235932](#msg4235932) > I do not use modern Photoshop because it is taking my money week in, week out. I prefer to buy things and own them wherever possible - like hard-copies of books. In some areas what Adobe did was not such a bad thing as there are a lot of people in the world that would have never had the opportunity to buy the Photoshop software outright. There is very early version of PS here you practically had to sell a kidney to buy a copy. Adobe still have their training wheels on with it though CC2014 upgrade to 2015 80% or more that you had purchased from their store was no longer compatible. So each time you started your computer it would give you a flood of install failed CC messages. I paid for these and there are still some that the vendor has not updated and have been unusable for a longer period than I could utilize them in the first place. Cloud issues etc, I always found Daz to be fast paced company and the vendors etc kept up with anything required re updates. Obviously given the advance spec requirements etc. One could say Daz were leaders not followers in most areas So there might be reason why they have been very slow to go down this path (Look and Learn) and there still is a chance they will get it right with a minimum of inconvenience to the user. They probably have even factored in the initial customary bitchin' session which we all know, love and are entitled to do. I am not so sure on the cloud side it is a wait and see. I don't mind the little shop they have going I can live with it even if a little subliminal while you scroll through your content and the one thing that would suit perfectly is in the next box down. The main thing I have noticed is the render times it does seem to kick along quicker

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  HassenBenSobar ( posted at 1:59PM Fri, 30 October 2015 

[klown](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=794) posted at 11:55AM Fri, 30 October 2015 - [#4235958](#msg4235958) > What you can do is tell them you won't be punished for being a loyal user when their "anti-piracy" measures will only hamper your ability to use the content you pay for. meanwhile the methods they describe to prevent privacy might do little more then delay it, but it far from stops it. > Poser are you watching? You should be; Remember when QuarkXPress was king of desktop publishing and InDesign was struggling for a life preserver? Certainly, and I dont intend to pruchase content via DAZ Connect and I wont be purchasing DRM content "offline" bundles. I will take a look at 4.9 eventually but only after its out of beta and only after its had a thorough dissection by the community. If they do offer an offline only version, that will be the way to go for me.

  maxgrafix ( posted at 4:45PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 4:46PM Fri, 30 October 2015

I was always wondering how and when this type of anit-piracy measure was going to be introduced. After chatting with one content creator a few years ago we got round to talking about this very subject. His idea (a joke with a hint of seriousness) was to upload virus infected files to those giving away his content on sharing sites. Amusing at the time, but since there is little or no real protection for content creators like the movie and movie industry have, it was only a matter of time before something like this was implemented. Regarding DRM. It's been tried, tested and has failed where music and video content is concerned so I can't see it working for DAZ. I'll give it a week or two before the hackers and crackers reverse engineeer the files and post them online. Then what?

  HassenBenSobar ( posted at 4:53PM Fri, 30 October 2015 

[maxgrafix](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=240453) posted at 2:48PM Fri, 30 October 2015 - [#4236040](#msg4236040) > I was always wondering how and when this type of anit-piracy measure was going to be introduced. > > After chatting with one content creator a few years ago we got round to talking about this very subject. His idea (a joke with a hint of seriousness) was to upload virus infected files to those giving away his content on sharing sites. Amusing at the time, but since there is little or no real protection for content creators like the movie and movie industry have, it was only a matter of time before something like this was implemented. > > > Regarding DRM. It's been tried, tested and has failed where music and video content is concerned so I can't see it working for DAZ. I'll give it a week or two before the hackers and crackers reverse engineeer the files and post them online. > > Then what? I think it may have been the first Batman game, Arkham Asylum, they purposely coded a bug that would reproduce if the game detected that it was illegal. If I remember correctly, in the tutorial sequence where Batman has to make his way across the gargoyles for the first time, Batman would not leap from the gargoyles leaving the game soft locked. I think code like that would be a super creative alternative to drm. I just never heard of anyone else trying something like that.

  maxgrafix ( posted at 5:01PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 5:08PM Fri, 30 October 2015

[HassenBenSobar](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=752117) posted at 9:57PM Fri, 30 October 2015 - [#4236041](#msg4236041) > [maxgrafix](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=240453) posted at 2:48PM Fri, 30 October 2015 - [#4236040](#msg4236040) > > > I was always wondering how and when this type of anit-piracy measure was going to be introduced. > > > > After chatting with one content creator a few years ago we got round to talking about this very subject. His idea (a joke with a hint of seriousness) was to upload virus infected files to those giving away his content on sharing sites. Amusing at the time, but since there is little or no real protection for content creators like the movie and movie industry have, it was only a matter of time before something like this was implemented. > > > > > > Regarding DRM. It's been tried, tested and has failed where music and video content is concerned so I can't see it working for DAZ. I'll give it a week or two before the hackers and crackers reverse engineeer the files and post them online. > > > > Then what? > > I think it may have been the first Batman game, Arkham Asylum, they purposely coded a bug that would reproduce if the game detected that it was illegal. If I remember correctly, in the tutorial sequence where Batman has to make his way across the gargoyles for the first time, Batman would not leap from the gargoyles leaving the game soft locked. > I think code like that would be a super creative alternative to drm. I just never heard of anyone else trying something like that. Interesting indeed. After reading through the DAZ forums regarding DS 4.9 it appears many are against the idea of DRM content. I'll keep a close eye over the next few months to see how it pans out.

  Writers_Block ( posted at 5:47PM Fri, 30 October 2015 

Well I've just asked for a large refund, I don't like how it's being handled. I'm not against them protecting their products, I'm against them refusing to answer how we can be sure we won't lose access to it. Way too many posts have been removed.

  Khory_D ( posted at 7:14PM Fri, 30 October 2015 

"I am not so sure on the cloud side it is a wait and see." Why? Nothing bad has happened with DIM and it is the exact same sort of cloud set up. "I'm not against them protecting their products, I'm against them refusing to answer how we can be sure we won't lose access to it." I'm not sure how many more ways they have to say stuff. First, you can always keep using DIM or zips. Second, the only way you lose access is if something goes wrong on your computer. Pretty much the same kind of goes wrong that would nuke the serial number in the program itself. Once you have the content on your computer its there till you remove it. The cloud stores content you have not yet installed or have removed. If you install it it is on your computer. This is basically the same exact set up as DIM that people have been using for several years now. The only big change is ease of use for those of us who want that.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  LPR001 ( posted at 7:57PM Fri, 30 October 2015 

@Writers_Block With Daz or any Biz/Co if you entered a contract to purchase goods between this date and that date and clicked agree you have purchased them under those rules and conditions as with any business transaction you keep your records and a copy of the agreed terms. I have always had a good run with Daz and do rate them highly with their conduct and if I have had an issue which is only a handful in all these years it has always gone in my favour and they have fixed the issue. I am sure Daz are getting the message loud and clear about people's feelings and I seriously doubt they are going to block access to a customer's previous purchases nor was it ever their intention. Besides if they did I would just say "Don't make me jump in my Volkswagen and head down there to sort this out" they will know I am already ticked off and on the warpath. I have spent a lot of money on content there and I fully expect that content to remain in my possession long after this all dies down

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:35PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 8:48PM Fri, 30 October 2015

_"Using your line of reasoning, if I see a mushroom I should eat it without seconds thoughts, since it is known that there are edible mushrooms around... I don't know why but I have some gut feeling that there is something wrong somewhere in this strategy..."_ Using your own line of reasoning someone says "aliens are coming" I should rush to the store and buy tin foil and start practicing my hat making skills. I prefer relying on rationality and practical reasoning to determine the difference between a field mushroom and fly agaric. Ref: [The sky is falling](http://www.worldstory.net/en/stories/chicken_little.html) _______________ _"DRM using the cloud is definitely not for me, and neither is a subscription service."_ For a start who said anything about Subscriptions and DS. Basically using DIM is using a form of cloud server... Did you have any issue with DIM? So I take it you don't game, use modern software or buy music? All of these feature forms of DRM and cloud servers. Ref: [Cloud Computing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_computing) _______________ "Does DAZ have the resources to commit a full time team protect its encryption? How will this impact the overall goal of improving the render capabilities?" Currently Daz and Renderosity and other products have a security level of 0. Thats right 'keys left in the ignition' ripe for harvest from anyone who can download a file and reupload to Warez. This step isn't about restriction of use or even defeating a pirate armada, it's about taking the key out of the ignition and locking the doors. Making it just that bit harder for a pirate to casually steal what they will. As far as render capabilities 4.9 has improvements in both Iray and 3Delight. _______________ _"What you can do is tell them you won't be punished for being a loyal user when their "anti-piracy" measures will only hamper your ability to use the content you pay for."_ So your hampered in which way by using Daz Connect may I ask? So you don't believe in any Anti piracy measures at all, wow, let me ask do you have a firewall on your computer? ... ____________________ _Can I install that content, where I want it to? And what if I decide to upgrade my hardware every 6 months?_ Yes you can set Daz Connect to install where you want you just need to do your organisation of products within studio now and not by using the OS as a database manager. You're free to upgrade as much as you like you can backup and migrate your database and you just need to initialise your new version of DS when installed on your new machine _______________ _"If they do offer an offline only version, that will be the way to go for me."_ It's already there instead of logging in when launching DS 4.9 just tick work offline. _______________ _"Regarding DRM. It's been tried, tested and has failed where music and video content is concerned so I can't see it working for DAZ. I'll give it a week or two before the hackers and crackers reverse engineer the files and post them online."_ Really? well it should be no issue to name a movie or music or game online supplier that uses no form of DRM then right? How long would it take the Hackers and crackers to get onto your system if they wanted? Do you take any precautions on your own system or posessions to make it more difficult for theft if it was attempted. Why should Daz3D not do the same. If reasonable measure can be taken to make theft more difficult why should they not be taken? _______________ _"I think it may have been the first Batman game, Arkham Asylum, they purposely coded a bug that would reproduce if the game detected that it was illegal."_ This is a form of DRM, so are code wheels and Manual word references, DRM can refer to any means digital or physical used to protect the rights of an digital contents owner. [What is DRM?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management) _______________ _"I'm against them refusing to answer how we can be sure we won't lose access to it."_ I have seen this answered numerous times on the Daz Forums developers and moderators are participating in at least three threads I know of answering and even listening to issues, let me ask you how can you reassure me we all won't die tomorrow in a massive global earthquake? Better still can you guarantee me it won't happen ever? Your refund just punished a load of PA's that's all. So you're not against them protecting their product just against them actually protecting their product. May I ask what you would do differently to protect content in this industry? Daz3D have outlayed plans for a strategy for dealing with worst case scenarios such as Daz3D disappearing overnight which which would be in the form of a failsafe that unlocks all encryption on products.


  chaecuna ( posted at 8:38PM Fri, 30 October 2015 

[LPR001](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=777635) posted at 2:12AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236072](#msg4236072) > and I fully expect that content to remain in my possession long after this all dies down Until the deal is further altered. If DAZ manages to impose this step, they can (and will) go further down the software-as-service road. The "logical" next step is everything-is-"free" but then you have to pay a small amount whenever you try to render or export a scene. It is not far fetched, it is like what happens in pay-per-view video services where you have to pay whenever you watch a movie, regardless of whether you have already watched in the past (contrast with buying a DVD and then being able to watch the movie without further costs, as many times as you like). Perversely, there is a positive side in this story. Up to a couple of days ago, I considered Richard Stallman insistence on free-as-speech (w.r.t. to just free-as-beer) extremist, almost taliban-like. I have now realized that this stance is instead fundamental, because it means that, as long as you deal with free-as-speech tools and content, you are never at risk of waking up in the morning at the sound of a big, black-clad brute, wheezing that the "deal has been altered". The time and money I invest in e.g. Blender or GIMP won't go down the drain tomorrow at the wim of some PHB/marketdroid/bean counter and therefore... back to my project of a library of Cycles shaders for rendering Poser/Studio characters into Blender, the first step to kiss everybody (SM and DAZ) bye bye.

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:57PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 9:05PM Fri, 30 October 2015

[chaecuna](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=721469) posted at 12:52PM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236079](#msg4236079) > [LPR001](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=777635) posted at 2:12AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236072](#msg4236072) > > > and I fully expect that content to remain in my possession long after this all dies down > > Until the deal is further altered. > > If DAZ manages to impose this step, they can (and will) go further down the software-as-service road. The "logical" next step is everything-is-"free" but then you have to pay a small amount whenever you try to render or export a scene. It is not far fetched, it is like what happens in pay-per-view video services where you have to pay whenever you watch a movie, regardless of whether you have already watched in the past (contrast with buying a DVD and then being able to watch the movie without further costs, as many times as you like). > Wow, this would be a nightmare to work out payments for the PA's that create the majority of products at DAZ3D, nightmarish to the point of making it actually completely unworkable or even impossible. A full analysis of every scene rendered by every user, then a breakdown of which items were more important in the scene (Psychical Artistic analysis of each complete render), a breakdown would then need to be generated across up to a potential of 100's of different PA's work in every scene rendered by every user 100,000's of time a day. Sounds like it would need a computer bigger than the NSA... All with the potential of making less money for each PA and DAZ3D as a whole with massive implementation costs. Any proof for this or just more sky is falling talk?.. See above reference... > Perversely, there is a positive side in this story. Up to a couple of days ago, I considered Richard Stallman insistence on free-as-speech (w.r.t. to just free-as-beer) extremist, almost taliban-like. I have now realized that this stance is instead fundamental, because it means that, as long as you deal with free-as-speech tools and content, you are never at risk of waking up in the morning at the sound of a big, black-clad brute, wheezing that the "deal has been altered". The time and money I invest in e.g. Blender or GIMP won't go down the drain tomorrow at the wim of some PHB/marketdroid/bean counter and therefore... back to my project of a library of Cycles shaders for rendering Poser/Studio characters into Blender, the first step to kiss everybody (SM and DAZ) bye bye. Nothing is %100 guaranteed in life. Even life itself. SO the first step to kissing SM and DAZ goodbye is working out how to implement SM and DAZ3D figures into Blender. I see. Seems that using Blender without SM or DAZ3D figures or making your own would be the first step? Or am I oversimplifying...


  JasonGalterio ( posted at 9:38PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 9:39PM Fri, 30 October 2015

I have said more than my fair share on the official site's thread... but consider this... DAZ has had a very questionable history of non-communication, double talk, and out right going back on their own promises. It should surprise no one, them least of all, that customers are assuming the worst from this development. Their roll out / announcement of it was bungled, again, and started the paranoia fire. They compounded the issue by being heavy handed with the message deletion and mod modification. I have no proof of it, but I am willing to bet that last year's price increases are the cause of this year's DRM plans. Prices goes up, sales go down, piracy increases because the perceived value has increased, discounts become more extreme, the sale price brings the new increased price down to the old prices. The vicious circle just feeds on itself. The executive that came up with the plan to raise the prices can't blame the downturn in revenue on their increase the price policy, so pirates are blamed. All of this is theoretical conjecture on my part. Am I saying piracy is not a problem? No. Am I saying that DAZ shouldn't find a way to protect the PAs and their assets? No. Am I saying that DAZ has completed effed up the roll out? Yes. They poisoned the well before the water was even drawn. They snuck out this new direction and acted like they had something to hide. So no one should be surprised that customers are questioning the motivation as well as the future direction of their plans. You know what is not theoretical? All the previous broken promises. Selling DS4 for an extreme amount of money, then turning around and giving it away for free a month later. Promising there would be no more "barn burner" sales, then having one six months later. I've been a DAZ customer for, I believe, 20 years, since the Zygote days. I've been through Metacreations meltdown. The Corel days. I was there when Canoma was unveiled. etc. etc. I've been up and down this roller coaster so often that I am use to almost all of the bumps and curves.

  Razor42 ( posted at 10:12PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 10:21PM Fri, 30 October 2015

Content Advisory! Language advisory.

I believe the price increases were due to nothing more sinister than inflation. There had not been a generalised price increase for well over a decade before that. Does any other form of goods you know have that stability of pricing for such long terms? It really wouldn't of mattered how a lot of the things you have described were handled, some people would still have adverse reactions regardless to the implementations such as DS becoming free, Piracy protection, etc. When DS became free if they said anyone who purchased in the last 6 months will receive a full refund, people who were 6 months and 1 day would be pissed, no? In my experience even a company which is totally transparent, A Nobel prize winning communicator, entirely direct and forthright in every aspect will still have critics and detractors. If you have stuck with DAZ3D for 20 years they must be doing something right, no? I have had posts deleted from the Daz Forum threads on 4.9 and for the sake of clarity of the thread I welcome the sweep throughs by the mods on those threads, as they were becoming bloated and unwieldly to the point of being useless as information resources.


  JasonGalterio ( posted at 10:33PM Fri, 30 October 2015 

Actually most of your points are incorrect. Or at least stretching the truth to suit your position. Prices... The prices use to be a lot higher. Then dropped for a while. They stabilized for a few years. Then started an increase trend last year. For example, in 2004 when I purchased the Millennium Dragon it was $99 for just the model, texture and poses. V3 with just the head and body morphs was $79. The prices went down. Then the ship started to loose direction. Lots of different things were thrown at the wall to see what would work. For a while, these were good. Innovations. Investments that yielded new products. That's how we got DAZ Studio. Back then there was no such beast. It came about because of a spat with whoever happened to be the owner of Poser at that time. Then things started to get bad. Barn burner sales. Overnight changes in direction. Lack of communication. At three points it got so bad that I stepped away for years at a time. Then it stabilized for a while. Things seemed to be improving. Then the ship lost direction again last year. Things thrown at the wall. 3D printing. Gaming licenses. etc. etc. None of them really seeming to work out. Here's a secret for you... When DS went free; they were giving out refunds. You had to call them directly and plead your case. This happened repeatedly. DS4. The Auto Fit tool. Carrara Pro. The Supersuit bundle. etc. etc. Yes, some people would have had a bad reaction no matter what. But if the things in the past hadn't happened, then the number of people having a bad reaction right now would probably be a lot less.

  Razor42 ( posted at 10:48PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 10:48PM Fri, 30 October 2015

_"Then it stabilized for a while. Things seemed to be improving. Then the ship lost direction again last year. Things thrown at the wall. 3D printing. Gaming licenses. etc. etc. None of them really seeming to work out."_ Forgive me but is not the basis of innovation, being brave enough to attempt new idea and markets whether successful or not. I would hardly consider any of these things as "lost direction' in fact the gaming licences lead directly to Morph3D. The issue with 3D printing isnt Daz3D its that 3D printing is in its infancy as an industry, with no steady suppliers of machines, consumables or maintenance available globally. So just to recap you stated you think maybe DRM influenced last years price increase. I can tell you from the information I have that is not the case it was mainly motivated by inflation factors.


  Male_M3dia ( posted at 11:00PM Fri, 30 October 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:55PM Fri, 30 October 2015 - [#4236093](#msg4236093) > So just to recap you stated you think maybe DRM influenced last years price increase. I can tell you from the information I have that is not the case it was mainly motivated by inflation factors. Razor is correct. Nothing sinister happened, the issue is products were undervalued (especially with inflation), with some instances of some vendors undercutting or devaluing their own products. Seems like all the forums across the DAZ-verse are rife with speculation these last few days.

  JasonGalterio ( posted at 11:24PM Fri, 30 October 2015 

You say inflation, I say self inflicted wound. Repeatedly having these insane, nonsensical sales that they didn't even understand the ramifications of. I have ranted about the "cutesy" gimmicky sales for what seems like decade now. Discounts go up, base price goes up. The actual purchase price remained the same. They created a customer base that knows not to buy at full price. The average customer knows to buy early on sale or to wait for a sale to come along. I am willing to bet the items selling at the full base price are an extreme minority of all sales. And yes, trying new things is the definition of innovation. However trying a half a dozen different things at the same time and not really putting much effort into all of them... That is what the average customer sees. Then not communicating only leads to more speculation. At the very least you can admit that their handling of this fiasco has been piss poor. The communication is coming through the forum in a mostly non-official way. Messages containing promises being made by DAZ employees seem to be getting altered or just disappearing. There is no official statement on any part of the site other than the forum. There doesn't appear to be a road map for where this ride is heading. Because of this, the speculation begins. Speculation then leads to rumors. Rumors then lead to accusations of wrong doing. Certain DAZ employees are doing an admirable job of trying to reassure customers. However no one knows if they are speaking in any sort of official capacity. No one knows if they can be trusted. Or if they even have the real story from their higher ups. Why all of the distrust? Because of all the broken promises and non-communication of the past. I don't begrudge you, or anyone else, for wanting to protect your assets. I would be livid if all my hard work was pirated on a regular basis. However DRM is notoriously bad. It doesn't stop the pirates. It barely even slows them down. Most of the time it just annoys the legitimate users. It serves no positive purpose to anyone. The scheme they have come up with will not protect your assets. It will not stop the pirates. It will not increase sales. It will just be a waste of resources. It also doesn't help when, to the average customer, it appears to already be bungled in the roll out. I know beta testing is meant to address this and refine the effort. However so far this just smells of a half baked effort. It doesn't appear to have been completely thought through. Particularly when developers are saying things like "we didn't think of that. And this is important enough that I am going in on my day off to work on it." Yes, on one hand it is reassuring that it is being taken that seriously. On the other hand it makes people nervous that something so important was completely overlooked. I am being objective. I am not being irrational. I am not threatening to never buy another DAZ product. I am not screaming for anyone's blood. I don't feel betrayed. I am taking a wait and see position. However I am not optimistic that it will end well. DAZ has a track record of trying these new things. Setting off down the path. Then just giving up without getting to the destination. Leaving behind a half completed project that we have to suffer with. All I ask of you is this... How will you feel if your first release with DRM is pirated just as quickly as the previous releases. And, ontop of that, the sales are less because of said DRM? I would think that if my worst fears are realized, you would not continue creating or selling things through DAZ. You would be foolish to do so if you were continually loosing money. So you stop. And who looses? DAZ does, they've lost assets they could sell. The customer looses because they can no longer purchase your items. You loose because of the lost revenue. No one wins. Do I think this worst case scenario is going to happen? No. Is the potential there? Yes. Again, I am taking a wait and see position to see how things shake out once it goes live. I don't have any plans of using DAZ Connect because it really offers me no benefits. I don't use Smart Content. I am happy using DIM to update, in fact I run DIM every morning to check for updates.

  JasonGalterio ( posted at 11:38PM Fri, 30 October 2015 

[Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 12:30AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236094](#msg4236094) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:55PM Fri, 30 October 2015 - [#4236093](#msg4236093) > > > So just to recap you stated you think maybe DRM influenced last years price increase. I can tell you from the information I have that is not the case it was mainly motivated by inflation factors. > > Razor is correct. Nothing sinister happened, the issue is products were undervalued (especially with inflation), with some instances of some vendors undercutting or devaluing their own products. Seems like all the forums across the DAZ-verse are rife with speculation these last few days. I never said there was something sinister going on. I merely said I understood why some people would think there is. And speculation occurs when there is no official information. Which is the case now. Comments buried in a forum is not a very good way to official announce such a monumental change. When I originally bought my items, I bought them without DRM. I am not too keen on having DRM inserted into them after the fact. That right there is a questionable tactic to take. Am I going to cry foul over it? Nope. It's not important enough to me at the moment. However I might change my opinion when it actually happens and I see the results. I believe Razor used the car sale analogy over on the other thread. So I am going to use that here... Adding DRM after the fact is like my taking my car in for service and finding that they added new locks to the car without asking me. Maybe a fingerprint sensor that would keep anyone else from starting my car even if they had the keys. But then what happens if I am 500 miles from home and the fingerprint scanner breaks? I don't think I would be too happy if I was stranded and not able to start my car...

  JasonGalterio ( posted at 11:48PM Fri, 30 October 2015 

Last comment before I log off... I did some quick research earlier this evening. I found that I spent just over $10k USD at DAZ since June of 2013. I have no idea if that is a lot or nothing compared to the average DAZ customer, but to me that is a lot of money. Particularly for a hobby. It's almost half the price of a decent car. I don't even want to think about what my total spent is. I have 967 orders on record with DAZ. I only went back 400 of them as part of this exercise. Considering that I think I am being really calm concerning this out of the blue change.

  Razor42 ( posted at 12:10AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

I think perspective and as you have described rationality are pretty key assets for this situation. Unfortunately in a lot of cases both are in short supply. The level of DRM we're talking about here is no more intrusive than itunes or many, many other online content providers. To the average user it will be pretty much be unnoticeable, to the average pirate the first hurdle ever put in place to attempt to protect this kind of product. No one thinks this is a silver bullet for piracy, but to do nothing is to just let even the most novice of individual free to exploit this content, however they please with NO barriers in doing so. To hackers and crackers potentially a challenge for their ego. Unfortunately perception to the customer is any protection on top of No protection is a big jump even if it has minimal impact and appears rather threatening. To basically say pirates are too good we can never win. So let's not bother may work for multi billion dollar industries but for niche markets it could be the difference between survival and going under if not **mitigated** adequately in the long term. DAZ3D has more to lose from piracy then say a store like Renderosity as DAZ3D it has a lot more financially invested in the development and the future of the industry. Renderosity can mitigate the loss as they really have no actual investment in content, programs or future developments of the industry. Wait and see is the nature of most business these day when trying something new, but those that fail to move forward are inevitably falling behind. Risk and innovation go hand in hand. And other cliches... Personally whatever the long term outcome is, I'm glad that DAZ3D are attempting to make a difference into what content creators & creatives globally see as one of the primary threats to their livelihoods. To do otherwise would display more a lack of care and consideration of their contributors to just accept this as collateral loss. As far as piss poor handling, I guess that's a matter of personal opinion, but remember this is a beta phase for DS not an official version release.


  Male_M3dia ( posted at 12:12AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

[JasonGalterio](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=711010) posted at 1:08AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236099](#msg4236099) > Last comment before I log off... > > I did some quick research earlier this evening. I found that I spent just over $10k USD at DAZ since June of 2013. I have no idea if that is a lot or nothing compared to the average DAZ customer, but to me that is a lot of money. Particularly for a hobby. It's almost half the price of a decent car. > > I don't even want to think about what my total spent is. I have 967 orders on record with DAZ. I only went back 400 of them as part of this exercise. > > Considering that I think I am being really calm concerning this out of the blue change. That's all you spent? I have over almost 1300 orders and I sell. And as far as speculating, I would suggest waiting and getting all the information before getting too upset.

  Razor42 ( posted at 12:14AM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 12:24AM Sat, 31 October 2015

[JasonGalterio](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=711010) posted at 4:11PM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236099](#msg4236099) > Last comment before I log off... > > I did some quick research earlier this evening. I found that I spent just over $10k USD at DAZ since June of 2013. I have no idea if that is a lot or nothing compared to the average DAZ customer, but to me that is a lot of money. Particularly for a hobby. It's almost half the price of a decent car. > > I don't even want to think about what my total spent is. I have 967 orders on record with DAZ. I only went back 400 of them as part of this exercise. > > Considering that I think I am being really calm concerning this out of the blue change. All I can say is that people are listening to your concerns and that there is a middle ground between asset protection and freedom of accessibility and usage for customers. Lets hope DAZ3D can nail it and your concerns are deemed unwarranted in the future. But as you said only the future will reveal all.


  LPR001 ( posted at 12:16AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

Keep a level head Guys and Girls too much speculation and that is all it is. Please make sure respect is shown here to each other but you are all going very well considering a few raw nerves and concerns at the moment. I know us humans don't like to let the facts get in the way of a good story. @JasonGalterio it is not to happen like this. Daz is the last company on my system to go DRM, Please do not spend your weekend believing your 10K of products are under any threat. A company can't sell you products for close to 3 years under set terms then come knocking on your door to take it back because of a policy change. If you are worried do a backup of your entire library on an external drive. This is not needed but you might feel more confident your stuff is going nowhere then. Razor42 has made a very valid point. When you log into 4.9 there is the clearly visible "Work Offline" option. Now that would not be there if half your fears were going to come into play.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Khory_D ( posted at 12:20AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

_Until the deal is further altered. If DAZ manages to impose this step, they can (and will) go further down the software-as-service road. The "logical" next step is everything-is-"free" but then you have to pay a small amount whenever you try to render or export a scene. It is not far fetched, it is like what happens in pay-per-view video services where you have to pay whenever you watch a movie, regardless of whether you have already watched in the past (contrast with buying a DVD and then being able to watch the movie without further costs, as many times as you like)._ That is totally baseless and pretty clearly conjectured with out any knowledge of how a brokerage functions. _Prices... The prices use to be a lot higher. Then dropped for a while. They stabilized for a few years. Then started an increase trend last year. For example, in 2004 when I purchased the Millennium Dragon it was $99 for just the model, texture and poses. V3 with just the head and body morphs was $79. The prices went down. Then the ship started to loose direction. Lots of different things were thrown at the wall to see what would work. For a while, these were good. Innovations. Investments that yielded new products. That's how we got DAZ Studio. Back then there was no such beast. It came about because of a spat with whoever happened to be the owner of Poser at that time. Then things started to get bad. Barn burner sales. Overnight changes in direction. Lack of communication. At three points it got so bad that I stepped away for years at a time. Then it stabilized for a while. Things seemed to be improving. Then the ship lost direction again last year. Things thrown at the wall. 3D printing. Gaming licenses. etc. etc. None of them really seeming to work out. Here's a secret for you... When DS went free; they were giving out refunds. You had to call them directly and plead your case. This happened repeatedly. DS4. The Auto Fit tool. Carrara Pro. The Supersuit bundle. etc. etc. Yes, some people would have had a bad reaction no matter what. But if the things in the past hadn't happened, then the number of people having a bad reaction right now would probably be a lot less._ Not a spat.. a very real fear that the program would be turned into abandon ware as it was passed from hand to hand. Actually... when Daz started to have an active and involved marketing team things started to improve. Daz is much stronger and the PA's much more financially secure now than in the past. 3D printing was always expected to be a down the road thing but it would have served no purpose to not get in some testing and so forth on it. Gaming licenses may not have had the impact you were looking for but it helped them work out the direction to go with Morph3d. Charging for Studio was one of the few miss steps they have made and that was before most of the current Admin staff was in the positions they are. Thankfully they course corrected and once again is a very successful marketing tool. It can't have been too big a hit since they have been able to afford to do some pretty major expansions since then. I can think of a few people who have carried on like they were dumped by a lover after the return to free but most people are not quite so prone to a highly personal grudge long term like that.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 12:25AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 1:15AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236101](#msg4236101) > I think perspective and as you have described rationality are pretty key assets for this situation. Unfortunately in a lot of cases both are in short supply. > > The level of DRM we're talking about here is no more intrusive than itunes or many, many other online content providers. To the average user it will be pretty much be unnoticeable, to the average pirate the first hurdle ever put in place to attempt to protect this kind of product. No one thinks this is a silver bullet for piracy, but to do nothing is to just let even the most novice of individual free to exploit this content, however they please with NO barriers in doing so. To hackers and crackers potentially a challenge for their ego. > > Unfortunately perception to the customer is any protection on top of No protection is a big jump even if it has minimal impact and appears rather threatening. To basically say pirates are too good we can never win. So let's not bother may work for multi billion dollar industries but for niche markets it could be the difference between survival and going under if not **mitigated** adequately in the long term. > > DAZ3D has more to lose from piracy then say a store like Renderosity as DAZ3D it has a lot more financially invested in the development and the future of the industry. Renderosity can mitigate the loss as they really have no actual investment in content, programs or future developments of the industry. > > Wait and see is the nature of most business these day when trying something new, but those that fail to move forward are inevitably falling behind. Risk and innovation go hand in hand. And other cliches... Personally whatever the long term outcome is, I'm glad that DAZ3D are attempting to make a difference into what content creators & creatives globally see as one of the primary threats to their livelihoods. To do otherwise would display more a lack of care and consideration of their contributors to just accept this as collateral loss. > > As far as piss poor handling, I guess that's a matter of personal opinion, but remember this is a beta phase for DS not an official version release. I'm not wild about the whole DRM thing however, I'm less wild about seeing mine and other vendor's products being dropped on warez sites by users wanting to increase their download ratios, and when I send the DMCA notices to those sites they're now ignored. Unfortunately it's at a point where there needs to be some type of middle ground because not doing anything is simply not an option. It would be like you making an image that you're proud of, someone steals it and drops it on a paid gallery that you receive no compensation or credit for. Do you try to keep that from happening or you just shrug and say "Those are the breaks." ? Is it a perfect solution? Not in the least, but ignoring the issue and doing nothing to slow it down isn't an option either.

  JasonGalterio ( posted at 6:14AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

You have all pretty much said the same thing regarding the DRM... It's something, but it's not really going to work. It's a mathematical equation. On one side is the customer. On the other side is the pirate. The more effective the DRM is at stopping the pirate, the more inconvenient it is for the customer. This equation will remain the same until there is some sort of shift in the fundamental nature of DRM. It wasn't that long ago that the most effective DRM / website security was a Secure Key issued to every customer. Those keychain devices with the rotating numbers... But then some hacker was able to work out the algorithm the key chains were using. And everything went into disarray. My point is two fold. No protection is bullet proof. And there are better steps to use resources on. And some of my pictures have been used just like described. And I did just shrug and go oh well. I do this as a hobby. I don't expect to make money from it. I never have. I put them out there and I move on. There is absolutely nothing I can do to stop people who have no regard for others efforts. Just like my DRM equation above anything I do to stop unauthorized use (watermarks, reduced resolutions, etc.) has a negative impact on the legitimate viewers. I have also had people to ask me to remove watermarks from pictures they want to use but don't want to pay for. I have refused and attempted to educate those people about what they were doing. Did they get it? No, because it is impossible for them to grasp a concept so simple unless it impacts them directly. Again, as I have stated repeatedly, I am relatively calm right now. I am not worrying about it. I am waiting to see what happens before I crystalize my position. Do I think my worst case scenarios will happen? No. I say them in the hopes that they don't happen. I hope that someone will see those thoughts and realize the idiocy of going down that path. However I do have a personal motto that helps me deal with similar situations: "Never discount the impact of stupidity." Even the smartest person can make stupid decisions. Even the stupidest person can somehow end up in a position where they are making important decisions. The stupidest idea can be made to look ground breaking. And the most ground breaking idea can be made to look stupid. My fear is that somewhere up the DAZ leadership change there is that executive that exists in every company. The one that thinks he knows everything and is going to fix every ill of the company. The one that has no idea what the company sells or who the customers are. The executive that worked at the widget factory down the block and is going to deal with this company just the same way.He is going to make profit for DAZ come hell or high water. People who disagree with his (or her) plans get steamrolled. Logic is thrown out the window. The self-destruction begins as the quality and the customer base erodes. Etc etc. I've been down that path with DAZ before. Some of you even allude to points in the past where that was going on. All I am saying is that I hope this isn't another one of those stages.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 6:42AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

[JasonGalterio](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=711010) posted at 7:39AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236128](#msg4236128) > You have all pretty much said the same thing regarding the DRM... It's something, but it's not really going to work. > > It's a mathematical equation. On one side is the customer. On the other side is the pirate. The more effective the DRM is at stopping the pirate, the more inconvenient it is for the customer. This equation will remain the same until there is some sort of shift in the fundamental nature of DRM. > > It wasn't that long ago that the most effective DRM / website security was a Secure Key issued to every customer. Those keychain devices with the rotating numbers... But then some hacker was able to work out the algorithm the key chains were using. And everything went into disarray. > > My point is two fold. No protection is bullet proof. And there are better steps to use resources on. > > And some of my pictures have been used just like described. And I did just shrug and go oh well. I do this as a hobby. I don't expect to make money from it. I never have. I put them out there and I move on. There is absolutely nothing I can do to stop people who have no regard for others efforts. Just like my DRM equation above anything I do to stop unauthorized use (watermarks, reduced resolutions, etc.) has a negative impact on the legitimate viewers. > > I have also had people to ask me to remove watermarks from pictures they want to use but don't want to pay for. I have refused and attempted to educate those people about what they were doing. Did they get it? No, because it is impossible for them to grasp a concept so simple unless it impacts them directly. > > Again, as I have stated repeatedly, I am relatively calm right now. I am not worrying about it. I am waiting to see what happens before I crystalize my position. > > Do I think my worst case scenarios will happen? No. I say them in the hopes that they don't happen. I hope that someone will see those thoughts and realize the idiocy of going down that path. > > However I do have a personal motto that helps me deal with similar situations: "Never discount the impact of stupidity." > > Even the smartest person can make stupid decisions. Even the stupidest person can somehow end up in a position where they are making important decisions. The stupidest idea can be made to look ground breaking. And the most ground breaking idea can be made to look stupid. > > My fear is that somewhere up the DAZ leadership change there is that executive that exists in every company. The one that thinks he knows everything and is going to fix every ill of the company. The one that has no idea what the company sells or who the customers are. The executive that worked at the widget factory down the block and is going to deal with this company just the same way.He is going to make profit for DAZ come hell or high water. People who disagree with his (or her) plans get steamrolled. Logic is thrown out the window. The self-destruction begins as the quality and the customer base erodes. Etc etc. > > I've been down that path with DAZ before. Some of you even allude to points in the past where that was going on. All I am saying is that I hope this isn't another one of those stages. We haven't said it wasn't going to work. What we have said is what is happening now doesn't work, and doing nothing doesn't work. So there needs to be some middle ground so it's not so easy for someone to just drop it on a site without any repercussion.

  JasonGalterio ( posted at 7:19AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

You want to protect your work? Then don't sell it. That is the only DRM that works. You want to make money from your work? Then someone else is going to want to take that money from you. You want to sell your work? Then someone else is going to want it for free. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management Saying doing nothing is not an answer is rubbish and has been proven wrong: In January 2007, EMI stopped publishing audio CDs with DRM, stating that "the costs of DRM do not measure up to the results." Following EMI, Sony BMG was the last publisher to abolish DRM completely, and audio CDs containing DRM are no longer released by the four largest commercial record label companies. Saying DRM will protect anything is also rubbish: As widely repeated, Blu Ray DRM was supposed to provide ten years of protection. It was broken in less than a few months. Saying that users won't be prevented from using their legitimate purchases is rubbish: Many DRM systems require authentication with an online server. Whenever the server goes down, or a region or country experiences an Internet outage, it effectively locks out people from registering or using the material. This is especially true for a product that requires a persistent online authentication, where, for example, a successful DDoS attack on the server would essentially make all copies of the material unusable. I am not going to bother copying any other text, but there is all section of that article dedicated to why DRM actually results in the inverse of what is being attempted. I will believe that this will work when you tell me that DAZ has invested more money into this scheme than those who have tried and failed already. The truth of the matter is most companies are moving away from DRM. The ones that are still using it (Steam for example) have their hiccups but are significantly bigger than DAZ with more resources to reassure customers. _**"So there needs to be some middle ground so it's not so easy for someone to just drop it on a site without any repercussion."**_ Bingo. And so far, that isn't what this is. "Minimal protection" means its still going to be pretty easy to break. There is still no repercussions as you, yourself, stated that your efforts to remove items with DCMA complaints have failed. So now try to look at it from the point of a customer: DAZ invests resources in instituting DRM. DAZ says DRM will protect their assets (proven not to be true). Customer then mentally does the math. Investment occurred, it's not buying what the seller says, so what is the seller not saying? What is the investment actually meant to purchase? Then the speculation feeds on itself.

  JasonGalterio ( posted at 7:37AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

Here's a thought to consider.... Want to protect your assets? For the first six months that new products are released, lock them down hard. Issue a dongle that proves identity. Or a secure keychain that requires a log on. Or an secure key app that provides a cycling code. Or make users renew their decrypt key every two or three days. Or keep some of the model code on a server and make the user refresh that code every two or three days. No minimal security. Lock it down just as tight as possible. Then, after six months, unlock it and leave it decrypted. Forget the old products that have already been released. They are already out there. Those cows are out of the barn. Trying to corral them back in is a waste of resources. People don't want to buy DRM content? Wait six months. People are worried that Godzilla will nuke Salt Lake City? You only loose access to items bought in the last six months instead of forever. Just don't try to sell me a 1976 Nova and claim that it is as safe and reliable as a 2015 Toyota.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 7:46AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

[JasonGalterio](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=711010) posted at 8:31AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236140](#msg4236140) > You want to protect your work? Then don't sell it. That is the only DRM that works. > > You want to make money from your work? Then someone else is going to want to take that money from you. > > You want to sell your work? Then someone else is going to want it for free. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management > > Saying doing nothing is not an answer is rubbish and has been proven wrong: In January 2007, EMI stopped publishing audio CDs with DRM, stating that "the costs of DRM do not measure up to the results." Following EMI, Sony BMG was the last publisher to abolish DRM completely, and audio CDs containing DRM are no longer released by the four largest commercial record label companies. > > Saying DRM will protect anything is also rubbish: As widely repeated, Blu Ray DRM was supposed to provide ten years of protection. It was broken in less than a few months. > > Saying that users won't be prevented from using their legitimate purchases is rubbish: Many DRM systems require authentication with an online server. Whenever the server goes down, or a region or country experiences an Internet outage, it effectively locks out people from registering or using the material. This is especially true for a product that requires a persistent online authentication, where, for example, a successful DDoS attack on the server would essentially make all copies of the material unusable. > > I am not going to bother copying any other text, but there is all section of that article dedicated to why DRM actually results in the inverse of what is being attempted. > > I will believe that this will work when you tell me that DAZ has invested more money into this scheme than those who have tried and failed already. The truth of the matter is most companies are moving away from DRM. The ones that are still using it (Steam for example) have their hiccups but are significantly bigger than DAZ with more resources to reassure customers. > > _**"So there needs to be some middle ground so it's not so easy for someone to just drop it on a site without any repercussion."**_ > > Bingo. And so far, that isn't what this is. "Minimal protection" means its still going to be pretty easy to break. There is still no repercussions as you, yourself, stated that your efforts to remove items with DCMA complaints have failed. > > So now try to look at it from the point of a customer: > > DAZ invests resources in instituting DRM. DAZ says DRM will protect their assets (proven not to be true). Customer then mentally does the math. Investment occurred, it's not buying what the seller says, so what is the seller not saying? What is the investment actually meant to purchase? Then the speculation feeds on itself. Unfortunately the world doesn't work like that. Things will continue to be sold, and there will need to be ways to protect assets regardless of what some people feel. So if you don't want to buy protected assets and programs you are free to make your own. But considering every software company has some type of protection in place, your argument really doesn't make sense. And as I said before, I am also a customer that has more assets than most people people complaining. So I do understand from both sides, since I do both: assets need to be easy to use, but also some type of protection needs to be in place to reduce theft, hence the middle ground. I keep my software licenses current for the work I do, and I also buy assets for my work, and I also see the impact of them having absolutely no protection so people can just upload them and share them with no regard for license. Also it's also increasingly hard to remove copyrighted works when you submit a claim, they get ignored by many sites now. Unfortunately this isn't something that no one else in digital world does, and this is where it's heading. The goal is to make it where transparent to the user where you are doing the same things legally that you've been doing with your content. Since no one has any encrypted content yet, it's pointless to speculate that it's some evil draconian scheme like some of the other products some have bought that really gave DRM a bad name.

  JasonGalterio ( posted at 8:18AM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 8:19AM Sat, 31 October 2015

Male_M3dia will you please stop implying that I am claiming that there is some sort of secret DAZ illuminati plan going on here? You are flame baiting and I am not going to bite. In fact, I am going to stop addressing you. To elaborate on my previous thought, in the hope that someone from DAZ might read it... I am not anti-DRM. I am anti-pointless DRM. Which is what I am reading into statements like "minimal security." My suggestion is this.... Every customer gets two keys. The first key is a generic this is customer "A" sort of key. Has to be renewed every thirty days, which is pretty typical for most DRM items. The second key is a more specific key, possibly one for each product. This key has to be renewed every two or three days. I buy a new product on it's release day. The product is encoded to my customer key and I receive a specific product key for it. When I add the product to a scene, the keys are checked. If my keys are invalid, the product doesn't de-crypt. If my keys are out of date, either one of them, then the product adds into the scene (so that I can still compose a project) but I am not able to export or render that scene. After six months the product is updated to remove the security and the keys are no longer needed. 1. This provides DRM with some actual teeth. Something that might actually deter a pirate for a little longer. Maybe out beyond the six month window. 2. DRM intolerant customers have the option of waiting to purchase until the unlocked item is available. And potentially paying a premium, non-sale price. 3. DRM cautious customers will have a reassurance that in six months the product will be open. And there is no fear of a kaiju attack on Salt Lake City. 4. Customers with out of date keys are not locked out. They can still compose a scene, they just can't finalize it until their license is validated.

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:30AM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 8:35AM Sat, 31 October 2015

I'm confused. You're against minimal DRM implementation aimed at adding a first level of security to protect assets from opportunistic and casual pirates. But are suggesting the implementation of one of the harshest DRM systems I have ever heard proposed. I truly don't believe it's black and white with DRM as in it works or it doesn't. There are many levels of effectiveness and varying amounts of impact on customers. I firmly believe providing a plug and play zip file as a product package is akin to laying down a pirate party welcome mat with free jugs of rum for all.


  JasonGalterio ( posted at 8:35AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

I am against first level DRM security because it is pointless. It's going to stop your average pirate for... what, five minutes? And inconvenience customers for forever. Instead of complaining that the sky is falling. Or just complaining. I am trying to be constructive and offer additional ideas. Like I have said repeatedly, I don't begrudge any PA for wanting to protect their work. But the official path being chosen now (as I understand it) benefits no one.

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:39AM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 8:44AM Sat, 31 October 2015

I think you're overestimating the skills of the average pirate. Most pirates who share DS products in all likelihood have never even used DS and have no actual experience at breaking 64 bit encrypted files. The process in the future will also add a level of difficulty to those wanting to use pirated content in DS where at present there is none.


  Razor42 ( posted at 8:41AM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 8:43AM Sat, 31 October 2015

Some of the pirates I have dealt with I have been able to trace their digital footprints to actually find their name and address in the states. Hardly super hacker criminal masterminds,..


  JasonGalterio ( posted at 8:45AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 9:41AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236152](#msg4236152) > I think you're overestimating the skills of the average pirate. Most pirates who share DS products in all likelihood have never even used DS and have no actual experience at breaking 64 bit encrypted files. The process will also add a level of difficulty to those wanting to use pirated content in DS where at present there is none. True. But that is going to change just as soon as DAZ throws down the gauntlet. Now its going to be a challenge which will be accepted. The first broken encryption will take the longest, but I don't imagine it will be very long. After all just like most DRM the pirate will have access to both the key and the lock. Each subsequent decryption will be much faster, since the process will be known.

  JasonGalterio ( posted at 8:49AM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 8:49AM Sat, 31 October 2015

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 9:46AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236153](#msg4236153) > Some of the pirates I have dealt with I have been able to trace their digital footprints to actually find their name and address in the states. > > Hardly super hacker criminal masterminds,.. I have done the same as well, in a slightly different context. But now you've made my point... What did you do about them? Did you stop them? Were their any repercussions? Usually there are none. Why? (Forgive the reference.) It is like Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory trying to explain to the police how his Battle Ostrich in Word of Warcraft was stolen. Nothing happened because no one really knows what to do... Unfortunately to most laws these digital possessions have no intrinsic value. The laws have not caught up to reality.

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:51AM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 8:53AM Sat, 31 October 2015

Theres hardly the esteem in cracking a pair of panties for a 3D dolly as there is in say a blockbuster game, movie or program. _______________ I was tempted to send them a rattlesnake in the mail, but I would feel bad for the snake ;)


  wolf359 ( posted at 8:52AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

**"So if you don't want to buy protected assets and programs you are free to make your own."** I dont understrand the level of panic I am seeing over some future content that may have some Slight "impediments"to peoples usage. Seriosly what are you ALL actually doing with all this content that now seems threatend by DRM My NON Cloud copy of Adobe CS3 is still useful for All of my creative objectives from 2D graphic design for print to editing textures for my 3D work. My NON Cloud version of Adobe After effects CS3 with video co-pilots optical flare system and many other feature enhancing plugins ,is being used right now to colorgrade & add visual effects to my current animated film project. My discontinued version of natural motion's "Endorphin 2.7" is being used to create incredible hardbody Dynamics and ragdoll simulations that export to poser/DAZ ready BVH files. Even the most die hard DS user will not have his Artistic efforts completely neutralized/halted by DRM or.... Gasp!!! having to use the "Old" Daz studio 4.8.09 for his precious web gallery/deviantart uploads. from the posts I have read over at the Daz site most seem to be complaints from compulsive digtal hoarders who will not be able to implement thier personal content organizational schemes. Calm yourselves There are many ways to light Europe.



MY WEBSITE

MY IMDB LISTING



  Razor42 ( posted at 8:57AM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 9:11AM Sat, 31 October 2015

Also if you're not even smart enough to hide your actual identity while blatantly committing a crime. I'm willing to bet that cracking even basic encryption on a file is probably something that would just make you move onto easier prey. The level of DRM proposed on Daz3D products will be effective, at the least, in combating this level of casual piracy while only adding a barely noticeable level of annoyance to the far majority of legitimate users.


  JasonGalterio ( posted at 8:59AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 9:53AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236157](#msg4236157) > Theres hardly the esteem in cracking a pair of panties for a 3D dolly as there is in say a blockbuster game, movie or program. > _______________ > I was tempted to send them a rattlesnake in the mail, but I would feel bad for the snake ;) I agree. But someone will notice and will take on the challenge. Wait and see. And part of the reason why the laws haven't caught up is the lawyers themselves. The heavy handed approach they normal take has made it a joke... Let's sue a 67 year old grandma in Des Moines for 17 million dollars because one of her grandchildren downloaded the latest Katy Perry album. Instead of making an example of someone, they made a mockery of themselves... attacking a suburban retiree that probably only uses her computer to look at family pictures on Facebook. As someone else said there is no magic bullet. And something does need to be done. But the only way to improve on this is by discourse. Plotting a course while sitting in a bottle hardly ever solves anything.

  Razor42 ( posted at 9:08AM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 9:21AM Sat, 31 October 2015

Unfortunately laws are something that are well beyond mine or DAZ3D's sphere of influence and the way big business has attempted to deal with the issue has, as you have described, done nothing to remedy the situation and in a lot of cases eroded people's confidence in the process. I'm actually not sure how much sway US or international law has on a .ru file sharing site though. Which means really the responsibility ultimately lies with the seller to implement security measures that make an effort to suppress piracy of their products or at the very least put in place barriers to prevent casual piracy. Importantly whatever measures are taken need to cause minimal issue to customers in the usage of the product, at the risk of losing those customers.


  wolf359 ( posted at 9:56AM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 9:58AM Sat, 31 October 2015

**"I'm actually not sure how much sway US or international law has on a .ru file sharing site though.** None.. After this new DAZ Encryption is broken and a script developed to automate the process. this "protected content will be shared ,as usual on torrent. Once seeded it spreads even faster than a virus because the constituent parts are crowd sourced all over the planet via "Seeding", not just in known "enemy" lands such as China & Russia. As the technology now stands the only way to literally prevent this is to physically enclose your country within some Draconian Faraday Cage that blocks All external communications including satelites. not really an option here.



MY WEBSITE

MY IMDB LISTING



  Razor42 ( posted at 10:04AM Sat, 31 October 2015 

Maybe I wouldn't go so far as describing Russia and China as enemy lands, but I get your point, lol. China is the number 1 spending country globally for gaming too, on an OT note.


  WandW ( posted at 11:07AM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 11:21AM Sat, 31 October 2015

[Zev0](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=631071) posted at 11:31AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4235788](#msg4235788) > [WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 5:08PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - [#4235778](#msg4235778) > > > DAZ is no longer a small shop run by a group of artists, but is now but one small piece of a $80 Billion dollar corporation, Nippon Telegraph and Telephone, and has to contribute to their bottom line... > > Say what now? Sorry for the delay, Zev, as I got no eBots. Yes, DAZ is owned by NTT DOMOCO Innovations, formerly (until 1 October) NTT DOMOCO Capital, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of NTT DoMoCo, the largest wireless carrier in Japan, which is majority owned and controlled by NTT, the big Japanese telecom company. They had a huge stake in Gizmoz, which merged with DAZ in 2009, and apparently acquired the rest of DAZ in 2011. Here is a list of companies they own... Regarding Terry's comment about Poser's ownership, (which I suppose was off topic here :wink: ) Yes, Poser has been owned by other _**software**_ companies for over a decade (and was bought by MetaCreations back in the 1990s before being spun off into Curious Labs as well). However, Poser's management has remained mostly intact through this period, unlike at DAZ, where most (along with many of their in-house artists) were shown the door... EDIT; Highway 12 Ventures apparently still has a stake; info on privately held companies is hard to find...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."

“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"

"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 11:58AM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 12:05PM Sat, 31 October 2015

[WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 12:51PM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236175](#msg4236175) > [Zev0](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=631071) posted at 11:31AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4235788](#msg4235788) > > > [WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 5:08PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - [#4235778](#msg4235778) > > > > > DAZ is no longer a small shop run by a group of artists, but is now but one small piece of a $80 Billion dollar corporation, Nippon Telegraph and Telephone, and has to contribute to their bottom line... > > > > Say what now? > > Sorry for the delay, Zev, as I got no eBots. > > Yes, DAZ is owned by NTT DOMOCO Innovations, formerly (until 1 October) NTT DOMOCO Capital, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of NTT DoMoCo, the largest wireless carrier in Japan, which is majority owned and controlled by NTT, the big Japanese telecom company. They had a huge stake in Gizmoz, which merged with DAZ in 2009, and apparently acquired the rest of DAZ in 2011. Here is a list of companies they own... > > > > > Regarding Terry's comment about Poser's ownership, (which I suppose was off topic here :wink: ) Yes, Poser has been owned by other _**software**_ companies for over a decade (and was bought by MetaCreations back in the 1990s before being spun off into Curious Labs as well). However, Poser's management has remained mostly intact through this period, unlike at DAZ, where most (along with many of their in-house artists) were shown the door... > > EDIT; Highway 12 Ventures apparently still has a stake; info on privately held companies is hard to find... Actually no management was ever shown the door.. they sold their stake in company and left. Not sure who started that nonsense, but that should really be cleared up. You can't be shown the door on something you owned, but you can sell it and start a comicon. ;) And most likely there was a purge at SM at the beginning of this year despite what was said. Word was it was hard to get in touch regarding dson/genesis issues with anyone at SM when all the contacts no longer worked at the company. :) But it does help to give some background on why Poser support was dropped with Genesis 3. And as far as your references as far as who owns the company, I had to go ask. They don't know what you're talking about. I would stop spreading that if I were you. They thought the phone company part was funny though, I want some free phone service if that was actually true.

  LPR001 ( posted at 12:44PM Sat, 31 October 2015 

@wolf359 Perhaps it is best if we don't go labelling other countries as enemy lands I doubt it would be helpful sending this thread along its merry way. Renderosity is a global website DRM is a global issue. Please keep this in mind

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  WandW ( posted at 12:52PM Sat, 31 October 2015 

[Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 1:28PM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236182](#msg4236182) > Actually no management was ever shown the door.. they sold their stake in company and left. Not sure who started that nonsense, but that should really be cleared up. You can't be shown the door on something you owned, but you can sell it and start a comicon. ;) Darn it; I tried to edit the link and deleted the post! Thank goodness for a local cache! Chris Creek said this. He of course sold his stake around the time of the Gizmoz merger and left, but was later brought back. The Board by then was controlled by the investors (they had at least a $12 million stake in Gizmoz, plus whatever they had in DAZ; at least $9 Million when the merger was effected... ( ) , and Dan Farr was later forced out (according to Chris) and Chris of course was later let go. As far as NTT's ownership goes, check the link I posted... :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."

“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"

"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".

  WandW ( posted at 1:12PM Sat, 31 October 2015 

As an somewhat off-topic aside, whatever happened to Gizmoz' technology? I haven't yet seen caricature heads from photos make it into any DAZ products. Did they license that tech to someone else?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."

“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"

"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".

  LPR001 ( posted at 1:20PM Sat, 31 October 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 4:15AM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236157](#msg4236157) > Theres hardly the esteem in cracking a pair of panties for a 3D dolly as there is in say a blockbuster game, movie or program. > _______________ > I was tempted to send them a rattlesnake in the mail, but I would feel bad for the snake ;) I don't know about that I have seen some pretty neat pairs of 3D panties in my time. Luck would have it they have always been on special so I haven't had the desire to crack them open. I pay for everything I get and so do the majority. Send the rattlesnake

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Keith ( posted at 1:22PM Sat, 31 October 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:15PM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236157](#msg4236157) > Theres hardly the esteem in cracking a pair of panties for a 3D dolly as there is in say a blockbuster game, movie or program. Unless the DRM is constantly modified for each item, they don't have to do it for each item. They just have to get the algorithm once and then automate the process. So it won't matter if it's a pair of panties or the latest figure which the company itself is crowing about being widely used. Besides, you're not understanding the mindset for a lot of these guys. They don't care what product the DRM they are hacking is protecting. All that matters is that they're showing how easy it is to defeat DRM.


  FlagonsWorkshop ( posted at 2:57PM Sat, 31 October 2015 

I've mentioned this over at DAZ, I'm going to mention it one time here then get on to other things. The problem is this: DRM does not generate sales for entertainment digital items. Those people who aren't paying for the right to use your stuff are never going to pay for the right to use your stuff - they just will not use it if you make it impossible. Shady businesses that use your product in money making enterprises will pay for it if they have to. The problem with DRM is that it makes your product more difficult to use for your paying customers, plus it is costly to maintain and develop. So if you are adding DRM to your product, and it is used chiefly for entertainment, you are going to get lower sales at higher cost. It will not raise your sales. Which is exactly what the music, book, and movie industries found out. Movies still do it to stop people from selling their product illegally, that you have to stop or you go out of business. If you are incised that people are using your work without paying you, and your bottom line is you want to stop them regardless of lost sales or costs, then go for it, use the hell out of DRM. If you are trying to increase your sales, you better try something else.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 3:47PM Sat, 31 October 2015 

[WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 4:44PM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236192](#msg4236192) > [Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 1:28PM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4236182](#msg4236182) > > > Actually no management was ever shown the door.. they sold their stake in company and left. Not sure who started that nonsense, but that should really be cleared up. You can't be shown the door on something you owned, but you can sell it and start a comicon. ;) > > Darn it; I tried to edit the link and deleted the post! Thank goodness for a local cache! > > Chris Creek said this. He of course sold his stake around the time of the Gizmoz merger and left, but was later brought back. The Board by then was controlled by the investors (they had at least a $12 million stake in Gizmoz, plus whatever they had in DAZ; at least $9 Million when the merger was effected... ( ) , and Dan Farr was later forced out (according to Chris) and Chris of course was later let go. > > As far as NTT's ownership goes, check the link I posted... :) As I said, no management was forced out. They sold their stakes... period. Don't believe everything you read. If DAZ actually took the low road like some of these people, your head would spin at the messiness that goes on behind the scenes. They got products to make instead of kicking dirt, thank goodness.

  Khory_D ( posted at 8:50PM Sat, 31 October 2015 

_As an somewhat off-topic aside, whatever happened to Gizmoz' technology? I haven't yet seen caricature heads from photos make it into any DAZ products. Did they license that tech to someone else?_ _Darn it; I tried to edit the link and deleted the post! Thank goodness for a local cache! Chris Creek said this. He of course sold his stake around the time of the Gizmoz merger and left, but was later brought back. The Board by then was controlled by the investors (they had at least a $12 million stake in Gizmoz, plus whatever they had in DAZ; at least $9 Million when the merger was effected... ( http://techcrunch.com/2009/12/15/gizmoz-daz-3d-merges/ ) , and Dan Farr was later forced out (according to Chris) and Chris of course was later let go. As far as NTT's ownership goes, check the link I posted... :)_ I followed your link and it lists Highway 12 as the investors of that single 4 million dollar funding Daz got back in 2007. Looks like Highway 12 has 2 men who are general partners, 3 that are strategic partners and one principle partner who joined in 2010. None of that indications of a later buy out of the company by NTT. If you have some other indication that there was a purchase of Daz by another company I will be happy to look at it. What I know about Gizmoz is pretty much what is on the internet. I've never actually heard anyone with Daz talk about it even though I added it as a brokerage right around that time. I do know that some of the Daz models and so forth got used in some of the Gizmoz stuff but beyond that I've never seen or heard anything really indicating that the companies were one. My guess is that it was actually a folding in of Gizmoz into Daz and since the President who came with it left after 9 months to do his own thing (though according to linked in he is still on the board). My best guess is that they sold parts of Gizmoz and may have kept some of the people or tech. I seem to recall something about Gizmoz doing phone apps for the Korean market at some point which I would guess would be an easy sell out. In other words I don't think that there was any real impact on Daz then and certainly not now. I think Gizmoz and the merger has only ever been notable to a few people in forums. I'm really not going to talk about what Cris said other than to say I have never heard anyone at Daz say anything but nice things about Dan. I know they are all very proud of how well he has done with his Con. Of course if you ask me looking at anything to do with the company before 2012 is like looking into the dark ages and not really reliant to them today.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:55PM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 9:09PM Sat, 31 October 2015

[WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 12:26PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236175](#msg4236175) > [Zev0](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=631071) posted at 11:31AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - [#4235788](#msg4235788) > > > [WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 5:08PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - [#4235778](#msg4235778) > > > > > DAZ is no longer a small shop run by a group of artists, but is now but one small piece of a $80 Billion dollar corporation, Nippon Telegraph and Telephone, and has to contribute to their bottom line... > > > > Say what now? > > Sorry for the delay, Zev, as I got no eBots. > > Yes, DAZ is owned by NTT DOMOCO Innovations, formerly (until 1 October) NTT DOMOCO Capital, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of NTT DoMoCo, the largest wireless carrier in Japan, which is majority owned and controlled by NTT, the big Japanese telecom company. They had a huge stake in Gizmoz, which merged with DAZ in 2009, and apparently acquired the rest of DAZ in 2011. Here is a list of companies they own... > > > > > Regarding Terry's comment about Poser's ownership, (which I suppose was off topic here :wink: ) Yes, Poser has been owned by other _**software**_ companies for over a decade (and was bought by MetaCreations back in the 1990s before being spun off into Curious Labs as well). However, Poser's management has remained mostly intact through this period, unlike at DAZ, where most (along with many of their in-house artists) were shown the door... > > EDIT; Highway 12 Ventures apparently still has a stake; info on privately held companies is hard to find... Forgive me but both NTT DOMOCO innovations (Honestly the only place I can find a stated relationship between DOMOCO and DAZ3D is on DOMOCO own portfolio page which you linked it doesn't really say we (DOMOCO) own DAZ3D anywhere there either, as a portfolio page it could be there is another relationship such as investment or it could even mean they sold them some telecommunications gear at one point making them part of the portfolio of DOMOCO {LINK PLS to confirmation?}) and Highway 12 Ventures are both [Investment Groups](https://www.cbinsights.com/company/daz-3d-funding) (From what I can see DAZ3D has had 2 rounds of investment in the last few years one in 2011 and later in 2014 and currently DAZ3D has 4 major investors), Smith Micro on the other hand OWNS Poser outright. There is a vast difference between ownership and investment. So to say "Poser's" team is unchanged is pure fiction "Poser" doesn't have a CFO or CEO or even Staff but Smith Micro does. Poser is an asset of Smith Micro, not a company. Daz3D is entirely operated as an independent company, with from my understanding modern investors that believe that capital is the main asset an investor provides to the operation of a business. And from my understanding Gizmos was more of an acquisition then a merger. But sometimes small adjustments to words can misrepresent an idea greatly ;) or just make the person saying it feel better about the actual situation. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with DS 4.9 anyway or really why you seem to be trying to tell a story with very few facts, it comes across as slightly malicious like you're planting seeds of disinformation for a particular reason? ...


  Razor42 ( posted at 9:19PM Sat, 31 October 2015 

@ WandW Also I'm not sure why the dedication to comparing Poser with DAZ3D, it's like comparing Apple with Internet Explorer or Microsoft with Itunes. One is an asset (a thing owned by a company) and one is an organisation/company. You need to compare DAZ3D with Smith Micro or Poser with Daz Studio then there would be a more like to like kind of equation. Otherwise what your saying comes across as a little nonsensical and a little transparent motive wise.


  Razor42 ( posted at 10:53PM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 11:02PM Sat, 31 October 2015

Oh and one more thing while we're on the topic of Smith Micro here in the DAZ Studio forum. Congrats to Smith Micro on the 3rd quarter financial report for 2015 (Reported yesterday) losing only 750k in the last three months much better than the 1.2 million they lost in the same quarter last year. And a significant improvement on the last 9 months as well, only losing slightly over 2 Million dollars in that period much better than the **12 Million** lost in the previous year (2014)... The shareholders only lost a few cents of their share price this quarter (5% of the value) rather than the 30 cents per share they lost last year (About 38% of the shares value) Well I guess there used to it by now considering the shares were worth $16+, 5 years ago now they are around .65 cents a share... What's that come to around 96% of the company's value lost in 5 years?


  Black__Days ( posted at 11:16PM Sat, 31 October 2015 

Alright, I am not sure I understand what is going on with DAZ Connect or whatever it is called. Content is delivered only via cloud, not installed locally, and you have to download the stuff you want to use each time you want to use it? Is that right? Someone give me the tl;dr version of what is happening, please.


In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

  Razor42 ( posted at 11:41PM Sat, 31 October 2015 · edited on 11:44PM Sat, 31 October 2015

[Black__Days](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=494313) posted at 3:33PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236265](#msg4236265) > Alright, I am not sure I understand what is going on with DAZ Connect or whatever it is called. Content is delivered only via cloud, not installed locally, and you have to download the stuff you want to use each time you want to use it? Is that right? > > Someone give me the tl;dr version of what is happening, please. The term cloud is throwing people a little off in this scenario. Daz Connect is similar to DIM except it is enclosed in Daz Studio. Once you download your Daz Connect item it will be stored locally on your hard drive in an Encrypted format similar to the way DIM does (DIM files are unchanged and unencrypted at this point). So when you install 4.9 it (will) access all of your installed content on your hard drive from DAZ or other providers the same way 4.8 does. If you download via 4.9 Daz Connect from Daz3d it will come down as an encrypted format stored locally on your computer. Currently all Daz3D content is available through either DIM or Daz Connect both store the content locally on your hard drive once downloaded. Daz Connect in 4.9 will show content you have purchased, but not yet downloaded, as a greyed out icon (which means it's available In the "cloud") where you can click the icon and download and install within DS with Daz Connect.


  LPR001 ( posted at 12:16AM Sun, 01 November 2015 

One hour nap and at first glance I thought I was reading the Financial Times. What on earth has Smith Micro's P&L Statement got to do with the Daz DRM woes Razor? Although reading it L Statement might be a better choice. I do have one question I looked at the info over the greyed out icon and took it how you have explained this here. So is there a few bugs to iron out or will it take time to go through my content and list it all appropriately? because I see a few of those for my content that has been on my drive for years. Could this also be the poser companion files etc because I had Poser and Daz on two separate computers at one stage after upgrade so skipped a heap of the installs. Never bothered to catch up

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Black__Days ( posted at 12:16AM Sun, 01 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 1:14AM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236266](#msg4236266) >Once you download your Daz Connect item it will be stored locally on your hard drive in an Encrypted format similar to the way DIM does (DIM files are unchanged and unencrypted at this point). Oh. So it's basically a DRM thing, forcing users to install content from inside the client, so that it will be harder to install things obtained in a shady fashion without DAZ knowing about it. I am okay with this.


In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

  Razor42 ( posted at 12:33AM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 12:40AM Sun, 01 November 2015

[LPR001](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=777635) posted at 4:18PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236271](#msg4236271) > One hour nap and at first glance I thought I was reading the Financial Times. What on earth has Smith Micro's P&L Statement got to do with the Daz DRM woes Razor? Although reading it L Statement might be a better choice. I'm not sure tbh, I believe this #4235778 led to · #4235785 which led to #4236175 so I thought it would have some context. But feel free to remove it and drop it in the Poser Forum if you think it will be more relevant there. ;) > I do have one question I looked at the info over the greyed out icon and took it how you have explained this here. So is there a few bugs to iron out or will it take time to go through my content and list it all appropriately? because I see a few of those for my content that has been on my drive for years. Could this also be the poser companion files etc because I had Poser and Daz on two separate computers at one stage after upgrade so skipped a heap of the installs. Never bothered to catch up. I know it will take a little time to migrate your old content from 4.8 to 4.9 as the way it connects to your file storage is slightly different than in 4.8. So give it some time but let me know if it persists and I will see if I can direct you to a solution.


  Male_M3dia ( posted at 12:37AM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 12:40AM Sun, 01 November 2015

[Razor42] I'm not sure what any of this has to do with DS 4.9 anyway or really why you seem to be trying to tell a story with very few facts, it comes across as slightly malicious like you're planting seeds of disinformation for a particular reason? ... And that's the 2nd or 3rd time that he's tried it. Disinformation like this needs to be stopped. Seriously this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. And to be honest, the DAZ of today is in a MUCH better state than the previous management, so I'm not sure why this even matters.

  Razor42 ( posted at 12:50AM Sun, 01 November 2015 

[Black__Days](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=494313) posted at 4:48PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236272](#msg4236272) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 1:14AM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236266](#msg4236266) > > >Once you download your Daz Connect item it will be stored locally on your hard drive in an Encrypted format similar to the way DIM does (DIM files are unchanged and unencrypted at this point). > > Oh. So it's basically a DRM thing, forcing users to install content from inside the client, so that it will be harder to install things obtained in a shady fashion without DAZ knowing about it. I am okay with this. Thats pretty much it, but more an encryption on the Daz3D product files in the future to make it harder for gimbot pirates to just drop them on Warez sites after downloading them. All external content such as Renderosity products will continue to work in the usual fashion.


  LPR001 ( posted at 12:57AM Sun, 01 November 2015 

Thanks Razor i have been busy and have a large content library I was thinking it was a bit much to expect it to happen in the time I had it open so far and considering if I was to click on an item that was indicated to be in the cloud it loaded in seconds. Considering my average net speed if the DRM was going to work that fast with a download I would pray they added Netflix to their portfolio.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Razor42 ( posted at 1:02AM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 1:07AM Sun, 01 November 2015

[LPR001](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=777635) posted at 4:58PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236285](#msg4236285) > Thanks Razor i have been busy and have a large content library I was thinking it was a bit much to expect it to happen in the time I had it open so far and considering if I was to click on an item that was indicated to be in the cloud it loaded in seconds. Considering my average net speed if the DRM was going to work that fast with a download I would pray they added Netflix to their portfolio. From all reports the product DRM, or Daz Connect Encryption if you prefer, should have no discernable negative impact on download times and may actually download faster then DIM products. Plus Daz Connect items allow incremental updates which means, if there is a change made to a 1gig file a downloaded update would only need to download the changed portion of the product. This will also allow Daz to make quick updates on the fly without needing a more time consuming full rebuild of the product.


  Khory_D ( posted at 1:13AM Sun, 01 November 2015 

_Oh. So it's basically a DRM thing, forcing users to install content from inside the client, so that it will be harder to install things obtained in a shady fashion without DAZ knowing about it. I am okay with this._ Partly, they have also really beefed up smart content. Someones been working like crazy getting older stuff better organized and they have added some pluses to the smart content pane as well. One is that the info tab at the bottom contains much more information than it did in the past. It also is suppose to be able to link directly from the product there to the read me information. I did it once and can not for the life of me figure out how I did it so I'm at least nominally confused by that one though. There is also a shop in there that has freaked a few people out because they are afraid it will be invasive or constantly in contact with the store. Of course the reality there is that it is so unobtrusive that I've had to help several people actually locate it. And the information presented is sort of "rote" and related to your category selection rather than exactly what you as an individual might crave. Its kind of cool to see things that way though and I will say that the images are making it much easier for me to locate things in smart content. Something I was resistant to until now. I did a couple of speed tests the other day. My average download for characters and hair was around 32 second on my fairly middling internet. That also would have been when the servers were pretty slammed.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  chaecuna ( posted at 1:13AM Sun, 01 November 2015 

[LPR001](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=777635) posted at 7:58AM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236271](#msg4236271) > One hour nap and at first glance I thought I was reading the Financial Times. What on earth has Smith Micro's P&L Statement got to do with the Daz DRM woes Razor? Although reading it L Statement might be a better choice. I will explain things veeeeeery sloooooooly so that everybody, even those inhabiting (or pretending to inhabit) the far left side of the bell curve will be able to understand. Smith Micro financial situation has impact on the viability of Poser as a continuing developed product or, more sensibly, in our case, with its survival. The evolution of Poser impacts the monopoly status that DAZ is achieving and, consequently, their commercial policies. B.t.w. SMSI is even worse that what it appears from the above sources because: * delisting and ending in the pink slip market, with the related effect on customers trust in SMSI is, with the current situation almost certain (when customers to not trust your situation as firm, they are not going to establish a continued relationship with you, the way things work in main SMSI market, telco HW/SW); * there are consistent signs that SMSI main customer (Sprint IIRC) is "looking elsewhere" and when you lose 70% of your business in a single strike... * its management has added a poison pill clause to its shares therefore there is no more hope of some investor stepping in, acquiring the control of the firm, firing the board and saving the ship. Summing up, as SMSI is now, it is foreseable that it will simply go down into BK (bankruptcy) and Poser most likely will to become an orphaned product. Or maybe not, DAZ might buy it for peanuts and add to it Genesis compatibility and DAZ Connect...

  LPR001 ( posted at 2:09AM Sun, 01 November 2015 

@chaecuna You are drawing a pretty long bow claiming SM's financial status has a direct bearing for the reason for Daz going the mighty cloud/DRM and therefore relevant on this thread raised by the OP. Drop it please @Male_M3dia You are right there is no reason that I can see why there is the need to put forward dodgy at best info on the previous Daz owners/staff or anybody for that matter it is disrespectful. By the time I saw it you had already made your point and made it loud & clear I figured members will read it and realise what was being said should be taken with a grain of salt. Which is what it's worth. Don't let it get to you I think you have been around here long enough to know right from the posting of the topic how this thread was going to go. @Razor42 Hope so I am Daz fan but their DIM was as slow as a wet weekend at times it was like watching the grass grow even when my net speed was up

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  prixat ( posted at 2:17AM Sun, 01 November 2015 

We're also caught between 'how DAZ Connect is meant to work' and what's actually implemented in the current Beta. Not in this Beta... is the ability to convert a chosen product you already have on your drive into 'DAZ Connect ready' version, with no re-downloading the whole item. DAZ are recommending people hold off on 'converting' in this Beta as the re-downloads won't be necessary in a later version.

regards
prixat

  Razor42 ( posted at 2:21AM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 2:35AM Sun, 01 November 2015

[prixat](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=256683) posted at 7:20PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236297](#msg4236297) > We're also caught between 'how DAZ Connect is meant to work' and what's actually implemented in the current Beta. > > Not in this Beta... is the ability to convert a chosen product you already have on your drive into 'DAZ Connect ready' version, with no re-downloading the whole item. > > DAZ are recommending people hold off on 'converting' in this Beta as the re-downloads won't be necessary in a later version. That's true, but it is well, a [Beta release](http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/929714/#Comment_929714).


  Razor42 ( posted at 2:33AM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 2:40AM Sun, 01 November 2015

[chaecuna](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=721469) posted at 7:22PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236294](#msg4236294) > Smith Micro financial situation has impact on the viability of Poser as a continuing developed product or, more sensibly, in our case, with its survival. The evolution of Poser impacts the monopoly status that DAZ is achieving and, consequently, their commercial policies. Really any citations? :) Again you're insinuating something sinister is going on with DAZ3D with words like (monopoly) with no real actual data to back it up. Of course personal opinion and speculation may be strongly influencing your statements? Daz3D has a monopoly I guess someone should let Autodesk, Pixologic and many other players know, as I'm sure it will be news to them. What makes you think that Poser/Smith Micro is a competitor to Daz3D anyway? I'd be interested in seeing your opinion in what they are in direct competition with other than by vigilant forumites rattling sabres. And why you think the actions or inactions of SM in regards to Poser actually influence the development of Daz Studio at all? It seems more the other way around of late Poser development is influenced by DS. Just look at talks about Poser 2020 or whatever it is tagged as these days ;) _EDIT: Sorry just seen LPR asking the subject to be dropped, so consider the question marks rhetorical._


  parkdalegardener ( posted at 7:21AM Sun, 01 November 2015 

As long as Studio can do unencrypted exports then any DRM on imported content is moot. Weather from DAZ own storefront or any other storefront. I would be more worried about the connection between my credit details and the store front. If I am being given "suggestions" as to what product will work in my scene based on currently used products in said scene; and I can purchase the suggested asset without leaving Studio or the scene I am working on; then DAZ is attaching my credit details to their "secure server" which they claim is not true. I was told in the DAZ forums that this was not possible. That the server with the content is not the same server as that which holds my credit data. If such is the case then there must be a link between DS4.9 and _both_ their content server and their business server. Someone isn't telling the whole story. Is the protection of DAZ PAs more important than the credit data protection of the customer?


  Male_M3dia ( posted at 8:00AM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 8:05AM Sun, 01 November 2015

[parkdalegardener](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=600365) posted at 8:55AM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236313](#msg4236313) > As long as Studio can do unencrypted exports then any DRM on imported content is moot. Weather from DAZ own storefront or any other storefront. I would be more worried about the connection between my credit details and the store front. If I am being given "suggestions" as to what product will work in my scene based on currently used products in said scene; and I can purchase the suggested asset without leaving Studio or the scene I am working on; then DAZ is attaching my credit details to their "secure server" which they claim is not true. I was told in the DAZ forums that this was not possible. That the server with the content is not the same server as that which holds my credit data. If such is the case then there must be a link between DS4.9 and _both_ their content server and their business server. Someone isn't telling the whole story. Is the protection of DAZ PAs more important than the credit data protection of the customer? I don't think you understand how software development works. You can make calls from an app to other secure services and make it look like they're one app so it's seamless to the customer. For instance if you use paypal for your purchases instead of using a credit card directly, all the app needs to to is make the appropriate calls so that it connects to that and sends the result back to the calling app so it knows whether the transaction succeeded or not.

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:56AM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 9:04AM Sun, 01 November 2015

[parkdalegardener](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=600365) posted at 1:39AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236313](#msg4236313) > As long as Studio can do unencrypted exports then any DRM on imported content is moot. So to export a figure as you describe you would need to export the mesh, then the morphs, the weight maps, the JCM's, Then rebuild the figure from the exports, redo the ERC settings, reattach all the texture maps and surface settings. Make sure all the naming conventions are correct or it won't work with other content, Re-save each preset option, reassociate all of the thumbs. Recreate the metadata. Forget any HD settings, Extract the data and create a new product directory wrapper. And at the end deliver it all bug free with no errors working to the same standard as a Daz3D QA'd product. Wouldn't it be easier to just create a product and sell it at Daz3D? >Someone isn't telling the whole story. Is the protection of DAZ PAs more important than the credit data protection of the customer? So your writing on a website that was hacked this year through a man in the middle and compromised at lot of personal data to give an opinion that Daz3D would be so careless in their latest build that they could compromise your security. There are plenty of apps such as itunes that allow In App purchasing without compromising customer security, I'm not sure why you would see it as impossible to do safely as it's quite a common practice these days. It seems your drawing an assumption based on "I don't know how it works therefore: LIES" I would expect that Daz3D would protect it's customers security as a pretty top priority as there business depends on it. no? Unless you know something I don't?


  Khory_D ( posted at 9:10AM Sun, 01 November 2015 

The store front does not work the way people seem to think it does. First you don't get suggestions based on what is in your scene exactly. It is based on what you have selected in smart content at the time. Right now I have a primitive selected in my scene and am looking at Iray shader presets so I get a selection of products that are shader preset related. If I swap to Figure/Female/Real World I get a selection of realistic female characters and figures. If I load genesis 3 female then and have her selected in the scene I then only get a selection of characters that work on her. If for some reason you have a whip selected in your scene you may get a suggestion of chains. But only if whips and chains are in the same category of props (I have no clue as I don't own either, sorry). Other wise your just going to get a selection of hand held props that will include everything from books to butterfly nets.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  FlagonsWorkshop ( posted at 1:10PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

I don't have any problem with the DRM as long as it doesn't get in the way of how I use the product. With what DAZ sells and the fact you need to do modifications to pretty much all of it putting any kind of usable DRM on it is a tall order. My biggest worry is how it is going to change my workflow, I have my library arraigned by file folder not database, and how connect works will break that. For connect to work for me at all I'm going to have to see what it will take to do my organization in the database. As such there is going to be a "wait and see" aspect to it. The other thing that comes to mind is that in the current arrangement, DAZ provides the program for free, and sells the content. Which means for anything other than essential figures, you can circumvent their DRM by simply buying your content somewhere else. Here for example. I can't see how adding DRM is going to do anything but reduce sales because some people will absolutely refuse to deal with it. It will be an interesting experiment, I don't see where it can possibly work.

  maxgrafix ( posted at 2:33PM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 2:48PM Sun, 01 November 2015

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 8:15PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236078](#msg4236078) _"Regarding DRM. It's been tried, tested and has failed where music and video content is concerned so I can't see it working for DAZ. I'll give it a week or two before the hackers and crackers reverse engineer the files and post them online."_ > > Really? well it should be no issue to name a movie or music or game online supplier that uses no form of DRM then right? **I never stated that DRM isn't used, just that it's been a failure because it's been broken and removed from content. Not just by crackers but by everyday users. But don't just take my word for it, a simple internet search is all you have to do.** _How long would it take the Hackers and crackers to get onto your system if they wanted? Do you take any precautions on your own system or posessions to make it more difficult for theft if it was attempted._ **You speak as if I was born yesterday. You don't know me or my abilities where PC hardware / software is concerned so why speculate? And we aren't talking about hacking a website server to steal content, we're takling about DRM protected software that is downloaded** _Why should Daz3D not do the same. If reasonable measure can be taken to make theft more difficult why should they not be taken?_ **I didn't say they shouldn't do the same, did I? I stated I think it's a waste of time as it's already been removed from legally obtained music and movies. So if it can be removed from music and movies it can be removed from DAZ content, can't it?** _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  FlagonsWorkshop ( posted at 3:16PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

"Really? well it should be no issue to name a movie or music or game online supplier that uses no form of DRM then right?" (Referencing original post #4236078) Actually no, it isn't an issue to name them. Most places will sell you DRM free music at this point, the only people adding DRM are monthly subscription services. Here's a good place to go for a listing: http://www.techhive.com/article/155512/online_music_drm.html DRM free game online supplier, try this one: http://www.gog.com/ Movies, aside from Indie producers yeah, it's tough to find DRM free movies (aside from pirate sites of course)

  WandW ( posted at 5:45PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 6:37PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236259](#msg4236259) > @ WandW > > Also I'm not sure why the dedication to comparing Poser with DAZ3D, it's like comparing Apple with Internet Explorer or Microsoft with Itunes. One is an asset (a thing owned by a company) and one is an organisation/company. I responding to a comment by another poster who brought up SM. The point I was trying to make is that the management of DAZ has changed (The article I linked to above mentions NTT Domoco's stake in DAZ, as well of those of a couple of other capital firms which are no longer active.) It is no longer run by artists but by businessmen, and changes there are entirely consistent with preserving corporate value. People shouldn't get bent about it, because it won't make a difference...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."

“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"

"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".

  Black__Days ( posted at 5:49PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

So, Daz Studio 4.9 is going to suggest products to you, based one some criteria, as you use it. One of two things must therefore be true: either Daz Studio maintains a constant connection to the content server(s), which will eat up your bandwidth; or it maintains a massive, ever-expanding database file of all products on the content servers, and constantly searches it, and therefore adds to processor load and eats up disk space. Also, if the database option is how it works (which is honestly more likely, since it would just use the metadata already in place and be cheaper for Daz besides due to bandwidth costs and server load associated with constant searches from the client), how much do you want to bet it will one day expand to include at least one (likely all) of the marketing images on each product's storefront page? Thousands and thousands of images passively stored on your HDD, updated every time a PA makes a change to their storefront images... This database file is going to be freaking huge. Honestly, the whole idea sounds like a bad one to me. Sure, it'll mean more sales for them in the short run and all that. But honestly, if it's going to eat resources like it seems like it will eventually, it might as well have something like Clippy from Word 98 pop up everytime you add content to your scene: "I see you added a Victoria 7 character to your scene. Would you like to check out the new panties for her that just became available?"


In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

  Razor42 ( posted at 5:57PM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 6:10PM Sun, 01 November 2015

[WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 10:47AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236379](#msg4236379) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 6:37PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236259](#msg4236259) > > > @ WandW > > > > Also I'm not sure why the dedication to comparing Poser with DAZ3D, it's like comparing Apple with Internet Explorer or Microsoft with Itunes. One is an asset (a thing owned by a company) and one is an organisation/company. > > I responding to a comment by another poster who brought up SM. The point I was trying to make is that the management of DAZ has changed (The article I linked to above mentions NTT Domoco's stake in DAZ, as well of those of a couple of other capital firms which are no longer active.) It is no longer run by artists but by businessmen, and changes there are entirely consistent with preserving corporate value. People shouldn't get bent about it, because it won't make a difference... Again, this is just not true, Investors don't run companies unless ,individually, they hold a majority of the companys equity. Companies are ran by a managements team and **report** to their investors. There is a big difference. The link I provided shows Daz currently has 4 major investor groups and I doubt any hold a majority of equity over Daz3D unless you can show otherwise it's speculation. Having a stakes is totally different than owning a company. People get bent out of shape when you state fallacies like there true in most cases. Especially when they are intended for no purpose other than to be malicious. Have you met the Daz Management team? Your speculating maliciously to what end? The link you have provided doesn't prove any of the assumptions you're putting out there.


  Black__Days ( posted at 6:00PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

I think we should all assume the worst about other posters' motives, and project onto them the views that we don't want held about our pet software's developers/management/users.


In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

  Razor42 ( posted at 6:03PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

[Black__Days](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=494313) posted at 10:59AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236380](#msg4236380) > So, Daz Studio 4.9 is going to suggest products to you, based one some criteria, as you use it. One of two things must therefore be true: either Daz Studio maintains a constant connection to the content server(s), which will eat up your bandwidth; or it maintains a massive, ever-expanding database file of all products on the content servers, and constantly searches it, and therefore adds to processor load and eats up disk space. Also, if the database option is how it works (which is honestly more likely, since it would just use the metadata already in place and be cheaper for Daz besides due to bandwidth costs and server load associated with constant searches from the client), how much do you want to bet it will one day expand to include at least one (likely all) of the marketing images on each product's storefront page? Thousands and thousands of images passively stored on your HDD, updated every time a PA makes a change to their storefront images... > > This database file is going to be freaking huge. > > Honestly, the whole idea sounds like a bad one to me. Sure, it'll mean more sales for them in the short run and all that. But honestly, if it's going to eat resources like it seems like it will eventually, it might as well have something like Clippy from Word 98 pop up everytime you add content to your scene: "I see you added a Victoria 7 character to your scene. Would you like to check out the new panties for her that just became available?" The way the feature is described in the above isn't really how it works, it's easy to disable and works more by category selection. So if you select hair and you can't find one suitable in your own library for your project, you can select to see the suggestions and it will present you with ones you don't own from the Daz Store based on popularity and other factors. Clippy was such a useful companion though wasn't he. lol


  Razor42 ( posted at 6:16PM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 6:21PM Sun, 01 November 2015

[Black__Days](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=494313) posted at 11:12AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236382](#msg4236382) > I think we should all assume the worst about other posters' motives, and project onto them the views that we don't want held about our pet software's developers/management/users. The thing is Black, this isn't just someone saying something once, it's been said over and over again in a number of forums. Like saying it again and again will eventually convince people it has more fact than it does. All I'm saying is that if someone is going to state DAZ3D is **owned** by a Japanese Telecommunications giant then they need to back it with proof more significant than an icon on that Japanese businesses portfolio page. If they can't produce more solid proof of it than maybe they should just stop stating it as some kind of fact. __It begins to come across like the very reason it's being said is to just lay down some flamebait.__


  Black__Days ( posted at 6:22PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

> __It begins to come across like the very reason it's being said is to just lay down some flamebait.__ Even if that's true, we don't have to take the bait.


In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

  Razor42 ( posted at 6:39PM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 6:43PM Sun, 01 November 2015

[maxgrafix](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=240453) posted at 11:23AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236358](#msg4236358) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 8:15PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236078](#msg4236078) > > _"Regarding DRM. It's been tried, tested and has failed where music and video content is concerned so I can't see it working for DAZ. I'll give it a week or two before the hackers and crackers reverse engineer the files and post them online."_ > > > > Really? well it should be no issue to name a movie or music or game online supplier that uses no form of DRM then right? > > **I never stated that DRM isn't used, just that it's been a failure because it's been broken and removed from content. > Not just by crackers but by everyday users. But don't just take my word for it, a simple internet search is all you have to do.** > > _How long would it take the Hackers and crackers to get onto your system if they wanted? > Do you take any precautions on your own system or posessions to make it more difficult for theft if it was attempted._ > > > **You speak as if I was born yesterday. You don't know me or my abilities where PC hardware / software is concerned so why speculate? > And we aren't talking about hacking a website server to steal content, we're takling about DRM protected software that is downloaded** > > > _Why should Daz3D not do the same. If reasonable measure can be taken to make theft more difficult why should they not be taken?_ > > **I didn't say they shouldn't do the same, did I? I stated I think it's a waste of time as it's already been removed from legally obtained music and movies. So if it can be removed from music and movies it can be removed from DAZ content, can't it?** > > > _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ IMO DRM isn't a Works great 100% of the time or Total Fail 0% never works ever. it has varying levels of effectiveness against varying levels of attack. Look at modern software I would have to say this is where DRM is still pretty much a majority case and to a degree fairly effective. Would your advice be to Adobe that DRM is useless just put your software out there with no serial number, no protection, in a zip file which is easily transferred or copied by anyone. After all sooner or later it will be cracked and pirated anyway, as DRM is not gonna protect it forever, if at all? Really from your post it seems like you're saying yes they should try to protect, but trying to protect really is a waste of time and quite pointless. Shouldn't it be "no, dont do it as it will fail" or "yes you should give it go, as it's worth the attempt and some security is better than none"? Anyways...


  WandW ( posted at 6:42PM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 6:56PM Sun, 01 November 2015

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 7:26PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236381](#msg4236381) > Again, this is just not true, Investors don't run companies unless ,individually, they hold a majority of the companys equity. Companies are ran by a managements team and **report** to their investors. That's quibbling; the stakeholders collectively own the company, and the board is chosen by the investors. They then hire the managers I bear no malice towards DAZ; I'm a long-time PC Member who has used Studio from version 1.8 and continue to use it when it is the best tool for the job at hand. Your comment actually is the point I was trying to make (in DAZ' defence, if you will) that keeps getting buried in minutae; DAZ is no longer the cozy art company run by Dan and Chris, which it really was when I first got into it; it is a business now run purely for the bottom line, as their investors are in it to sell high at some point, so people shouldn't feel puzzled or betrayed when they don't act like the"'Old DAZ"; it's just business... EDIT; Forgot my source; Mark Solon is or was with HWY 21, which seems to be inactive. It's really difficult to determine stakes of private companies, as they are not required to report them, as publicly traded companies are, so apparently my list of current investors is incomplete, but NTT Docomo is certainly one of them. I apologize if anyone bought stock in NTT on the basis if my statements...:laughing:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."

“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"

"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 6:56PM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 6:58PM Sun, 01 November 2015

[WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 7:45PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236392](#msg4236392) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 7:26PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236381](#msg4236381) > > > Again, this is just not true, Investors don't run companies unless ,individually, they hold a majority of the companys equity. Companies are ran by a managements team and **report** to their investors. > > That's quibbling; the stakeholders collectively own the company, and the board is chosen by the investors. They then hire the managers > > I bear no malice towards DAZ; I'm a long-time PC Member who has used Studio from version 1.8 and continue to use it when it is the best tool for the job at hand. > > Your comment actually is the point I was trying to make (in DAZ' defence, if you will) that keeps getting buried in minutae; DAZ is no longer the cozy art company run by Dan and Chris, which it really was when I first got into it; it is a business now run purely for the bottom line, as their investors are in it to sell high at some point, so people shouldn't feel puzzled or betrayed when they don't act like the"'Old DAZ"; it's just business... And your statement is very incorrect. Look at the tech and the figures available now comparied to theose "old daz" days. Genesis 3, Iray integration, content tools that are available for free and work a lot better than some paid for solutions. You can't say "DAZ Soon" anymore with all the content that comes out these days. If they were so concerned about the bottom line, they would just give you minimum tech and moderate bug fixes and charge you $200 for an upgrade every two years. Also I can also tell you that you don't know what you're talking about as far as them not being a cozy company. I've been invited out there and visited with the staff (besides getting my eat and drink on ;) )... from the way their office is laid out and the way they interact allows for collaboration between the staff and get the products that you see popping up in the major storefronts. You don't get the type of innovation from companies if all they're thinking of just dollars and you wouldn't have the morale that I've seen there... which on the downlow is more than there was under the old management. So you really should stop implying things that you know nothing of, seriously. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

  Razor42 ( posted at 6:56PM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 6:59PM Sun, 01 November 2015

[WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 11:46AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236392](#msg4236392) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 7:26PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236381](#msg4236381) > > > Again, this is just not true, Investors don't run companies unless ,individually, they hold a majority of the companys equity. Companies are ran by a managements team and **report** to their investors. > > That's quibbling; the stakeholders collectively own the company, and the board is chosen by the investors. They then hire the managers > > I bear no malice towards DAZ; I'm a long-time PC Member who has used Studio from version 1.8 and continue to use it when it is the best tool for the job at hand. > > Your comment actually is the point I was trying to make (in DAZ' defence, if you will) that keeps getting buried in minutae; DAZ is no longer the cozy art company run by Dan and Chris, which it really was when I first got into it; it is a business now run purely for the bottom line, as their investors are in it to sell high at some point, so people shouldn't feel puzzled or betrayed when they don't act like the"'Old DAZ"; it's just business... <---- Head->desk No offence WandW, but it seems like you're trying to paint Daz3D as some kind of faceless suited men with Fat Bankers on their back cracking whips. "Yelling Damn the customers bring me my money!!!!" ''Evil lol'' A lot of it is the context you use to make a point however benevolent the intent may be. I mean like what you just posted above, look at the connotations associated. " DAZ is no longer the cozy art company " Seems to infer the management of Daz3D don't care about art. " it is a business now run purely for the bottom line" Seems to infer that Daz3D only care about money & not about DS, it's customers or its PA's. " as their investors are in it to sell high at some point " Indicates the appearance of volatility, Daz could be sold any day to anyone, be nervous everyone. " it's just business " See faceless suited men analogy above I guess that's what rattles my cage, your intentions become murky to myself because a lot of the language used seems to be double barbed.


  Razor42 ( posted at 7:01PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

[Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 12:00PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236394](#msg4236394) > [WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 7:45PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236392](#msg4236392) > > > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 7:26PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236381](#msg4236381) > > > > > Again, this is just not true, Investors don't run companies unless ,individually, they hold a majority of the companys equity. Companies are ran by a managements team and **report** to their investors. > > > > That's quibbling; the stakeholders collectively own the company, and the board is chosen by the investors. They then hire the managers > > > > I bear no malice towards DAZ; I'm a long-time PC Member who has used Studio from version 1.8 and continue to use it when it is the best tool for the job at hand. > > > > Your comment actually is the point I was trying to make (in DAZ' defence, if you will) that keeps getting buried in minutae; DAZ is no longer the cozy art company run by Dan and Chris, which it really was when I first got into it; it is a business now run purely for the bottom line, as their investors are in it to sell high at some point, so people shouldn't feel puzzled or betrayed when they don't act like the"'Old DAZ"; it's just business... > > And your statement is very incorrect. Look at the tech and the figures available now comparied to theose "old daz" days. Genesis 3, Iray integration, content tools that are available for free and work a lot better than some paid for solutions. You can't say "DAZ Soon" anymore with all the content that comes out these days. If they were so concerned about the bottom line, they would just give you minimum tech and moderate bug fixes and charge you $200 for an upgrade every two years. > > Also I can also tell you that you don't know what you're talking about as far as them not being a cozy company. I've been invited out there and visited with the staff (besides getting my eat and drink on ;) )... from the way their office is laid out and the way they interact allows for collaboration between the staff and get the products that you see popping up in the major storefronts. You don't get the type of innovation from companies if all they're thinking of just dollars and you wouldn't have the morale that I've seen there... which on the downlow is more than there was under the old management. > > So you really should stop implying things that you know nothing of, seriously. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand. 100% Agree, this has also been my experience.


  WandW ( posted at 7:01PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

[Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 7:57PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236394](#msg4236394) > So you really should stop implying things that you know nothing of, seriously. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I'm speaking as a hobbyist customer, Terry. Apparently that's not a viewpoint you can relate to. DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997. As far as the topic, it has 'changes' in the title... :wink:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."

“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"

"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".

  WandW ( posted at 7:05PM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 7:06PM Sun, 01 November 2015

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 8:02PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236395](#msg4236395) > I guess that's what rattles my cage, your intentions become murky to myself because a lot of the language used seems to be double barbed. Nothing evil about business; some folks seem to regard DAZ (or Poser) as some sort of old friend, and they seem hurt when they don't do what they expect. I'm trying to put a little bit of perspective out there; nothing more...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."

“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"

"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".

  Razor42 ( posted at 7:06PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

[WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 12:04PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236397](#msg4236397) > [Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 7:57PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236394](#msg4236394) > > > So you really should stop implying things that you know nothing of, seriously. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand. > > I'm speaking as a hobbyist customer, Terry. Apparently that's not a viewpoint you can relate to. DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997. As far as the topic, it has 'changes' in the title... :wink: Again with a massive negative slant... "DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997" You mean In your own opinion right? As to me i have had the opposite experience and couldn't disagree more. And it's certainly not certain.


  WandW ( posted at 7:08PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 8:07PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236399](#msg4236399) > [WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 12:04PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236397](#msg4236397) > > > [Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 7:57PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236394](#msg4236394) > > > > > So you really should stop implying things that you know nothing of, seriously. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand. > > > > I'm speaking as a hobbyist customer, Terry. Apparently that's not a viewpoint you can relate to. DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997. As far as the topic, it has 'changes' in the title... :wink: > > Again with a massive negative slant... > "DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997" > You mean In your own opinion right? As to me i have had the opposite experience and couldn't disagree more. And it's certainly not certain. Of course it's my opinion. Don't you have something better to do? I certainly do...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."

“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"

"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 7:10PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 8:07PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236399](#msg4236399) > [WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 12:04PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236397](#msg4236397) > > > [Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 7:57PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236394](#msg4236394) > > > > > So you really should stop implying things that you know nothing of, seriously. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand. > > > > I'm speaking as a hobbyist customer, Terry. Apparently that's not a viewpoint you can relate to. DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997. As far as the topic, it has 'changes' in the title... :wink: > > Again with a massive negative slant... > "DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997" > You mean In your own opinion right? As to me i have had the opposite experience and couldn't disagree more. And it's certainly not certain. Definitely opinion. This is my hobby too that I happen to make a little money off of. What I can do now, especially with the male figures, is so much more than what I could do years ago; and you don't get that from a company that just counts dollars, period.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 7:11PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

[WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 8:11PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236400](#msg4236400) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 8:07PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236399](#msg4236399) > > > [WandW](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=540474) posted at 12:04PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236397](#msg4236397) > > > > > [Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 7:57PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236394](#msg4236394) > > > > > > > So you really should stop implying things that you know nothing of, seriously. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand. > > > > > > I'm speaking as a hobbyist customer, Terry. Apparently that's not a viewpoint you can relate to. DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997. As far as the topic, it has 'changes' in the title... :wink: > > > > Again with a massive negative slant... > > "DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997" > > You mean In your own opinion right? As to me i have had the opposite experience and couldn't disagree more. And it's certainly not certain. > > Of course it's my opinion. Don't you have something better to do? I certainly do... LOL, lose the argument and the mud kicking starts...

  Razor42 ( posted at 7:13PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

Maybe you're just not as fun as you were in 1997 :P


  JasonGalterio ( posted at 7:15PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

I don't want this to sound elitist, but I thought I would describe my recent experiences to show why I am concerned... My wife and I just went on a fairly long vacation last month. It involved flying across the country. Then boarding a cruise ship for over a week. Before getting to Hawaii and spending a week and a half there. We spent over a year saving up for it and planning it out. I should add that I am a horrible flier. I hate flying. Absolutely despise it. I have incredibly bad luck on almost all my flights. Just strange things happen that never seem to happen to other people... Anyway, as a build up to this I invested in a new laptop. Tried to get all my software ready. Spent weeks doing back ups and etc. etc. We get on the plane. The first thing I discover is my new laptop tries to pull too much power from the plane's outlets. So I am working on a timer for how long the battery will last. Already a little stressed and trying to distract myself, I fire up Civilization to play. Guess what? Doesn't work. It wants an internet connection because I haven't run it recently. Grumbling, I decide to try Beyond Earth. Guess what? Doesn't work. I never ran it before. It wants to get online first too. Then I find that Windows update busted my headphone connection, so the only thing that works is the onboard speakers. So no watching a video or listening to music. The ship left from Vancouver but we flew into Seattle first. So the morning that we are heading "up north." I update everything I can while I still have an internet connection. Once I cross the border I know I am going to have issues getting a connection. We get to Vancouver. I decide to try and work on a few things while I have some down time. Guess what I didn't update? Photoshop CC. It suddenly has decided that I am not me. And wants me to log into the internet. I grumble and move on. My solace is that I already prepaid for unlimited internet access on the ship. So in about six hours I can fix this. We get on the ship. Every time I use Photoshop it wants to log in and prove I am me. Reality 4.1 also insists on re-registering every time I start it. But I have unlimited internet access, so it's just an annoyance now, not a game stopper. Until the ship starts passing through dead zones in the satellite coverage. Go figure. They don't provide internet coverage across the entire Pacific. So dead in the water, literally, intermittently across the Pacific. I guess this would be a worst case situation. It wasn't all bad. It didn't ruin anything. But it was annoying. And didn't have to happen.

  WandW ( posted at 7:16PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 8:14PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236404](#msg4236404) > Maybe you're just not as fun as you were in 1997 :P Apparently not! :lol:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."

“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"

"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".

  maxgrafix ( posted at 7:43PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 1:13AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236391](#msg4236391) > > _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > _IMO DRM isn't a Works great 100% of the time or Total Fail 0% never works ever. it has varying levels of effectiveness against varying levels of attack. _ > **_Please explain in what way DRM has certain levels of effectiveness once stripped from a digital product?_** > Look at modern software I would have to say this is where DRM is still pretty much a majority case and to a degree fairly effective. **_The amount of media including movies, music, games and software available on the internet suggests you're 100% wrong_** > Would your advice be to Adobe that DRM is useless just put your software out there with no serial number, no protection, in a zip file which is easily transferred or copied by anyone. After all sooner or later it will be cracked and pirated anyway, as DRM is not gonna protect it forever, if at all? **_Now you're just clutching at straws. The fact that software is still being cracked suggests whatever protection the media has applied to it can be reversed. Perhaps a new approach is required instead of flogging a dead horse that is DRM IMO_** > > Really from your post it seems like you're saying yes they should try to protect, but trying to protect really is a waste of time and quite pointless. Shouldn't it be "no, dont do it as it will fail" or "yes you should give it go, as it's worth the attempt and some security is better than none"? > Anyways... **_See my reply above. You've basically made the same argument twice_**

  Black__Days ( posted at 8:52PM Sun, 01 November 2015 

Here's my two cents worth about the DRM issue. DRM isn't supposed to be completely invulnerable (or at least smart developers look at it that way), because that's impossible. It's supposed to be good enough that it takes a while to break, and thus allows the initial "hot property" sales to be made, and maybe be onerous enough to disable or strip out that the average user won't be able to do it, or might just not have the patience to bother, thus allowing sales to those that pirate when piracy is as convenient as buying. No system can be invented by humans that other humans are not capable of breaking or reverse-engineering. It's just a question of whether or not doing so is worth the effort involved, at least in the case of people that don't break such systems because doing so is something they enjoy. Those people will always find a way.


In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

  Razor42 ( posted at 9:27PM Sun, 01 November 2015 · edited on 9:31PM Sun, 01 November 2015

[maxgrafix](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=240453) posted at 2:10PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236411](#msg4236411) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 1:13AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236391](#msg4236391) > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > _IMO DRM isn't a Works great 100% of the time or Total Fail 0% never works ever. it has varying levels of effectiveness against varying levels of attack. _ > > > > **_Please explain in what way DRM has certain levels of effectiveness once stripped from a digital product?_** > > > > Look at modern software I would have to say this is where DRM is still pretty much a majority case and to a degree fairly effective. > > **_The amount of media including movies, music, games and software available on the internet suggests you're 100% wrong_** > > > Would your advice be to Adobe that DRM is useless just put your software out there with no serial number, no protection, in a zip file which is easily transferred or copied by anyone. After all sooner or later it will be cracked and pirated anyway, as DRM is not gonna protect it forever, if at all? > > **_Now you're just clutching at straws. The fact that software is still being cracked suggests whatever protection the media has applied to it can be reversed. > Perhaps a new approach is required instead of flogging a dead horse that is DRM IMO_** > > > > Really from your post it seems like you're saying yes they should try to protect, but trying to protect really is a waste of time and quite pointless. Shouldn't it be "no, dont do it as it will fail" or "yes you should give it go, as it's worth the attempt and some security is better than none"? > > Anyways... > > **_See my reply above. You've basically made the same argument twice_** This all adds up to, don't try as it can't inevitably be stopped? Unfortunately as a business this is a pretty flimsy option and I definitely wouldn't be putting you on the payroll for advice in this area. I'm having trouble discerning your actual point in all of this other than what I just stated, which is doing nothing, is better than something/anything. I think Black__Days just pretty clearly explained above how DRM can be effective if not %100 ironclad guarantee forever of contents security. No one is talking about locking a file up for ever, I'm not sure anyone even thinks this is currently possible. Why make laws if people will only break them? How effective is a law if it is broken? The one point you have made abundantly clear is **YOU DON"T LIKE DRM**.


  Morpheon ( posted at 1:38AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 1:49AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 10:18PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236420](#msg4236420) > The one point you have made abundantly clear is **YOU DON"T LIKE DRM**. And even if that was the ONLY point he was trying to make, it would still be a valid one. I don't fault DAZ and the content creators for wanting to protect their work, but even if the process IS as transparent as DAZ claims it will be (and that's still a big IF -- after that slow-motion train wreck of a store change-over, I'm a little underwhelmed by DAZ's technical capabilities), the very concept of DRM still assumes that the customer is a thief or at least a potential thief, and worse, the customer is expected to pay for the privilege of being treated as one -- that alone is reason enough for me and for many others to oppose it, regardless of how DRM may actually affect our use of any encrypted content (if at all). The products at DAZ are cool, but not cool enough to warrant putting up with that BS. I'm not upgrading beyond DS4.8, and in fact, I've already scrubbed DS from my machine and I'm in the middle of a Poser content reinstall. DAZ and the content creators who do business through them (even the ones with stores here at Renderosity: Ironman13, DM, Zev0, etc.) won't see another dime from me as long as a single piece of content remains encrypted at DAZ (and I've spent ~$400 a month there for the last several years) -- in fact, unless there's another change at the very top, it's more than likely that I'll never do business with DAZ again, that's how much I hate DRM.

  Razor42 ( posted at 1:53AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 2:07AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 6:52PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236438](#msg4236438) > I don't fault DAZ and the content creators for wanting to protect their work > it's more than likely that I'll never do business with DAZ again Apparently you do ______________ Fair enough, but doesn't the latest version of Poser include DRM? Hey, whatever keeps you rendering ;)


  chaecuna ( posted at 2:04AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 8:58AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236440](#msg4236440) > Fair enough, but doesn't the latest version of Poser include DRM? It contains a periodic phone home "feature" to keep it activated. It is a different from DAZ DRM and potentially even more dangerous (SMSI goes down, there are no more authentication servers around, in 6 months Poser copies become bricked). The only good DRM is a dead DRM. Back to the development of a Cycles shaders library for humanoid characters aka "dropping it" ;-)

  Razor42 ( posted at 2:11AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 2:13AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[chaecuna](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=721469) posted at 7:08PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236441](#msg4236441) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 8:58AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236440](#msg4236440) > > > Fair enough, but doesn't the latest version of Poser include DRM? > > It contains a periodic phone home "feature" to keep it activated. It is a different from DAZ DRM and potentially even more dangerous (SMSI goes down, there are no more authentication servers around, in 6 months Poser copies become bricked). The only good DRM is a dead DRM. > > Back to the development of a Cycles shaders library for humanoid characters aka "dropping it" ;-) I find it a little humorous how outspoken some people are about their hate of DRM. But continue to use plenty of other things that feature a form of DRM, and in a lot of cases a lot more invasive forms. No need to drop it, we just aren't meant to be discussing how SM is on the verge of bankruptcy as it's OT. But DRM is definitely on topic here so feel free to vent. _Disclaimer: All venting must fall within the TOS of the forum or risk the wrath of a Mod ;)_


  Morpheon ( posted at 2:28AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:00PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236440](#msg4236440) > Fair enough, but doesn't the latest version of Poser include DRM? _(EDIT: I see you only referred to content)_ > > But hey, whatever keeps you rendering ;) > > Actually there in no encrypted only content at Daz3D at the moment either... Your second point first: you're right, there isn't any encrypted content at DAZ 3D currently, but that will change, and likely as soon as DAZ can make it. According to DAZ_Rawb and others, anything that passes through DAZ Connect will have key files encrypted, even the older pre-DRM content. The DAZ moderators keep saying that the ZIPs and downloads via DIM will remain intact, but they also quickly add that they can't make any promises about future developments -- which is a rather obvious fudge; it also requires a lot of trust on the customer's part that, personally, I don't think DAZ deserves. I think they'll s***-can the ZIPs and DIM and drive everyone to use DAZ Connect as quickly as possible. As to your first point, the only reference to DRM within Poser that I can find is the fact that the software may know whether or not it's an illegal copy, and either shut itself down and/or dial home to Smith Micro to report the theft, which is pretty typical software security. Software serial keys are about as universal and unintrusive as you can get, and if you're using a pirated copy of Poser, Max, Photoshop, or whatever, you're a dirt-bag and too damn bad for you if it locks you out or calls the IP cops on you. I've personally been locked out of legally-purchased software a time or two, so I have first-hand experience that it does occur accidentally. The difference with most programs is that any protection is APPLICATION-BASED, not CONTENT-BASED, as it will be with DS 4.9+. If my copy of 3ds Max suddenly decides that I'm not authorized to run the program, I can still open my files (assuming they're in the proper format, of course) in Maya or Lightwave or Blender; if my copy of Photoshop suddenly decides that I'm a pirate, I can still access my content via GIMP or CorelDRAW or whatever 2D paint program supports Photoshop protocols. But if DS4.9+ decides that I'm not an authorized user, I'm up S*** Creek, because the CONTENT will be encrypted, and no other application will have the means to access that content. And if the content is encrypted, you don't own it and you don't control it -- you're at the mercy of whoever did the encrypting (in this case, DAZ). Doesn't matter if it's movies, music, books, games, or 3D assets -- I'm not paying good money to put myself in that position.

  Morpheon ( posted at 2:33AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:31PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236440](#msg4236440) > [Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 6:52PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236438](#msg4236438) > > > I don't fault DAZ and the content creators for wanting to protect their work > > > it's more than likely that I'll never do business with DAZ again > > Apparently you do Not faulting them -- they're in the right to do this. And I'm just as in the right to walk away with my dollars and to encourage others to do the same.

  Razor42 ( posted at 2:53AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 3:04AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 7:35PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236445](#msg4236445) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:00PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236440](#msg4236440) > > > Fair enough, but doesn't the latest version of Poser include DRM? _(EDIT: I see you only referred to content)_ > > > > But hey, whatever keeps you rendering ;) > > > > Actually there in no encrypted only content at Daz3D at the moment either... > > Your second point first: you're right, there isn't any encrypted content at DAZ 3D currently, but that will change, and likely as soon as DAZ can make it. According to DAZ_Rawb and others, anything that passes through DAZ Connect will have key files encrypted, even the older pre-DRM content. The DAZ moderators keep saying that the ZIPs and downloads via DIM will remain intact, but they also quickly add that they can't make any promises about future developments -- which is a rather obvious fudge; it also requires a lot of trust on the customer's part that, personally, I don't think DAZ deserves. I think they'll s***-can the ZIPs and DIM and drive everyone to use DAZ Connect as quickly as possible. > > As to your first point, the only reference to DRM within Poser that I can find is the fact that the software may know whether or not it's an illegal copy, and either shut itself down and/or dial home to Smith Micro to report the theft, which is pretty typical software security. Software serial keys are about as universal and unintrusive as you can get, and if you're using a pirated copy of Poser, Max, Photoshop, or whatever, you're a dirt-bag and too damn bad for you if it locks you out or calls the IP cops on you. I've personally been locked out of legally-purchased software a time or two, so I have first-hand experience that it does occur accidentally. > > The difference with most programs is that any protection is APPLICATION-BASED, not CONTENT-BASED, as it will be with DS 4.9+. If my copy of 3ds Max suddenly decides that I'm not authorized to run the program, I can still open my files (assuming they're in the proper format, of course) in Maya or Lightwave or Blender; if my copy of Photoshop suddenly decides that I'm a pirate, I can still access my content via GIMP or CorelDRAW or whatever 2D paint program supports Photoshop protocols. But if DS4.9+ decides that I'm not an authorized user, I'm up S*** Creek, because the CONTENT will be encrypted, and no other application will have the means to access that content. > > And if the content is encrypted, you don't own it and you don't control it -- you're at the mercy of whoever did the encrypting (in this case, DAZ). Doesn't matter if it's movies, music, books, games, or 3D assets -- I'm not paying good money to put myself in that position. Ok forgive me here if this seems a little slow on my behalf. But actually dial home software is considered one of the most invasive DRM forms there is. Just ask Microsoft. You need an internet connection, if the dial home server goes offline either intermittently or permanently you need to find another app that supports your content and in a lot of cases that isn't possible or you are forced wait patiently for the servers to come back up . It's a continual process which is more likely to cause workflow interruption if there are *any* system issues either locally or with the servers. And treats every user like a criminal until the dial home correlates the license which some seem to rather dislike. There's also a big contradiction some people are saying the encryption won't stop pirates in cracking the encryption for a few heart beats. Yet if in the future under worst case scenario's people will be locked out of their content. I'm not sure how the two stand side by side. But surely there is a solution to the second issue in the first? (Talking disaster management here) Also a slight misunderstanding the Daz Content encryption on products only encrypts the DS files (.duf .dsf .dat etc) so things like textures (jpgs) are not encrypted and you're free to use them in other apps even with the DC encryption enabled. So if Daz3D goes away you will only be able to use the encrypted content in the latest build of DS that was available or the unencrypted parts of the content in any app that supports them (Basically any non DS specific file). The biggest issue if Daz goes away is if you haven't downloaded it you could lose it. But that exists with every brokerage I think. IF SM goes bye-bye you've got a 6 month window at most till your program is bricked in my understanding so it would seem the risk to you is much higher in this form of DRM implementation.


  Razor42 ( posted at 2:56AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 2:57AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 7:54PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236446](#msg4236446) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:31PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236440](#msg4236440) > > > [Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 6:52PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236438](#msg4236438) > > > > > I don't fault DAZ and the content creators for wanting to protect their work > > > > > it's more than likely that I'll never do business with DAZ again > > > > Apparently you do > > Not faulting them -- they're in the right to do this. And I'm just as in the right to walk away with my dollars and to encourage others to do the same. Fair enough I'm not faulting you for that, I'm just going to put you on ignore from now on. (JOKING) :innocent:


  Morpheon ( posted at 3:03AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 3:04AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:56PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236449](#msg4236449) > Also a slight misunderstanding the Daz Content encryption on products only encrypts the DS files (.duf .dsf .dat etc) so things like textures (jpgs) are not encrypted and you're free to use them in other apps even with the DC encryption enabled. So if Daz3D goes away you will only be able to use the encrypted content in the latest build of DS that was available or the unencrypted parts of the content in any app that supports them. There's no misunderstanding about that: it's been stated clearly and repeatedly that textures won't be encrypted but the DUF/DSF files will. So DS goes down and I have all the materials for one of Stonemason's big sci-fi sets still at my disposal, but the geometry is locked up tight as a drum -- that's a pretty small consolation. At the moment, I'm still just a hobbyist, not a professional artist who earns a living from my artwork. For someone like that, that's not just money out of their pocket for content they now can't use, but possibly lost commissions, broken deadlines, etc. Not the same thing if Poser suddenly breaks and that same artist can switch over to Max or Lightwave or Blender and can use that same asset because it hasn't been encrypted.

  Razor42 ( posted at 3:07AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 3:13AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 8:04PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236452](#msg4236452) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:56PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236449](#msg4236449) > > > Also a slight misunderstanding the Daz Content encryption on products only encrypts the DS files (.duf .dsf .dat etc) so things like textures (jpgs) are not encrypted and you're free to use them in other apps even with the DC encryption enabled. So if Daz3D goes away you will only be able to use the encrypted content in the latest build of DS that was available or the unencrypted parts of the content in any app that supports them. > > There's no misunderstanding about that: it's been stated clearly and repeatedly that textures won't be encrypted but the DUF/DSF files will. So DS goes down and I have all the materials for one of Stonemason's big sci-fi sets still at my disposal, but the geometry is locked up tight as a drum -- that's a pretty small consolation. At the moment, I'm still just a hobbyist, not a professional artist who earns a living from my artwork. For someone like that, that's not just money out of their pocket for content they now can't use, but possibly lost commissions, broken deadlines, etc. Not the same thing if Poser suddenly breaks and that same artist can switch over to Max or Lightwave or Blender and can use that same asset because it hasn't been encrypted. DS can't go down under this form of DRM ( It just doesn't work that way), if you have DS installed and unlocked or a backup of of 4.8. your content will always be usable in DS. DAZ3D Content servers and the store in a worse case scenario potentially could go down though. You could just boot up your version of DS and export the items to obj's and begin a Poser *"Shudders"*, Blender, max rebuild. Daz3D is also talking about a Poison Pill worst case scenario that will unlock all encryption as well but that does rely on a little trust.


  Razor42 ( posted at 3:11AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 8:10PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236452](#msg4236452) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:56PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - [#4236449](#msg4236449) > > > Also a slight misunderstanding the Daz Content encryption on products only encrypts the DS files (.duf .dsf .dat etc) so things like textures (jpgs) are not encrypted and you're free to use them in other apps even with the DC encryption enabled. So if Daz3D goes away you will only be able to use the encrypted content in the latest build of DS that was available or the unencrypted parts of the content in any app that supports them. > > There's no misunderstanding about that: it's been stated clearly and repeatedly that textures won't be encrypted but the DUF/DSF files will. So DS goes down and I have all the materials for one of Stonemason's big sci-fi sets still at my disposal, but the geometry is locked up tight as a drum -- that's a pretty small consolation. At the moment, I'm still just a hobbyist, not a professional artist who earns a living from my artwork. For someone like that, that's not just money out of their pocket for content they now can't use, but possibly lost commissions, broken deadlines, etc. Not the same thing if Poser suddenly breaks and that same artist can switch over to Max or Lightwave or Blender and can use that same asset because it hasn't been encrypted. Also do you think 90 percent of Poser content will just roll over to blender? If Poser is bricked your likely to lose a lot more tbh


  Morpheon ( posted at 3:12AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:05AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236449](#msg4236449) > IF SM goes bye-bye you've got a 6 month window at most till your program is bricked in my understanding so it would seem the risk to you is much higher in this form of DRM implementation. Six months is a helluva big window in which to learn a new app, to port your assets over, etc., not to mention that Poser continues to run during those six months, so your workflow isn't disrupted immediately. Not hearing anything like that from DAZ other than vague assurances (which they have absolutely NO WAY of knowing that they'll be able to fulfill should the unthinkable occur) that they'll automatically unlock all encrypted content should the need arise.

  Razor42 ( posted at 3:17AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 8:14PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236457](#msg4236457) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:05AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236449](#msg4236449) > > > IF SM goes bye-bye you've got a 6 month window at most till your program is bricked in my understanding so it would seem the risk to you is much higher in this form of DRM implementation. > > Six months is a helluva big window in which to learn a new app, to port your assets over, etc., not to mention that Poser continues to run during those six months, so your workflow isn't disrupted immediately. Not hearing anything like that from DAZ other than vague assurances (which they have absolutely NO WAY of knowing that they'll be able to fulfill should the unthinkable occur) that they'll automatically unlock all encrypted content should the need arise. SM has a time frame, there is no time frame for DS. If Daz3d disappears you can continue to use all of your content and DS as normal under the conditions I described above. If SM disappears the clock starts ticking with a definite end to Poser use at the lapse of it. 6 months is best case also, it could happen literally overnight with Poser locking you out.


  Morpheon ( posted at 3:17AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:13AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236454](#msg4236454) > DS can't go down under this form of DRM, if you have it installed and unlocked or a backup of of 4.8. it just doesn't work that way. DAZ3D Content servers and the store in a worse case scenario potentially could go down though. You could just boot up your version of DS and export the items to obj's and begin a Poser *"Shudders"*, Blender, max rebuild. Daz3D is also talking about a Poison Pill worst case scenario that will unlock all encryption as well but that does rely on a little trust. No one is saying that the DRM will kill the DS app, just that, should the authentication fail, your content is immediately inaccessible; by contrast, should your authentication with Poser fail, your content is still accessible via other apps. Big difference. And we've already pointed out that -- DAZ's assurances to the contrary -- maintaining export capability is a back-door way to circumvent DRM, fully on simpler items that don't really on complex morphs and rigging, and at least partially on more complex models and figures. If they're truly serious about all this, I really don't see how they can leave it in.

  Razor42 ( posted at 3:20AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 3:20AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 8:18PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236457](#msg4236457) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:05AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236449](#msg4236449) > > > IF SM goes bye-bye you've got a 6 month window at most till your program is bricked in my understanding so it would seem the risk to you is much higher in this form of DRM implementation. > > Six months is a helluva big window in which to learn a new app, to port your assets over, etc., not to mention that Poser continues to run during those six months, so your workflow isn't disrupted immediately. Not hearing anything like that from DAZ other than vague assurances (which they have absolutely NO WAY of knowing that they'll be able to fulfill should the unthinkable occur) that they'll automatically unlock all encrypted content should the need arise. One other thing Daz3D are going from strength to strength and are financially stable. SM and in turn Poser .... [Not so good in either respect tbh](http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/smith-micro-reports-2015-third-quarter-financial-results-300167585.html)


  Morpheon ( posted at 3:25AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:20AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236458](#msg4236458) > SM has a time frame, there is no time frame for DS. > If Daz3d disappears you can continue to use all of your content and DS as normal under the conditions I described above. > If SM disappears the clock starts ticking with a definite end to Poser use at the lapse of it. 6 months is best case also, it could happen literally overnight with Poser locking you out. Exactly: there IS a definite window with Poser which can be counted on, not vague assurances with no guarantees, as DAZ is offering. If -- once all content was encrypted -- the DAZ servers vanished off the face of the Earth, there would be no unencrypted content available to distribute and no way to distribute a decryption key. Or maybe it's just as simple as someone else takes possession of those servers (and the unencrypted content AND the decryption key, should one exist) through a bankruptcy and has no legal obligation to fulfill DAZ's promises. As I said, that involves a degree of trust that I don't feel DAZ deserves.

  Morpheon ( posted at 3:27AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 3:31AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:27AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236460](#msg4236460) > One other thing Daz3D are going from strength to strength and are financially stable. SM and in turn Poser .... [Not so good in either respect tbh](http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/smith-micro-reports-2015-third-quarter-financial-results-300167585.html) Excuse me, but weren't you the one a few posts ago saying that we're not supposed to speculate on SM's financial viability? So why are you doing it now?? And in any case, I should support a supposedly financially-sound company that spits in its customers face on fairly regular basis for the sake of its shiny toys, over supporting a possibly less-financially-secure company that at least treats its customers decently? I have some issues with SM, but it's mainly related to them keeping Poser in stuck in the 1990s, but they've always been courteous and treated me fairly -- I can't even begin to say the same thing for DAZ since the management change-over.

  Razor42 ( posted at 3:28AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 3:32AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 8:21PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236459](#msg4236459) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:13AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236454](#msg4236454) > > > DS can't go down under this form of DRM, if you have it installed and unlocked or a backup of of 4.8. it just doesn't work that way. DAZ3D Content servers and the store in a worse case scenario potentially could go down though. You could just boot up your version of DS and export the items to obj's and begin a Poser *"Shudders"*, Blender, max rebuild. Daz3D is also talking about a Poison Pill worst case scenario that will unlock all encryption as well but that does rely on a little trust. > > No one is saying that the DRM will kill the DS app, just that, should the authentication fail, your content is immediately inaccessible; by contrast, should your authentication with Poser fail, your content is still accessible via other apps. Big difference. > > And we've already pointed out that -- DAZ's assurances to the contrary -- maintaining export capability is a back-door way to circumvent DRM, fully on simpler items that don't really on complex morphs and rigging, and at least partially on more complex models and figures. If they're truly serious about all this, I really don't see how they can leave it in. This is becoming circular now, pretty much everything there we just went over. At the end of the day you're going to need to pick a horse. Honestly if you think that you're going into the future with Poser is more promising and you are going to be able to port a Poser figure/mat/pose/morph/etc over for use in other apps easily and maintain the quality and usability of a DAZ figure/Pose/scene/etc. That your prerogative. But a good deal of content at Daz3D these days is not going to be an easy port to other apps, (especially Poser) DRM or not. And yes both Poser and Daz3D have DRM.


  Razor42 ( posted at 3:28AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 3:33AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 8:28PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236462](#msg4236462) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:27AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236460](#msg4236460) > > > One other thing Daz3D are going from strength to strength and are financially stable. SM and in turn Poser .... [Not so good in either respect tbh](http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/smith-micro-reports-2015-third-quarter-financial-results-300167585.html) > > Excuse me, but weren't you the one a few posts ago saying that we're not supposed to speculate on SM's financial viability? So why are you doing it now?? Because it was relevant to the line of conversation and you're excused ;) Also linking a P&L is not speculation.


  Morpheon ( posted at 3:37AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:32AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236463](#msg4236463) > But a good deal of content at Daz3D these days is not going to be an easy port to other apps DRM or not. And yes both Poser and Daz3D have DRM. What DRM exists in Poser is about as unintrusive and universal as you'll find in software, and it at least has the benefit of not locking up your content, unlike DS -- a crucial distinction. Any ability to port content from DS to other apps is still a chance to circumvent DRM. Stonemason sets typically have no morphs or rigging, so exporting one of those to OBJ and then distributing that OBJ with the unencrypted texture files -- ta da! Congratulations -- you've just pirated DRM'd DAZ content.

  Morpheon ( posted at 3:41AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 3:42AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 12:41AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236468](#msg4236468) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:38AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236464](#msg4236464) > > > Because it was relevant to the line of conversation > > In what way? Because at that moment, we had been talking about what happens in worst-case scenarios, not how any of this affects the bottom line for either company -- you just came out of left field with that.

  Morpheon ( posted at 3:46AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:43AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236454](#msg4236454) > if you have DS installed and unlocked or a backup of of 4.8. your content will always be usable in DS. You will NOT be able to simply roll-back your DS installation after the encryption goes live. If your post-encryption copy of DS locks you out, any encrypted content will NOT function in an earlier version, because the ability to decrypt that content does not exist in earlier versions.

  Razor42 ( posted at 3:47AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 8:43PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236469](#msg4236469) > [Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 12:41AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236468](#msg4236468) > > > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:38AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236464](#msg4236464) > > > > > Because it was relevant to the line of conversation > > > > In what way? Because at that moment, we had been talking about what happens in worst-case scenarios, not how any of this affects the bottom line for either company -- you just came out of left field with that. Forgive me I thought your issue was what happens to your content if Daz3D becomes unviable. Which rational leads to the question of, if you migrate to Poser what happens to your content if SM becomes unviable. I wasn't talking about bottom lines I was talking about risk mitigation. Also just my opinion but speculating about ways to pirate content is probably inadvisable.


  Razor42 ( posted at 3:51AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 4:04AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 8:50PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236470](#msg4236470) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:43AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236454](#msg4236454) > > > if you have DS installed and unlocked or a backup of of 4.8. your content will always be usable in DS. > > You will NOT be able to simply roll-back your DS installation after the encryption goes live. If your post-encryption copy of DS locks you out, any encrypted content will NOT function in an earlier version, because the ability to decrypt that content does not exist in earlier versions. Well you're right there any encrypted content would not work in non keyed versions of DS. Though no content 'period' works in a bricked Poser including your own files. Unless of course daz3d are true to there word and remove the encryption in worst case scenario or an enterprising programmer can script a decrypter for the files in the event the licensing preventing that is void. ( If that worst case happened to DAZ3D)


  Morpheon ( posted at 4:17AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 4:29AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 1:00AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236471](#msg4236471) > Forgive me I thought your issue was what happens to your content if Daz3D becomes unviable. Which rational leads to the question of, if you migrate to Poser what happens to your content if SM becomes unviable. I wasn't talking about bottom lines I was talking about risk mitigation. > > Also just my opinion but speculating about ways to pirate content is probably inadvisable. Sorry -- it's storming here pretty good right now, and the power went out briefly. As far as risk mitigation goes, if SM goes down for good, I will at least have the option of porting what Poser content I can to other apps (Max, C4D, etc.), and LOTS of Poser content is other app compatible (especially if I shop beforehand with the very consideration in mind); on the other hand, if DAZ goes down for good, any DRM content I have is also likely gone for good, because there is absolutely no guarantee that DAZ will or even can distribute a decryption key or unencrypted copies of my content, so the likelihood that ALL OF IT will be gone for good is way better then the likelihood I'll get it in an unencrypted format. It's a guarantee of some recoverable value versus the very real possibility of losing all value, with DAZ on the losing end of that scale. Not advising people on how to pirate content, merely illustrating the fallacy of DAZ thinking leaving in the ability to export DRM content to other apps will keep their DRM secure. Security experts demonstrate all the time how to take down aircraft, how to rob banks, etc., and they're not thieves or terrorists, nor do they condone or encourage the actions of those who are. The exposures that they do are done in the interest of risk mitigation -- same thing here.

  Morpheon ( posted at 4:28AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 1:18AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236472](#msg4236472) >Though no content 'period' works in a bricked Poser including your own files. A six month window to get up to speed with a new app with whatever content you can port versus no window and all your content encrypted and someone else holding the key? Is that even really a choice? > Unless of course daz3d are true to there word and remove the encryption in worst case scenario or an enterprising programmer can script a decrypter for the files in the event the licensing preventing that is void. ( If that worst case happened to DAZ3D) Gee -- wouldn't that be a form of piracy? Because if someone else WERE to take possession of DAZ's servers, they'd also likely retain the rights to the content on it. And anyways, isn't that probably what's going to happen here in the next few weeks or months? Some enterprising individual is going to start posting hacked copies of DS with the encryption spoofed or bypassed in such a way that DS either doesn't bother looking for an encryption key or thinks that all keys (or even no keys) are still good keys. Then, once they figure out how to copy and distribute the files of any piece of encrypted content, anyone with a copy will be able to use that content with a defanged version of DS. That is, IF they don't figure out a way to simply decrypt the content itself.

  Razor42 ( posted at 4:31AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

Strange it's also storming pretty good here too :) Lets hope the power doesn't go out for a week again. If you truly believe what you wrote above all I can do is re-quote myself. I have to say there does seem to be a conflict with the point that the DRM encryption is easy to circumvent, but I'm going to lose my content from it being encrypted. Either the DRM is ironclad and content is totally pirate proof and you *may* lost your content. Or in the event of a disaster there will be enough innovative individuals to help you restore their functionality. You can't have both. My opinion is pretty obvious and my faith in Daz3D has yet to be misplaced but only you can decide what's right for you. > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:13AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236454](#msg4236454) > At the end of the day you're going to need to pick a horse. Honestly if you think that you're going into the future with Poser is more promising and you are going to be able to port a Poser figure/mat/pose/morph/etc over for use in other apps easily and maintain the quality and usability of a DAZ figure/Pose/scene/etc. That your prerogative.


  Morpheon ( posted at 4:32AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

Sorry, guy, but it's way too late and I have to be to work way too early. Have a good one...

  Razor42 ( posted at 4:34AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 4:42AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 9:32PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236475](#msg4236475) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 1:18AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236472](#msg4236472) > > >Though no content 'period' works in a bricked Poser including your own files. > > A six month window to get up to speed with a new app with whatever content you can port versus no window and all your content encrypted and someone else holding the key? Is that even really a choice? > > > Unless of course daz3d are true to there word and remove the encryption in worst case scenario or an enterprising programmer can script a decrypter for the files in the event the licensing preventing that is void. ( If that worst case happened to DAZ3D) > > Gee -- wouldn't that be a form of piracy? Because if someone else WERE to take possession of DAZ's servers, they'd also likely retain the rights to the content on it. And anyways, isn't that probably what's going to happen here in the next few weeks or months? Some enterprising individual is going to start posting hacked copies of DS with the encryption spoofed or bypassed in such a way that DS either doesn't bother looking for an encryption key or thinks that all keys (or even no keys) are still good keys. Then, once they figure out how to copy and distribute the files of any piece of encrypted content, anyone with a copy will be able to use that content with a defanged version of DS. That is, IF they don't figure out a way to simply decrypt the content itself. If any of this is true, where does it leave your issues/fears with the changes? It's not piracy if the license is void. If someone else takes over your content will still be available right? Also the DS hack would need to be reinstituted and circulated with each DS update which would be quite often and Daz3D could counter the hack method with each build.


  Razor42 ( posted at 4:34AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 9:34PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236477](#msg4236477) > Sorry, guy, but it's way too late and I have to be to work way too early. Have a good one... Well gnight to you too "guy" :)


  LPR001 ( posted at 4:42AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

There's another hour of my life I won't get back

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Razor42 ( posted at 4:43AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[LPR001](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=777635) posted at 9:42PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236482](#msg4236482) > There's another hour of my life I won't get back Lol, but think how much you learned... :expressionless:


  LPR001 ( posted at 4:55AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

You know a thread is getting long in the tooth when everybody is saying goodnight to each other. I shall remain calm until it's "Goodnight I will see you in the morning"

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Razor42 ( posted at 5:04AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

Lol, I actually need to attempt to get some work done tomorrow. I have a few idea's I'm looking forward to getting started with. At least you're not firefighting the comparable thread at Daz3D. Surprisingly things have stayed pretty civil in here for the amount of worry the changes are propagating, of course apart from the usual skirmishes.


  Morpheon ( posted at 5:04AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 1:34AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236476](#msg4236476) >I have to say there does seem to be a conflict with the point that the DRM encryption is easy to circumvent, but I'm going to lose my content from it being encrypted. Either >the DRM is ironclad and content is totally pirate proof and you *may* lost your content. Or in the event of a disaster there will be enough innovative individuals to help you >restore their functionality. You can't have both. > > My opinion is pretty obvious and my faith in Daz3D has yet to be misplaced but only you can decide what's right for you. The last thing I'll say (for now, anyways -- I REALLY gotta get to bed). The likelihood of DAZ simply disappearing (or even just the servers) is pretty small, but disasters do happen. (New Orleans with Hurricane Katrina, the Japanese Tsunami, just about any earthquake or wildfire in California, etc.) And that's just the Acts of God-kind of stuff. Then there's the financial stuff -- I don't know how old you are, but you may or may not know about how the video game industry in the 1980s was nearly wiped out and the damage it did to some companies (Atari, Activision, etc.) that you wouldn't have thought were vulnerable (or at least would have thought were better able to weather such events). DAZ may look good on paper now -- many companies do -- and then next week, you see that they're in bankruptcy court, because they or a parent company are on the ropes financially, and all the assets -- buildings, vehicles, furnishings, SERVERS, etc. -- get seized and sold off. When people talk about a culture change at DAZ, they're talking about a very real thing. Maybe DAZ is all hugs and kisses when you're visiting them in their offices, but I'm one of those who noticed a switch, and my experience with them has been a pretty mixed bag, which is precisely why I (and a lot of other people) are a lot less willing to offer them the kind of trust you seem to be -- and certainly not the kind of trust that the scheme they're proposing requires. DAZ MAY do this or that IF they will or IF they can; and if they can't, then MAYBE somebody else will do this or do that (again, IF they can or IF they will) -- that's a lot of ifs and maybes -- too many to be comfortable. Risk mitigation is PRECISELY why I'm firing up Poser now -- it's my transition tool away from DAZ Studio, with the certainty of salvaging at least SOME value rather than risking losing ALL value in DAZ's encryption scheme. And I wasn't kidding when I said I spent about $400 (or more) a month at DAZ. That money will now be going towards a new rig, a license for ZBrush 4R7 and possibly Substance Painter & Substance Designer, as well as subscriptions to Photoshop and Digital-Tutors. I'll even pick up some stuff here at Rendo that I've had on my wish-list for a while -- but not for anything that is for DS-only content and not from anyone who still sells at DAZ. It's gonna have to hurt before DAZ will listen to reason, and the only way to do that is to starve the beast. That's it -- I'm off to bed. Have a good one, and thanks for the conversation...

  Razor42 ( posted at 5:11AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 5:17AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 10:06PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236487](#msg4236487) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 1:34AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236476](#msg4236476) > > >I have to say there does seem to be a conflict with the point that the DRM encryption is easy to circumvent, but I'm going to lose my content from it being encrypted. Either >the DRM is ironclad and content is totally pirate proof and you *may* lost your content. Or in the event of a disaster there will be enough innovative individuals to help you >restore their functionality. You can't have both. > > > > My opinion is pretty obvious and my faith in Daz3D has yet to be misplaced but only you can decide what's right for you. > > The last thing I'll say (for now, anyways -- I REALLY gotta get to bed). > > The likelihood of DAZ simply disappearing (or even just the servers) is pretty small, but disasters do happen. (New Orleans with Hurricane Katrina, the Japanese Tsunami, just about any earthquake or wildfire in California, etc.) And that's just the Acts of God-kind of stuff. Then there's the financial stuff -- I don't know how old you are, but you may or may not know about how the video game industry in the 1980s was nearly wiped out and the damage it did to some companies (Atari, Activision, etc.) that you wouldn't have thought were vulnerable (or at least would have thought were better able to weather such events). DAZ may look good on paper now -- many companies do -- and then next week, you see that they're in bankruptcy court, because they or a parent company are on the ropes financially, and all the assets -- buildings, vehicles, furnishings, SERVERS, etc. -- get seized and sold off. > > When people talk about a culture change at DAZ, they're talking about a very real thing. Maybe DAZ is all hugs and kisses when you're visiting them in their offices, but I'm one of those who noticed a switch, and my experience with them has been a pretty mixed bag, which is precisely why I (and a lot of other people) are a lot less willing to offer them the kind of trust you seem to be -- and certainly not the kind of trust that the scheme they're proposing requires. DAZ MAY do this or that IF they will or IF they can; and if they can't, then MAYBE somebody else will do this or do that (again, IF they can or IF they will) -- that's a lot of ifs and maybes -- too many to be comfortable. > > Risk mitigation is PRECISELY why I'm firing up Poser now -- it's my transition tool away from DAZ Studio, with the certainty of salvaging at least SOME value rather than risking losing ALL value in DAZ's encryption scheme. And I wasn't kidding when I said I spent about $400 (or more) a month at DAZ. That money will now be going towards a new rig, a license for ZBrush 4R7 and possibly Substance Painter & Substance Designer, as well as subscriptions to Photoshop and Digital-Tutors. I'll even pick up some stuff here at Rendo that I've had on my wish-list for a while -- but not for anything that is for DS-only content and not from anyone who still sells at DAZ. It's gonna have to hurt before DAZ will listen to reason, and the only way to do that is to starve the beast. > > That's it -- I'm off to bed. Have a good one, and thanks for the conversation... Night mate, Well it's sad to see you go but you seem like you've made a decision and I can respect that, also the door isn't one way. Hopefully time will ease your concerns and there will be a path for you to return in the future. I hope you acquire all those things on your wishlist DS developers are always in demand ;) Thanks for the convo, **OT Warning** Speaking of the 80s computer issue have you seen it provides some great insights into the issues that created the fall of such mighty publishing houses and is a good trip down nostalgia lane. Here is the trailer if your interested


  LPR001 ( posted at 5:16AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 9:36PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236486](#msg4236486) > Lol, I actually need to attempt to get some work done tomorrow. I have a few idea's I'm looking forward to getting started with. > > At least you're not firefighting the comparable thread at Daz3D. > > Surprisingly things have stayed pretty civil in here for the amount of worry the changes are propagating, of course apart from the usual skirmishes. As long as it remain civil and product bashing in very minimal and kept to the upset over the changes I am fine with it. There is a difference between opinions that is a forum in nature. I am satisfied everybody is still alive and not being picked on for their views in a nasty way. This could go on for a while I am thinking Superbowl party the odd wedding and birthdays to celebrate. It is best we all get along

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  parkdalegardener ( posted at 5:46AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 5:25AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236324](#msg4236324) > [parkdalegardener](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=600365) posted at 1:39AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236313](#msg4236313) > > > As long as Studio can do unencrypted exports then any DRM on imported content is moot. > > So to export a figure as you describe you would need to export the mesh, then the morphs, the weight maps, the JCM's, Then rebuild the figure from the exports, redo the ERC settings, reattach all the texture maps and surface settings. Make sure all the naming conventions are correct or it won't work with other content, Re-save each preset option, reassociate all of the thumbs. Recreate the metadata. Forget any HD settings, Extract the data and create a new product directory wrapper. And at the end deliver it all bug free with no errors working to the same standard as a Daz3D QA'd product. > > Wouldn't it be easier to just create a product and sell it at Daz3D? I already have G1 and G2 running as Poser native. No DS needed. Took 10 minutes. I have props from DAZ that were in Studio formats when purchased. They are working in Lightwave, Poser, and Vue. Took less than 5 minutes. I have G3 running in Lightwave with a Lightwave rig. That too almost 45 minutes. It has a facial rig and uses the same skinning method as Studio. It is no where as difficult as you would have people believe to transfer assets from one format to another unless you lock up the import/export via encryption. People are not forced to create and sell at DAZ. They can use purchased assets in other software. I have no interest in reselling your mesh or pirating it online and that is the attitude that most from DAZ seem to be putting forward. If you are not using our assets directly in Studio then you are a pirate out to rip off DAZ by offering their products elsewhere to the masses or are using them in a format that DAZ isn't getting paid for. Remember; the mesh in Studio was not built in Studio.


  maxgrafix ( posted at 6:11AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 6:15AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:38AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236420](#msg4236420) > This all adds up to, don't try as it can't inevitably be stopped? Unfortunately as a business this is a pretty flimsy option and I definitely wouldn't be putting you on the payroll for advice in this area. I'm having trouble discerning your actual point in all of this other than what I just stated, which is doing nothing, is better than something/anything. **_You're trolling and making things up again about me suggesting DAZ shouldn't go ahead with DRM. The only thing I've said is that DRM has failed because it's been reverse engineered. And as long as there are those who are willing to crack DRM it will remain unfit for purpose. And I wouldn't employ you either. Why?, because you're the most unconvincing PR guru I've ever come across_** > > I think Black__Days just pretty clearly explained above how DRM can be effective if not %100 ironclad guarantee forever of contents security. No one is talking about locking a file up for ever, I'm not sure anyone even thinks this is currently possible. **_Many tech savvy people will disagree. All it takes is a simple internet search to know DRM has failed on many fronts. You know this but still troll this debate with your one sided opinion_** > Why make laws if people will only break them? How effective is a law if it is broken? **_DRM isn't a law!!_** > The one point you have made abundantly clear is **YOU DON"T LIKE DRM**. **_Wrong! I'm all for it, if it worked that is, and you're trolling again because you've clearly lost the debate. Can I suggest you brush up on your debating skills for future reference_**

  Razor42 ( posted at 6:18AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 6:19AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[parkdalegardener](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=600365) posted at 11:13PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236490](#msg4236490) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 5:25AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236324](#msg4236324) > > > [parkdalegardener](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=600365) posted at 1:39AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236313](#msg4236313) > > > > > As long as Studio can do unencrypted exports then any DRM on imported content is moot. > > > > So to export a figure as you describe you would need to export the mesh, then the morphs, the weight maps, the JCM's, Then rebuild the figure from the exports, redo the ERC settings, reattach all the texture maps and surface settings. Make sure all the naming conventions are correct or it won't work with other content, Re-save each preset option, reassociate all of the thumbs. Recreate the metadata. Forget any HD settings, Extract the data and create a new product directory wrapper. And at the end deliver it all bug free with no errors working to the same standard as a Daz3D QA'd product. > > > > Wouldn't it be easier to just create a product and sell it at Daz3D? > > I already have G1 and G2 running as Poser native. No DS needed. Took 10 minutes. > I have props from DAZ that were in Studio formats when purchased. They are working in Lightwave, Poser, and Vue. Took less than 5 minutes. > I have G3 running in Lightwave with a Lightwave rig. That too almost 45 minutes. It has a facial rig and uses the same skinning method as Studio. > It is no where as difficult as you would have people believe to transfer assets from one format to another unless you lock up the import/export via encryption. People are not forced to create and sell at DAZ. They can use purchased assets in other software. I have no interest in reselling your mesh or pirating it online and that is the attitude that most from DAZ seem to be putting forward. If you are not using our assets directly in Studio then you are a pirate out to rip off DAZ by offering their products elsewhere to the masses or are using them in a format that DAZ isn't getting paid for. Remember; the mesh in Studio was not built in Studio. As far as im aware none of what your describing will be affected by encryption of the product files. Export options will remain unchanged with DS you will still br able to do all of that. And i must say the level of skill your describing is probably beyond the scope of what the product encryption is meant to counter as far as piracy goes. What i was saying is there is more to g3 than just a mesh. And rebuilding it the same as the original product is different then porting the mesh to another platform.


  Razor42 ( posted at 6:22AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[maxgrafix](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=240453) posted at 11:20PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236492](#msg4236492) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:38AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236420](#msg4236420) > > > This all adds up to, don't try as it can't inevitably be stopped? Unfortunately as a business this is a pretty flimsy option and I definitely wouldn't be putting you on the payroll for advice in this area. I'm having trouble discerning your actual point in all of this other than what I just stated, which is doing nothing, is better than something/anything. > > **_You're trolling and making things up again about me suggesting DAZ shouldn't go ahead with DRM. The only thing I've said is that DRM has failed because it's been reverse engineered. And as long as there are those who are willing to crack DRM it will remain unfit for purpose. And I wouldn't employ you either. Why?, because you're the most unconvincing PR guru I've ever come across_** > > > > > I think Black__Days just pretty clearly explained above how DRM can be effective if not %100 ironclad guarantee forever of contents security. No one is talking about locking a file up for ever, I'm not sure anyone even thinks this is currently possible. > > **_Many tech savvy people will disagree. All it takes is a simple internet search to know DRM has failed on many fronts. > You know this but still troll this debate with your one sided opinion_** > > > > Why make laws if people will only break them? How effective is a law if it is broken? > > **_DRM isn't a law!!_** > > > The one point you have made abundantly clear is **YOU DON"T LIKE DRM**. > > **_Wrong! I'm all for it, if it worked that is, and you're trolling again because you've clearly lost the debate. Can I suggest you brush up on your debating skills for future reference_** Lol, okay mate :D getting a little personal aren't we?


  maxgrafix ( posted at 6:33AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 6:36AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 12:22PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236494](#msg4236494) > Lol, okay mate :D getting a little personal aren't we? You've been doing that yourself in the form of constant badgering. If you can't push a one sided opinion on people who know you're argument is flawed then I suggest you take a different approach. That's how a debate works.

  LPR001 ( posted at 6:48AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

@parkdalegardener This is why it is all a storm in a teacup as I stated at the start of the thread. Daz has a sales pitch "Your go to store for content store" it has all the logos Unity, Maya etc. I purchased from and a sketchy memory it's called 3D Morph character pack in Unity just a month or so ago. I also recall it saying 'From the team that manages Daz" or similar which is why I got it. Hardly the words of a company about to rip the rug out from under it's customers which is what is being claimed here. Just about everything I do with the Daz range is not inside Daz itself. In fact until I started working here it was merely a content store and a means to export the content out or make my own characters with the intention to do the same. It is a no brainer really in 6 months time 4.9 is taken up and everybody is still going about their biz all their assets they paid good money for are still in their hot little hands they will wonder what all the fuss is about. I believe Daz would not want to lose its export share as this would be considerable. Some companies have the basic user license and then the export licensing as option. I have put 1492 products through in the last 5-6 months and 1400 would have left Daz already I live in fear of my bank statements. I just can't see Daz wanting to relieve me of such fears anytime soon I think they are a little sharper than that in the Intelligence Dept.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Razor42 ( posted at 7:00AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 7:14AM Mon, 02 November 2015

Sigh, ok Max i will take the bait and play for a bit. There are a few contradictions in your last statement generally within the same paragraph as the statement was made. > You're trolling and making things up again about me suggesting DAZ shouldn't go ahead with DRM. The only thing I've said is that DRM has failed because it's been reverse engineered. Here you suggest you have no issue with DS encryption for files or DRM if you prefer. Then go on with > And as long as there are those who are willing to crack DRM it will remain unfit for purpose. Closing the paragraph with a statement that it is unfit for purpose. It seems suggesting it is unfit for purpose and "failed" would be directly opposed to you having no problem with it. > You know this but still troll this debate with your one sided opinion Wouldn't generally a debate consist of two parties with one sided opinions debating about the merits of there own viewpoint. So stating that someone who is involved in a debate has a one side viewpoint would pretty much describe someone who is involved in a debate. > > Why make laws if people will only break them? How effective is a law if it is broken? > > DRM isn't a law!! This one was just plain evasion, im well aware DRM Isnt a law nor was that my point, which im pretty sure your well aware. > **_Wrong! I'm all for it, if it worked that is, and you're trolling again because you've clearly lost the debate. Again this is a blatantly contradictory statement, i stated you appear to be against drm. You then proclaimed that statement as wrong! your all for it. Then added the contradictory statement "if it worked that is" imferring your not for it because you do not believe it works. I edited out most of the name calling and overt flame baiting from your statement and just addressed your responses but i needed to leave some in as they formed part of the base statement.


  Razor42 ( posted at 7:29AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 7:40AM Mon, 02 November 2015

Just to add, a debate doesnt work by changing your argument part way through a debate. It works by stating your case or argument adding supporting data. Raising attention to key facts of the argument. Then listening to the opposing argument respectfully. Then countering the opposing argument, again respectfully, with any valid points or drawing attention to flaws in the opposing argument. The opposing side then has an opportunity to rebuke. Then the winner of the debate is generally judged or decided by a 3rd party who give equal consideration to both sides of the debated topic. Who then goes on to decide a winner. But that truly is a debate for another forum.


  Razor42 ( posted at 8:05AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 8:07AM Mon, 02 November 2015

On that note, i think i have made my opinions abundantly clear in this "debate" so at this point will step aside and let it progress on its merry way and allow others to make their case. Happy rendering all with or without DRM. Someone send me a PM when they decide the winner ;)


  LPR001 ( posted at 8:18AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

Then the winner of the debate is generally judged or decided by a 3rd party - it is a tie @maxgrafix @Razor42 Keep a level head please. - Challenge the context of the other members ramblings not the individual. Name calling is not acceptable. Members are not expected to agree on everything it would be a rather boring if you did. Just make sure respect is given from all sides. Thank You Someone once said to me if you use the word "You" in it then it is personal. Still cracks me up everytime it springs to my mind, I use it often as it really makes a mess of someone's argument. Just tryin to think of who that was........................................................................ Wait a minute!

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  wolf359 ( posted at 9:13AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 9:18AM Mon, 02 November 2015

**"@wolf359 Perhaps it is best if we don't go labelling other countries as enemy lands I doubt it would be helpful sending this thread along its merry way. Renderosity is a global website DRM is a global issue. Please keep this in mind"** Sorry perhaps I should Clarify that I mean countries that have proven themsevles to be "enemies" of U.S. Copyright laws Not going to Derail the thread further with specifics but I invite you to ask Microsoft from where they have found the greatest number of Illegal Copies of "office" or Ask Paramount where "R5" Copy or "Cam" Copy of their Latest blockbuster often originates. back to topic **"Apparently that's not a viewpoint you can relate to. DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997."** Perhaps not but as a Character animator I can attest that posers animation tools give me the exact same Experience I "enjoyed" back in 1997 :confounded: (Thanking Allah for the Existence of Iclone).



MY WEBSITE

MY IMDB LISTING



  maxgrafix ( posted at 10:42AM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 10:54AM Mon, 02 November 2015

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 3:40PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236498](#msg4236498) > Sigh, ok Max i will take the bait and play for a bit. **_If you can't stand the heat...._** > There are a few contradictions in your last statement generally within the same paragraph as the statement was made. _**I've made no contradictions. All I've said is I think DRM has failed. While You on the other hand keep implying that I'm in some way suggesting companies shouldn't protect their software, which couldn't be further from the truth**_ > > You're trolling and making things up again about me suggesting DAZ shouldn't go ahead with DRM. The only thing I've said is that DRM has failed because it's been reverse engineered. > Here you suggest you have no issue with DS encryption for files or DRM if you prefer. Then go on with _**That's correct. But you kept suggesting I was in against it when I never once suggest that I was!**_ > > And as long as there are those who are willing to crack DRM it will remain unfit for purpose. > > Closing the paragraph with a statement that it is unfit for purpose. It seems suggesting it is unfit for purpose and "failed" would be directly opposed to you having no problem with it. **_DRM has been broken, cracked, removed from content. Just accept it and move on_** > > You know this but still troll this debate with your one sided opinion > > Wouldn't generally a debate consist of two parties with one sided opinions debating about the merits of there own viewpoint. So stating that someone who is involved in a debate has a one side viewpoint would pretty much describe someone who is involved in a debate. _**You refuse to aknowledge that DRM has been broken which it has (And you know it has) and have showed a sleight of hand in suggesting I some how hate DRM. What more is there to say except spin away!**_ > > > Why make laws if people will only break them? How effective is a law if it is broken? > > > > DRM isn't a law!! > > This one was just plain evasion, im well aware DRM Isnt a law nor was that my point, which im pretty sure your well aware. **_I'm aware of your ploy to distort the debate_** > > **_Wrong! I'm all for it, if it worked that is, and you're trolling again because you've clearly lost the debate. > > Again this is a blatantly contradictory statement, i stated you appear to be against drm. You then proclaimed that statement as wrong! your all for it. Then added the contradictory statement "if it worked that is" imferring your not for it because you do not believe it works. **_It was you who made insinuations by implying I was against DRM when I never said I was. Do I really have to repeat myself?_** > I edited out most of the name calling and overt flame baiting from your statement and just addressed your responses but i needed to leave some in as they formed part of the base statement. **_If pointing out that you're a troll has ruffled your feathers I suggest you take a breather. Or find a different career :)_**

  maxgrafix ( posted at 10:50AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 4:47PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236499](#msg4236499) > Just to add, a debate doesnt work by changing your argument part way through a debate. I never did. it was you who kept suggesting I was against DRM. Have a nice day!

  LPR001 ( posted at 11:03AM Mon, 02 November 2015 

@wolf359 Understood I think leaders and civilians in all countries including the US would be guilty of not respecting another countries laws and rights, it's is general practice. I was referring to the fact this is a global site and we shouldn't put certain nationalities into one shoe fits all category as some of these nationalities may enjoy the use of what Rendo has to offer and while may or may not agree with everything that goes on in their homeland they should at least not be offended here by our comments. I am glad you have mentioned Microsoft a lot has been made of the reason to not have the DRM due to the big fail in the music industry's attempt. I am in the music industry so I have refrained from making any comment so far in regard to this as I don't want to appear like I have my own agenda or steer the topic off course. I would have to give myself TOS warning I will put forward one point only re: DRM fail Insert a DRM encrypted CD into a drive do I want to Play or Rip the CD? Microsoft = Don't steal our product but we are quite happy to give you the tools to kill another industry. It is only one cog in the wheel but a pretty big one. I know if it wasn't there someone would still find a way, but it would never have been anywhere near as bad as it got. The DRM required all the entertainment and software industries to work together from day one and this simply did not happen. As usual they just looked after their own interest until the tables turned, then started squealing like stuck pigs. When Win 10 comes back as paid app after their 1 year free is up. I am thinking DRM protected monthly subscription. LOL.... LOL. After all it make sense $120 a year Sub or $129 home edition and you would hang onto it for 2-3 years via the this method. This will be something for us all to look forward to. If this thread is still going we can just tack it on the end to keep it all nice and tidy

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  JasonGalterio ( posted at 1:31PM Mon, 02 November 2015 

I am trying to word this very carefully. My intention is not to flame bait or stir up another round of speculation. My only intention is to try and see what I am missing. All the way through this winding discussion I have felt that I am missing a key bit of the equation. Things just don't add up without these details. And I am struggling to balance the equation. 1. DAZ Connect. Integrated into the system, provides store suggestions, allows items to be installed without using a secondary program. Items downloaded through DAZ Connect will have DRM incorporated because DAZ needs to protect its assets. Okay, no problem. On board so far. 2. DIM. Will still be supported. No fundamental changes to it. New items will still be available through DIM, just as they have in the past. While also being available through DAZ Connect. DIM items will not be encrypted. This is where my mental train leaves the tracks. DAZ is obviously investing money into the DRM transition, but while leaving the same items non-DRMed. So then what is being gained for DAZ? I don't want any wild speculation about subscriptions, etc. etc. I would like to have an official answer. I know that this isn't the official forum and the odds of their being an official answer here is low to zero. However those that can provide an official answer do read these posts. And I am hoping that this could be addressed somewhere. I think balancing this equation would do a lot to assuage some of the panic. Personally I would accept an answer like "well, we were in here anyway, so we thought we'd do it at the same time."

  malwat ( posted at 1:56PM Mon, 02 November 2015 

Any system that requires us to open our computers to it has to be viewed with suspicion, if only because our security is only as good as the security of that system. Hacking occurs, and suddenly we find that we are more vulnerable. I am constantly undergoing software amendments and updates on my smartphone, often whether I want them or not. Typically, I get adverts I don't want. But let us consider the simple fact that a copy of most well-known books is not going to materially change between first publication and re-publication perhaps decades or even centuries afterwards. If I choose to acquire the version in which modern idiom replaces (say) Jane Austen's original form, it is down to me, but if I have DRM right, that no longer applies - however the owner of the system decides, the change occurs. The debate above has been in places puerile, but the issues remain constant. If any company imposes a method of 'protecting' 'its' material which ensures that they can control access to that material (even if they do not actually do so at first) is acting uncompetitively and not in the best interests of users. To use the analogy already suggested, laws are meant to be broken, and more importantly laws that do not serve the people should be broken. In GB we tend to toe the line, but in France they simply ignore unreasonable or draconian rules. Just because something is possible is no reason whyit should be done. I just hope that the management at Daz has the sense to quietly drop this idea,and return to the friendly and generally enjoyable status quo.

Malwat

Getting younger by the day; getting older by the minute....

  FlagonsWorkshop ( posted at 2:46PM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[JasonGalterio](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=711010) posted at 2:40PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236546](#msg4236546) > I am trying to word this very carefully. My intention is not to flame bait or stir up another round of speculation. My only intention is to try and see what I am missing. > > All the way through this winding discussion I have felt that I am missing a key bit of the equation. Things just don't add up without these details. And I am struggling to balance the equation. > > 1. DAZ Connect. Integrated into the system, provides store suggestions, allows items to be installed without using a secondary program. Items downloaded through DAZ Connect will have DRM incorporated because DAZ needs to protect its assets. Okay, no problem. On board so far. > > 2. DIM. Will still be supported. No fundamental changes to it. New items will still be available through DIM, just as they have in the past. While also being available through DAZ Connect. DIM items will not be encrypted. This is where my mental train leaves the tracks. > > DAZ is obviously investing money into the DRM transition, but while leaving the same items non-DRMed. So then what is being gained for DAZ? > > I don't want any wild speculation about subscriptions, etc. etc. I would like to have an official answer. I know that this isn't the official forum and the odds of their being an official answer here is low to zero. However those that can provide an official answer do read these posts. And I am hoping that this could be addressed somewhere. > > I think balancing this equation would do a lot to assuage some of the panic. Personally I would accept an answer like "well, we were in here anyway, so we thought we'd do it at the same time." I think the idea somewhere along the line is to put out some content in DRM form only. Clearly it completely defeats the purpose to put out both a DRM and non-DRM version of the same product. This thing is just Beta at this point though, so it's all a lot of speculation. Since what DAZ is really doing is protecting the PA's, I would have to guess that some PA's will opt for DRM and some will not. DIM will have to be supported for quite a while, to get rid of entirely they need to rewrite at least Bryce and Carrarra and possibly Hexagon. Then of course they sell items that are not used in the DAZ program itself. I really think they have better options then putting DRM on the content itself if they want to protect content. Then again I think that putting DRM on entertainment items has never been shown to increase sales, and I am still waiting for a counter argument on that.

  Razor42 ( posted at 5:29PM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 5:35PM Mon, 02 November 2015

"If pointing out that you're a troll has ruffled your feathers I suggest you take a breather. Or find a different career :)" **Trolls don't have feathers!** .... .... At least that i know of, but i will bow down here to your experience in that particular area. :)


  Morpheon ( posted at 8:18PM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[parkdalegardener](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=600365) posted at 5:15PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236490](#msg4236490) > I already have G1 and G2 running as Poser native. No DS needed. Took 10 minutes. > I have props from DAZ that were in Studio formats when purchased. They are working in Lightwave, Poser, and Vue. Took less than 5 minutes. > I have G3 running in Lightwave with a Lightwave rig. That too almost 45 minutes. It has a facial rig and uses the same skinning method as Studio. And at some point in the next couple of weeks, I would love to talk to you about how you accomplished that. Since I'm starting out as a Poser noob, I haven't used DSON at all, and in looking through some threads about it, I keep coming up on references that it isn't even necessary. I would love to be able to expand my options by continuing to use Genesis and Genesis 2 in Poser and possibly Blender.

  Morpheon ( posted at 8:32PM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 8:37PM Mon, 02 November 2015

[JasonGalterio](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=711010) posted at 5:23PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236546](#msg4236546) > DAZ is obviously investing money into the DRM transition, but while leaving the same items non-DRMed. So then what is being gained for DAZ? Items are only remaining unencrypted for the immediate future, and anything downloaded via DIM and ZIPs are unencrypted. DAZ promises (for whatever THAT'S worth) that these methods will be available for at least a few years yet, but at some point, new content will become DAZ Connect-downloadable only (my guess is that Michael 7 kicks it all off). I would look for DAZ to kill the ZIPs and DIM entirely as soon as possible after that, leaving only DAZ Connect (with its content-encrypting ways) as the only means to download content from the DAZ store. It's already been stated openly in the DAZ forums that DAZ Connect encrypts key files of everything that passes through it, so even older pre-DRM content (V4 and M4, for example) will be encrypted if downloaded through it. To encrypt some items but not others would be for DAZ to tell one content creator that their work is worthy of whatever protection their DRM can provide, but that another content creator's work is not, and I can see a revolt happening if they were to do that.

  semiramis ( posted at 9:01PM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[JasonGalterio](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=711010) posted at 9:47PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236546](#msg4236546) > I am trying to word this very carefully. My intention is not to flame bait or stir up another round of speculation. My only intention is to try and see what I am missing. > > All the way through this winding discussion I have felt that I am missing a key bit of the equation. Things just don't add up without these details. And I am struggling to balance the equation. > > 1. DAZ Connect. Integrated into the system, provides store suggestions, allows items to be installed without using a secondary program. Items downloaded through DAZ Connect will have DRM incorporated because DAZ needs to protect its assets. Okay, no problem. On board so far. > > 2. DIM. Will still be supported. No fundamental changes to it. New items will still be available through DIM, just as they have in the past. While also being available through DAZ Connect. DIM items will not be encrypted. This is where my mental train leaves the tracks. > > DAZ is obviously investing money into the DRM transition, but while leaving the same items non-DRMed. So then what is being gained for DAZ? > > I don't want any wild speculation about subscriptions, etc. etc. I would like to have an official answer. I know that this isn't the official forum and the odds of their being an official answer here is low to zero. However those that can provide an official answer do read these posts. And I am hoping that this could be addressed somewhere. > > I think balancing this equation would do a lot to assuage some of the panic. Personally I would accept an answer like "well, we were in here anyway, so we thought we'd do it at the same time." Old and Current Items: In DAZ Connect and DIM at same time, encrypted and not-encrypted respectively. There is not point to set old things, already shared in the web, in only DAZ Connect state. New Future Items: Only DAZ Connect, only encrypted. Date for new future items only encrypted: indeterminated.

  Khory_D ( posted at 9:16PM Mon, 02 November 2015 

_Since what DAZ is really doing is protecting the PA's, I would have to guess that some PA's will opt for DRM and some will not. _ I don't see that as a viable option. QA has more than enough to do for us as is without having to check some list about final packaging and placement for download of the product. It would also be very confusing for customers.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  ssgbryan ( posted at 9:30PM Mon, 02 November 2015 

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 8:23PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236601](#msg4236601) > [parkdalegardener](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=600365) posted at 5:15PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236490](#msg4236490) > > > I already have G1 and G2 running as Poser native. No DS needed. Took 10 minutes. > > I have props from DAZ that were in Studio formats when purchased. They are working in Lightwave, Poser, and Vue. Took less than 5 minutes. > > I have G3 running in Lightwave with a Lightwave rig. That too almost 45 minutes. It has a facial rig and uses the same skinning method as Studio. > > And at some point in the next couple of weeks, I would love to talk to you about how you accomplished that. Since I'm starting out as a Poser noob, I haven't used DSON at all, and in looking through some threads about it, I keep coming up on references that it isn't even necessary. I would love to be able to expand my options by continuing to use Genesis and Genesis 2 in Poser and possibly Blender. You start with File - Export...... No need for DSON - it is always going to be the weak link because it runs through python. I am working on a tutorial for gettting your DS content working in Poser as Poser native files. I have portion on figures done, and now I am working my way through getting clothing working. Fun part begins with turning things like the Edwardian dress into a conforming/dynamic hybrid. I was hoping to be done by now, but real life has been giving me a hard time lately.


  Razor42 ( posted at 10:33PM Mon, 02 November 2015 · edited on 10:47PM Mon, 02 November 2015

[ssgbryan](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=315185) posted at 3:22PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236612](#msg4236612) > [Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 8:23PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236601](#msg4236601) > > > [parkdalegardener](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=600365) posted at 5:15PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - [#4236490](#msg4236490) > > > > > I already have G1 and G2 running as Poser native. No DS needed. Took 10 minutes. > > > I have props from DAZ that were in Studio formats when purchased. They are working in Lightwave, Poser, and Vue. Took less than 5 minutes. > > > I have G3 running in Lightwave with a Lightwave rig. That too almost 45 minutes. It has a facial rig and uses the same skinning method as Studio. > > > > And at some point in the next couple of weeks, I would love to talk to you about how you accomplished that. Since I'm starting out as a Poser noob, I haven't used DSON at all, and in looking through some threads about it, I keep coming up on references that it isn't even necessary. I would love to be able to expand my options by continuing to use Genesis and Genesis 2 in Poser and possibly Blender. > > You start with File - Export...... No need for DSON - it is always going to be the weak link because it runs through python. > > I am working on a tutorial for gettting your DS content working in Poser as Poser native files. I have portion on figures done, and now I am working my way through getting clothing working. Fun part begins with turning things like the Edwardian dress into a conforming/dynamic hybrid. > > I was hoping to be done by now, but real life has been giving me a hard time lately. While we're OT, just to ask the question, all of these Ports of Genesis (1,2 or 3) figures do feature **all** of the same functionality as Genesis does in Daz Studio with the same compatibility with all supporting products such as hair poses morphs etc? Or are they closer to a nerfed/Hacked version using some of the foundations of the Genesis figures like the mesh and textures for example. In a effect a Genestein or Frankenesis figure? Because for example I would say the base Mesh is about 10% of what makes Genesis 3, Genesis 3 in Daz Studio. I am asking because it may be great to have a figure in an alternate program, but where do all of the resources for it then come from then? It would seem like a full time job if everything for the **new** figure needs to be also hacked modified to work with the figure. And I do know to some there hobby is more based on this form of art and truly its amazing sometimes what they discover or cobble together to make work where it shouldn't. But for many they will basically just end up with a less functional figure with little supporting content. Making it not truly an alternative option. But more a tinkerers passion project. So for example If I port Genesis to Poser as a native figure. And I really want to make Genesis into the Troll or Gorilla figure available at Daz3D for Genesis can I just buy this content and use it? Or do I need to use a hack type process and it may or may not work as expected depending on certain factors? Genesis 3 in Lightwave is awesome, what are my options for pants for the figure once there? It may help those considering this as an alternative to know what they're in for if they decide to pursue this option to maintain content viability.


  LPR001 ( posted at 11:43PM Mon, 02 November 2015 

@Razor42 You are correct there is some exceptions but the procedure is an ugly frankenstein affair. I export characters out of Daz for use in animation. I am stuck with the Genesis, Genesis 2 M&F and all of their derivatives. Pre Gen is out and Genesis 3 at this point is also a possibility and I have sent some versions out but the manual work required make this concept somewhat ordinary for the net result. I managed Laura but by time I finished it was a Genesis 2 Laura lookalike and sitting back looking at her it was apparent that the time spent was out of curiosity over any real desire to have Laura appear in a short film or music clip. Aiko 3 I would love to use Victoria 4 is another character I would really like to sort and to date I have managed to export and everything looks great some adjustments later she looks identical to the V4 in Daz. I have managed to overcome some issues. However as stunning as she is once gifted with a motion file bvh etc the sheer beauty soon becomes a thing of the past. There is nothing sexy about V4 when her breasts have passed through her body and trail a foot behind her. Good for one horror flick only I guess. The breastback of notre dame is a good starting point. Poser characters I can take them out no probs but I have to work on the motions using keyframe save I am currently creating a couple of simple walks etc in a curve editor to save the motion files and see how it goes in the target application I would only consider the couple of anime characters . Again with so much on the market these characters are so yesterday *(All platforms not a Poser dig) The earlier stuff can sure have a high polycount vs quality that is not really worth the trouble for animation, My Genesis clothed usually exceeds anything of similar setup on a G2 by 200'000. This is also why I am not too worried about the DRM the gaming industry is huge Daz are hardly going to be taking themselves out of the market. If I pay for the right to use I expect that right to be honored. I have other character builders that do a great job so I don't have to get down on my knees and beg for mercy either. Ability to do this stops the money stops and this would not be out of spite just no further use. I purchased Daz's 3D Morph characters packs in Unity a month or so ago so I am sure they have their interests well and truly in letting people carry on as normal.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  ssgbryan ( posted at 10:25AM Tue, 03 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 7:18AM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236618](#msg4236618) > While we're OT, just to ask the question, all of these Ports of Genesis (1,2 or 3) figures do feature **all** of the same functionality as Genesis does in Daz Studio with the same compatibility with all supporting products such as hair poses morphs etc? > > Or are they closer to a nerfed/Hacked version using some of the foundations of the Genesis figures like the mesh and textures for example. In a effect a Genestein or Frankenesis figure? Because for example I would say the base Mesh is about 10% of what makes Genesis 3, Genesis 3 in Daz Studio. > > I am asking because it may be great to have a figure in an alternate program, but where do all of the resources for it then come from then? It would seem like a full time job if everything for the **new** figure needs to be also hacked modified to work with the figure. And I do know to some there hobby is more based on this form of art and truly its amazing sometimes what they discover or cobble together to make work where it shouldn't. But for many they will basically just end up with a less functional figure with little supporting content. Making it not truly an alternative option. But more a tinkerers passion project. > > So for example If I port Genesis to Poser as a native figure. And I really want to make Genesis into the Troll or Gorilla figure available at Daz3D for Genesis can I just buy this content and use it? Or do I need to use a hack type process and it may or may not work as expected depending on certain factors? Genesis 3 in Lightwave is awesome, what are my options for pants for the figure once there? It may help those considering this as an alternative to know what they're in for if they decide to pursue this option to maintain content viability. Yep. It isn't a "hack". I can't speak to LPR001's issues with animation, I don't animate - I use Poser for illustrating graphic novels and the genesis 1 & 2 figures work just fine. When I started my research, my goal was to get Dariofish's Aliens working in Poser for my Star Trek Fan-Fic, along with Luthbel's Cthulhu for my horror-fic. All the morph dials work in Poser. I haven't fooled around with the HD nonsense, but I other folks have - from what I remember, one had to push the subdivision in Poser up to 3 to see the difference. I have a couple of HD characters and they seem to run fine at sub-d 1. (Which is where you will take your genesis figures in Poser.) Genesis 3 isn't an option at this point (so you won't have access to the fat chick) due to how the face is rigged. (Shrdavid built a G3 Sydney for Poser 8 that used facial rigging, but the Poser team went in another direction - the ability to add support for facial bones is there, but I don't know if a cost-benefit analysis shows it to be worthwhile.) All genesis brings to the table is animatable joint centers (Which Poser has supported since at least Poser 5 that I am personally aware of - See Apollo Maximus from a decade ago.) and weight mapping along 3 axis, as opposed to Poser, which has weight mapping along 1 axis. That is the only difference. If one goes this route, most of your time would be spent in restructuring what passes for a runtime in DS (and putting PCFs where they actually belong, as opposed to stuffing every conceivable file type under the Pose subfolder - or better yet, converting them to Poser-native files, to also eliminate the need for DSON - saving it out is a 2 second operation. There is 1 vendor that actually makes native Poser companion files, as opposed to the fake ones most DS vendors make). You have to do some planning ahead of time, due to the way DS generates a figure (example - many female characters come with a base gens - you would need to do some simple file rearranging to keep them from showing up on Skyler, for instance.) Most folks do that since there is no rhyme or reason to subfolder organization in DS anyway. Whether exporting from DS via File - Export, or using DSON - a figure is built with every single morph the program can "see". This can make a figure quite RAM intensive. Again, planning ahead in runtime structure makes these problems go away. But we should move back on topic. One of the issues that hasn't been addressed vis-a-vis staying on DS 4.8 forever is if a future change to the underlying operating system that breaks DS 4.8. This has already happened more than once in the OSX world (10-4 to 10.5) - that's is why Hexagon didn't work under OSX for 4 years. How many of you are willing to chance that? DAZ depreciates earlier versions as each new version is released.


  chaecuna ( posted at 11:21AM Tue, 03 November 2015 

[ssgbryan](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=315185) posted at 6:20PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236680](#msg4236680) > One of the issues that hasn't been addressed vis-a-vis staying on DS 4.8 forever is if a future change to the underlying operating system that breaks DS 4.8. This has already happened more than once in the OSX world (10-4 to 10.5) - that's is why Hexagon didn't work under OSX for 4 years. How many of you are willing to chance that? DAZ depreciates earlier versions as each new version is released. Maybe, bit by bit, Studio might not be the only game in town... ![di.jpg](https://bw-1651cf0d2f737d7adeab84d339dbabd3-forumpro.s3.amazonaws.com/forum_12452/thread_2895510/message_4236689/file_f0935e4cd5920aa6c7c996a5ee53a70f.jpg)

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 11:40AM Tue, 03 November 2015 · edited on 11:45AM Tue, 03 November 2015

[ssgbryan](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=315185) posted at 12:34PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236680](#msg4236680) > > One of the issues that hasn't been addressed vis-a-vis staying on DS 4.8 forever is if a future change to the underlying operating system that breaks DS 4.8. This has already happened more than once in the OSX world (10-4 to 10.5) - that's is why Hexagon didn't work under OSX for 4 years. How many of you are willing to chance that? DAZ depreciates earlier versions as each new version is released. If you're referring when Apple dropped Rosetta support, then your argument is very misleading as every piece of software broke that relied on it, requiring you to upgrade to programs that used the intel architecture exclusively. Very few of those upgrades were free and some programs just died in the transition. There is a development cost to updating programs, if resources aren't there at the time to do the work, the updating won't happen until those resources are freed... because that's how businesses work. The thing about OS upgrades, particularly on a Mac is that you aren't guaranteed a free upgrade if you decide to switch to a new OS. Apple even killed some of their own programs with no replacement when you moved to a different OS, so I'm not sure why you would single out DAZ for something Apple (and Microsoft) does too when you update. Keep in mind also when people upgraded to IE11, it killed their versions of Poser until SM made a patch for the newer versions, but some versions got depreciated as a result.

  wolf359 ( posted at 11:40AM Tue, 03 November 2015 

@LPR001 have you tried the MDD/Obj export options?? I am using this methodology to get genesis 1 ,2 figures animated in maxon c4d . It's quite a smooth pipeline.



MY WEBSITE

MY IMDB LISTING



  FlagonsWorkshop ( posted at 12:04PM Tue, 03 November 2015 

[Khory_D](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=393006) posted at 11:53AM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236609](#msg4236609) > _Since what DAZ is really doing is protecting the PA's, I would have to guess that some PA's will opt for DRM and some will not. _ > > I don't see that as a viable option. QA has more than enough to do for us as is without having to check some list about final packaging and placement for download of the product. It would also be very confusing for customers. Then DAZ is going to lose some PA's since some have expressed the opinion on the Message boards that they do not want their product encrypted. Which is what is the problem with the way DAZ is going about it, some people just will not tolerate encrypted content on general principle. So the question is, will the customers they lose through encryption be offset by incoming new customers from the warez sites? Survey says... never happened in the past for entertainment software. That's why companies moved away from it. It's not that DRM can't work, it's just that it never generates increased sales. Or does anybody have something that shows that isn't true? The only times I know of that DRM has increased sales is if the software is used by businesses that can be sued if caught using unlicensed versions. You can't increase sales by inconveniencing your customers.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 1:48PM Tue, 03 November 2015 · edited on 1:50PM Tue, 03 November 2015

[diogenese19348](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=679633) posted at 1:38PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236699](#msg4236699) > [Khory_D](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=393006) posted at 11:53AM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236609](#msg4236609) > > > _Since what DAZ is really doing is protecting the PA's, I would have to guess that some PA's will opt for DRM and some will not. _ > > > > I don't see that as a viable option. QA has more than enough to do for us as is without having to check some list about final packaging and placement for download of the product. It would also be very confusing for customers. > > Then DAZ is going to lose some PA's since some have expressed the opinion on the Message boards that they do not want their product encrypted. Which is what is the problem with the way DAZ is going about it, some people just will not tolerate encrypted content on general principle. So the question is, will the customers they lose through encryption be offset by incoming new customers from the warez sites? Survey says... never happened in the past for entertainment software. That's why companies moved away from it. It's not that DRM can't work, it's just that it never generates increased sales. Or does anybody have something that shows that isn't true? > > The only times I know of that DRM has increased sales is if the software is used by businesses that can be sued if caught using unlicensed versions. > > You can't increase sales by inconveniencing your customers. It's not about increasing sales, DRM isn't a incentive to buy, it is for those that want to use it that did not pay for it or do not abide by the licensing agreement of the product. So it may not get people to buy it that would not buy it anyway, but it does attempt to protect more of the casual piracy that goes on and sends a message that this type of sharing isn't condoned where not protecting it in light of piracy sends a totally opposite message. In the past, there was less of a need for certain things to be protected because of the ecosystem where sites, customers and the producer kept the whole thing honest or had a recourse to remove content that was illegal. If a file was illegally hosted, all the copyright user had to do was to make a request to take it down and the site abided by that, which in term kept the consumer ease of use high. However the system is broken to the point that the copyright holder has no choice but to add more protection to the product because the sites aren't honoring the take down notices, which then inconveniences the consumer.

  FlagonsWorkshop ( posted at 3:46PM Tue, 03 November 2015 

[Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 3:38PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236723](#msg4236723) > [diogenese19348](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=679633) posted at 1:38PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236699](#msg4236699) > > > [Khory_D](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=393006) posted at 11:53AM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236609](#msg4236609) > > > > > _Since what DAZ is really doing is protecting the PA's, I would have to guess that some PA's will opt for DRM and some will not. _ > > > > > > I don't see that as a viable option. QA has more than enough to do for us as is without having to check some list about final packaging and placement for download of the product. It would also be very confusing for customers. > > > > Then DAZ is going to lose some PA's since some have expressed the opinion on the Message boards that they do not want their product encrypted. Which is what is the problem with the way DAZ is going about it, some people just will not tolerate encrypted content on general principle. So the question is, will the customers they lose through encryption be offset by incoming new customers from the warez sites? Survey says... never happened in the past for entertainment software. That's why companies moved away from it. It's not that DRM can't work, it's just that it never generates increased sales. Or does anybody have something that shows that isn't true? > > > > The only times I know of that DRM has increased sales is if the software is used by businesses that can be sued if caught using unlicensed versions. > > > > You can't increase sales by inconveniencing your customers. > > It's not about increasing sales, DRM isn't a incentive to buy, it is for those that want to use it that did not pay for it or do not abide by the licensing agreement of the product. So it may not get people to buy it that would not buy it anyway, but it does attempt to protect more of the casual piracy that goes on and sends a message that this type of sharing isn't condoned where not protecting it in light of piracy sends a totally opposite message. > > In the past, there was less of a need for certain things to be protected because of the ecosystem where sites, customers and the producer kept the whole thing honest or had a recourse to remove content that was illegal. If a file was illegally hosted, all the copyright user had to do was to make a request to take it down and the site abided by that, which in term kept the consumer ease of use high. However the system is broken to the point that the copyright holder has no choice but to add more protection to the product because the sites aren't honoring the take down notices, which then inconveniences the consumer. Hey, I'm an artist, and I know the pain of somebody ripping off your work, going so far as removing your watermarks, adding theirs, and claiming they created it. But from a business standpoint, the only reason to bother with DRM to start with is the idea that reduced piracy increases sales. That just has never been statistically proven for entertainment digital items in any form. Now if DAZ discovered there is a black market for the SALE of DAZ content, that might be addressable with DRM. Or better yet legal avenues. I personally don't have any problem continuing to buy DRM items from DAZ as long as that DRM does not get in the way of me using the items. I just don't think it is going to do them any good in increasing sales. I'm also not sure it was the wisest idea to publicly admit on their own forum that there were places you could find DAZ content for free. They'd probably have been better off not advertising that.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 4:12PM Tue, 03 November 2015 

[diogenese19348](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=679633) posted at 5:10PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236751](#msg4236751) > [Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 3:38PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236723](#msg4236723) > > > [diogenese19348](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=679633) posted at 1:38PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236699](#msg4236699) > > > > > [Khory_D](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=393006) posted at 11:53AM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236609](#msg4236609) > > > > > > > _Since what DAZ is really doing is protecting the PA's, I would have to guess that some PA's will opt for DRM and some will not. _ > > > > > > > > I don't see that as a viable option. QA has more than enough to do for us as is without having to check some list about final packaging and placement for download of the product. It would also be very confusing for customers. > > > > > > Then DAZ is going to lose some PA's since some have expressed the opinion on the Message boards that they do not want their product encrypted. Which is what is the problem with the way DAZ is going about it, some people just will not tolerate encrypted content on general principle. So the question is, will the customers they lose through encryption be offset by incoming new customers from the warez sites? Survey says... never happened in the past for entertainment software. That's why companies moved away from it. It's not that DRM can't work, it's just that it never generates increased sales. Or does anybody have something that shows that isn't true? > > > > > > The only times I know of that DRM has increased sales is if the software is used by businesses that can be sued if caught using unlicensed versions. > > > > > > You can't increase sales by inconveniencing your customers. > > > > It's not about increasing sales, DRM isn't a incentive to buy, it is for those that want to use it that did not pay for it or do not abide by the licensing agreement of the product. So it may not get people to buy it that would not buy it anyway, but it does attempt to protect more of the casual piracy that goes on and sends a message that this type of sharing isn't condoned where not protecting it in light of piracy sends a totally opposite message. > > > > In the past, there was less of a need for certain things to be protected because of the ecosystem where sites, customers and the producer kept the whole thing honest or had a recourse to remove content that was illegal. If a file was illegally hosted, all the copyright user had to do was to make a request to take it down and the site abided by that, which in term kept the consumer ease of use high. However the system is broken to the point that the copyright holder has no choice but to add more protection to the product because the sites aren't honoring the take down notices, which then inconveniences the consumer. > > Hey, I'm an artist, and I know the pain of somebody ripping off your work, going so far as removing your watermarks, adding theirs, and claiming they created it. But from a business standpoint, the only reason to bother with DRM to start with is the idea that reduced piracy increases sales. That just has never been statistically proven for entertainment digital items in any form. Now if DAZ discovered there is a black market for the SALE of DAZ content, that might be addressable with DRM. Or better yet legal avenues. I personally don't have any problem continuing to buy DRM items from DAZ as long as that DRM does not get in the way of me using the items. I just don't think it is going to do them any good in increasing sales. I'm also not sure it was the wisest idea to publicly admit on their own forum that there were places you could find DAZ content for free. They'd probably have been better off not advertising that. DRM isn't a feature for selling products, as I said. It's a means to protect products from authorized use as the methods that could be use to removed unauthorized content from sites no longer work.

  LPR001 ( posted at 4:42PM Tue, 03 November 2015 

@ssgbryan Look forward to checking out your novel it is always interesting to see the different uses for both Daz and Poser. I find both very good for album covers ssgbryan mentions "But we should move back on topic". As long as it involves Daz the issues affecting you with the update, import-export, The positives noticed by the members that are currently on 4.9 (please post your observations) Negatives do that too, Daz products in Poser etc and theories regarding the future compatability (without bashing either brand or individual ) these are all fine and relevant Just be friendly to each other and if need be challenge a point but at all times show respect towards your fellow members. In other words you are free to venture slightly as this change may have issues outside the Daz Studio environment. Just keep it sweet and all will be fine :-) Thank you I know that Daz has the (Extended) gaming license I wonder with DRM whether an export license will be required even to use in external apps not under the gaming banner. Like animation even Maya etc. Any whispers??? It won't be the first Co' to do this.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Khory_D ( posted at 9:14PM Tue, 03 November 2015 

"Then DAZ is going to lose some PA's since some have expressed the opinion on the Message boards that they do not want their product encrypted." No one holds PA's in chains to keep them working at any brokerage. If they choose to leave then they leave.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  Morpheon ( posted at 10:05PM Tue, 03 November 2015 

> "Then DAZ is going to lose some PA's since some have expressed the opinion on the Message boards that they do not want their product encrypted." Must have missed those when I was still following that thread, or they posted such after I dropped out. The only content creator I was aware of was Zev0, and he was all for it.

  LPR001 ( posted at 2:04AM Wed, 04 November 2015 

[wolf359](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=11346) posted at 6:05PM Wed, 04 November 2015 - [#4236692](#msg4236692) > @LPR001 have you tried the MDD/Obj export options?? > > I am using this methodology to get genesis 1 ,2 figures animated in maxon c4d . > > It's quite a smooth pipeline. Thanks wolf359 I will check it out My process is usually FBX then convert if needed depending where they heading. My Genesis & Genesis 2 M&F the V's G's etc that are compatible with that base all work perfectly for me. Plus with Akeytsu, Mocap and fully packed motion library I must have just about every move a human can make on file. Lot of 30 second loops which take a lot of pain out. Pre Genesis is a different matter V4.2 backwards they get a little ordinary to say the least. DIM or DRM it will take more than either to fix that lol Probably not worth it as not short of Gens and other Non Daz characters. With the merch resources and morphs just make them if no time buy them in. I think it will be a while before I run out of options in the Genesis/2 department

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  leeduva ( posted at 9:00AM Thu, 05 November 2015 

I say this again. My biggest concern isn't daz going DRM. Hell Daz could make a usb dongle that a butt plug. That you must insert into your ass at all time in order to use Daz 4.9 That be no problem to me. I just stick to 4.8. Now what worries me if Daz went to Hivewire,rendoerotica, runtime,and even here an force these stores to use Daz connect on their products. Or Daz simply buy them put em into it ecosystem. Maybe Daz will simply no longer allow non-Connect products to be imported into their software, thus making it impossible to purchase DS content outside of Daz3d. Then I have no choice but to go to Daz 4.9. Then again there Poser and Adobe fuse.

  Zev0 ( posted at 9:20AM Thu, 05 November 2015 · edited on 9:33AM Thu, 05 November 2015

Again. Older content and ones from other sites will be installed the same as it always has been. Only new content sold at Daz via Daz connect will have DRM protection to protect content they sell. Will Daz eventually add DRM for old content they sell? Maybe maybe not. But why would Daz deny other external parties making content for their figures or app? It's free advertising for them, and there is no benefit to denying them the ability to do so, and as far as I know, is not even something Daz is thinking about.

My Renderosity Store

  LPR001 ( posted at 10:57AM Thu, 05 November 2015 

@leeduva How about you try to keep your future comments out of the gutter. I have shown a lot of leniency on this entire thread letting you all blow off a bit of steam, speculate even the odd scrap and considering the circumstances all members have managed things very well. There is no place for comments that can be offensive to other members keep it clean please.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  leeduva ( posted at 5:21PM Thu, 05 November 2015 

[LPR001](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=777635) posted at 5:05PM Thu, 05 November 2015 - [#4237049](#msg4237049) > @leeduva How about you try to keep your future comments out of the gutter. I have shown a lot of leniency on this entire thread letting you all blow off a bit of steam, speculate even the odd scrap and considering the circumstances all members have managed things very well. There is no place for comments that can be offensive to other members keep it clean please. Forgive my comments. An let me rephrase it then. Daz can come out an say in order for me to use Daz 4.9. I have to disclose my Social security,bank account,employment history,and ten people who can vouch for my character. That I won't pirate,harass,or other activities that Daz don't agree with. That fine. I will not complain,nor will I argue them to change their policy. I will simply not upgrade to 4.9. My biggist concern is that Daz will buy,threaten,or pressure. Site like Rend,Hivewire,rundna,renderotica,and other to comply with Daz connect using their EULA. That is my concern. But again There Poser,Makehuman,Adobe/Mixamo fuse. So if Daz in the future goes that route. Then I just use those 3 software that I mention.

  wheatpenny ( posted at 5:46PM Thu, 05 November 2015 

I doubt very seriously that Daz has any intention of forcing other sites to comply with Daz Connect. That would cause them to lose a lot of customers. The people running Daz are not going to make a bad business move that will cost them a lot of customers. The bottom line is the bottom line, and, like all other content providers, they're in it to make a decent profit which they won't do if their customers start leaving. So there's, IMO, nothing to worry about.




Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

“It cannot be that the people should grow in grace unless they give themselves to reading. A reading people will always be a knowing people. ”

― John Wesley

  GeofiX ( posted at 10:43PM Thu, 05 November 2015 

"The people running Daz are not going to make a bad business move that will cost them a lot of customers" REALLY ? You have read the thread at DAZ, most of it is concerned with the DRM aspect of the program. Also it has been repeatedly stated that older content will be will be repackaged to be available through the Connect system. Therefore I can see a time when Connect is the only way to get products into DS thus forcing non-Daz vendors to go that route. leeduva makes an interesting point. I've decided not to upgrade - This means I'll not be buying anything from DAZ. This'll be the only comment I'll make for the time being (I've got other things to occupy me) Have A Nice Day!

  Khory_D ( posted at 11:27PM Thu, 05 November 2015 

[leeduva](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=815165) posted at 11:39PM Thu, 05 November 2015 - [#4237122](#msg4237122) > [LPR001](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=777635) posted at 5:05PM Thu, 05 November 2015 - [#4237049](#msg4237049) > > > @leeduva How about you try to keep your future comments out of the gutter. I have shown a lot of leniency on this entire thread letting you all blow off a bit of steam, speculate even the odd scrap and considering the circumstances all members have managed things very well. There is no place for comments that can be offensive to other members keep it clean please. > > Forgive my comments. An let me rephrase it then. Daz can come out an say in order for me to use Daz 4.9. I have to disclose my Social security,bank account,employment > history,and ten people who can vouch for my character. That I won't pirate,harass,or other activities that Daz don't agree with. That fine. I will not complain,nor will I argue them to change their policy. I will simply not upgrade to 4.9. My biggist concern is that Daz will buy,threaten,or pressure. Site like Rend,Hivewire,rundna,renderotica,and other to comply with Daz connect using their EULA. That is my concern. But again There Poser,Makehuman,Adobe/Mixamo fuse. So if Daz in the future goes that route. Then I just use those 3 software that I mention. What your talking about is actually impossible. First of all it would make it impossible to actually create any products at all if Studio only used connect downloaded files. When we create we have to use the files we just created and they would not be via connect. Not sure who thought up that rumor but they really did not think it through before they went public with it. It is unlikely that Daz would buy out any of the other brokerages at this point. I don't think there would be any benefit for them finacialy and there are actually benefits to having the other brokerages around. Threaten...You make them sound like the mob which they are not. And just what threat would they use? "You better try harder to prevent piracy or we are going to break your virtual corporate thumbs"? Like that would work. They have no need and no leverage to try and coerce any other brokerage into adding encryption. It is not their job to cut down pirating for the other brokerages anyway. Nor do they want to have everyone download through them no matter where products are sold. They would incur all the server costs and hassles with no monetary gain on their part. And that would be the only way to get those files connected to connect. The EULA for every company is a legal document that protects that companies rights. The idea of using any other companies EULA kind of laughable when you think about it. It is like saying you expect Macy's to tell Sears that they need to use their forms from now on. How stupid would that be? They would all still say Macy's and refer to things that Sears does not have. I have to ask what your intent is with the bit about you having to disclose extra information? Do you anticipate other brokerages to do that in order to track down pirates? It wouldn't really be in any companies best interest to have that information or access to it unless they were a bank or similar. They would then have to safeguard it for one thing. All businesses care about is the information they need to be paid and even try and make sure that the charge company has the cc information rather than that it be on store servers. If your saying they might need that information to turn in pirates that would be unnecessary. Police agencies would be the ones who needed the information and they have ways of finding it out without any store needing to supply it. Just the same way a big box department store does not need that information to turn in a shop lifter.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  Khory_D ( posted at 11:39PM Thu, 05 November 2015 

[GeofiX](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=347967) posted at 12:32AM Fri, 06 November 2015 - [#4237166](#msg4237166) > "The people running Daz are not going to make a bad business move that will cost them a lot of customers" REALLY ? > You have read the thread at DAZ, most of it is concerned with the DRM aspect of the program. > Also it has been repeatedly stated that older content will be will be repackaged to be available through the Connect system. > Therefore I can see a time when Connect is the only way to get products into DS thus forcing non-Daz vendors to go that route. > leeduva makes an interesting point. > I've decided not to upgrade - This means I'll not be buying anything from DAZ. > > This'll be the only comment I'll make for the time being (I've got other things to occupy me) > Have A Nice Day! And it has been repeatedly stated that it will be available for other types of download as well. Studio has to use non encrypted files during the creation process and always will have to in order for there to be any content created. Daz is a brokerage and they need content to stay in business. Nor do they want to prevent people who are not Daz PA's from creating content. There are to many benefits to them when content is created and sold elsewhere.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  JasonGalterio ( posted at 1:47PM Fri, 06 November 2015 

[Zev0](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=631071) posted at 2:46PM Fri, 06 November 2015 - [#4237034](#msg4237034) > Again. Older content and ones from other sites will be installed the same as it always has been. Only new content sold at Daz via Daz connect will have DRM protection to protect content they sell. Will Daz eventually add DRM for old content they sell? Maybe maybe not. But why would Daz deny other external parties making content for their figures or app? It's free advertising for them, and there is no benefit to denying them the ability to do so, and as far as I know, is not even something Daz is thinking about. FYI - It has already been stated by DAZ that all content, new and old, downloaded thru DAZ Connect will be encrypted.

  Khory_D ( posted at 2:25PM Fri, 06 November 2015 

It has also been stated that content will continue to be available through account download and DIM.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  Tony_Stark ( posted at 4:25PM Fri, 06 November 2015 

I started reading about DAZ Studio 4.9 and DAZ Connect yesterday. At first I was really irritated. I don't like someone telling me I can't move my content around. I hate DRM. My biggest gripe was that DAZ had no rhyme or reason when it came to installing their content. But I got awfully tired trying to manually install my content. Now the Search function appears to work for me. I'm ok with the changes.

  chaecuna ( posted at 11:32PM Fri, 06 November 2015 

In DAZ forums even DAZ people are openly admitting that this DRM scheme does not deter pirates and users are sloooowly starting to realize that all this stuff is just a ruse to enforce the use of DazConnect, the first step on the slippery slope (as rightly defined over there) to a cloud-only solution. Mark my words: if this DazConnect thing sticks, the real DRM, a cloud only environment, is just a few years down the road so, fight determinately against it (with the only weapon DAZ people consider, i.e. your wallet) and, in the mean time, find yourself an exit strategy. Needless to remark that DAZ PAs have to follow the party line and harshly disagree ;-).

  Razor42 ( posted at 2:30AM Sat, 07 November 2015 · edited on 2:43AM Sat, 07 November 2015

[chaecuna](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=721469) posted at 7:08PM Sat, 07 November 2015 - [#4237314](#msg4237314) >In DAZ forums even DAZ people are openly admitting that this DRM scheme does not deter pirates and users are sloooowly starting to realize that all this stuff is just a ruse to enforce the use of DazConnect, the first step on the slippery slope (as rightly defined over there) to a cloud-only solution. >Mark my words: if this DazConnect thing sticks, the real DRM, a cloud only environment, is just a few years down the road so, fight determinately against it (with the only weapon DAZ people consider, i.e. your wallet) and, in the mean time, find yourself an exit strategy. > Needless to remark that DAZ PAs have to follow the party line and harshly disagree ;-). Says who? If that's the case I didn't get the memo. As far as the rest of the comment goes maybe your coming at it from the school of [Chicken Little](http://www.worldstory.net/en/stories/chicken_little.html)? Just to humour you for a minute what advantage would there be for Daz in moving to a cloud solution only? Wouldn't the very idea of how much content is available make it totally unworkable for the majority of users not to mention a nightmare to deliver? Also I'm not sure where the "ruse" is here? Which part of what Daz has said that makes you feel like you have been tricked or misled? It always amazes me the amount of conspiracy theories abound that make absolutely zero business sense. On that note I found this vital information resource for you :confounded:....232..23.,,; It seems that the mind control implant that Daz implanted in me is finally starting to breaaaakakkkdddow. br.., br ..:,: I can finally tell all about the evil plaaannsdsa,,.:,.,,.,. What you are saying Chae is %100 riiggggn ....sfsdf, * :astonished: • Hmm that was strange, what was I saying that's right, Daz3D are just so Awesome! Lol Do you have anything new Chae? Or just trying to stoke the coals of this thread?


  Zev0 ( posted at 4:45AM Sat, 07 November 2015 · edited on 4:56AM Sat, 07 November 2015

[chaecuna](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=721469) posted at 12:38PM Sat, 07 November 2015 - [#4237314](#msg4237314) > In DAZ forums even DAZ people are openly admitting that this DRM scheme does not deter pirates and users are sloooowly starting to realize that all this stuff is just a ruse to enforce the use of DazConnect, the first step on the slippery slope (as rightly defined over there) to a cloud-only solution. > > Mark my words: if this DazConnect thing sticks, the real DRM, a cloud only environment, is just a few years down the road so, fight determinately against it (with the only weapon DAZ people consider, i.e. your wallet) and, in the mean time, find yourself an exit strategy. > > Needless to remark that DAZ PAs have to follow the party line and harshly disagree ;-). Ummm actually, behind closed doors at the round table, (a place where PA's chat) there are quite a few who are against DRM simply because they do not understand what it is about. A few of us actually went to Daz HQ to attend the briefing, and those that did, understand that there is no impact at all really in how you use content, and that this general fear of DRM is based on passed crappy implemented DRM experiences from other companies, which is just being projected onto Daz when nobody has even seen what the Daz one is actually about. But it's natural to fear what you do not understand. I say wait till you get your first DRM product, and then decide from there if you want to leave.

My Renderosity Store

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 6:03AM Sat, 07 November 2015 

[Khory_D](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=393006) posted at 7:02AM Sat, 07 November 2015 - [#4237169](#msg4237169) > [GeofiX](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=347967) posted at 12:32AM Fri, 06 November 2015 - [#4237166](#msg4237166) > > > "The people running Daz are not going to make a bad business move that will cost them a lot of customers" REALLY ? > > You have read the thread at DAZ, most of it is concerned with the DRM aspect of the program. > > Also it has been repeatedly stated that older content will be will be repackaged to be available through the Connect system. > > Therefore I can see a time when Connect is the only way to get products into DS thus forcing non-Daz vendors to go that route. > > leeduva makes an interesting point. > > I've decided not to upgrade - This means I'll not be buying anything from DAZ. > > > > This'll be the only comment I'll make for the time being (I've got other things to occupy me) > > Have A Nice Day! > > And it has been repeatedly stated that it will be available for other types of download as well. Studio has to use non encrypted files during the creation process and always will have to in order for there to be any content created. Daz is a brokerage and they need content to stay in business. Nor do they want to prevent people who are not Daz PA's from creating content. There are to many benefits to them when content is created and sold elsewhere. Also consider the freebie maker community as well. Not everyone wants to sell, so it wouldn't make sense to eliminate this community from making content.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 6:15AM Sat, 07 November 2015 · edited on 6:20AM Sat, 07 November 2015

[Zev0](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=631071) posted at 7:07AM Sat, 07 November 2015 - [#4237324](#msg4237324) > [chaecuna](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=721469) posted at 12:38PM Sat, 07 November 2015 - [#4237314](#msg4237314) > > > In DAZ forums even DAZ people are openly admitting that this DRM scheme does not deter pirates and users are sloooowly starting to realize that all this stuff is just a ruse to enforce the use of DazConnect, the first step on the slippery slope (as rightly defined over there) to a cloud-only solution. > > > > Mark my words: if this DazConnect thing sticks, the real DRM, a cloud only environment, is just a few years down the road so, fight determinately against it (with the only weapon DAZ people consider, i.e. your wallet) and, in the mean time, find yourself an exit strategy. > > > > Needless to remark that DAZ PAs have to follow the party line and harshly disagree ;-). > > Ummm actually, behind closed doors at the round table, (a place where PA's chat) there are quite a few who are against DRM simply because they do not understand what it is about. A few of us actually went to Daz HQ to attend the briefing, and those that did, understand that there is no impact at all really in how you use content, and that this general fear of DRM is based on passed crappy implemented DRM experiences from other companies, which is just being projected onto Daz when nobody has even seen what the Daz one is actually about. But it's natural to fear what you do not understand. I say wait till you get your first DRM product, and then decide from there if you want to leave. DRM is a small part of what DAZ Connect is, so it would pay to wait and keep the fear mongering to a minimum and understand the other parts of what DAZ Connect is. Also Cloud only content? Considering some products can be 1gb or more, I would think that would be an unworkable solution for people with limited internet connections or bandwidth restrictions. I know I would get notes and charges from my ISP if I kept downloading a 1gb item (which would take about 20 or more minutes each to even download) to use in multiple scenes. It would be like "Let me get multiple gigs of content from the cloud for just this one scene. Let me do this before I go to bed and it should be done by the time I wake up. Oh, I forgot this item; let me run to the store while it downloads." It would pay to actually think through what you are suggesting before posting as wild speculations like this can be easily shot down.

  wheatpenny ( posted at 6:42AM Sat, 07 November 2015 

Last night I downloaded the Beta and gave Daz Connect a try, and so far it appears it's not nearly as bad as people are making it out to be.




Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

“It cannot be that the people should grow in grace unless they give themselves to reading. A reading people will always be a knowing people. ”

― John Wesley

  wheatpenny ( posted at 7:00AM Sat, 07 November 2015 

And it should also be mentioned that it appears that once you download an item, it stays downloaded and installed, so if you have a 1 GB item you only need to download it once.




Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

“It cannot be that the people should grow in grace unless they give themselves to reading. A reading people will always be a knowing people. ”

― John Wesley

  Razor42 ( posted at 7:42AM Sat, 07 November 2015 

As wheatpenny pointed out, the incremental product updates are going to be great for me being on limited data. Apologee's if i appeared to trivalise your concerns chae, but really speculating in such ways just appears to be stirring the pot for the sake of it. If you have serious questions about Daz Connect there are plenty here willing to help you out with answers.


  LPR001 ( posted at 10:23AM Sat, 07 November 2015 

@chaecuna don't forget only one thread over you were saying us "mommy-knows-best moderators" should be shooting down this sort of behaviour.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  pendraia ( posted at 2:40PM Sat, 07 November 2015 

Interesting discussion. I've seen many comments about how long it would take for pirates to rebuild content. I do have a question though. Given that you can export as a cr2 then open it in ds and use the transfer utility to copy weightmapping and morphs across. How long would it take to crack the encryption for rigged characters? I use this method to import morphs that have been created for poser to Dawn. It generally takes me less than an hour to do. Another concern I have is that I like to move things around in the parameter tabs so it is easier to find morphs. Will I still be able to do this in a notepad type editor?

  JasonGalterio ( posted at 3:55PM Sat, 07 November 2015 

Here is one thing I don't like about the situation, that no one has touched on. In past experience the implementation of simple, small updates have led to a downturn in quality. It turns into meeting a time line release before insuring that all the kinks are worked out. I.e. it is easy to fall into the trap of "let's see what happens, we can always fix it quick." I am not saying that this will happen, just that it is human nature to follow this direction.

  chaecuna ( posted at 5:44PM Sat, 07 November 2015 

In general, Razor42 post does not warrant anything beyond a mention to the "Everyone Is Now Dumber" clip from Billy Madison (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcjIestFVOc). Unfortunately, inside that post there is a very dangerous deliberate lie. I realized that it is possible that readers of this thread have a naive idea of what a cloud-based is, how it is structured and how it works so, in order dispel that lie (and to provide further nightmare fuel) I will briefly talk about this evil brain vomit called cloud-based application (developing which is incidentally my day job). Interestingly, there are two 3D related cloud-based application that we can examine: Tinkercad by Autodesk (evil? check, anti-customer? check, Autodesk? check) and Clara.io. They are both cloud-based 3D modeling applications; Tinkercad is more CAD-like, Clara.io more similar to standard polygonal modeling applications. Tinkercad is available here (https://www.tinkercad.com/) and Clara.io here (https://clara.io/). I use "available" with comedic purpose, because there is nothing, in those two applications, that is available in the conventional sense. What you do with those applications is to register to their respective web sites and then navigate (with your web browser) to appropriate URL, login and begin work with them. Nothing at all is installed on your computer, the user interface part (HTML and Javascript) is loaded by your broser and executed inside it; everything else (processing, data storage and data itself) resides inside the cloud. Unless you are logged into your account, you can do nothing for the simple reason that there is nothing (either data or executables) on your computer. You can see by yourself how the thing ticks watching two videos, one for Tinkercad (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwjWT-EvKSU) and one for Clara.io (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EF-T0moiGg). Going back to DAZ, the web-based version of Studio was announced years ago and never afterwards did DAZ officially state that the idea had been killed. So, the "distribution of content would be a nighmare" lie, is just that, a lie, since a cloud-based application is all about not distributing either content or execution (and Razor42 is certainly well aware of this). The continued DAZ indifference to those pointing out that the DRM scheme is leaky is a dead giveaway that DAZ sees no need for a strong DRM scheme... in Studio, which can only be rationally explained by a future in which the Studio we know is a tool reserved for content developers and is as embargoed as nowadays are HD tools. For everybody outside the PAs elite, the logical final step is a super-duper Platinum club, with access to DAZ Cloud, with content and rendering capabilities, accessed with the web-based Studio version. Piracy is killed, since DAZ content never physically leave DAZ controlled servers and, as much important, users are completely hostage of DAZ. When DAZ changes PC fee, users can either suck it up and pay or end their subscription, loosing access to everything. Did you notice how many people recently wrote posts to the tune of "I have enough content for 10 years, I can wait"? with a cloud architecture you do not wait. Either you pay or you change hobby. In general, subscription-based software, software-as-service, is the high tech version of a mob racket: pay or else, with the added bonus that the scheme is even legal ;-). Only DAZ vendors (like Razor42), mesmerized with the naive dream of fabulous revenues thanks to the elimination of piracy and the rackeeteering scheme imposed on users can salute this future as advisable; everybody else has to loose from it. I wrote naive dream because when such situation is established/is being established a big market opportunity for a different approach rises and market opportunities are are always filled. Just an example: in the prehistory of computing some compiler vendors tried to make developers pay royalties for the programs they distributed: immediately, other vendors went in the opposite direction (the one which is standard since decades) and those leeches are nothing more an irrelevant footnote in the history of computing.

  Writers_Block ( posted at 6:11PM Sat, 07 November 2015 

[LPR001](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=777635) posted at 12:08AM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4236072](#msg4236072) > @Writers_Block > With Daz or any Biz/Co if you entered a contract to purchase goods between this date and that date and clicked agree you have purchased them under those rules and conditions as with any business transaction you keep your records and a copy of the agreed terms. I have always had a good run with Daz and do rate them highly with their conduct and if I have had an issue which is only a handful in all these years it has always gone in my favour and they have fixed the issue. I am sure Daz are getting the message loud and clear about people's feelings and I seriously doubt they are going to block access to a customer's previous purchases nor was it ever their intention. Besides if they did I would just say "Don't make me jump in my Volkswagen and head down there to sort this out" they will know I am already ticked off and on the warpath. I have spent a lot of money on content there and I fully expect that content to remain in my possession long after this all dies down There customer service has always been spot on, I'm not concerned with that. My main issue is their rampant deletion of posts. It suggests something dishonest, at least to me. [Khory_D](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=393006) posted at 12:08AM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4236069](#msg4236069) > "I am not so sure on the cloud side it is a wait and see." > > Why? Nothing bad has happened with DIM and it is the exact same sort of cloud set up. > > > "I'm not against them protecting their products, I'm against them refusing to answer how we can be sure we won't lose access to it." > > I'm not sure how many more ways they have to say stuff. First, you can always keep using DIM or zips. Second, the only way you lose access is if something goes wrong on your computer. Pretty much the same kind of goes wrong that would nuke the serial number in the program itself. Once you have the content on your computer its there till you remove it. The cloud stores content you have not yet installed or have removed. If you install it it is on your computer. This is basically the same exact set up as DIM that people have been using for several years now. The only big change is ease of use for those of us who want that. Funny how you address everything except what I'm most annoyed at. Deleted posts.

  Razor42 ( posted at 6:22PM Sat, 07 November 2015 · edited on 6:31PM Sat, 07 November 2015

>So, the "distribution of content would be a nighmare" lie, is just that, a lie, since a cloud-based application is all about not distributing either content or execution (and Razor42 is certainly well aware of this). It's still content distribution whether it is installed on your hard drive or lives in a cloud somewhere for your use. And pointing out two apps that are of a totally different type is kind of irrelevant to the conversation. Daz Studio is not a 3d modelling app which can work cloud based much more easily, it's a content platform which is much harder to implement as cloud based successfully. Spotify is cloud based, It doesn't mean there is any advantage to Apple turning to a full cloud based solution for itunes. If Daz Connect did evolve as you speculate into a cloud base solution, I would unfortunately not be able to use the platform at that point, as I live in the country and for me to download 2-3 gigs for a scene would take somewhere between 3-4 hrs and consume a large chunk of my monthly data allowance. So Daz3D's grand plan is to make their program unusable for a good percentage of their customers and PA's. You really haven't thought this through have you? You're implying that DAZ3D are willing to put piracy protection over user experience to the degree it would make the app unusable and there business vulnerable. That's just irrational nonsense. So any actual data to back your story up or we just need to rely on your gut instinct for this future of Overlord Daz who is going to spoil everybodies fun? No DRM is 100% ironclad, No company ever has expected there DRM to be 100% ironclad forever, Do companies use DRM still to protect their content. Yes! Frankly, I find most of your last post to be full of rambling and disinformation and quite insulting really insinuating that I am dumb, naive and a Liar seems like you are just trying to fire me up. But honestly I have work to do today :) If you have anything more solid than your gut instinct or internal doom and gloom radar. Let me know. Have a look here: [Disinformation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation), ring any bells?


  LPR001 ( posted at 6:57PM Sat, 07 November 2015 

@Writers_Block you will get no argument from me over the deletion of posts although I don't know what they contain if they are in breach of the Daz TOS then that is appropriate there are some posts on here that perhaps should have gone that way but I am giving some room to vent in a civil manner. If they are removing the posts because the questions are not to their liking then I would think that is not the best option and only serves to increase speculation.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Writers_Block ( posted at 7:22PM Sat, 07 November 2015 

[Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 1:18AM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4236723](#msg4236723) > [diogenese19348](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=679633) posted at 1:38PM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236699](#msg4236699) > > > [Khory_D](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=393006) posted at 11:53AM Tue, 03 November 2015 - [#4236609](#msg4236609) > > > > > _Since what DAZ is really doing is protecting the PA's, I would have to guess that some PA's will opt for DRM and some will not. _ > > > > > > I don't see that as a viable option. QA has more than enough to do for us as is without having to check some list about final packaging and placement for download of the product. It would also be very confusing for customers. > > > > Then DAZ is going to lose some PA's since some have expressed the opinion on the Message boards that they do not want their product encrypted. Which is what is the problem with the way DAZ is going about it, some people just will not tolerate encrypted content on general principle. So the question is, will the customers they lose through encryption be offset by incoming new customers from the warez sites? Survey says... never happened in the past for entertainment software. That's why companies moved away from it. It's not that DRM can't work, it's just that it never generates increased sales. Or does anybody have something that shows that isn't true? > > > > The only times I know of that DRM has increased sales is if the software is used by businesses that can be sued if caught using unlicensed versions. > > > > You can't increase sales by inconveniencing your customers. > > It's not about increasing sales, DRM isn't a incentive to buy, it is for those that want to use it that did not pay for it or do not abide by the licensing agreement of the product. So it may not get people to buy it that would not buy it anyway, but it does attempt to protect more of the casual piracy that goes on and sends a message that this type of sharing isn't condoned where not protecting it in light of piracy sends a totally opposite message. > > In the past, there was less of a need for certain things to be protected because of the ecosystem where sites, customers and the producer kept the whole thing honest or had a recourse to remove content that was illegal. If a file was illegally hosted, all the copyright user had to do was to make a request to take it down and the site abided by that, which in term kept the consumer ease of use high. However the system is broken to the point that the copyright holder has no choice but to add more protection to the product because the sites aren't honoring the take down notices, which then inconveniences the consumer. This is the problem. People come to me and ask me to help them; they tell me what is happening and ask me to fix it. I start by asking questions. They tell me the problem, and in a round-about way so they don't feel insulted, I tell them what they are experiencing is a symptom; that symptom is causing them a problem - which is not the same thing. So Daz is trying to fix a symptom, not tackle the problem. Look at how to make sure take down notices are honoured.

  Writers_Block ( posted at 7:29PM Sat, 07 November 2015 

[Khory_D](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=393006) posted at 1:29AM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237252](#msg4237252) > It has also been stated that content will continue to be available through account download and DIM. Yes the only thing greater than contradictions have been the post removals.

  Writers_Block ( posted at 7:40PM Sat, 07 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 1:38AM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237410](#msg4237410) > >So, the "distribution of content would be a nighmare" lie, is just that, a lie, since a cloud-based application is all about not distributing either content or execution (and Razor42 is certainly well aware of this). > > It's still content distribution whether it is installed on your hard drive or lives in a cloud somewhere for your use. And pointing out two apps that are of a totally different type is kind of irrelevant to the conversation. Daz Studio is not a 3d modelling app which can work cloud based much more easily, it's a content platform which is much harder to implement as cloud based successfully. Spotify is cloud based, It doesn't mean there is any advantage to Apple turning to a full cloud based solution for itunes. If Daz Connect did evolve as you speculate into a cloud base solution, I would unfortunately not be able to use the platform at that point, as I live in the country and for me to download 2-3 gigs for a scene would take somewhere between 3-4 hrs and consume a large chunk of my monthly data allowance. So Daz3D's grand plan is to make their program unusable for a good percentage of their customers and PA's. You really haven't thought this through have you? > > You're implying that DAZ3D are willing to put piracy protection over user experience to the degree it would make the app unusable and there business vulnerable. That's just irrational nonsense. So any actual data to back your story up or we just need to rely on your gut instinct for this future of Overlord Daz who is going to spoil everybodies fun? No DRM is 100% ironclad, No company ever has expected there DRM to be 100% ironclad forever, Do companies use DRM still to protect their content. Yes! > > Frankly, I find most of your last post to be full of rambling and disinformation and quite insulting really insinuating that I am dumb, naive and a Liar seems like you are just trying to fire me up. But honestly I have work to do today :) If you have anything more solid than your gut instinct or internal doom and gloom radar. Let me know. > > Have a look here: [Disinformation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation), ring any bells? It is very easy to implement. Customers can use what products their subscription gives them access to. Those products can be placed in a scene, and when they have them arranged as they want - they hit render. Please authorise this payment to download the finished render to your computer... oh sorry, we forgot to mention that.

  Writers_Block ( posted at 7:45PM Sat, 07 November 2015 · edited on 7:51PM Sat, 07 November 2015

[LPR001](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=777635) posted at 1:41AM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237415](#msg4237415) > @Writers_Block you will get no argument from me over the deletion of posts although I don't know what they contain if they are in breach of the Daz TOS then that is appropriate there are some posts on here that perhaps should have gone that way but I am giving some room to vent in a civil manner. If they are removing the posts because the questions are not to their liking then I would think that is not the best option and only serves to increase speculation. It is possible that some have breached. This is what I suggest might have been done if they genuinely had nothing to hide: "There have been some posts that have breached our TOS, however, in the interest of honesty and to calm the obvious fears of our customers, we have taken the unusual step of relaxing those terms in this thread only. We will still, however, consider each and every post which has breached tos carefully. Those that are removed from this thread, we will email you as usual, but we will enclose the text and point out the specifics we are objecting to, thus allowing you to amend it. Thank you for your understanding." I made a post, suggesting that the reason for the DRM was weak, and wondered if it was there as a smoke screen; it vanished, naturally. The thing is, leaving it there would have done more to negate my post than deleting it did. Of course, not many saw it, it was not up more than a couple of hours. But, I've given up using words, I'm trying dollars now. Worst case scenario is I have some cash to spend on something else. :grinning:

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:51PM Sat, 07 November 2015 · edited on 8:58PM Sat, 07 November 2015

[Writers_Block](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=802810) posted at 1:35PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237421](#msg4237421) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 1:38AM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237410](#msg4237410) > > > >So, the "distribution of content would be a nighmare" lie, is just that, a lie, since a cloud-based application is all about not distributing either content or execution (and Razor42 is certainly well aware of this). > > > > It's still content distribution whether it is installed on your hard drive or lives in a cloud somewhere for your use. And pointing out two apps that are of a totally different type is kind of irrelevant to the conversation. Daz Studio is not a 3d modelling app which can work cloud based much more easily, it's a content platform which is much harder to implement as cloud based successfully. Spotify is cloud based, It doesn't mean there is any advantage to Apple turning to a full cloud based solution for itunes. If Daz Connect did evolve as you speculate into a cloud base solution, I would unfortunately not be able to use the platform at that point, as I live in the country and for me to download 2-3 gigs for a scene would take somewhere between 3-4 hrs and consume a large chunk of my monthly data allowance. So Daz3D's grand plan is to make their program unusable for a good percentage of their customers and PA's. You really haven't thought this through have you? > > > > You're implying that DAZ3D are willing to put piracy protection over user experience to the degree it would make the app unusable and there business vulnerable. That's just irrational nonsense. So any actual data to back your story up or we just need to rely on your gut instinct for this future of Overlord Daz who is going to spoil everybodies fun? No DRM is 100% ironclad, No company ever has expected there DRM to be 100% ironclad forever, Do companies use DRM still to protect their content. Yes! > > > > Frankly, I find most of your last post to be full of rambling and disinformation and quite insulting really insinuating that I am dumb, naive and a Liar seems like you are just trying to fire me up. But honestly I have work to do today :) If you have anything more solid than your gut instinct or internal doom and gloom radar. Let me know. > > > > Have a look here: [Disinformation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation), ring any bells? > > It is very easy to implement. Customers can use what products their subscription gives them access to. Those products can be placed in a scene, and when they have them arranged as they want - they hit render. > Please authorise this payment to download the finished render to your computer... oh sorry, we forgot to mention that. Can it be done, Sure. Though what would be the advantages to Daz3D in doing so over the current system. Do you think it would make more customers come on board or lose custom in the long term. You're basically saying that you need to download every product to a scene without actually purchasing it. Wouldn't that just add more risk? Technically you could download to a scene, isolate and pirate without even needing to purchase the product? How would that be more secure? Also adding more data overhead to every customer and Daz3D whether paying or not. The system being described would create extremely difficult scenarios for how a vendor driven marketplace intrinsically works. Explain to me how you would see vendor payments work under the described scenario. Please explain how this system would attract more vendors? Could Microsoft send malicious malware to every PC that has windows, yes. The question is why would they? Unless they want to destroy their business. Try to focus on the why they would do this rather than just the "if they could". Those answers don't make much sense in context. As far as post deletions, go check the link about disinformation I posted. Relaxing of TOS to allow posts that disseminate disinformation or maybe just misinformation would be counter intuitive to say the least to a businesses long term interests. No?


  LPR001 ( posted at 9:59PM Sat, 07 November 2015 

@Writers_Block Maybe they are trying to handle things the best way they can and they might not be used to quite a large onslaught. Are they given set things to say and nothing more that forces them into a corner with limited options. If you look at how I have handled this thread it could be said I could do with one of the Daz guys over here to help out for a while. But we are all adults and if it stays the course I have no reason to remove comments although some are little dodgy. Members appear to have sorted it. I have my own personal opinion as Johnny G that I put forward as a member free to be challenged by anybody who wishes to do so. If need be I will address an issue as moderator, the less I need to do this the better IMO, We are nearly out to chapter 10 of this sorry saga. Battered and bruised but at least everybody has had the opportunity to get it out their system, and that can only be a good thing..... It's better than bottling it up as they say. Have a great weekend

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  LPR001 ( posted at 10:04PM Sat, 07 November 2015 

Now we are speculating about the speculation I think I am going to need a coffee for this.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Razor42 ( posted at 10:35PM Sat, 07 November 2015 

[LPR001](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=777635) posted at 3:22PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237439](#msg4237439) > Now we are speculating about the speculation I think I am going to need a coffee for this. That's the name of the game in this thread isn't it? I would guess that most people expressing strong opinions of DS 4.9 here, haven't actually downloaded DS 4.9. It's been for the most part pure speculation over potential negative future direction (however unlikely), worst case scenario's and viewpoints of generalised DRM as a whole (Not Daz Encryption specific). With very little actual experience driven feedback. But as you pointed out vents are important too.


  LPR001 ( posted at 11:07PM Sat, 07 November 2015 

@Razor42 Yes going over and reading a bunch of mumbo jumbo on another forum and dragging it back is hardly going to give the software itself a fair hearing. Nor does it constitute fact in any way shape or form. I have 4.9 and it is silky smooth and understand DRM. Are you familiar with the show Days of our Lives?. I have to sit through that for 3-5 mins each night before news and I can tell ya remarkable similarities a lot of crying going on but I can never work out why. Unfortunately some people who are not right up on the tech side of things and just want to dabble, enjoy and cut a few renders can be easily mislead into believing all the horror stories and the sky is falling in.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  pendraia ( posted at 11:27PM Sat, 07 November 2015 

[Razor42]> It's been for the most part pure speculation over potential negative future direction (however unlikely), worst case scenario's and viewpoints of generalised DRM as a whole (Not Daz Encryption specific). With very little actual experience driven feedback. Many, myself included, don't do betas. So the only way we can get answers to our questions is to ask. When the answers aren't clear it fuels speculation..

  Razor42 ( posted at 12:38AM Sun, 08 November 2015 · edited on 12:51AM Sun, 08 November 2015

[pendraia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=337975) posted at 4:50PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237448](#msg4237448) > [Razor42]> It's been for the most part pure speculation over potential negative future direction (however unlikely), worst case scenario's and viewpoints of generalised DRM as a whole (Not Daz Encryption specific). With very little actual experience driven feedback. > > Many, myself included, don't do betas. So the only way we can get answers to our questions is to ask. When the answers aren't clear it fuels speculation.. That's mostly true and I do believe that is what is fuelling a lot of the speculation about in this case. But it is a fact that we live in a world full of uncertainties. And in a lot of cases it's hard to provide an absolute answer. It really comes down to likelihoods and risk assessment in most case examples. Which most will need to assess on their own. Ask yourself: Will it rain tomorrow? Will a meteor hit the planet? Will I win the lottery? Will my plane crash? Do I have an undiagnosed heart defect? All of these have a risk factor or likelihood associated. All of them are potentially possible. We each make millions of decisions each day that have an inherent risk association in even something so simple as crossing a road. If you stood on the side of the road and calculated the amount of risk in doing so it's likely you would never actually cross as so many things could go wrong from a drunk driver running the light, a malfunctioning traffic light or even as simple as a footwear malfunction. Yet most people still cross the road relatively stress free and live to tell the tale. Some cases, I am seeing are like saying "Can you guarantee that I will always cross the road safely?" and there is only one actual answer possible "No I cannot guarantee you will" most people accept that as a known risk and act to mitigate and move on. Others may see that as an indication that it is in fact unsafe to cross the road and highly likely to lead to misadventure and refuse to do so from that point. Yet if someone said to me "Are you crazy? You could die crossing that road." I would in turn do my own risk assessment and if I found that the risk was low and there was no actual foundation for being afraid to cross that road on that occasion. I would cross the road and probably think that the person was a little irrational. If the next day I seen them wearing a placard and handing out flyers saying crossing the road is the biggest threat to mankind I would definitely think it's time for the white jackets to do a pickup. In the case of crossing the road we all know the hazard that creates the risk and we are taught from an early age the ways of mitigating that risk. Look both ways etc etc. Most in turn see the risk as very low, yet people do die most days doing just that. And while it may seem like I'm just rambling, which wouldn't be unusual, my point is there are some about that are actually inflating the risk to levels where it comes across as unreasonable speculation bordering on disinformation. Almost to the point it's like saying "Did you know you can get AIDS from using Windows computers? I seen a report the other day about the dangers of computer viruses and a large percentage are known to be infected, so if I was you I wouldn't take any chances with those computers especially with Windows." how do you answer a statement like that? Questions are always welcome and most here will do their best to provide answers or at least opinions. And to answer my own questions: Will it rain tomorrow? Maybe. Will a meteor hit the planet? Possibly. Will I win the lottery? Possible but unlikely. Will my plane crash? Also possible but unlikely. Do I have an undiagnosed heart defect? I'll ask my doctor and get his opinion.


  pendraia ( posted at 12:58AM Sun, 08 November 2015 · edited on 1:00AM Sun, 08 November 2015

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 5:42PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237454](#msg4237454) > [pendraia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=337975) posted at 4:50PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237448](#msg4237448) > > > [Razor42]> It's been for the most part pure speculation over potential negative future direction (however unlikely), worst case scenario's and viewpoints of generalised DRM as a whole (Not Daz Encryption specific). With very little actual experience driven feedback. > > > > Many, myself included, don't do betas. So the only way we can get answers to our questions is to ask. When the answers aren't clear it fuels speculation.. > > That's mostly true and I do believe that is what is fuelling a lot of the speculation about in this case. > > But it is a fact that we live in a world full of uncertainties. And in a lot of cases it's hard to provide an absolute answer. It really comes down to likelihoods and risk assessment in most case examples. Which most will need to assess on their own. > > Ask yourself: > Will it rain tomorrow? Will a meteor hit the planet? Will I win the lottery? Will my plane crash? Do I have an undiagnosed heart defect? > > All of these have a risk factor or likelihood associated. All of them are potentially possible. We each make millions of decisions each day that have an inherent risk association in even something so simple as crossing a road. If you stood on the side of the road and calculated the amount of risk in doing so it's likely you would ever actually cross as so many things could go wrong from a drunk driver running the light, a malfunctioning traffic light right or even as simple as a footwear malfunction. Yet most people still cross the road relatively stress free and live to tell the tale. > > Some cases, I am seeing are like saying "Can you guarantee that I will always cross the road safely?" and there is only one actual answer possible "No I cannot guarantee you will" most people accept that as a known risk and act to mitigate and move on. Others may see that as an indication that is in fact unsafe to cross the road and highly likely to lead to misadventure and refuse to do so from that point. Yet if someone said to me "Are you crazy? You could die crossing that road." I would in turn do my own risk assessment and if I found that the risk was low and there was no actual foundation for being afraid to cross that road on that ocassion. I would cross the road and probably think that the person was a little irrational. If the next day I seen them wearing a placard and handing out flyers saying crossing the road is the biggest threat to mankind I would definitely think it's time for the white jackets to do a pickup. In the case of crossing the road we all know the hazard that creates the risk and we are taught from an early age the ways of mitigating that risk. Look both ways etc etc. Most in turn see the risk as very low, yet people do die most days doing just that. > > And while it may seem like I'm just rambling, which wouldn't be unusual, my point is there are some about that are actually inflating the risk to levels where it comes across as unreasonable speculation bordering on disinformation. Almost to the point it's like saying "Did you know you can get AIDS from using windows computers? I seen a report the other day about the danger of computer viruses and a large percent are infected, so if I was you I wouldn't take any chances." how do you answer a statement like that? > > Questions are always welcome and most here will do their best to provide answers or at least opinions. > > And to answer my own questions: > Will it rain tomorrow? Maybe. > Will a meteor hit the planet? Possibly. > Will I win the lottery? Possible but unlikely. > Will my plane crash? Also possible but unlikely. > Do I have an undiagnosed heart defect? I'll ask my doctor and get his opinion. lol...some even say I'll wait and see if there are any cars coming, check and then cross. Which is my stance at the moment. I'm unsure how this will pan out so I'll take my time before trying and see what feedback others who are more willing to take risks have to say. In regards to lottery winning both my sister-in-laws have won large lottery wins so definitely possible. ; ) From reading this thread I'd say you're right there are lots of opinions stated without having all the facts but sometimes we have to develop opinions without having the facts as you stated above. I think the thing to remember is that more than one opinion can be valid when viewed from the perspective of the person holding that opinion. Vendors like yourself would have a very different viewpoint of Daz than someone who is a hobbyist. Doesn't make either viewpoint wrong just from different perspectives. There was even a subject on this when I did my teaching course called multiliteracies. I would imagine that understanding a customers perspective would help a vendor to improve how they market their products but not being a vendor myself that's only an opinion and could be proved wrong. I do know though that I feel for vendors who have to deal with piracy of their products as I understand that for many the income is what supports them and their families. I do have doubts though about the effectiveness of the measures that Daz is thinking about using. Also as a teacher I'm very passionate that we can all learn and to see Daz Connect promoted because Daz are saying that users can't find content strikes me as being the wrong thing to do on many levels. We were all new to this at one point and we all had to learn how to install and find content. I worry that Daz Connects long term impact will be to lower the skill level of the community. As you can see I have a number of concerns ranging from my own use e.g. Can I edit files in Notepad ++ to the whole pedagogy behind the move. edited to fix grammar...sorry brain dead after writing reports all day.

  LPR001 ( posted at 1:43AM Sun, 08 November 2015 

@Razor Kid just got hit by a car and someone just took a shot at another plane so you might want to up the risk factor a few levels on those two. But very well said anyways

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Razor42 ( posted at 2:20AM Sun, 08 November 2015 · edited on 2:32AM Sun, 08 November 2015

Of course the value of debate is never to be underestimated even when there is no clear winner or a right or wrong side. Sometimes discussion can bring out new perspectives or possibilities that were not obvious before some detailed pro's and cons were put forward from both sides of the equation. And I would never be one to discourage active debate or the expression of opposing viewpoint to my own. And you're definitely right, It's a valuable exercise for a vendor to see through the eyes of their customers and there definitely is a lot to be learned from doing so. One thing on that that I found a bit of a strange paradox as a vendor. Is when working on a product it's easy to get into a mode of thinking that I will make something that the customers will want and in turn will sell well, so after lots of research and market assessment a project is started. After a lot work when launched it flops hard. The paradox is that it's often not what you anticipate or research tells you will sell well. Usually if a vendor instead creates something that they want and enjoy themselves the passion will shine through and customers will also see that in the product. So in turn most successful PA are not just sellers they are also Daz Studio users and also customers in their own right. Actually having a similar eye to issues as customers, more so than many seem to think. And at the end of the day what both parties want is very similar "a strong platform for our passion," One thing to note with Piracy and how vendors think about it is that it's not sheerly a monetary thing. A lot of the frustration is in seeing something that you worked so hard on stolen so easily and distributed with lack of regard to the your wishes. A little like seeing a bit of artwork of yours being used on an outrightly racist website. What do you lose from that monetary wise, would it concern you if that happened to you? How would you feel if you contacted the website and asked them to remove it, as it was being used without your consent, and you were just ignored and laughed at and to rub salt into the wound you were told by others "well you just need to accept it". So it's not only a monetary issue. And it's also not a win or lose scenario with piracy. It's about taking reasonable steps to provide a reasonable level of protection even if some see it as only a speed bump ,it will still impact casual piracy of Daz connect products. Daz script files have been encrypted for a long time? Did it ever impact your usage of them that you noticed? Have you heard anyone complain about it? As far as dumbing down the program base I do see a bit of conflict in how people say, I prefer to manage my own database of content in the OS. But you know what they usually complain about the most? "how vendors put things in their products into stupid folder structures." You think this would be giving them what they want right ;) In my opinion it's not a case of dumbing down, it's an attempt at easing the entry barriers for new users and providing an inline solution to manage content. Many users have been involved for years and what seems like basic knowledge for them is often a steep learning curve for a new user. These programs have been growing in complexity year after year and when faced with incremental change, it's not a huge thing in itself. But for a new user it has become a steeper and steeper barrier to actually using these programs to do what they're intended to do, create art. Most consumers these days have grown used to apps where you click download then you get an icon and you click that and you're off and running. Juggling file structures into a foreign set up of nested folders is beginning to seem antiquated and to many a frustrating opening the door process. WIth my store at Renderosity over 90% off customers that contacted me over the years had one issue. How do I install this? A good content platform developer should recognise this as a significant issue and act to mitigate it. Really at the end of the day, what most people are seeing is their years of building a personal content management system could be becoming redundant, but really is that what this hobby is really about? I can see though the thought of this could be quite daunting and frustrating to many who have been doing if for years with 100's of gigs of content. Though many who do attempt this "New way" of doing things will in time see more benefits than negatives from the process IMO. These are all issues that have also been discussed with Daz3D by the vendors. Any files that you save yourself will be entirely editable in Notepad. Some PA created content may not be in the future. Congrats on your lottery wins too :D Some people seem to have all the luck!


  Khory_D ( posted at 2:37AM Sun, 08 November 2015 

_In past experience the implementation of simple, small updates have led to a downturn in quality. It turns into meeting a time line release before insuring that all the kinks are worked out. I.e. it is easy to fall into the trap of "let's see what happens, we can always fix it quick."_ As they say in the commercial.. that is not how any of this works. First of all before a product is submitted it is finished and has the promos done. You can't rush after, you have to have done all that rushing before it even gets submitted. Nor are products submitted and accepted with a "lets see what happens" attitude. They better see how it works up front in the promos or they won't accept it. Humans can make make mistakes. This will just get those fixed faster since there is less packaging and stuff that has to be done. _Funny how you address everything except what I'm most annoyed at. Deleted posts._ Because I didn't notice it. But I will address it now. The simple fact is people on forums do stupid things. They troll, they say mean things, they cast aspersions at other people, they make direct attacks, and other wise try and pick fights. They use bad words, or use questionable slang, or don't think through what they are saying. They will say things that are not the best choices legally. There are many reasons that posts get pulled. They also get pulled when other people report them for example. Your insinuating that there is something dishonest.. actually no your saying it is dishonest to pull posts. Do the mods delete posts? Yes they do and for all the reasons I listed and more. But there is nothing dishonest in it. Anyone can look at how many dissenting posts there are to tell that they don't pull them just because people disagree, or complain, or even ask the same thing that they know is not true for the half dozenth time. I bet you want to say that they only pull "some" peoples posts. Well I am telling you right now that is not the case. Not unless I am one of those "some" people you were thinking about. I regularly get posts pulled. Yep, sometimes I rise to the bait (obviously) and get carried away. Do I feel singled out or like they are hiding something just because they have protected someone from my wrath? Not so much. I had a post pulled last week because I talked about thieves. Bet you can figure out what I was talking about. And yea I guess it was needlessly inflammatory. That was not the first post I have ever had pulled and I seriously doubt it will be the last. Now looking at what you said here that pulling posts "suggests something dishonest". I suspect that if you said that about another brokerage over there they would indeed pull that post. Why? Because it is edging toward slander. I am also sure that they would pull the posts of any mod or pa who chimed in even slightly on the dishonesty thing because they don't want the company to be placed at risk. Nothing dishonest, just CYA. _ Those products can be placed in a scene, and when they have them arranged as they want - they hit render. Please authorise this payment to download the finished render to your computer..._ Um.. well your making nightmare work for an accounting department that would be larger than the whole company put together right now. And how would it work with the content that people already own? How would that factor into the math? Because that can't change. And how will it navigate user created products and products from other brokerages? How will it break down per use of thousands of individual products by hundreds of individuals and still turn a profit? How many man hours would it take to break every single product down into parts so that they could do the accounting on what got used? How would they convince hundreds of individuals to throw into the plan? How would they ever hope to expand the market the way they currently can with a "free to play" scheme? It would simply ruin all the work they have done to figure out how to bring in new users to the market. When adobe starts charging by the paint brush use we can revisit this because I guess then the accounting tech may be developed enough to even consider it. But until then this is just.. well you know.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  FlagonsWorkshop ( posted at 1:48PM Sun, 08 November 2015 

[Morpheon](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=708406) posted at 1:24PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4236799](#msg4236799) > > "Then DAZ is going to lose some PA's since some have expressed the opinion on the Message boards that they do not want their product encrypted." > > Must have missed those when I was still following that thread, or they posted such after I dropped out. The only content creator I was aware of was Zev0, and he was all for it. There was at least one that I recall that specifically said they would not take part. Zev0 is an interesting case, I buy a lot of his stuff, it's extremely useful. But Zev0 writes mainly scripts, which actually I have no problem with encrypting - I'm never going to need to alter them. And in fact DAZ has used DRM for plugins before - you need installation keys to get them to work. I don't have problems with DRM as long as it doesn't get in the way of me using content I have paid for, and DAZ is bending over backwards to assure us that isn't going to happen - for obvious reasons. My bigger concern, which they are also addressing, is that they not screw up my filing system - smart content has never worked well for me, and until I can be certain a database change on their end is not going to wipe out weeks of custom category work I did I rather manage my content through a folder system. As I said, enough people raised that issue that they are taking another look at the idea of putting everything in the data folder which frankly I think was brain dead to start with. I was at one time an avid music collector. I still listened to a lot of it when they went to CD's. Then MP3's came along, and suddenly the music industry was up in arms, adding all sorts of garbage that got in the way of me playing music I had bought the rights to listen to. The height of that was an MP3 player I bought, and used Rhapsody on (the other services were just as bad at the time). Rhapsody would allow you to download music for a monthly fee, and you had to sync your device once a month. Well half the time when I tried to sync the MP3 player it would corrupt, I'd need to reformat it, and re-download 8 GB of music. Frankly at this point I only listen to, and buy from Indie bands. Movie DRM is every bit as tight, and frankly you never notice it. If you buy a DVD you can play it on any device you own. You can't make copies of it, but you never paid to do so. The only consideration is if the price they charge for the DVD is worth the content on it. That's your decision. If I am paying you for content, the pirates are your problem. Don't ask me to accommodate for what you feel is necessary to battle them. As long as I can use my legally licensed content in the way I am used to, I'm fine with whatever DRM scheme you come up with. As soon as that scheme impacts me, the worth of licensing content from you is diminished. I hope DAZ keeps that in mind. They're going to lose a lot of customers if they don't. With their present set up of providing the program for free, and paying for development with content sales, they can't afford that. Wherever you stand on DRM, those are the facts.

  Writers_Block ( posted at 5:10PM Sun, 08 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:09PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237431](#msg4237431) > [Writers_Block](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=802810) posted at 1:35PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237421](#msg4237421) > > > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 1:38AM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237410](#msg4237410) > > > > > >So, the "distribution of content would be a nighmare" lie, is just that, a lie, since a cloud-based application is all about not distributing either content or execution (and Razor42 is certainly well aware of this). > > > > > > It's still content distribution whether it is installed on your hard drive or lives in a cloud somewhere for your use. And pointing out two apps that are of a totally different type is kind of irrelevant to the conversation. Daz Studio is not a 3d modelling app which can work cloud based much more easily, it's a content platform which is much harder to implement as cloud based successfully. Spotify is cloud based, It doesn't mean there is any advantage to Apple turning to a full cloud based solution for itunes. If Daz Connect did evolve as you speculate into a cloud base solution, I would unfortunately not be able to use the platform at that point, as I live in the country and for me to download 2-3 gigs for a scene would take somewhere between 3-4 hrs and consume a large chunk of my monthly data allowance. So Daz3D's grand plan is to make their program unusable for a good percentage of their customers and PA's. You really haven't thought this through have you? > > > > > > You're implying that DAZ3D are willing to put piracy protection over user experience to the degree it would make the app unusable and there business vulnerable. That's just irrational nonsense. So any actual data to back your story up or we just need to rely on your gut instinct for this future of Overlord Daz who is going to spoil everybodies fun? No DRM is 100% ironclad, No company ever has expected there DRM to be 100% ironclad forever, Do companies use DRM still to protect their content. Yes! > > > > > > Frankly, I find most of your last post to be full of rambling and disinformation and quite insulting really insinuating that I am dumb, naive and a Liar seems like you are just trying to fire me up. But honestly I have work to do today :) If you have anything more solid than your gut instinct or internal doom and gloom radar. Let me know. > > > > > > Have a look here: [Disinformation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation), ring any bells? > > > > It is very easy to implement. Customers can use what products their subscription gives them access to. Those products can be placed in a scene, and when they have them arranged as they want - they hit render. > > Please authorise this payment to download the finished render to your computer... oh sorry, we forgot to mention that. > > Can it be done, Sure. Though what would be the advantages to Daz3D in doing so over the current system. Do you think it would make more customers come on board or lose custom in the long term. You're basically saying that you need to download every product to a scene without actually purchasing it. Wouldn't that just add more risk? Technically you could download to a scene, isolate and pirate without even needing to purchase the product? How would that be more secure? Also adding more data overhead to every customer and Daz3D whether paying or not. The system being described would create extremely difficult scenarios for how a vendor driven marketplace intrinsically works. Explain to me how you would see vendor payments work under the described scenario. Please explain how this system would attract more vendors? > > Could Microsoft send malicious malware to every PC that has windows, yes. The question is why would they? Unless they want to destroy their business. > Try to focus on the why they would do this rather than just the "if they could". Those answers don't make much sense in context. > > As far as post deletions, go check the link about disinformation I posted. Relaxing of TOS to allow posts that disseminate disinformation or maybe just misinformation would be counter intuitive to say the least to a businesses long term interests. No? Actually, what I'm saying is that it would be possble to do without anyone ever downloading content to their computer.

  Writers_Block ( posted at 5:15PM Sun, 08 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:12PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237442](#msg4237442) > [LPR001](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=777635) posted at 3:22PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237439](#msg4237439) > > > Now we are speculating about the speculation I think I am going to need a coffee for this. > > That's the name of the game in this thread isn't it? I would guess that most people expressing strong opinions of DS 4.9 here, haven't actually downloaded DS 4.9. > > It's been for the most part pure speculation over potential negative future direction (however unlikely), worst case scenario's and viewpoints of generalised DRM as a whole (Not Daz Encryption specific). With very little actual experience driven feedback. > > But as you pointed out vents are important too. I have. It works fine without the smart content. The smart content is a pain to redownload, and the system to sort, well don't want to spend weeks sorting it out - that's too much like work. Outside of the smart content/encrypted content, it seems fine with bug fixes and a slight increase in render speed.

  Writers_Block ( posted at 5:20PM Sun, 08 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:18PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237454](#msg4237454) > [pendraia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=337975) posted at 4:50PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237448](#msg4237448) > > > [Razor42]> It's been for the most part pure speculation over potential negative future direction (however unlikely), worst case scenario's and viewpoints of generalised DRM as a whole (Not Daz Encryption specific). With very little actual experience driven feedback. > > > > Many, myself included, don't do betas. So the only way we can get answers to our questions is to ask. When the answers aren't clear it fuels speculation.. > > That's mostly true and I do believe that is what is fuelling a lot of the speculation about in this case. > > But it is a fact that we live in a world full of uncertainties. And in a lot of cases it's hard to provide an absolute answer. It really comes down to likelihoods and risk assessment in most case examples. Which most will need to assess on their own. > > Ask yourself: > Will it rain tomorrow? Will a meteor hit the planet? Will I win the lottery? Will my plane crash? Do I have an undiagnosed heart defect? > > All of these have a risk factor or likelihood associated. All of them are potentially possible. We each make millions of decisions each day that have an inherent risk association in even something so simple as crossing a road. If you stood on the side of the road and calculated the amount of risk in doing so it's likely you would never actually cross as so many things could go wrong from a drunk driver running the light, a malfunctioning traffic light or even as simple as a footwear malfunction. Yet most people still cross the road relatively stress free and live to tell the tale. > > Some cases, I am seeing are like saying "Can you guarantee that I will always cross the road safely?" and there is only one actual answer possible "No I cannot guarantee you will" most people accept that as a known risk and act to mitigate and move on. Others may see that as an indication that it is in fact unsafe to cross the road and highly likely to lead to misadventure and refuse to do so from that point. Yet if someone said to me "Are you crazy? You could die crossing that road." I would in turn do my own risk assessment and if I found that the risk was low and there was no actual foundation for being afraid to cross that road on that occasion. I would cross the road and probably think that the person was a little irrational. If the next day I seen them wearing a placard and handing out flyers saying crossing the road is the biggest threat to mankind I would definitely think it's time for the white jackets to do a pickup. In the case of crossing the road we all know the hazard that creates the risk and we are taught from an early age the ways of mitigating that risk. Look both ways etc etc. Most in turn see the risk as very low, yet people do die most days doing just that. > > And while it may seem like I'm just rambling, which wouldn't be unusual, my point is there are some about that are actually inflating the risk to levels where it comes across as unreasonable speculation bordering on disinformation. Almost to the point it's like saying "Did you know you can get AIDS from using Windows computers? I seen a report the other day about the dangers of computer viruses and a large percentage are known to be infected, so if I was you I wouldn't take any chances with those computers especially with Windows." how do you answer a statement like that? > > Questions are always welcome and most here will do their best to provide answers or at least opinions. > > And to answer my own questions: > Will it rain tomorrow? Maybe. > Will a meteor hit the planet? Possibly. > Will I win the lottery? Possible but unlikely. > Will my plane crash? Also possible but unlikely. > Do I have an undiagnosed heart defect? I'll ask my doctor and get his opinion. I agree there has been a lot of speculation; it has been drastically helped by the number of deleted posts. So you ask you doctor about your heart; he sticks his fingers in his ears (effectively deleting your conversation) and you're left wondering why?

  Razor42 ( posted at 6:00PM Sun, 08 November 2015 · edited on 6:05PM Sun, 08 November 2015

>Actually, what I'm saying is that it would be possible to do without anyone ever downloading content to their computer. Possible - maybe, Likelihood - about as high as getting struck by lightning while gardening in your bunny pajamas IMO >I have. It works fine without the smart content. The smart content is a pain to redownload, and the system to sort, well don't want to spend weeks sorting it out - that's too much like work. Outside of the smart content/encrypted content, it seems fine with bug fixes and a slight increase in render speed. What smart content were you redownloading? Do you mean metadata? Metadata should be a fairly small download if that's the case. It has actually been recommended to wait for the RC before attempting to redownload your entire library as there will be a direct bridge from your installed content to DC. So which questions did you have that were deleted may I ask?


  Khory_D ( posted at 8:23PM Sun, 08 November 2015 

"I agree there has been a lot of speculation; it has been drastically helped by the number of deleted posts. So you ask you doctor about your heart; he sticks his fingers in his ears (effectively deleting your conversation) and you're left wondering why?" You left out the part where the doctor has already told you a dozen times what to do about your heart and you just keep asking the him if you could get heart cancer.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:25PM Sun, 08 November 2015 · edited on 8:26PM Sun, 08 November 2015

[Some good info on the official position of Daz3D on Piracy and Encryption Policies of DS4.9 from Daz_Jon Here. ](http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/65560/encryption-discussions-go-here/p1)


  Khory_D ( posted at 8:26PM Sun, 08 November 2015 

" Do you mean metadata? Metadata should be a fairly small download if that's the case. It has actually been recommended to wait for the RC before attempting to redownload your entire library as there will be a direct bridge from your installed content to DC." I did run the maintenance/re-download the meta data. I had nothing to loose because my old smart content was such a mess I had never used it. It took about 2 minutes total and it was all copacetic for the first time ever.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  Tony_Stark ( posted at 8:39PM Sun, 08 November 2015 

I think DAZ's biggest mistake was when they abandoned the individual installers and went to DIM. They totally bungled the whole thing. DIM never totally caught up with DAZ's change in folder structure. DIM still has zip files that put everything under the Content folder. Then DIM moves most stuff out of the Content folder as it's being installed. Just unzip a few of their install files and you'll see! DAZ failed to adopt any standard naming and placement guidelines. DAZ says you don't need to find something easily. Just use Smart Content or Search! Smart Content is dumb. It doesn't show everything I have. I don't want my content Categorized. I don't want to fool with metadata. I just want to Make Art!

  Razor42 ( posted at 9:10PM Sun, 08 November 2015 · edited on 9:11PM Sun, 08 November 2015

[Tony_Stark](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=690296) posted at 1:56PM Mon, 09 November 2015 - [#4237554](#msg4237554) > I think DAZ's biggest mistake was when they abandoned the individual installers and went to DIM. They totally bungled the whole thing. DIM never totally caught up with DAZ's change in folder structure. DIM still has zip files that put everything under the Content folder. Then DIM moves most stuff out of the Content folder as it's being installed. Just unzip a few of their install files and you'll see! DAZ failed to adopt any standard naming and placement guidelines. DAZ says you don't need to find something easily. Just use Smart Content or Search! Smart Content is dumb. It doesn't show everything I have. > > I don't want my content Categorized. I don't want to fool with metadata. I just want to Make Art! No offense, but I pretty much disagree with your entire statement. DIM has been widely adopted by far the majority of DS users and for many DIM takes a lot of the Database management side out of the equation for them, making it actually a lot easier to focus on making art. Which seems to be what you're asking for in your last statement? So really your issue with DIM is the folder arrangement behind the scenes, that most users would never actually see if they use Smart content to manage their content? But you choose to unzip and place your content manually because you don't like smart content, which causes you to have issue with the folder structure? In effect Daz Connect will make folder naming conventions pretty much irrelevant for Daz3D content. As content management will be handled inline and be more flexible to personal preferences and arrangement, without needing to have the argument about whether that vanity folder is necessary or not. Smart content works alongside of your normal Content Library and makes it easier for most to build a scene without having to remember in what exact folder or the vendor name for that pair of shoes. You could even argue, it's not Smart Content that is dumb it's your old content. Here is a statement I made earlier in the thread: >As far as dumbing down the program base I do see a bit of conflict in how people say, I prefer to manage my own database of content in the OS. But you know what they usually complain about the most? "how vendors put things in their products into stupid folder structures." You think this would be giving them what they want right ;)


  Khory_D ( posted at 9:57PM Sun, 08 November 2015 

[Tony_Stark](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=690296) posted at 10:43PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237554](#msg4237554) > I think DAZ's biggest mistake was when they abandoned the individual installers and went to DIM. They totally bungled the whole thing. DIM never totally caught up with DAZ's change in folder structure. DIM still has zip files that put everything under the Content folder. Then DIM moves most stuff out of the Content folder as it's being installed. Just unzip a few of their install files and you'll see! DAZ failed to adopt any standard naming and placement guidelines. DAZ says you don't need to find something easily. Just use Smart Content or Search! Smart Content is dumb. It doesn't show everything I have. > > I don't want my content Categorized. I don't want to fool with metadata. I just want to Make Art! I have seriously loved DIM. I really don't want to fart around installing stuff if I don't have to and I actually really like where DIM installs my Studio stuff. I will never understand people who put more time into organizing content than using content. Nor will I ever understand the concept of a dozen or more "runtimes" (which of course is not even correct phrasing for studio organization) with everything spread hither and yon. I don't want to run from place to place to load things I want it all right there where I can get it as fast as possible. DIM installs it and there it is for me. Actually I feel the same way about connect which I am using. It installs it and I can work. I like things simple and fast.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  LPR001 ( posted at 10:29PM Sun, 08 November 2015 

If anything the Smart Content has a big improvement in 4.9 I have seen a lot of comments from long time users not so keen on the Smart Content system ever since introduced. I always felt it was good in principle it was just a half effort type arrangement it now appears now to be very effective. A lot of the members comments on this thread and others seem to be more talking about Daz 5.7 then wonder why they are not getting answers. If somebody told me 5 years ago we would not have a car manufacturer left in Australia in the next 10 years I would have said don't be an idiot we have 8 there has to be a clear winner. I think by end of next year we will have none, all gone. Things change deal with it. I only have the one concern with the update and that is where they said you can't move the content. My computer is full of software which can get very heavy and bloated. How I have it set up today will need an adjustment a 3-4 times a year My other DRM encoded software which is most I can still pick up entire folders and move them to a external drive tell the software where it is and it takes it from there. It is not a IP I am moving address nor a name change by deed poll it is DRM encoded content and changing the path on a computer talking to Daz via connect so I am a little confused considering it only has one entry exit point the computer name and details collected by Daz on install. I have a reasonably healthy size hard drive but this week alone I would have downloaded 15-20 gigs from the Daz/UE4 store. I guess as long as I can add a external drive and point it the same from Daz for new installs of content that is workaround. That is the part I am most concerned with. Anybody in 3D animation cutting AVI files will know when you put a 3TB drive in your PC and think that will last forever is back at the store a 3-4 times a year if things are slow. I am concerned about the mega gigs of Daz on my main computer as up until now it was always temporary. I have not had chance to chase it up but it is what I read myself so it wasn't second hand news. Although I read it as from a point onward not what I had already I could be wrong. If I am let me know. I will be the first to admit I am a Daz fan and bias towards the product the software is not my main but it's flexibility makes it kind of a massive plugin. One at this point I could not do without. I challenge anybody to point me in the direction of better content of such quality, theme and variety from the PA's. Both there, here anywhere content is available through proper channels And if you buy right very cost effective. @diogenese19348 As for the music industry some of the Indie music getting around is is equally as good as the commercial so you are not missing out on anything :-) In a lot of cases better because they are trying harder struggled harder usually a band's 1st album is their best. There is a lot more pressing issues in the music industry than the just the DRM. Someone born today could possibly die at 100 and never have paid for a single track and do so legally. It doesn't do much for us labels but it is a fact of life today. Occasionally a few times a year the musicians can afford a hamburger...... If we loan them the money. Daz should throw everything it has at product protection with the least amount of impact on the user as possible. If I am paying my good money so should everybody else. If the PA's spend all their time achieving the content I see they have the right to the protection. I am even willing to take a hit of a second or two load time while online or Daz checking my content in the background while I have the app open to ensure my content is all legit. I have nothing to hide I pay for everything that is on my drive except legit freebies which I appreciate too. I just hope we don't lose the functionality and freedoms we enjoy now but I think every Daz user would want that and I don't think Daz would want to take them away either it is what made the brand. Granted I am commercial so it wouldn't be good business practice knocking stuff off all over the web or in the real world. I can't see me doing things any differently if retired.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 10:41PM Sun, 08 November 2015 · edited on 10:47PM Sun, 08 November 2015

[Khory_D](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=393006) posted at 11:32PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237565](#msg4237565) > [Tony_Stark](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=690296) posted at 10:43PM Sun, 08 November 2015 - [#4237554](#msg4237554) > > > I think DAZ's biggest mistake was when they abandoned the individual installers and went to DIM. They totally bungled the whole thing. DIM never totally caught up with DAZ's change in folder structure. DIM still has zip files that put everything under the Content folder. Then DIM moves most stuff out of the Content folder as it's being installed. Just unzip a few of their install files and you'll see! DAZ failed to adopt any standard naming and placement guidelines. DAZ says you don't need to find something easily. Just use Smart Content or Search! Smart Content is dumb. It doesn't show everything I have. > > > > I don't want my content Categorized. I don't want to fool with metadata. I just want to Make Art! > > I have seriously loved DIM. I really don't want to fart around installing stuff if I don't have to and I actually really like where DIM installs my Studio stuff. I will never understand people who put more time into organizing content than using content. Nor will I ever understand the concept of a dozen or more "runtimes" (which of course is not even correct phrasing for studio organization) with everything spread hither and yon. I don't want to run from place to place to load things I want it all right there where I can get it as fast as possible. DIM installs it and there it is for me. Actually I feel the same way about connect which I am using. It installs it and I can work. I like things simple and fast. Agreed. Anyone that doesn't like DIM simply doesn't buy enough content to see the where it comes to play. Right now I have 5 iray shader products queued up to download and install about 5 gigs worth of data in addition to the 15 other products (and product updates I get notified through DIM) I will drop in that I bought this week. It was an absolute nightmare to download those and go through the multiple clicks to install content (including agreeing to the EULA every single time), much less know which products got updated. Now I can simply set what I want to download in a batch, start it up and go to be and everything will be installed when I get up. Most people do just want to make their art, not get into the intricacies of downloading and setting up content; they just want it to work as soon as they buy it with as little hassle as possible. Even the idea around genesis is set up around the ease of use (no more injections for instance).

  prixat ( posted at 3:02AM Mon, 09 November 2015 

[Writers_Block](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=802810) posted at 8:50AM Mon, 09 November 2015 - [#4237517](#msg4237517) > "Actually, what I'm saying is that it would be possble to do without anyone ever downloading content to their computer." That would be great for me. I'd have DS running on a 100-core Amazon server for 3Delight renders. My Iray preview/renders would be served by nVidia's GPU cloud with millions of CUDA cores. My content library would live on a CDN somewhere. I'd be able to do 10,000 x 10,000 renders on my phone at 30,000ft. Ideal!

regards
prixat

  Razor42 ( posted at 4:24AM Mon, 09 November 2015 

[prixat](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=256683) posted at 9:24PM Mon, 09 November 2015 - [#4237598](#msg4237598) > [Writers_Block](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=802810) posted at 8:50AM Mon, 09 November 2015 - [#4237517](#msg4237517) > > > "Actually, what I'm saying is that it would be possble to do without anyone ever downloading content to their computer." > > > That would be great for me. I'd have DS running on a 100-core Amazon server for 3Delight renders. My Iray preview/renders would be served by nVidia's GPU cloud with millions of CUDA cores. My content library would live on a CDN somewhere. I'd be able to do 10,000 x 10,000 renders on my phone at 30,000ft. Ideal! Somehow it doesn't sound all that bad when you put it like that!


  RHaseltine ( posted at 3:36PM Mon, 09 November 2015 

[Tony_Stark](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=690296) posted at 3:34PM Mon, 09 November 2015 - [#4237554](#msg4237554) > I think DAZ's biggest mistake was when they abandoned the individual installers and went to DIM. They totally bungled the whole thing. DIM never totally caught up with DAZ's change in folder structure. DIM still has zip files that put everything under the Content folder. Then DIM moves most stuff out of the Content folder as it's being installed. Just unzip a few of their install files and you'll see! DAZ failed to adopt any standard naming and placement guidelines. DAZ says you don't need to find something easily. Just use Smart Content or Search! Smart Content is dumb. It doesn't show everything I have. > > I don't want my content Categorized. I don't want to fool with metadata. I just want to Make Art! The Content folder, like the manifest.dsx file, is there for DIM to keep different types of file organised, users manually installing should ignore it and the manifest file.

  Black__Days ( posted at 5:41PM Mon, 09 November 2015 

So, what I want to know is if 4.9 is also going to coincide with Michael 7 / Genesis 3 Male. If so, that leaves me looking very uneasily toward DAZ Studio 5 and the probable introduction of Genesis 4 in a year at most. That's my biggest issue with DAZ, to be honest. I don't mind the DAZ Connect move, and the DIM didn't really bother me either. What bothers me is the pace of the content treadmill. It seem that it's been getting steadily faster, with periods between generations of figures shortening. Maybe I'll just bow out of the whole thing, play with the toys I have, and maybe jump back on the treadmill with generation 8.


In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

  Razor42 ( posted at 6:08PM Mon, 09 November 2015 

[Black__Days](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=494313) posted at 10:57AM Tue, 10 November 2015 - [#4237740](#msg4237740) > So, what I want to know is if 4.9 is also going to coincide with Michael 7 / Genesis 3 Male. If so, that leaves me looking very uneasily toward DAZ Studio 5 and the probable introduction of Genesis 4 in a year at most. > > That's my biggest issue with DAZ, to be honest. I don't mind the DAZ Connect move, and the DIM didn't really bother me either. What bothers me is the pace of the content treadmill. It seem that it's been getting steadily faster, with periods between generations of figures shortening. Maybe I'll just bow out of the whole thing, play with the toys I have, and maybe jump back on the treadmill with generation 8. I tend to find this one is also a bit of a misnomer. Sure the pace of content development seems to be increasing, but that would just offer more content choice wouldn't it. I still use Genesis and Genesis 2 quite a bit and I hear some also like V4 for some reason. Just because newer products arrive doesn't make the old ones redundant or in any way less useful. I know when I buy a computer, that pretty much before I power it on there will likely be a newer faster system available for the same price I paid. But I don't buy a computer to be the fastest forever, I purchase it to do a job and as long as the system can do that job for me for a number of years, I'm happy with it. I have no issue that newer faster models are arriving, in fact I just find it somewhat exciting that when I do choose to upgrade that the development has kept pushing the edge and I'm going to have a new faster and more powerful beast to put to work. A few of the software packs I use are also back a few versions from the latest too. IMO What would be even scarier is to be stuck with the same level of tech or figure base for over ten years, while seeing very little advancement in the tech, wait a sec when was V4 made... ;)


  Zev0 ( posted at 6:42PM Mon, 09 November 2015 · edited on 6:49PM Mon, 09 November 2015

What he said. Nobody is forcing you to use the latest figures. There are even clones so you can use new content on the older figures if you do not want to move over to the new ones just yet, or the other way around.

My Renderosity Store

  Black__Days ( posted at 8:44PM Mon, 09 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 9:08PM Mon, 09 November 2015 - [#4237743](#msg4237743) > I tend to find this one is also a bit of a misnomer. Sure the pace of content development seems to be increasing, but that would just offer more content choice wouldn't it. I am not speaking strictly about content development pace, per se, but more generational iteration and base/main character proliferation. I simply feel it's too fast. That's a personal opinion, and I completely understand why people might disagree. I have felt this way since M2/V2 were replaced by M3/V3/David/Stephanie/Freak. Sure, the Unimesh gave some great advantages, but it really started the ball rolling toward getting less for the money and not getting as much out of the figures we have bought as we could have. Features we once took for granted (like facial expressions!) are now monetized, and what once would have been a character morph and texture set is now instead a new $30 base character. Characters like Gianni 6 and Olympia 6 being their own base, with their own UVs, instead of just some new expansion for M/V6 are a prime example. I understand the business side of it, of course. Potential customers for Gianni 6 would only be a subset of people that already owned Michael 6, instead of everyone with Genesis 2 Male installed maybe buying him. I just miss the days when you bought a figure, and that figure was a whole product, complete with body morphs to change body type, facial morphs to emote or make elf ears, fangs, etc. Now all of that is $10-$20 each. I would like to see a middle ground, where DAZ can make plenty of money and users can get more out of the content they buy. In my opinion, the right path to DAZ making just as much as they are right now would be to slow down generational iteration, stop proliferating base characters with each generation, and instead focus on providing some more imaginative content to support those people. There has never been a surplus of good environments, for instance, and nobody ever had a problem selling pose packs or hair. Make those characters that are right now marketed as equivalents to the flagship people (Olympia, Josie, Julie, Jaden, etc) addons for the flagship people instead, and make more of them. That would **really** be a way to offer more content choice. Just my two cents' worth. Your mileage may vary. > IMO What would be even scarier is to be stuck with the same level of tech or figure base for over ten years, while seeing very little advancement in the tech, wait a sec when was V4 made... ;) Now now. There's no need to turn everything into a dig at Poser's lack of first party content support.


In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

  Writers_Block ( posted at 12:08PM Thu, 12 November 2015 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 6:02PM Thu, 12 November 2015 - [#4237603](#msg4237603) > [prixat](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=256683) posted at 9:24PM Mon, 09 November 2015 - [#4237598](#msg4237598) > > > [Writers_Block](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=802810) posted at 8:50AM Mon, 09 November 2015 - [#4237517](#msg4237517) > > > > > "Actually, what I'm saying is that it would be possble to do without anyone ever downloading content to their computer." > > > > > > That would be great for me. I'd have DS running on a 100-core Amazon server for 3Delight renders. My Iray preview/renders would be served by nVidia's GPU cloud with millions of CUDA cores. My content library would live on a CDN somewhere. I'd be able to do 10,000 x 10,000 renders on my phone at 30,000ft. Ideal! > > Somehow it doesn't sound all that bad when you put it like that! For those that want that, it's ideal; those that want something else, well it isn't. Where Daz goes, we will have to see; what happens to the statements they made, we will have to see; I'm somewhat worried about the direction, but I don't have to go with them , or follow after. So'll I'll wait and continue to save my cash. Or spend some here at Rederosity instead. My only purchases were in the last two weeks have been 3 G2 with large discount. Good for me. :grinning: It feels like there is another shoe though.

  Rawnrr ( posted at 1:10PM Thu, 12 November 2015 

Slowing down figure generation iterations means to not keep up with emerging technology....that is the problem that is killing poser. Daz is smarter than that...they will keep growing new figures that keep up with modern technology, and as such will keep themselves vital

  LaurieA ( posted at 2:09PM Mon, 30 November 2015 · edited on 2:14PM Mon, 30 November 2015

FWIW, I DON'T like my stuff being stored in the cloud IF I can't download it to my own hard drive and use it from said hard drive. It sounds like this is not the case with the new Daz DRM. Sounds like to me the stuff still lives on your hard drive but also stays in the cloud for when and if you need it. DRM I don't mind so long as my use of it is invisible to me while I'm using it. Sounds like this is also the case with Daz DRM. I'll be watching over the next weeks while this all fleshes out, but if everything is how I understand it right now, I don't have a problem with it. How hard will the DRM be on vendors? Will one need to be a "Daz insider" to defeat the DRM in order to make products easier? I make freebies, so it's a question I'd really like an answer to. Will the DRM in any way hamper ones ability to create and distribute morphs and/or other products like clothing generation and so forth? Laurie


  RHaseltine ( posted at 3:33PM Mon, 30 November 2015 

[LaurieA](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=10089) posted at 3:27PM Mon, 30 November 2015 - [#4241631](#msg4241631) > FWIW, I DON'T like my stuff being stored in the cloud IF I can't download it to my own hard drive and use it from said hard drive. It sounds like this is not the case with the new Daz DRM. Sounds like to me the stuff still lives on your hard drive but also stays in the cloud for when and if you need it. DRM I don't mind so long as my use of it is invisible to me while I'm using it. Sounds like this is also the case with Daz DRM. I'll be watching over the next weeks while this all fleshes out, but if everything is how I understand it right now, I don't have a problem with it. > > How hard will the DRM be on vendors? Will one need to be a "Daz insider" to defeat the DRM in order to make products easier? I make freebies, so it's a question I'd really like an answer to. Will the DRM in any way hamper ones ability to create and distribute morphs and/or other products like clothing generation and so forth? > > Laurie The "cloud" element is no more cloudy than DIM -the main difference is that with the new system you get only the changed files with an update, instead of having to download the full product, which is a boon for those of us with capped bandwidth. The new beta isn't encrypting content that is available through DIM (which is all of it, currently) though once there is Connect-only content that will still be encrypted. The new beta has also added the ability to drag from the CMS-based views to a file based view (DAZ Studio Formats) to create a shortcut to the content that you can move around as you wish. The encryption won't generally interfere with content creation - the Transfer Utility still works, you can still bridge or export OBJs for morph-creation and save as (unencrypted) morph assets and so on. I'm not sure, off-hand, that there will be ways in which it might interfere but I'll leave the weaselly "generally" as insurance.

  LaurieA ( posted at 9:57AM Tue, 01 December 2015 · edited on 9:59AM Tue, 01 December 2015

Thanks Richard for your answer :). And yes...downloading only the changes will be really nice. I have a generous monthly bandwidth, but saving it where I can is always nice ;). Laurie


  will2power ( posted at 11:40AM Wed, 02 December 2015 

I've read through more pages than I can count on this, and I have to say this. As a consumer, I believe that my time purchasing DAZ products is slowly coming to an end. I will not participate in DRM related purchases. I've been at odds with DAZ for years because they keep rolling out crap that no one's interested in and ignoring all of the things that we've been asking for as users. To me there were a thousand other things more important than DRM, which is nothing more than pissing in the wind because for all your efforts, there are literally thousands of hackers that are more skilled and less scrupulous. DRM will be cracked within hours and they'll be right back where they started -only the cost of this colossal failure will be passed onto the consumer. It's caused me to rethink a lot of my strategies when it comes to animating and rendering. I wanted the models and for the most part, I have about 99 percent of the models that I need to do the things that I want to do. I have never liked the DUF format as a tech guy because it was so poorly thought out. Rendering in DAZ is certainly easy, now there are other options that are just as easy and offer features that DAZ refuses to implement. I've spent the last few months investigating Modo, Cinema 4D, Iclone, and now Maya LT and I'm convinced that just about the only thing DAZ has to offer is the models themselves. The lack of proper rigging tools, dynamics, particles, and literally abandoning Carrara when they should have been retooling it to take over for DAZ studio entirely have caused me to look elsewhere. With Modo Indie priced at $299 or the full version right at a thousand dollars --800 around this time of year when they do the sale, or Maya LT with Stingray at 30 dollars a month, do I really have to put up with DRM? This weekend I started experimenting with the FBX export to Maya and Motion Builder and I have also started evaulating at MODO with the Automatic Character Rigging setup for converting my favorite DAZ models to a rigging system that is animator friendly. I'm even looking at using Akeytsu with Unreal Engine 4. I don't like cloud based operations and I despise DRM content so Genesis 3 is probably the end of the line for my figure purchasing from DAZ. I can spend more time taking the models I already own and converting them for use elsewhere and get a whole lot of mileage out of systems that give me the tools I've been asking for. I love your models, but I'm not going to jump on the Cloud/DRM bandwagon.

  LaurieA ( posted at 12:32PM Wed, 02 December 2015 

Wow, I only needed to read maybe 4 posts to get the new DRM system and people still think their stuff is all gonna be in the cloud? Reread please. The stuff still downloads to your computer. You got control of your own content on your own hard drive...the only way the cloud enters into it is keeping your stuff there for you to DOWNLOAD. Same as we've had for years now. Seems the actual DRM part of the equation is pretty transpartent too....log into Daz servers once...maybe it checks once in awhile. What program nowdays doesn't do that? Photoshop until they went all cloud based checked EVERY time ya opened it. A lot of software does. Did everyone stop using Photoshop? That was a rhetorical question btw...we all know the answer to that one ;). I don't have a problem with artists trying to protect their creations or a company protecting its assets...uphill battle that it is. Seems that people are having a huge problem with any DRM at all...which I find strange. I rebelled against what SM did to GameDev, but it was only the implementation of it, not the fact that they were trying to protect their assets. It's only when it starts to become a clusterf**k for the customers that I have a problem with it. If Daz can keep it pretty transparent, what's the huge problem? Laurie


  will2power ( posted at 2:30PM Wed, 02 December 2015 

[LaurieA](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=10089) posted at 1:20PM Wed, 02 December 2015 - [#4242022](#msg4242022) > Wow, I only needed to read maybe 4 posts to get the new DRM system and people still think their stuff is all gonna be in the cloud? Reread please. The stuff still downloads to your computer. You got control of your own content on your own hard drive...the only way the cloud enters into it is keeping your stuff there for you to DOWNLOAD. Same as we've had for years now. Seems the actual DRM part of the equation is pretty transpartent too....log into Daz servers once...maybe it checks once in awhile. What program nowdays doesn't do that? Photoshop until they went all cloud based checked EVERY time ya opened it. A lot of software does. Did everyone stop using Photoshop? That was a rhetorical question btw...we all know the answer to that one ;). > > I don't have a problem with artists trying to protect their creations or a company protecting its assets...uphill battle that it is. Seems that people are having a huge problem with any DRM at all...which I find strange. I rebelled against what SM did to GameDev, but it was only the implementation of it, not the fact that they were trying to protect their assets. It's only when it starts to become a clusterf**k for the customers that I have a problem with it. If Daz can keep it pretty transparent, what's the huge problem? > > Laurie I've read the writeups from DAZ as well and my understanding of what this brings based on my experience with things DRM related. It's my experience when companies start doing stuff like this, that other changes for the worse usually follow. We have no idea of the "unintended" consequences of DRM from a technical standpoint no matter how many assurances you get from DAZ to the contrary. The usual line is that there's no impact whatsoever, or that it won't affect you. But then reality sets in along with the error messages, or the people who have activated their id on a new machine or lose it when their old machine gets struck by lightning, or when people who work on multiple computers can't get their work done because they're limited by DRM imposed limitations. I work typically on no less than four computers on a daily basis with access to several more. Let's say that you have small operation of ten computers or so and let's say the limitation of DRM is five computers? Do you purchase the exact same license again? Why should you? You purchased the product didn't you? Why should you have to purchase it again? After they implement something like this, is usually when the "adjustments" to your licensing start to show up. Since it's DRM, you have no choice but to accept whatever's imposed on you. That doesn't even begin to cover the technical aspects of "unintended consequences" Then you're dealing with things like mis-input data on a product id or your digital id get's corrupted or version conflicts because someone was asleep at the switch when they roll out a new version. It adds another level of "things that can go wrong" when it comes to working in DAZ studio. This stuff plagues even companies like Microsoft companies all the time. You get error messages like "You cannot play a Windows Media DRM protected file or a Zune DRM protected file on a computer that is preconfigured with Windows 7" see KB976590. Or if you retstore your computer from a backup image and find that your DRM content is now inaccessible because their security reads that as an attempt to circumvent DRM. No, my experience tells me that I don't want to deal with DRM. I don't want encrypted files. Like most people who work at this stuff, we like to be able to tinker and improve things or retask old assets but who's to say that six months after DRM comes out they make it so you can't edit DUF files with DRM applied to them? And what happens when DRM says you now no longer can export DRM items to other applications without paying an "Export Fee?" Even if DAZ came out today and said that will never happen, it's not worth the bits and bytes it takes to publish it. We all know that is subject to change without notice. Don't believe me? Have you seen the new Apple pencil? Or have you tried to purchase Reallusion products on DAZ? Or think of this... Some PA decides take DAZ to court over royalties or something like that and suddenly all the stuff you've purchased from them is no longer available for some reason? I have even experienced this with Amazon.com when I got some free books because one of the kindle books I purchased suddenly disappeared from my library. They had to pay it out as a result of the class action lawsuit because of that. I choose as a consumer not to deal with it. With the way things are now, I have choices which did not exist years ago, so I don't have to.

  LaurieA ( posted at 3:29PM Wed, 02 December 2015 · edited on 3:35PM Wed, 02 December 2015

Wouldn't it be better tho to throw a fit about it when and if the time comes rather than throw a fit from speculation? It seems like a better use of energy to me :). Of course, you're always free to walk off and use something else if you so choose. As for me, I'd rather not get upset until I know for sure things are going in a bad way. As it stands, it's not going to be THIS version anyway. What is it specifically that you're worried about happening that you won't agree to? Your content in the cloud only? I'd be right there screaming with you. Having the software call home now and then? Meh, I'm used to that with a lot of other software I use. No difference. Software in the cloud only? A company like Daz having their content and software in the cloud represents a slew of ongoing bandwidth headaches that I'm not sure they'd want to deal with. I'm sure at least as far as content goes, your stuff is gonna be on your hard drive for the foreseeable future. Granted, I don't know any of this for sure, I'm just trying to think it thru logically. Laurie


  will2power ( posted at 5:05PM Wed, 02 December 2015 

I'm not afraid of anything. I look at the situation and I evaluate the impact on me and what I'm doing and I make a decision based on what I observe. I did the same thing when I switched from Poser to DAZ studio. I went through two or three versions with Poser and when I saw that they had no interest in addressing things that were important to me and what I wanted to do, I went back and tried DAZ Studio again. I do not rely on brand loyalty. I'm a one person shop and I have to do everything myself so to me, the content was king. Now the writing on the wall says that DAZ is going that same route --they roll out Genesis 3 without any Path to Carrara, nor any anouncement Carrara support is coming. We've been asking for particles and dynamics for years now, and they have ignored it in every iteration, while trying to tout DAZ as being animation friendly. Their sales practices have even become suspicious --to that I point out the release of Nineve 6 and Ysabeau 6 right before releasing Genesis 3 and Victoria 7 --with no advance warning. Particularly, I note that they broke the backwards compatibility to ensure that users could not use old textures nor easily convert them so as to force users to purchase new texture sets. They could have sat down with the Genesis 2 mesh and applied the new bone system, allowing users to continue using their old content but they made the conscious choice to break continuity. All this time, they've ignored developing their own documentation, while dedicating themselves to Morph3d without addressing concerns and making improvements that would benefit their core user base. Because they're going after the semi-professional and indie market, they're ignoring the hobbyists like we're lepers. This is just the final nail in the coffin, and it's sad because I really do like their models. While none of these things individually would cause me to seek other sources, taken together it's a sign that I should move on and look for something more versatile and more responsive. I bought Iclone 6 pro as soon as I found out that they had added dynamic cloth, speed trees, perception neuron mocap and Indigo Render. I tested it and what they're doing addresses 90 percent of the things that I've been after. If they ever decide to update the native render to like a licensed version of Unreal Engine--there's no way I'd ever go back to DAZ studio for anything because they're giving me the tools to animate-which is what I do as my hobby. The only thing that DAZ has going for it is Iray Render. But now that I'm a Beta Tester for Maya Iray --I'll pay for it when it comes out in full version which means there's absolutely nothing to keep me working in DAZ studio. ![Iray for 3ds Max.png](https://bw-1651cf0d2f737d7adeab84d339dbabd3-forumpro.s3.amazonaws.com/forum_12452/thread_2895510/message_4242073/file_7f1de29e6da19d22b51c68001e7e0e54.png) DRM isn't the only reason, it's just the last in a string of reasons why I'm moving away from working in DAZ studio.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 5:42PM Wed, 02 December 2015 · edited on 5:56PM Wed, 02 December 2015

[will2power](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=740271) posted at 6:11PM Wed, 02 December 2015 - [#4242073](#msg4242073) > I'm not afraid of anything. I look at the situation and I evaluate the impact on me and what I'm doing and I make a decision based on what I observe. I did the same thing when I switched from Poser to DAZ studio. I went through two or three versions with Poser and when I saw that they had no interest in addressing things that were important to me and what I wanted to do, I went back and tried DAZ Studio again. I do not rely on brand loyalty. I'm a one person shop and I have to do everything myself so to me, the content was king. Now the writing on the wall says that DAZ is going that same route --they roll out Genesis 3 without any Path to Carrara, nor any anouncement Carrara support is coming. 1) When has DAZ announced anything in advance? Never. 2) Genesis 3 support in carrara is being worked on http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/944221/#Comment_944221 > We've been asking for particles and dynamics for years now, and they have ignored it in every iteration, while trying to tout DAZ as being animation friendly. **a few** have been asking. The thing with business is that if it isn't profitable for the effort, it won't be pursued. I think that pretty much sums up why it hasn't shown up. > Their sales practices have even become suspicious --to that I point out the release of Nineve 6 and Ysabeau 6 right before releasing Genesis 3 and Victoria 7 --with no advance warning. Nothing says you can't use two or more different generations in one scene. And people are still buying Genesis 2 items today. And again, DAZ has never announced new figures far in advance. Not with V2, V3 not with V4, nor G1 nor G2. >Particularly, I note that they broke the backwards compatibility to ensure that users could not use old textures nor easily convert them so as to force users to purchase new texture sets. They could have sat down with the Genesis 2 mesh and applied the new bone system, allowing users to continue using their old content but they made the conscious choice to break continuity. Not true at all. The changes in Genesis 3 address better posing and animation; the issue Per the designer of Genesis was keeping the V4-era things in hurt the overall design, so it was removed. Considering the uptake of Genesis 3 over Genesis 2, it was a wise decision. People are always looking for better tools, and sometimes compatibility has to be sacrificed. That said, You can still move morphs and clothing over using the transfer tool and autofit. I do know from starting to work with the mesh is that the morphs are easier to construct as I'm not pulling muscle flows from the mesh, which in turn custom morphs doesn't pull clothing in the flows' direction when morphs are autogenerated in clothing like it did in the earlier generations. > > All this time, they've ignored developing their own documentation, while dedicating themselves to Morph3d without addressing concerns and making improvements that would benefit their core user base. Because they're going after the semi-professional and indie market, they're ignoring the hobbyists like we're lepers. This is just the final nail in the coffin, and it's sad because I really do like their models. While none of these things individually would cause me to seek other sources, taken together it's a sign that I should move on and look for something more versatile and more responsive. I don't know, but DAZ doesn't keep the store filled, the PAs do. And there's plenty of content (of both Genesis 2 and 3 newly released) to choose from at DAZ and there's stuff at rendo too. So far, there's been 1 to 2 major figure releases a month, more than last generation... including Iray integration to put PBR in the hands of the average hobbyist for free. Ignoring them? I'm sorry but I think you're mistaken. . Also of note: I think the perception is that DAZ is some huge company with hundreds of employees.. not so. It's a small group.. two separate groups now with morph3d (so the gaming and DAZ Studio projects are separate, not together). They've done a lot with the small number of people they have, so certain things will have a higher priority than others. Right now and for a while now, it has been DS and everything falls in line behind that, such as Carrara... so sometimes, things haven't been worked on because they haven't gotten to it yet, so it's always good to keep the wild speculation to a minimum.

  will2power ( posted at 7:13PM Wed, 02 December 2015 

Male_M3dia, You have your opinion and I have mine, and what I see tells me the direction that they're going is not the direction that I want to go. I made the decision and I'm sure you'll make whatever purchase decision you want to make, just like I did with Poser. I've never used smart content and working on this for 4.9 tells me that they have prioritized DRM and features useless to me over improvements I have seen develop in other softwares who are less apt to hold on to outdated methods. That is the DAZ priority --it's not mine. So I'm transitioning to environments that provide the animation tools and components that I deem necessary. That's the wonderful thing about the free market. If you want to hold onto DAZ, then that's fine --I choose to move on. The funny thing is, the only thing this whole thing has done is galvanize my resolve to do it.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 8:02PM Wed, 02 December 2015 · edited on 8:05PM Wed, 02 December 2015

[will2power](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=740271) posted at 8:59PM Wed, 02 December 2015 - [#4242084](#msg4242084) > Male_M3dia, You have your opinion and I have mine, and what I see tells me the direction that they're going is not the direction that I want to go. I made the decision and I'm sure you'll make whatever purchase decision you want to make, just like I did with Poser. I've never used smart content and working on this for 4.9 tells me that they have prioritized DRM and features useless to me over improvements I have seen develop in other softwares who are less apt to hold on to outdated methods. That is the DAZ priority --it's not mine. So I'm transitioning to environments that provide the animation tools and components that I deem necessary. That's the wonderful thing about the free market. If you want to hold onto DAZ, then that's fine --I choose to move on. The funny thing is, the only thing this whole thing has done is galvanize my resolve to do it. I'm sure people's speculations will drive them to do things that end up costing them in the long run rather than taking time to look and understand the facts. I'm simply not that alarmed right now based on what I see and will wait until it shakes out. I'm doubting it anywhere near doomsday, and like always, those people tend to come back.. just don't make too much of a fuss because the words you leave are the words you end up eating ;) And over the last few years, I've seen lots of people eating hearty word salads from their angry posts that I still remember.

  artbyphil ( posted at 8:44AM Thu, 03 December 2015 

I dont even use the content management service but like to download the content and install it myself to various external drives which I can use with various computers. such as my desktop or plug it into my laptop. From what I've read it means you cannot move your content around. If I can no longer do this I will not be buying any new stuff from them.

 

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 10:12AM Thu, 03 December 2015 

[artbyphil](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=36620) posted at 11:07AM Thu, 03 December 2015 - [#4242186](#msg4242186) > I dont even use the content management service but like to download the content and install it myself to various external drives which I can use with various computers. such as my desktop or plug it into my laptop. From what I've read it means you cannot move your content around. If I can no longer do this I will not be buying any new stuff from them. You can install content you where you like, however things that you shouldn't be moving in the first place, such as items in the data directory, will probably be encrypted on DAZ connected items. Since products could be updated by item, not the whole package, you probably shouldn't move those items in the future. That said, things that call those items, such as scene subsets and wearables, could be created for those items then moved to a different location for organization.

  RHaseltine ( posted at 3:18PM Thu, 03 December 2015 

You can still choose which content directories to use, but the files go in DataCloudproductID and can't be moved from that location (but you can safely move the DataCloudProductID folder to a different content directory, something that wasn't true without tidying up in earlier versions). What you can do is create a special new "shortcut" file that points to the user-facing files (the ones you see in the content panes) and move those around as you see fit. Files for content that is already available, or that is released through DIM as well as Connect, are no longer encrypted in the latest beta - only Connect-only content will be encrypted. Going back to an earlier post, Rob Whisenant did post in one of the Daz forum threads to explicitly state that Carrara support for Genesis 3 is being worked on (or perhaps that Dual Quaternion rigging was being worked on, so that Genesis 3 could follow) and as I recall that Connect support is also planned.

  LPR001 ( posted at 11:36PM Thu, 03 December 2015 

@will2power There are loads of options out there in the market and we are tied to none but if you are jumping ship because of the DRM you might want to be kicking quite a few of your suggested alternatives of the wish list. Any member worried about how Daz will operate into the future with DRM go download UE4 or Unity for free and give it a try there is enough starter content and project files plus they give away projects you can strip for assets for use in your own UE4 created projects. UE4 is fully DRM and practically cloud based identical to the Daz concept. You download to your computer and it is also available from the cloud you have a library upstairs and downstairs. Same thing they won't be messing with what you create but another vendor or their proprietary products it is fair enough to do all they can to protect it. PS Nukeygara Akeytsu is killer!! Good choice there my friend dream come true that software.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Pinzelmeister ( posted at 10:59AM Mon, 21 December 2015 

I think this is a related issue (?) I'm using a recent beta of DAZ Studio (4.9.0.44) and having no issues **except** this: how do I find new content? The old way of finding newly installed content does not seem to work - I'm inclined to think this a deliberate strategy to make manual installation of content problematic (I'm not using DAZ install manager etc . . . whatever they are called). So previously it was : **Scan known directories for files** , , , new content would be highlighted. Now the new content is there (somewhere) but not highlighted. I can usually find it but I'm never really sure plus it's a pain hunting for it. Suggestions? Is there a work-around?

  RHaseltine ( posted at 4:22PM Mon, 21 December 2015 

The original New flags have been removed, yes, though I thought there was an equivalent that added items to the new New group. Why not install to a temporary content directory, make sure everything is working, then move to your regular location. That is how I have always (ish) worked, I've never used the Scan for new feature.

  Pinzelmeister ( posted at 5:07PM Mon, 21 December 2015 

Nice, thanks. I hadn't though of that (temp content directory) but it does seem to make sense.

  Pinzelmeister ( posted at 8:14PM Mon, 21 December 2015 

![Q1.jpg](https://bw-1651cf0d2f737d7adeab84d339dbabd3-forumpro.s3.amazonaws.com/forum_12452/thread_2895510/message_4245228/file_65b9eea6e1cc6bb9f0cd2a47751a186f.jpg) Follow-up question (showing my ignorance about how DAZ directories etc work): where would I place the "temp" folder? I.e. a new product unpacks like this (geometries libraries etc). Would I create a new "Studio Temp" under DAZ 3D? Or place it farther down the list (under My Library or other). The point is that I tried setting up a Temporary folder but ran into a roadblock . . . presumably put it in the wrong place?

  Pinzelmeister ( posted at 8:15PM Mon, 21 December 2015 · edited on 8:16PM Mon, 21 December 2015

![Q2.jpg](https://bw-1651cf0d2f737d7adeab84d339dbabd3-forumpro.s3.amazonaws.com/forum_12452/thread_2895510/message_4245229/file_42a0e188f5033bc65bf8d78622277c4e.jpg) (A screenshot of my content dir. mgr folders.)

  RHaseltine ( posted at 4:11PM Tue, 22 December 2015 

Add a new content directory - for Poser and for DS - to the lists in the last screenshot then install there. This also has the advantage that the RuntimeTextures folder will be largely empty so if there's a bad path it's a quick matter to find the correct path (or confirm that the file is missing).

  Pinzelmeister ( posted at 9:58PM Sun, 03 January 2016 

RHaseltine: thanks! I had to think about it for a while but I seem to "get" it now.

  mmitchell_houston ( posted at 12:11PM Mon, 18 January 2016 

[Black__Days](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=494313) posted at 12:05PM Mon, 18 January 2016 - [#4237769](#msg4237769) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 9:08PM Mon, 09 November 2015 - [#4237743](#msg4237743) > >> I am not speaking strictly about content development pace, per se, but more generational iteration and base/main character proliferation. I simply feel it's too fast. That's a personal opinion, and I completely understand why people might disagree. I have felt this way since M2/V2 were replaced by M3/V3/David/Stephanie/Freak.... Features we once took for granted (like facial expressions!) are now monetized, and what once would have been a character morph and texture set is now instead a new $30 base character. > > Characters like Gianni 6 and Olympia 6 being their own base, with their own UVs, instead of just some new expansion for M/V6 are a prime example... Potential customers for Gianni 6 would only be a subset of people that already owned Michael 6, instead of everyone with Genesis 2 Male installed maybe buying him. > > I just miss the days when you bought a figure, and that figure was a whole product, complete with body morphs to change body type, facial morphs to emote or make elf ears, fangs, etc. Now all of that is $10-$20 each. I would like to see a middle ground, where DAZ can make plenty of money and users can get more out of the content they buy. Very well said. The increased cost of picking up each-and-every little morph and expression pack is why I have not upgraded to the G3 figures. I'm still using G1 & G2 almost exclusively, with frequent use of M4 thrown in the mix. I even dusted off V3 the other day because she has a certain "statuesque" look that I find hard to duplicate in the newer figures. At the rate things are going, I won't invest heavily in any G3 content until version 4 comes out and all the old stuff finally goes on sale.

- - - - - - - - - -
System: Alienware 17 laptop: Windows 10 Pro, 32GB RAM | Intel Core i7-6700HQ (Quad-Core, 6MB Cache 3.5GHz) | Onboard Video: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970M 3GB GDDR5 1028 CUDA Cores | Alienware Graphics Amplifier: GeForce GTX 980 ti 6GB (006G-P4-4996-KR)  2816 CUDA Cores

mikemitchellonline.blogspot.com  |  Poser Noir Tutorial 

  Razor42 ( posted at 5:40PM Mon, 18 January 2016 · edited on 5:43PM Mon, 18 January 2016

Well, all I can say is I didn't say either of those things so something is going wrong in your quotation mmitchel_houston. Here is the quote [#4237743](#msg4237743) that you have referenced. [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 10:37AM Tue, 19 January 2016 - [#4237743](#msg4237743) > [Black__Days](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=494313) posted at 10:57AM Tue, 10 November 2015 - [#4237740](#msg4237740) > > > So, what I want to know is if 4.9 is also going to coincide with Michael 7 / Genesis 3 Male. If so, that leaves me looking very uneasily toward DAZ Studio 5 and the probable introduction of Genesis 4 in a year at most. > > > > That's my biggest issue with DAZ, to be honest. I don't mind the DAZ Connect move, and the DIM didn't really bother me either. What bothers me is the pace of the content treadmill. It seem that it's been getting steadily faster, with periods between generations of figures shortening. Maybe I'll just bow out of the whole thing, play with the toys I have, and maybe jump back on the treadmill with generation 8. > > I tend to find this one is also a bit of a misnomer. Sure the pace of content development seems to be increasing, but that would just offer more content choice wouldn't it. I still use Genesis and Genesis 2 quite a bit and I hear some also like V4 for some reason. Just because newer products arrive doesn't make the old ones redundant or in any way less useful. I know when I buy a computer, that pretty much before I power it on there will likely be a newer faster system available for the same price I paid. But I don't buy a computer to be the fastest forever, I purchase it to do a job and as long as the system can do that job for me for a number of years, I'm happy with it. I have no issue that newer faster models are arriving, in fact I just find it somewhat exciting that when I do choose to upgrade that the development has kept pushing the edge and I'm going to have a new faster and more powerful beast to put to work. A few of the software packs I use are also back a few versions from the latest too. > > IMO What would be even scarier is to be stuck with the same level of tech or figure base for over ten years, while seeing very little advancement in the tech, wait a sec when was V4 made... ;)


  Disciple3d ( posted at 12:31PM Thu, 21 January 2016 

Has anyone figured out how to uninstall from within the new interface. The Video Tutorial says it covers installing and uninstaller but after watching it twice I'm sure it only covers installing.

If you want to up your content game, get schooled to be a pro with Sixus1 Mentoring today!

  Razor42 ( posted at 5:35PM Thu, 21 January 2016 

@greybro What is it your trying to do?


  Disciple3d ( posted at 7:23PM Thu, 21 January 2016 

Delete broken content

If you want to up your content game, get schooled to be a pro with Sixus1 Mentoring today!

  Razor42 ( posted at 7:31PM Thu, 21 January 2016 

You can uninstall through DIM for Daz3D content. If its other third party content you would need to manually remove associated files.


  Disciple3d ( posted at 8:37PM Thu, 21 January 2016 

The thing is, I deleted the whole runtime for all of it, but it still shows up broken thumbnails in 4.9 DS

If you want to up your content game, get schooled to be a pro with Sixus1 Mentoring today!

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:46PM Thu, 21 January 2016 

Okay I'm going to need to make a few assumptions :) I will assume you are talking about thumbs in the Smart Content Pane? If this is the case what's happening is the product is gone but your database still believes it to be there just missing. You can remove the orphan references by going to the Smart Content window and using the dropdown at the top of the tab select _Content DB Maintenance_ Then you want to tick _Remove Orphan File References_ then apply. If you want to start from Scratch you can use _Reset Database_ but this is literally a clean reset. So don't do this if there is anything you do want to retain in your CMS database.


  Tony_Stark ( posted at 2:58PM Sun, 24 January 2016 · edited on 2:58PM Sun, 24 January 2016

One of my gripes is the way DAZ scatters their content all over the place. Some stuff is in folders named after the Published Artist. Some stuff is not. I don't want to search for my stuff. DIM or DAZ Connect is no good to me until DAZ organizes their content. ![!!!!Characters.jpg](https://bw-1651cf0d2f737d7adeab84d339dbabd3-forumpro.s3.amazonaws.com/forum_12452/thread_2895510/message_4251049/file_0777d5c17d4066b82ab86dff8a46af6f.jpg)

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:36PM Sun, 24 January 2016 

[Tony_Stark](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=690296) posted at 1:34PM Mon, 25 January 2016 - [#4251049](#msg4251049) > One of my gripes is the way DAZ scatters their content all over the place. Some stuff is in folders named after the Published Artist. Some stuff is not. I don't want to search for my stuff. DIM or DAZ Connect is no good to me until DAZ organizes their content. > > > ![!!!!Characters.jpg](https://bw-1651cf0d2f737d7adeab84d339dbabd3-forumpro.s3.amazonaws.com/forum_12452/thread_2895510/message_4251049/file_0777d5c17d4066b82ab86dff8a46af6f.jpg) Really what you're pointing out are vanity folders which is an issue that goes beyond Daz to almost any content provider from any store even freebies. Daz Connect is aimed at relieving the database management aspects of DS mainly in New Users who don't really want to spend time pulling apart zip files and storing them under a personal database management plan. Daz Connect doesnt store Daz 3D product files how you are showing.


  Male_M3dia ( posted at 9:13PM Sun, 24 January 2016 

[Tony_Stark](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=690296) posted at 10:07PM Sun, 24 January 2016 - [#4251049](#msg4251049) > One of my gripes is the way DAZ scatters their content all over the place. Some stuff is in folders named after the Published Artist. Some stuff is not. I don't want to search for my stuff. DIM or DAZ Connect is no good to me until DAZ organizes their content. > > > ![!!!!Characters.jpg](https://bw-1651cf0d2f737d7adeab84d339dbabd3-forumpro.s3.amazonaws.com/forum_12452/thread_2895510/message_4251049/file_0777d5c17d4066b82ab86dff8a46af6f.jpg) That is the standard organization. Actually if you look at there's two different types of data being shown in the image you'll notice the .duf files in the root character directory is the character presets to load the character as a shortcut into the scene. Then the folder below that are the PAs folder for each character they create so you add options to that character. So PA character presets as well as the DAZ originals such as Victoria (or in the image's case Belle 6) would be available there. So the data isn't really all over the place, you disagree with the way it's organized. In 4.9 instead of moving those files, I believe you create your new folder and click the figure in smart content and drag it to the folder and it will create a link and you can move that.

  Tony_Stark ( posted at 8:00AM Mon, 25 January 2016 

OMG, you are wrong. There are no shortcuts to the characters found within the "Vanity" folders. The Vanity folders are just another needless distraction. I don't see a need for a database. Just label the folders correctly.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 8:32AM Mon, 25 January 2016 · edited on 8:34AM Mon, 25 January 2016

[Tony_Stark](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=690296) posted at 9:29AM Mon, 25 January 2016 - [#4251135](#msg4251135) > OMG, you are wrong. There are no shortcuts to the characters found within the "Vanity" folders. The Vanity folders are just another needless distraction. I don't see a need for a database. Just label the folders correctly. You didn't read my post correctly. The .duf files are the character presets which load the character without drilling down and is used in smart content. For each product there has to be at least one character preset. The folders with PA names aren't vanity folders, the folders are there, organized by PA, since PAs may make multiple characters. More customers recognize characters by the PA that made it rather than the name of the character itself. That's how QA wants it set up, if you want to change it in 4.9 you'll have to drag the icon from smart content into a folder you made and it will create a link that you can then organize. Like I said, just because you disagree with it does not make it wrong.

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:36AM Mon, 25 January 2016 · edited on 8:44AM Mon, 25 January 2016

You say you don't see a need for a database? Definition of a database is: **A database is a collection of information that is organized so that it can easily be accessed, managed, and updated.** Sounds exactly like what you're asking for? Consistent organisation of file structure. Unfortunately just saying "Just label the folders correctly." has never been a good way of achieving what you're asking for. Under the current setup it's been proved practically impossible to bring all content creators inline to a consistent folder naming convention across all stores and content. And not just in DS content. .... ZOMG :grin: Here's a simple example of one of the issues, I have made an eye material that works on both Genesis 3 Male and Female. Lets call it sweet shine eye material. Where is the correct place to put the folder for the eye material preset? It's just a single mat preset in a folder called Sweet Eye Shine.


  McGrandpa ( posted at 4:09PM Mon, 25 January 2016 

Wow. I read the first two pages, skipped to and read the eleventh page. I see some current issues. DATABASE; by definition we all use databases in many forms every time we use our electronic devices. The OS's create and use databases completely transparent to us. We/I use the Poser Runtime file architecture, which is of course, a form of database. One Runtime or dozens, no matter, Databases. Posers are a bit more rigidly structured and adhered to than DS's. Though DS and Carrara have been able to work with the Poser Runtime for many years, they have more complex databasing systems that Poser will never see at all. DS 4.9: no matter what great new features, improvements and fixes are introduced in this new version, it will remain UNINSTALLED on my system. It will not be used as right after all the file downloading finished and I got them all stored and ready for burning to disk, I noted in some of the forum threads at DAZ (who deleted several of my posts concerning the new issues) that 4.9 is really the vehicle to introduce both "Gun And Bullet"; ergo DRM via enforced internal use only encrypted content. The ONLY thing DAZ needs to do at this point to absolutely lock this system into place is simply deny access to normal unencrypted zip files through the Product Library. Clearly MANY people have been in the know about this for the last two years at least. A number of DAZ "inside" people jumped ship, a good sized handful even started their own company. About that Gun And Bullet thing. I have been a happy, paying and honest user at DAZ alone for almost a dozen years. I am no thief, nor a liar. And in dealing with "business" as an employee in several sectors of economy, I have learned that WHEN a business creates a "Gun And Bullet" situation, said business has shot that bullet 100% of the time. This is not a disgruntled paying user talking. This is an experienced troubleshooter. The first axiom to work by is "KNOW THE PROCESS". Well, that process is abhorrently simple, easy to dismantle and examine. DAZ WILL FORCE USE OF ENCRYPTED CONTENT. It doesn't matter that I alone paid their asking price for thousands of items, accepted happily free items and discounts of all sizes, and paid full price for some stuff too. It doesn't matter that thousands of other people have done the same or bought even more than I have. Many have bought more than I have! And we are *ALL* SEEN AS THIEVES! This is true because we are treated as a thief. I am not going to argue ANY of this with the "PA's", the "Vendors" the content creators and sellers. *YOU* people are the ones who have created the US and THEM scenario, granted it was egged along for YEARS by a few individuals. Well, YOU and US exists. Not any good for anyone actually. "YOU" created a sort of mini egalitarian society within OUR (YOU and US equals OUR, yes dammit it really does!) OUR community. I accepted long ago that OUR community covers more than the half dozen 3D sites I use, and also includes several dozen web based forums. I have watched for a dozen years, and I learned 25 years ago there is and never will be ANYTHING *PRIVATE* in the online world. Security is an illusion. Honesty is not. Truth is not. Thieves are also a truth. I do MY part in this. I pay, I use according to honest rules, I do not engage in any form of casual piracy. So I am hurrying up and trying to get ALL my DAZ content backed up with their zip files. In this process I found there were some items I never even downloaded. Argh! I can hope but do not expect DAZ to hold off locking out non-encrypted users for long. That is the gun and bullet and DAZ Sales Managers finger is very itchy on that trigger. We all THINK we know what is gonna happen. Nobody will until it actually does. We will see, soon enough.

McG.

  Tony_Stark ( posted at 4:13PM Mon, 25 January 2016 

The overwhelming majority of my content is NOT located within "Vanity" folders or folders using the Published Artist's names. I really wonder if you people look at your content before you post replies?! If I buy an outfit for Michael 7, I want the outfit to be installed in a folder with the name of the outfit I bought. I don't need the outfit put into a category. I don't want DAZ Studio to tell me what type of outfit it is, or which pieces can be mixed or matched.

  wheatpenny ( posted at 9:56PM Mon, 25 January 2016 

I get what you're saying. For example, in the smart content tab, not all of my animals are in the "animals" category, a lot of them are in the "Figures" category. And the "scenes" category only contains a couple of the many "scenes" I have, etc. I really do think they should add a way to reassign content to whichever category you think they should be in.




Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

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  Male_M3dia ( posted at 10:06PM Mon, 25 January 2016 

[Tony_Stark](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=690296) posted at 11:02PM Mon, 25 January 2016 - [#4251196](#msg4251196) > The overwhelming majority of my content is NOT located within "Vanity" folders or folders using the Published Artist's names. I really wonder if you people look at your content before you post replies?! > > If I buy an outfit for Michael 7, I want the outfit to be installed in a folder with the name of the outfit I bought. I don't need the outfit put into a category. I don't want DAZ Studio to tell me what type of outfit it is, or which pieces can be mixed or matched. You can always create your own categories in meta data or drag a link from smart content to organize. But DAZ figures have the folders set up as I mentioned. Considering I have a store full of content set up like that and the time I didn't, it failed QA and got kicked back to me, this is how it's going to be set up. Once again, just because you don't agree with the setup doesn't make it wrong. You have to use an alternate method of organizing as the base files won't be available for moving.

  EricVM ( posted at 11:16PM Mon, 25 January 2016 

[McGrandpa](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=448012) posted at 8:59PM Mon, 25 January 2016 - [#4251195](#msg4251195) **> DS 4.9: no matter what great new features, improvements and fixes are introduced in this new version, it will remain UNINSTALLED on my system. It will not be used as right after all the file downloading finished and I got them all stored and ready for burning to disk, I noted in some of the forum threads at DAZ (who deleted several of my posts concerning the new issues) that 4.9 is really the vehicle to introduce both "Gun And Bullet"; ergo DRM via enforced internal use only encrypted content. > The ONLY thing DAZ needs to do at this point to absolutely lock this system into place is simply deny access to normal unencrypted zip files through the Product Library. ** I liked and whole heartedly agree with your whole post Mr. McG. I had a post removed because I explained to someone the slow herding into a walled garden you'll get stuck in with their "encryption" they like to call it. In a post many pages before DAZ_Rawb said it wasn't DRM. This is why it was removed via an email to me. " A post you made to "No encrypted for me." has been removed for making accusations and speculation presented as fact". I won't spend another penny there and I spend a lot of pennies for enjoyment with my 3D hobby.

  dreamcutter ( posted at 11:18PM Mon, 25 January 2016 

[will2power](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=740271) posted at 1:16PM Tue, 26 January 2016 - [#4242073](#msg4242073) > I'm not afraid of anything. I look at the situation and I evaluate the impact on me and what I'm doing and I make a decision based on what I observe. I did the same thing when I switched from Poser to DAZ studio. I went through two or three versions with Poser and when I saw that they had no interest in addressing things that were important to me and what I wanted to do, I went back and tried DAZ Studio again. I do not rely on brand loyalty. I'm a one person shop and I have to do everything myself so to me, the content was king. Now the writing on the wall says that DAZ is going that same route --they roll out Genesis 3 without any Path to Carrara, nor any anouncement Carrara support is coming. We've been asking for particles and dynamics for years now, and they have ignored it in every iteration, while trying to tout DAZ as being animation friendly. Their sales practices have even become suspicious --to that I point out the release of Nineve 6 and Ysabeau 6 right before releasing Genesis 3 and Victoria 7 --with no advance warning. Particularly, I note that they broke the backwards compatibility to ensure that users could not use old textures nor easily convert them so as to force users to purchase new texture sets. They could have sat down with the Genesis 2 mesh and applied the new bone system, allowing users to continue using their old content but they made the conscious choice to break continuity. > > All this time, they've ignored developing their own documentation, while dedicating themselves to Morph3d without addressing concerns and making improvements that would benefit their core user base. Because they're going after the semi-professional and indie market, they're ignoring the hobbyists like we're lepers. This is just the final nail in the coffin, and it's sad because I really do like their models. While none of these things individually would cause me to seek other sources, taken together it's a sign that I should move on and look for something more versatile and more responsive. > > I bought Iclone 6 pro as soon as I found out that they had added dynamic cloth, speed trees, perception neuron mocap and Indigo Render. I tested it and what they're doing addresses 90 percent of the things that I've been after. If they ever decide to update the native render to like a licensed version of Unreal Engine--there's no way I'd ever go back to DAZ studio for anything because they're giving me the tools to animate-which is what I do as my hobby. The only thing that DAZ has going for it is Iray Render. But now that I'm a Beta Tester for Maya Iray --I'll pay for it when it comes out in full version which means there's absolutely nothing to keep me working in DAZ studio. > > ![Iray for 3ds Max.png](https://bw-1651cf0d2f737d7adeab84d339dbabd3-forumpro.s3.amazonaws.com/forum_12452/thread_2895510/message_4242073/file_7f1de29e6da19d22b51c68001e7e0e54.png) > > > DRM isn't the only reason, it's just the last in a string of reasons why I'm moving away from working in DAZ studio. Recommend you redact your ORDER NUMBER from that image and repost!


  chaecuna ( posted at 4:03AM Tue, 26 January 2016 

[EricVM](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=782869) posted at 10:59AM Tue, 26 January 2016 - [#4251241](#msg4251241) > [McGrandpa](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=448012) posted at 8:59PM Mon, 25 January 2016 - [#4251195](#msg4251195) > > I liked and whole heartedly agree with your whole post Mr. McG. I had a post removed because I explained to someone the slow herding into a walled garden you'll get stuck in with their "encryption" they like to call it. In a post many pages before DAZ_Rawb said it wasn't DRM. > This is why it was removed via an email to me. > " A post you made to "No encrypted for me." has been removed for making accusations and speculation presented as fact". > I won't spend another penny there and I spend a lot of pennies for enjoyment with my 3D hobby. They are removing so many posts on that encryption thread that if you keep refreshing pages you get vertigo :grinning:. All discussions are useless; now that DAZ burned bridges the only constructive occupation is to find (and share with other users) alternative worflows/tools/content to DAZ.

  Razor42 ( posted at 4:26AM Tue, 26 January 2016 · edited on 4:29AM Tue, 26 January 2016

Well I hate to see you go Chae, but I guess if you're not going to be using Daz Studio anymore I guess that means you wouldn't be dropping into the Daz Studio forums much either. Wait a minute didn't you stop using DS months ago?


  will2power ( posted at 5:03AM Tue, 26 January 2016 

[dreamcutter](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=707949) posted at 4:58AM Tue, 26 January 2016 - [#4251242](#msg4251242) > Recommend you redact your ORDER NUMBER from that image and repost! Not to worry, dreamcutter. If you want to see the price on the NVidia Website, you have to add the item to your cart. The order number in that picture isn't valid. It was just an example to show the cost of Iray.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 5:55AM Tue, 26 January 2016 · edited on 6:09AM Tue, 26 January 2016

[EricVM](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=782869) posted at 6:48AM Tue, 26 January 2016 - [#4251241](#msg4251241) > [McGrandpa](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=448012) posted at 8:59PM Mon, 25 January 2016 - [#4251195](#msg4251195) > > **> DS 4.9: no matter what great new features, improvements and fixes are introduced in this new version, it will remain UNINSTALLED on my system. It will not be used as right after all the file downloading finished and I got them all stored and ready for burning to disk, I noted in some of the forum threads at DAZ (who deleted several of my posts concerning the new issues) that 4.9 is really the vehicle to introduce both "Gun And Bullet"; ergo DRM via enforced internal use only encrypted content. > > The ONLY thing DAZ needs to do at this point to absolutely lock this system into place is simply deny access to normal unencrypted zip files through the Product Library. > ** > > I liked and whole heartedly agree with your whole post Mr. McG. I had a post removed because I explained to someone the slow herding into a walled garden you'll get stuck in with their "encryption" they like to call it. In a post many pages before DAZ_Rawb said it wasn't DRM. > This is why it was removed via an email to me. > " A post you made to "No encrypted for me." has been removed for making accusations and speculation presented as fact". > I won't spend another penny there and I spend a lot of pennies for enjoyment with my 3D hobby. The thing about this walled garden being ridiculously incorrect (and thus your wild speculation deleted) is that DAZ is in the business of selling content, but they don't make their own; they get it from vendors submitting content to them and bringing more content developers into making content. Also their content gets more support from people at different stores making items for their base content and people supporting it with freebies. So if people can't even save content or get content into DS because it's a "walled garden", please explain how do you expect them to sell brokered content or even submit it for review? Again, they don't make content, they sell it. A walled garden can't happen if they want people to continue to make content for DS. That flawed logic is why those speculations were probably deleted, because they simply make no sense. Never mind that it doesn't even cover those that make freebies and/or their own content and don't want to sell at all. This argument conveniently omits how that comes into play. The encryption comes from the standpoint of DAZ wanted to protect the assets they sell, not locking everything down so they can't even get someone to submit it to them. Think your thoughts all the way through before you post them.

  dreamcutter ( posted at 9:18AM Tue, 26 January 2016 · edited on 9:21AM Tue, 26 January 2016

[Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 11:13PM Tue, 26 January 2016 - [#4251270](#msg4251270) > [EricVM](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=782869) posted at 6:48AM Tue, 26 January 2016 - [#4251241](#msg4251241) ... > > " A post you made to "No encrypted for me." has been removed for making accusations and speculation presented as fact". > > I won't spend another penny there and I spend a lot of pennies for enjoyment with my 3D hobby. > > The thing about this walled garden being ridiculously incorrect (and thus your wild speculation deleted) is that DAZ is in the business of selling content, but they don't make their own; they get it from vendors submitting content to them and bringing more content developers into making content. Also their content gets more support from people at different stores making items for their base content and people supporting it with freebies. So if people can't even save content or get content into DS because it's a "walled garden", please explain how do you expect them to sell brokered content or even submit it for review? Again, they don't make content, they sell it. A walled garden can't happen if they want people to continue to make content for DS. That flawed logic is why those speculations were probably deleted, because they simply make no sense. Never mind that it doesn't even cover those that make freebies and/or their own content and don't want to sell at all. This argument conveniently omits how that comes into play. The encryption comes from the standpoint of DAZ wanted to protect the assets they sell, not locking everything down so they can't even get someone to submit it to them. > > Think your thoughts all the way through before you post them. I read it as the reverse - content exclusive to DS. Perhaps he meant walled garden because of content created by DS and sold at DAZ3D might become encrypted to only work on DS and not other pipeline apps. That significantly reduces the value of the content.


  will2power ( posted at 10:11AM Tue, 26 January 2016 

I tend to agree with Dreamcutter and EricVM. This move makes it harder to work in other applications under the auspices of saying they're providing you with enhanced features. That's a first step. Then the next step is limiting the number of computers you can use your own content on. Then they make it so your old content won't work in DAZ Studio and voila! you're in that walled garden and you're wondering how you got there. They never do big changes like that in one shot --most of the time they make one change here and there hoping that you won't notice what's happening. I'm not purchasing any Encrypted content, and I'm actually to the point where I have a few more purchases of older content I like before saying goodbye to the DAZ marketplace. I love the figures, but I don't care for being restricted either by content or platform. The moment they do away with manual downloads or DIM, will be the moment I stop shopping at DAZ completely.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 10:24AM Tue, 26 January 2016 · edited on 10:33AM Tue, 26 January 2016

[dreamcutter](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=707949) posted at 11:17AM Tue, 26 January 2016 - [#4251304](#msg4251304) > [Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 11:13PM Tue, 26 January 2016 - [#4251270](#msg4251270) > > > [EricVM](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=782869) posted at 6:48AM Tue, 26 January 2016 - [#4251241](#msg4251241) > ... > > > " A post you made to "No encrypted for me." has been removed for making accusations and speculation presented as fact". > > > I won't spend another penny there and I spend a lot of pennies for enjoyment with my 3D hobby. > > > > The thing about this walled garden being ridiculously incorrect (and thus your wild speculation deleted) is that DAZ is in the business of selling content, but they don't make their own; they get it from vendors submitting content to them and bringing more content developers into making content. Also their content gets more support from people at different stores making items for their base content and people supporting it with freebies. So if people can't even save content or get content into DS because it's a "walled garden", please explain how do you expect them to sell brokered content or even submit it for review? Again, they don't make content, they sell it. A walled garden can't happen if they want people to continue to make content for DS. That flawed logic is why those speculations were probably deleted, because they simply make no sense. Never mind that it doesn't even cover those that make freebies and/or their own content and don't want to sell at all. This argument conveniently omits how that comes into play. The encryption comes from the standpoint of DAZ wanted to protect the assets they sell, not locking everything down so they can't even get someone to submit it to them. > > > > Think your thoughts all the way through before you post them. > > I read it as the reverse - content exclusive to DS. Perhaps he meant walled garden because of content created by DS and sold at DAZ3D might become encrypted to only work on DS and not other pipeline apps. That significantly reduces the value of the content. Again, think this through... if you're taking content to other apps, how is that getting there? Obj, CR2, FBX, alembic.. those formats still work, and need to work not only for end users, but for content developers as well because they have pipelines that need to work to get things submitted back to daz and other storefronts. If DAZ is advertising from the home page content for Maya and other apps, then those pipelines won't change because it's being exported to those apps... and many of those apps are necessary for content development because you can't make content within DAZ studio. So once again, the walled garden argument is weak at best. The main problem is the fact that the installers themselves are not protected and it's far to easy for them to be uploaded to sites. DAZ is in business to sell content so if they can get it more places they will. But they still have an obligation to protect their assets as well, so it needs to be a balance as not doing anything except sending out take down notices that no longer work is no longer an option. And if other sites find that their content experiences an increase in theft, don't think they won't look into protecting their interests as well.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 10:35AM Tue, 26 January 2016 

Also keep in mind that DAZ doesn't sell all types of products. There's things that they will never sell, such as some items that pop up on renderotica, so walling off anything that helps them sell more of their base content doesn't make good business sense either.

  will2power ( posted at 2:23PM Tue, 26 January 2016 · edited on 2:24PM Tue, 26 January 2016

If you want to advocate it, that's fine --I just don't share your assessment of what's going on, and my experience tells me that this is the jumping off point with DAZ studio. It won't be long before the only content allowed to be sold will be encrypted, and what then? At that point they've got you by the short hairs and they can do pretty much anything they want. Since the content's already encrypted, you're one "harmless" update away from being held hostage. Then if they decide to make you pay a subscription fee to export their content, or a per use export fee --what are you going to do then? Or if heaven forbid, DAZ was to go out of business a year or two down the road, what happened to all your content? We just had that happen at work where a vendor of a certain Safety program software shut off it's registration server so there was no way you could re-install the software. When we called them about this -we were encouraged to purchase their "new" software which was three times more expensive and did the exact same thing.When I heard that, we immediately told them that we would no longer be giving them our business and that was that. This is the same thing --you're set up so that you're dependent on DAZ3D and then --like every good pusher will tell you --you jack the price up. Sorry, but I'm not going to stick my head in that noose.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 5:27PM Tue, 26 January 2016 

[will2power](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=740271) posted at 6:20PM Tue, 26 January 2016 - [#4251349](#msg4251349) > If you want to advocate it, that's fine --I just don't share your assessment of what's going on, and my experience tells me that this is the jumping off point with DAZ studio. It won't be long before the only content allowed to be sold will be encrypted, and what then? At that point they've got you by the short hairs and they can do pretty much anything they want. Since the content's already encrypted, you're one "harmless" update away from being held hostage. Then if they decide to make you pay a subscription fee to export their content, or a per use export fee --what are you going to do then? Or if heaven forbid, DAZ was to go out of business a year or two down the road, what happened to all your content? We just had that happen at work where a vendor of a certain Safety program software shut off it's registration server so there was no way you could re-install the software. When we called them about this -we were encouraged to purchase their "new" software which was three times more expensive and did the exact same thing.When I heard that, we immediately told them that we would no longer be giving them our business and that was that. This is the same thing --you're set up so that you're dependent on DAZ3D and then --like every good pusher will tell you --you jack the price up. Sorry, but I'm not going to stick my head in that noose. Well that's certainly your prerogative; I certainly don't see the end of the world, especially over digital bikinis ;) And not when I have DVDs, digital video TV shows and movies, songs on my ipod, iphone apps, apps purchased through Apples App Store, digital subcriptions to Adobe, Marvelous Designer, Pixologic etc... and what DAZ is doing is nowhere near that. And none of that stops me from doing what I need to do with my content that i purchased licenses too. People are simply letting their imagination and anger get the best of them and if that's cause for you to leave then good luck in your further endeavors. But I've said it before, once the smoke the misinformation has caused clears, many will be back just like so many things in the past.

  dreamcutter ( posted at 7:47PM Tue, 26 January 2016 · edited on 7:55PM Tue, 26 January 2016

Being a Vue and IClone user as well, I have my thrills with DRM. Both these outlets use encryption to enforce the EULA and to generate more revenue from users who want to use the same content in competing applications. Two sources of extra revenue - Ref: Vue Export Module and RealLusions IClone Pipeline3D Exchange. These are expensive plug-ins/add-on to the main application and there is an additional premium for content that is "exportable" in the content store. It's not unline airlines adjusting the business model by charging for luggage.


  chaecuna ( posted at 9:50PM Tue, 26 January 2016 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 4:32AM Wed, 27 January 2016 - [#4251259](#msg4251259) > Wait a minute didn't you stop using DS months ago? Almost, nowadays I use it (in the order of 1/2 times per week) to export from DAZ proprietary formats into open ones. To do what I will describe below I will have to actually somewhat get back to it. [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 4:32AM Wed, 27 January 2016 - [#4251259](#msg4251259) > Well I hate to see you go Chae, > but I guess if you're not going to be using Daz Studio anymore I guess that means you wouldn't be dropping into the Daz Studio forums much either. Probably you missed the part in which I wrote about sharing information with other users. I, differently from most people, act as soon as I see the writing on the wall and do not, like most persons, wait for the bus to hit me. We can discuss on the timetable for Studio to become a "walled garden" for DAZ content but not on the direction so now finding alternatives to Studio has become a non delayable issue. Since I got so much from the Blender community, I will explore in detail how to move from Studio (and Poser, because Poser is not a viable alternative to Studio, only a time-limited patch to the problem) to Blender and report in detail (read tutorials) on the tools and workflows. It is not different from what I have done with Vue Infinite: one day I decided to stop being ripped off by the maintenance contract and switched to Blender for natural scenes. The first two years were very painful but now everything has settled down, I can create natural renders better than my best Vue works and, relying on FOSS tools, I am forever free from the clutches of greedy fatcats who charge 100's of dollar for every dwindling updates. P.S.: for bystanders reading this thread: whenever you see somebody singing the praises of DAZ DRM, check their nicknames over DAZ: you will find that most of them are DAZ PAs. Weight their statements accordingly.

  Razor42 ( posted at 1:33AM Wed, 27 January 2016 

@ Chae, A little of topic but I was wondering if this means anything to you? ![Tesseract.gif](https://bw-1651cf0d2f737d7adeab84d339dbabd3-forumpro.s3.amazonaws.com/forum_12452/thread_2895510/message_4251446/file_8f85517967795eeef66c225f7883bdcb.gif)


  chaecuna ( posted at 7:00AM Wed, 27 January 2016 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 1:59PM Wed, 27 January 2016 - [#4251446](#msg4251446) > @ Chae, A little of topic but I was wondering if this means anything to you? > > ![Tesseract.gif](https://bw-1651cf0d2f737d7adeab84d339dbabd3-forumpro.s3.amazonaws.com/forum_12452/thread_2895510/message_4251446/file_8f85517967795eeef66c225f7883bdcb.gif) DAZ Cloud will be hypercube based? Wow.

  Tony_Stark ( posted at 11:16AM Wed, 27 January 2016 

I wanted to experiment a bit with DAZ Connect. Is this a program or application, like DIM?! I can't find it anywhere.

  DustRider ( posted at 12:22PM Wed, 27 January 2016 

DAZ Connect is a part of (integrated into) DS 4.9. It enables searching for products, purchasing, and installation of DAZ3D content directly in DS, without ever leaving DAZ Studio (see this video for more info ). It does use a different file structure/location than DIM installed content, and if you use the content tab instead of smart content you will need to do a bit of work to make Connect content visible in the content tab. With the introduction of DAZ Connect also came the introduction of encrypted content that requires a "decryption" key. This is what has cause most of the "unrest", though Carrara and Poser users are also upset because Connect and encrypted content aren't usable with either one. Hope this helps!

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

  DustRider ( posted at 12:25PM Wed, 27 January 2016 

[chaecuna](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=721469) posted at 11:24AM Wed, 27 January 2016 - [#4251429](#msg4251429) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 4:32AM Wed, 27 January 2016 - [#4251259](#msg4251259) > > > Wait a minute didn't you stop using DS months ago? > > Almost, nowadays I use it (in the order of 1/2 times per week) to export from DAZ proprietary formats into open ones. To do what I will describe below I will have to actually somewhat get back to it. > > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 4:32AM Wed, 27 January 2016 - [#4251259](#msg4251259) > > > Well I hate to see you go Chae, > > but I guess if you're not going to be using Daz Studio anymore I guess that means you wouldn't be dropping into the Daz Studio forums much either. > > Probably you missed the part in which I wrote about sharing information with other users. > > I, differently from most people, act as soon as I see the writing on the wall and do not, like most persons, wait for the bus to hit me. We can discuss on the timetable for Studio to become a "walled garden" for DAZ content but not on the direction so now finding alternatives to Studio has become a non delayable issue. Since I got so much from the Blender community, I will explore in detail how to move from Studio (and Poser, because Poser is not a viable alternative to Studio, only a time-limited patch to the problem) to Blender and report in detail (read tutorials) on the tools and workflows. It is not different from what I have done with Vue Infinite: one day I decided to stop being ripped off by the maintenance contract and switched to Blender for natural scenes. The first two years were very painful but now everything has settled down, I can create natural renders better than my best Vue works and, relying on FOSS tools, I am forever free from the clutches of greedy fatcats who charge 100's of dollar for every dwindling updates. > > P.S.: for bystanders reading this thread: whenever you see somebody singing the praises of DAZ DRM, check their nicknames over DAZ: you will find that most of them are DAZ PAs. Weight their statements accordingly. I would be very interested in learning about your workflow from DS/Poser to Blender. Are/will these tutorials be made available in here, or are they somewhere else?

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

  Tony_Stark ( posted at 6:37PM Wed, 27 January 2016 

I've been looking more closely at DAZ Studio 4.9. I see the window where you can peek at the store. It's an awfully small window. I'd prefer something that can be adjusted to fill a monitor screen. I have a 24" monitor and 27" monitor. I undocked the content "tab" so I can see more all at once!

  tsarist ( posted at 3:59PM Thu, 28 January 2016 

[will2power](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=740271) posted at 4:56PM Thu, 28 January 2016 - [#4251349](#msg4251349) > If you want to advocate it, that's fine --I just don't share your assessment of what's going on, and my experience tells me that this is the jumping off point with DAZ studio. It won't be long before the only content allowed to be sold will be encrypted, and what then? At that point they've got you by the short hairs and they can do pretty much anything they want. Since the content's already encrypted, you're one "harmless" update away from being held hostage. Then if they decide to make you pay a subscription fee to export their content, or a per use export fee --what are you going to do then? Or if heaven forbid, DAZ was to go out of business a year or two down the road, what happened to all your content? We just had that happen at work where a vendor of a certain Safety program software shut off it's registration server so there was no way you could re-install the software. When we called them about this -we were encouraged to purchase their "new" software which was three times more expensive and did the exact same thing.When I heard that, we immediately told them that we would no longer be giving them our business and that was that. This is the same thing --you're set up so that you're dependent on DAZ3D and then --like every good pusher will tell you --you jack the price up. Sorry, but I'm not going to stick my head in that noose. I agree with you. DazConnect is bad news all the way around. I can't support the Daz Apologists on this one. Things are never going to be the same

  Tony_Stark ( posted at 9:47PM Sun, 31 January 2016 

I just want to buy stuff from DAZ & use it. I don't want to hunt, search, work for it. Just use it.

  FlagonsWorkshop ( posted at 3:15PM Mon, 01 February 2016 

There is already a massive amount of content that can be used for DAZ, and that will always exist. If DAZ does lock things down, they will face the same problem Poser does - a massive part of their user base will be stuck on 4.8, and less and less new content will be usable. I think they are aware of that issue. Most of the new items being offered still have DRM free options. The other thing DAZ is trying to do is get the file paths locked down to make updating easier. That is getting mixed up with the DRM issues. They aren't the same thing. In short, there is no reason not to move to 4.9. Whether you buy encrypted content is up to you. If you don't like the concept, can't use the product because you want to port it, or any other reason, then don't buy it. Frankly, as long as people are going to speculate, I speculate DAZ is eventually going to drop encryption because it makes the perceived value of their content less. In short there will be decreased volume unless they drop the price of the encrypted items. As of the present, they have pretty much given everything away. It will be interesting to see what happens when thy stop doing that. I guarantee you that encrypting is not going to increase revenue.

  ssgbryan ( posted at 8:26PM Mon, 01 February 2016 

[diogenese19348](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=679633) posted at 7:04PM Mon, 01 February 2016 - [#4252564](#msg4252564) > There is already a massive amount of content that can be used for DAZ, and that will always exist. If DAZ does lock things down, they will face the same problem Poser does - a massive part of their user base will be stuck on 4.8, and less and less new content will be usable. > > I think they are aware of that issue. Most of the new items being offered still have DRM free options. The other thing DAZ is trying to do is get the file paths locked down to make updating easier. That is getting mixed up with the DRM issues. They aren't the same thing. > > In short, there is no reason not to move to 4.9. Whether you buy encrypted content is up to you. If you don't like the concept, can't use the product because you want to port it, or any other reason, then don't buy it. > > Frankly, as long as people are going to speculate, I speculate DAZ is eventually going to drop encryption because it makes the perceived value of their content less. In short there will be decreased volume unless they drop the price of the encrypted items. As of the present, they have pretty much given everything away. It will be interesting to see what happens when thy stop doing that. I guarantee you that encrypting is not going to increase revenue. DAZ isn't going to drop encryption - they have sunk too much time & effort into it. They will ride the plan down in flames, because they never, ever have a plan B. If necessary, they will dump their entire userbase and get a new one - they have done it before. Also pay attention to the words that DAZ has used when talking about encryption "not at this time", "in the future, all content will be delivered by Connect", etc. It is just like the issue of locking down content location - The easiest solution is to simply set standards and enforce them with vendors. Much cheaper and easier than developing a database to track everything. Locking down file paths is worse in my opinion than DRM. That doesn't help when every single vendor has a different way of setting up subfolders under the 1st layer of folder. Currently the user has to remember which vendor made which product because almost everything is hidden inside of a vendor's ego folder. Not to mention that most vendors that sell add-on content for DS aren't smart enough to either insure their add-on product slides into the base product's file structure or the put the name of the base product anywhere in the file structure of of their add-on. See Mad Nurse for Genesis 1 & 2 and it's add-ons for a worst case scenario example.


  Razor42 ( posted at 9:27PM Mon, 01 February 2016 · edited on 9:28PM Mon, 01 February 2016

@ ssgbryan Do you read the responses to your posts a number of things you're pointing out here again have been corrected elsewhere in response to the point last time you made it? It seem you continue to put forward assumptions even if they are proved to be incorrect. >DAZ isn't going to drop encryption - they have sunk too much time & effort into it. They will ride the plan down in flames, because they never, ever have a plan B. If necessary, they will dump their entire userbase and get a new one - they have done it before. Also pay attention to the words that DAZ has used when talking about encryption "not at this time", "in the future, all content will be delivered by Connect", etc. DAZ CONNECT IS NOT ENCRYPTION.... > It is just like the issue of locking down content location - The easiest solution is to simply set standards and enforce them with vendors. Much cheaper and easier than developing a database to track everything. If that is the easiest solution why has not one single marketplace been successful in instigating a standard for either Poser or DS consistantly? Daz connect locks down content paths to allow incremental updates, which many users are glad to see. Honestly there isn't even a consensus among those that want a consensus on where a file belongs in the content library. Again I will ask you a simple question if the solution is so easy to folder structure. **Where is the correct place to put folders for a set of Genesis 3 Eye reflection mat presets that work on both Genesis 3 Male and Genesis 3 Female? Simple question. Simple answer?**


  FlagonsWorkshop ( posted at 9:36AM Tue, 02 February 2016 

The data files (textures and geometry in Poser terms) have always been locked down - if you move them you break the scripts. The scripts themselves can be moved in most cases, and that is how I organize my content. What was always missing was shortcuts, ie pointers to the script files that could be read by the content library pane. Frankly the downside to the system I use is any time a product is updated, I again need to figure out where I put the scripts, because If I don't I now have two versions of the same product in my library, one of which might not work correctly. I would have vastly preferred to leave the scripts alone and used pointers to them. DAZ tries to get around that with the content manager database, but I have been using DAZ a long time, and frankly putting non-daz products in it is a pain, and in the early days DAZ managed to repeatedly break custom categories. From what I am hearing on their boards, they still are. They haven't managed to break my file organization yet. Since they are allowing the use of shortcuts now, at least with their products, I will be happy to leave those scripts where ever the hell they plop them down because I am never going to look at that location. And yes, I still think DAZ will drop encryption if it continually hurts sales. Just as the music business has. Where it doesn't hurt sales it stays in place. I personally cannot see how encrypting 3D content can possibly help sales.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 10:06AM Tue, 02 February 2016 · edited on 10:16AM Tue, 02 February 2016

[diogenese19348](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=679633) posted at 11:02AM Tue, 02 February 2016 - [#4252701](#msg4252701) > The data files (textures and geometry in Poser terms) have always been locked down - if you move them you break the scripts. The scripts themselves can be moved in most cases, and that is how I organize my content. What was always missing was shortcuts, ie pointers to the script files that could be read by the content library pane. > > Frankly the downside to the system I use is any time a product is updated, I again need to figure out where I put the scripts, because If I don't I now have two versions of the same product in my library, one of which might not work correctly. I would have vastly preferred to leave the scripts alone and used pointers to them. > > DAZ tries to get around that with the content manager database, but I have been using DAZ a long time, and frankly putting non-daz products in it is a pain, and in the early days DAZ managed to repeatedly break custom categories. From what I am hearing on their boards, they still are. They haven't managed to break my file organization yet. > > Since they are allowing the use of shortcuts now, at least with their products, I will be happy to leave those scripts where ever the hell they plop them down because I am never going to look at that location. > > And yes, I still think DAZ will drop encryption if it continually hurts sales. Just as the music business has. Where it doesn't hurt sales it stays in place. > > I personally cannot see how encrypting 3D content can possibly help sales. Actually drm didn't get dropped in music because of low sales. Piracy was less of an issue because the mechanism to get music was far easier to get on your device from the iTunes stores for $1 than scour websites for music that could potentially put viruses on your computer. This is true especially when you don't even have to go on the computer to get music, you just search on the device itself and you have the file in about 2 minutes. Video files are still encrypted from the store because the same hasn't occurred due to the size of video and the price of files can still be more expensive than finding a site to download them.

  FlagonsWorkshop ( posted at 10:39AM Tue, 02 February 2016 

[Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 10:23AM Tue, 02 February 2016 - [#4252722](#msg4252722) > > Actually drm didn't get dropped in music because of low sales. Piracy was less of an issue because the mechanism to get music was far easier to get on your device from the iTunes stores for $1 than scour websites for music that could potentially put viruses on your computer. This is true especially when you don't even have to go on the computer to get music, you just search on the device itself and you have the file in about 2 minutes. Video files are still encrypted from the store because the same hasn't occurred due to the size of video and the price of files can still be more expensive than finding a site to download them. It certainly didn't get them more sales which is the point of the whole thing. The problem is this: When you're dealing with physical items, theft costs you every time. If someone shoplifts a DVD from a store, the store is out the money they bought the DVD for. It doesn't matter if they could have sold the DVD to that person if they could have prevented him stealing it, it cost them money either way. The record label on the other hand still made money - they already sold their product to the store. When you are dealing with intellectual property the situation is different. There, the only way deterring theft helps you is if you can get increased sales by making it harder to use your product without paying you since there is no incremental cost for manufacturing copies of the product. Actually the primary target is probably more casual sharing than the warez sites. Your more likely to get an extra sale from someone who is sharing files with his friends via sneaker-net, then you are from someone who is collecting a whole lot of stuff and never using it. So from an accounting standpoint, are the increased sales from files that were once casually shared offsetting the people that no longer want your product due to your encryption or other DRM making it harder to use your product than it is worth to them? And that is why the music industry, who were the first to employ DRM to start with, dropped it. There was no cost-benefit.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 11:37AM Tue, 02 February 2016 · edited on 11:41AM Tue, 02 February 2016

[diogenese19348](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=679633) posted at 12:33PM Tue, 02 February 2016 - [#4252732](#msg4252732) > [Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 10:23AM Tue, 02 February 2016 - [#4252722](#msg4252722) > > > > Actually drm didn't get dropped in music because of low sales. Piracy was less of an issue because the mechanism to get music was far easier to get on your device from the iTunes stores for $1 than scour websites for music that could potentially put viruses on your computer. This is true especially when you don't even have to go on the computer to get music, you just search on the device itself and you have the file in about 2 minutes. Video files are still encrypted from the store because the same hasn't occurred due to the size of video and the price of files can still be more expensive than finding a site to download them. > > It certainly didn't get them more sales which is the point of the whole thing. The problem is this: When you're dealing with physical items, theft costs you every time. If someone shoplifts a DVD from a store, the store is out the money they bought the DVD for. It doesn't matter if they could have sold the DVD to that person if they could have prevented him stealing it, it cost them money either way. The record label on the other hand still made money - they already sold their product to the store. > > When you are dealing with intellectual property the situation is different. There, the only way deterring theft helps you is if you can get increased sales by making it harder to use your product without paying you since there is no incremental cost for manufacturing copies of the product. Actually the primary target is probably more casual sharing than the warez sites. Your more likely to get an extra sale from someone who is sharing files with his friends via sneaker-net, then you are from someone who is collecting a whole lot of stuff and never using it. > > So from an accounting standpoint, are the increased sales from files that were once casually shared offsetting the people that no longer want your product due to your encryption or other DRM making it harder to use your product than it is worth to them? > > And that is why the music industry, who were the first to employ DRM to start with, dropped it. There was no cost-benefit. Actually it did help sales, since the convenience of having access to not only your library but the store in the palm of your hand made it not worth looking online for sites to illegally download songs and made smart phones so popular. Certainly help close the majority of music store chains, except for a few specialty ones that had import sections. And it did increase revenue enough so that Apple could get the music industry to remove DRM from those files.. though they did charge you 30 cents more for the privilege. The explosion of the iphone and other smart devices helped lower piracy over when DRM was instituted over the backlash of the music industry from the napster days.

  FlagonsWorkshop ( posted at 12:16PM Tue, 02 February 2016 

[Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 11:57AM Tue, 02 February 2016 - [#4252746](#msg4252746) > Actually it did help sales, since the convenience of having access to not only your library but the store in the palm of your hand made it not worth looking online for sites to illegally download songs and made smart phones so popular. Certainly help close the majority of music store chains, except for a few specialty ones that had import sections. And it did increase revenue enough so that Apple could get the music industry to remove DRM from those files.. though they did charge you 30 cents more for the privilege. The explosion of the iphone and other smart devices helped lower piracy over when DRM was instituted over the backlash of the music industry from the napster days. The music industry was probably a special case, since they were dragged, kicking and screaming, into the download business. At the time of Napster I don't recall there being any legal way to download MP3's - The music industry was fighting it because the record labels didn't want to lose control of their distribution channels. They were still only interested in selling physical CD's.they didn't care if it was from a brick and mortar store or an online one - but it had to be a CD. The only early exception I can find was Ritmoteca.com which was primarily Latin music. Napster of course brought things to a head simply because at the time they were the all-time-king copyright violator. They also knocked ritmoteca out since they didn't bother paying for their music, and ritmoteca did. Clearly you have to throw some roadblocks in the way of people thinking they can use your intellectual property for free. Also it is clear if charge an arm and a leg for it, they'll find a way around it. I imagine Apple was successful at getting the DRM removed (and the price lowered) at least in part because independent labels and bands managed to break the stranglehold the big labels had on the recording industry. I still have to say that making customers who are already paying you for your product inconvenienced in using it is a sure way to lose sales. I'm not saying DAZ is doing that, I think a lot of the reaction is over "what if" rather than "what is"

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 1:18PM Tue, 02 February 2016 

[diogenese19348](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=679633) posted at 2:12PM Tue, 02 February 2016 - [#4252749](#msg4252749) > [Male_M3dia](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=669572) posted at 11:57AM Tue, 02 February 2016 - [#4252746](#msg4252746) > > Actually it did help sales, since the convenience of having access to not only your library but the store in the palm of your hand made it not worth looking online for sites to illegally download songs and made smart phones so popular. Certainly help close the majority of music store chains, except for a few specialty ones that had import sections. And it did increase revenue enough so that Apple could get the music industry to remove DRM from those files.. though they did charge you 30 cents more for the privilege. The explosion of the iphone and other smart devices helped lower piracy over when DRM was instituted over the backlash of the music industry from the napster days. > > The music industry was probably a special case, since they were dragged, kicking and screaming, into the download business. At the time of Napster I don't recall there being any legal way to download MP3's - The music industry was fighting it because the record labels didn't want to lose control of their distribution channels. They were still only interested in selling physical CD's.they didn't care if it was from a brick and mortar store or an online one - but it had to be a CD. The only early exception I can find was Ritmoteca.com which was primarily Latin music. Napster of course brought things to a head simply because at the time they were the all-time-king copyright violator. They also knocked ritmoteca out since they didn't bother paying for their music, and ritmoteca did. > > Clearly you have to throw some roadblocks in the way of people thinking they can use your intellectual property for free. Also it is clear if charge an arm and a leg for it, they'll find a way around it. > > I imagine Apple was successful at getting the DRM removed (and the price lowered) at least in part because independent labels and bands managed to break the stranglehold the big labels had on the recording industry. > > I still have to say that making customers who are already paying you for your product inconvenienced in using it is a sure way to lose sales. I'm not saying DAZ is doing that, I think a lot of the reaction is over "what if" rather than "what is" Really the things that make devices like the iPhone and services like Steam popular despite the DRM is that there was a balance between protection and ease of use so it didn't feel much like things were being protected. I think that's what DAZ is trying to do in this case. Myself, I prefer to have things without DRM, but it doesn't bother me nor my workflow since so many of my tools and devices I use and own have protection in place, yet I'm still able to not only make my art but use it as well.

  Vorlath ( posted at 10:41PM Mon, 08 February 2016 

I said pretty much the same thing ssgbryan says up above. DAZ will ride this to the end. To me, it looks like they are hurting bad. The only reason they would add encryption is if they're looking for additional sources of revenue. Otherwise, there is no reason to do this. Anyhow, my post at DAZ forums got deleted right away for saying this. Some have said that DAZ will drop DRM if there is no cost-benifit. Incorrect. Other companies have used DRM and they've gone under. In fact, the more they lost revenue, the more they strengthened DRM. And as another user said, DAZ never has a plan B. They will stick to DRM to the end.

  RHaseltine ( posted at 9:40AM Tue, 09 February 2016 

[Vorlath](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=787203) posted at 9:39AM Tue, 09 February 2016 - [#4253979](#msg4253979) > I said pretty much the same thing ssgbryan says up above. DAZ will ride this to the end. To me, it looks like they are hurting bad. The only reason they would add encryption is if they're looking for additional sources of revenue. Otherwise, there is no reason to do this. Anyhow, my post at DAZ forums got deleted right away for saying this. Some have said that DAZ will drop DRM if there is no cost-benifit. Incorrect. Other companies have used DRM and they've gone under. In fact, the more they lost revenue, the more they strengthened DRM. And as another user said, DAZ never has a plan B. They will stick to DRM to the end. Speculation without foundation, however firmly stated, is not fact.

  Vorlath ( posted at 6:33PM Tue, 09 February 2016 

[RHaseltine](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=26159) posted at 8:26PM Tue, 09 February 2016 - [#4254040](#msg4254040) > [Vorlath](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=787203) posted at 9:39AM Tue, 09 February 2016 - [#4253979](#msg4253979) > > > I said pretty much the same thing ssgbryan says up above. DAZ will ride this to the end. To me, it looks like they are hurting bad. The only reason they would add encryption is if they're looking for additional sources of revenue. Otherwise, there is no reason to do this. Anyhow, my post at DAZ forums got deleted right away for saying this. Some have said that DAZ will drop DRM if there is no cost-benifit. Incorrect. Other companies have used DRM and they've gone under. In fact, the more they lost revenue, the more they strengthened DRM. And as another user said, DAZ never has a plan B. They will stick to DRM to the end. > > Speculation without foundation, however firmly stated, is not fact. I wish it was speculation, but it isn't. I've said 2 things. 1. That a business has invested money into something they hope will become a source of income. 2. That said company will continue to use said "something" to the end. Neither one is contestable. For the first point to be false, it would mean that business invested in something that provides them zero revenue and causes zero advantage to their users. That's just nonsense. The second point would normally be challenged on the premise that if said company were to lose money, they would re-evaluate their decision. The problem is that what they implemented is something they believe will generate revenue, or worst case, stop free access to their products. So exactly how will they come to the realization that this "something" is actually the culprit or harmful in any way? So go ahead. Challenge the points I've made. It simply cannot be done in a fashion that makes any logical sense. Now, people making decisions that don't make sense is possible, but that's not something I want to entertain for the time being.

  Razor42 ( posted at 7:51PM Tue, 09 February 2016 · edited on 7:53PM Tue, 09 February 2016

[Vorlath](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=787203) posted at 12:04PM Wed, 10 February 2016 - [#4254173](#msg4254173) > [RHaseltine](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=26159) posted at 8:26PM Tue, 09 February 2016 - [#4254040](#msg4254040) > > > [Vorlath](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=787203) posted at 9:39AM Tue, 09 February 2016 - [#4253979](#msg4253979) > > > > > I said pretty much the same thing ssgbryan says up above. DAZ will ride this to the end. To me, it looks like they are hurting bad. The only reason they would add encryption is if they're looking for additional sources of revenue. Otherwise, there is no reason to do this. Anyhow, my post at DAZ forums got deleted right away for saying this. Some have said that DAZ will drop DRM if there is no cost-benifit. Incorrect. Other companies have used DRM and they've gone under. In fact, the more they lost revenue, the more they strengthened DRM. And as another user said, DAZ never has a plan B. They will stick to DRM to the end. > > > > Speculation without foundation, however firmly stated, is not fact. > > I wish it was speculation, but it isn't. I've said 2 things. > 1. That a business has invested money into something they hope will become a source of income. > 2. That said company will continue to use said "something" to the end. > > Neither one is contestable. For the first point to be false, it would mean that business invested in something that provides them zero revenue and causes zero advantage to their users. That's just nonsense. The second point would normally be challenged on the premise that if said company were to lose money, they would re-evaluate their decision. The problem is that what they implemented is something they believe will generate revenue, or worst case, stop free access to their products. So exactly how will they come to the realization that this "something" is actually the culprit or harmful in any way? > > So go ahead. Challenge the points I've made. It simply cannot be done in a fashion that makes any logical sense. Now, people making decisions that don't make sense is possible, but that's not something I want to entertain for the time being. No problem, > 1. That a business has invested money into something they hope will become a source of income. There are numerous reasons a company or business will outlay funds other than just in the interest of direct financial return. Such as safety, compliance, philanthropy, staff morale, security. For example employing lifesavers to patrol a public pool is an expense that is unlikely to see a direct increase in revenue. You could always rely on other pool users to perform any necessary rescues, resuscitations or just generally pose about. This example falls into safety and compliance which will drive many expenses for a business that will not see a direct increase in income in many cases but may help to avoid costly lawsuits. There are many many examples of where a business will invest resources and finances other than just direct financial return. And I think you will find that in this case it relates more to asset security than an expectation of direct revenue increase. Increased security may have follow on revenue effects but not really direct. > 2. That said company will continue to use said "something" to the end. I actually find this statement to be quite a strange one and not sure what the point of it is, it's a little like saying - it will continue to keep raining, until it stops raining. And its issue mainly seems to lay in your acceptance of the first point as an undeniable truth. History is full of amazing backflips from large companies who have altered or discontinued product lines. In fact there is a concept in marketing known as the product cycle which basically says that every product has a cycle which is Introduction, Growth, maturity and decline. What this means is that a product's viability is measurable by its sales and there is an acceptance that any vibrant business will constantly innovate and change to adapt to market demand or financial pressures. You have asked : So exactly how will they come to the realization that this "something" is actually the culprit or harmful in any way? The same as any conclusive analysis would reveal the facts necessary for decision making, assessment of data leads to conclusions. Conclusion in the absence of data is pure speculation... You made a number of assertions in your first post. For them to be any more than opinion or speculation you would need to back them up with relevant data. The question is do you have any? There is no issue with having an opinion, but suggesting that opinion is fact simply because you believe to be unfortunately doesn't make it so.


  Vorlath ( posted at 7:57PM Tue, 09 February 2016 

None of what you've said about #1 applies to DRM. And in #2, DRM isn't measured in sales. What possible data would they look at? So your entire argument is nothing more than handwaving.

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:28PM Tue, 09 February 2016 · edited on 8:34PM Tue, 09 February 2016

Lol okay I was trying to be polite and point out to you why your post was actually speculation and not a pronouncement of fact. We can look more factually at your statements if that makes you happier. >DAZ will ride this to the end. This in fact is your second point. Of course it is true but what that end is and when it will arrive is the point that is unclear. >To me, it looks like they are hurting bad. You are even declaring this point as speculation by the statement "To me" for it to be accepted as anything more than speculative you would need to provide data to back up the assertion that "they are hurting bad." >The only reason they would add encryption is if they're looking for additional sources of revenue. There are many reasons to add encryption other than looking for additional revenue sources. The most common and overall usage of encryption relates to security and not to diversifying revenue sources. "The primary purpose of encryption is to protect the confidentiality of digital data stored on computer systems or transmitted via the Internet or other computer networks. "[ (1)](http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/encryption) >Some have said that DAZ will drop DRM if there is no cost-benifit. Incorrect. As I said above all business need to continually adapt and modify their business plans and strategy to stay viable. To suggest that any business is incapable of change is purely opinion. For example Daz 3D has itself instituted many major changes in its own business strategies to maintain or increase its viability for example making Daz Studio Pro a free platform. I honestly can not see any evidence to suggest that Daz 3D would not continue this practice in the future if forces required their action. >Other companies have used DRM and they've gone under. Sure that is true. But you're neglecting to mention the fact that the majority of the major media and intellectual property retailers actively use DRM today. Take Disney for instance, DIsney helped create DVD DRM and is actively using many forms of DRM in the market today. In fact looking at the largest and most successful companies DRM is in common usage and would almost be easier to create an argument that DRM is an essential aspect to these corporate giants business plans. >And as another user said, DAZ never has a plan B. Quotations must be verifiably attributed to a reliable source or they are generally considered speculation. >They will stick to DRM to the end. The end of what? Time and space? Its practical application to a viable product? Until such time as a better security measure can be put in place to add security to media assets? >None of what you've said about #1 applies to DRM. And in #2, DRM isn't measured in sales. What possible data would they look at? All of what I said applies to DRM, DRM is not a separate intangible force but part of an overall business plan and in this situation is focusing on media asset security. The question isn't what data would they look at, but what questions are they asking. Does an encrypted product have the same takeup rate as a non encrypted product? Has the encryption made the designed impact on the illegal copying and distribution of products? Is there any significant changes in revenue or rate of sales between the two comparable assets? There are plenty of data points available to Daz 3D to measure the impacts or success of the encryption project. The question is where are the data points for the assertions that you have made here? If there is no data or evidence of their factual basis they are simply your own entitled opinion. Maybe we need to ask what were the question you were asking to reach those conclusions also?


  Vorlath ( posted at 9:29PM Tue, 09 February 2016 

@Razor42: As mentioned, none of your points make any logical sense. DAZ is adding encryption after how many years? And they're doing this for no revenue and no benefit to the end user? This is what you want me to believe? It doesn't add up. And it's really painful to read through. You've yet to indicate what metric DAZ would consider dropping DRM. You can't say what it is because there is no such metric. You try to mention some made up metrics, but none of those things matter to the decision of adding DRM in the first place if you're arguing against what I've said. DRM isn't going to stop piracy and even if it did, the argument that more people would buy their products is in support of MY argument as to why DAZ is doing this. You mention difference in sales. So you agree that DAZ created this as a source of revenue? If not, then you can't use it on both sides of your argument. You can't in one sentence deny that DAZ did it for a new source of revenue and then turn around and use source of revenue as a metric if DRM is impactful or not. This kind of double talk is not helping. And the irony is that the things you mention are actually in support of the very points I made. About plan B, please specify when DAZ has ever gone back on a decision and implemented something different? There is no precedent. Without such a precedent, it is you who are speculating about DAZ's behaviour, not me. And about DAZ sticking with DRM forever. Why would this need explanation? The end is when the company goes out of business. Could be soon, could be a 100 years from now. What is difficult to understand here? And nothing you've said thus far applies to DRM. It is NOT part of a business plan. DAZ does not provide end products. They provide content creation tools and assets. The notion of adding DRM in such a scenario is completely different to the unrelated examples you've mentioned. Again, I'll repeat that my two assertions above are incontestable. Only if you reject logic can you attempt to argue against it. This is how you end up with silly arguments that a company will do something for no revenue and no benefit to the end user. There is a PERCEIVED benefit to DAZ. And if you're suggesting it's not money, you're the one who needs to put your best foot forward and show conclusive proof. In business, saying that a company does something for their bottom line is NEVER speculation. It is the rule. Because if they're doing thing with no benefit to revenue, they will find themselves out of business in short order and my being wrong won't matter anyways because it means DAZ did something so stupid (and knowingly so) that it ran them out of business, something I've said I'm not willing to entertain. So in the future, please try to make more coherent arguments as what you've shown so far is not a productive use of anyone's time.

  Razor42 ( posted at 10:36PM Tue, 09 February 2016 · edited on 10:44PM Tue, 09 February 2016

Sigh... So you want me to argue with you about your speculation and opinion? >DAZ is adding encryption after how many years? And they're doing this for no revenue and no benefit to the end user? This is what you want me to believe? It doesn't add up. And it's really painful to read through. Your generalising... Daz 3D have officially stated numerous times "Why encryption?" It's not rocket science. Though it seems many just don't want to accept the official explanation preferring to speculate endlessly about maybes. The flow on effects of rampant piracy add a cost to any business that trades in media or IP. How large that impact is and the amount of mitigation provided by DRM is debatable. There are many other cost impacts other than direct loss of sale or the likelihood of additional sales. For example in my own experience just this month to date I have received over 12 chargebacks, as an individual, from fraudulent credit card purchases. Each chargeback has an associated real world cost, are you saying there is no cost associated with copyright theft? Are you suggesting it's responsible for a business to not attempt to mitigate against known loss? >You've yet to indicate what metric DAZ would consider dropping DRM. I have indicated, numerous time you just don't want to hear the answer. Daz 3D like any business would react to market or financial changes to best secure the future of their business interests. Every change, in any responsible business is monitored and modified as requirement demands. To do otherwise would be negligent. Daz 3D has at there disposal many data points. > DRM isn't going to stop piracy and even if it did, the argument that more people would buy their products is in support of MY argument as to why DAZ is doing this. Who said anything about DRM stopping piracy? DRM is a mitigative effort to deter piracy. Mitigating loss does not equal new revenue stream, which seems to be what you're suggesting... >About plan B, please specify when DAZ has ever gone back on a decision and implemented something different? There is no precedent. Without such a precedent, it is you who are speculating about DAZ's behaviour, not me. Well let me see, what about Genesis 1 merge sexes to Genesis 2 agreeing that the sexes are better dealt with separately? Good enough? I expect not... In fact I'm actually having a hard time discerning the key points to a lot of your last post to actually raise a challenge. It appears you make a statement and when it's challenged you just change the terms of that statement. For example you stated: >The only reason they would add encryption is if they're looking for additional sources of revenue. When I raised facts that this is not the only use for encryption you ignored the evidence I linked and just changed the stance of the statement without actually adding any more data to give your original statement any more weight, leaving it still as a speculative suggestion. So maybe I will just make a few bullet points. 1. Is Daz 3D placing encryption on some of their products to gauge market reaction and act to mitigate rampant piracy and any associated financial loss? YES 2. Does Daz 3D see encryption as a revenue stream generator? Unlikely, though secondary effects of added security may act to bolster the whole market segment and encourage growth in the creative pool of the business and be a blow to a growing culture of easy access and distribution pirated content. 3. DRM is in the far the majority of uses part of an overall system of security process to protect digital rights of assets. 4. Is usage of DRM an indicator to the long term viability of any business? No, In any business it would be considered as a single aspect of a greater whole. I'm not going to go over why your two certainties are at best generalised possibilities, they would not even be start to be considered as certainties until the variable aspects of the statements have been pinned down to more definite statements, as it appears anything that challenges their validity is discounted as irrelevant with no actual declaration in the statement of what is relevant and no backing of actual evidence. In effect I would be arguing solely against your opinion, which would seem unlikely to change despite any evidence presented. I'm not willing just to argue with your opinion, which you are well and truly entitled to. I'm agreeing with Richard that most things you are raising are speculation and your own opinion at best.


  Tony_Stark ( posted at 7:59AM Wed, 10 February 2016 

Oh my gosh. This type of debate is useless.

  FlagonsWorkshop ( posted at 11:56AM Thu, 11 February 2016 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 11:54AM Thu, 11 February 2016 - [#4254194](#msg4254194) > >About plan B, please specify when DAZ has ever gone back on a decision and implemented something different? There is no precedent. Without such a precedent, it is you who are speculating about DAZ's behaviour, not me. > > Well let me see, what about Genesis 1 merge sexes to Genesis 2 agreeing that the sexes are better dealt with separately? Good enough? I expect not... Hmmm... seems to me going from charging for DAZ 4.0 to making it free was an awful big one. Yep, I might even call it a precedent.

  GeofiX ( posted at 10:44AM Mon, 15 February 2016 

"Hmmm... seems to me going from charging for DAZ 4.0 to making it free was an awful big one. Yep, I might even call it a precedent." Wasn't that back in the days of Dan Farr DAZ? - If so it isn't a precedent for the New DAZ management. I'm just curious as to who was in charge when that happened...

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:19PM Mon, 15 February 2016 · edited on 8:25PM Mon, 15 February 2016

[GeofiX](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=347967) posted at 12:23PM Tue, 16 February 2016 - [#4255173](#msg4255173) > "Hmmm... seems to me going from charging for DAZ 4.0 to making it free was an awful big one. Yep, I might even call it a precedent." > > Wasn't that back in the days of Dan Farr DAZ? - If so it isn't a precedent for the New DAZ management. > I'm just curious as to who was in charge when that happened... Well, yes Dann Farr was still at Daz 3D at the time Daz Studio Pro was made available for free (Feb 2012), but was no longer the acting CEO of the business, at that point the still current CEO of Daz 3D Jim Thornton had been in the role for a number of months (Nov 2011). So you could probably call this one of the first major changes implemented by the "New DAZ management". Also its worth noting, a number of the current management team were actually involved with Daz 3D with Dann Farr as CEO for numerous years. So "New" may not be an entirely accurate term for the changes to the management team that have ocurred over the years. Here is an article about the change to make DS and other software available for free with comment from both Dann and Jim from 2012. And secondly an article from 2011 announcing the new CEO and CMO [(1)](http://www.cgchannel.com/2012/02/daz-3d-why-we-gave-our-software-away-for-free/) [(2)](https://news.creativecow.net/story/867550) Or if you would like a long and rambling thread full of speculation, cynicism and people talking about "the announced change that are going to ruin Daz forever!!!!" You can try this Rendo thread in the Poser forum from 2012 [(3)](https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2843540&page_number=1) which was started after Brian Howell announced that a "Game Changer" was about to be announced by Daz 3D CEO Jim Thornton, Brian Howell who is today Daz3D's current VP of Production and has been with Daz 3D since 2007 which was 4 years before Dann left. Parts of the old linked thread are quite an interesting read with some very obvious bias, overt cynicism and what ended up being some far from accurate predictions made by some members in regards to what the change will mean to the future of the industry. Funny the echoes that still ring out to this day from some that seem to have been getting it very wrong for years, but see no need to change their tact...


  GeofiX ( posted at 11:35PM Mon, 15 February 2016 

I'll take your word about it, after all you work for them.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 5:15AM Tue, 16 February 2016 

[GeofiX](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=347967) posted at 6:15AM Tue, 16 February 2016 - [#4255285](#msg4255285) > I'll take your word about it, after all you work for them. Remember the new TOS, now. Let's not argue facts with personal attacks.

  TylerZambori ( posted at 1:38PM Tue, 16 February 2016 

So is DAZ doing away with the content in zip format? Is there a specific date for this? Is it going to be retroactive, or just applied to new content? Thanks!

  RHaseltine ( posted at 3:22PM Tue, 16 February 2016 

[TylerZambori](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=478859) posted at 3:19PM Tue, 16 February 2016 - [#4255353](#msg4255353) > So is DAZ doing away with the content in zip format? Is there a specific date for this? > Is it going to be retroactive, or just applied to new content? > > Thanks! Content that is currently available via DIM will continue to be available via DIM while there are enough people using it to make the servers worth maintaining, and will not be encrypted. There has been no absolute commitment to making new content encrypted-only - so far only a few items, freebies, conditional freebies, or items heavily discounted with other purchases, have been released in encrypted form.

  Jules53757 ( posted at 3:26PM Tue, 16 February 2016 

Well, today I found a freebie, Canoes, that is "Encrypted Daz Connect" only :thinking:


Ulli


"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!"

  LPR001 ( posted at 7:55PM Tue, 16 February 2016 

@Jules53757 I'm thinking it should be good for another 10 pages LOL. Daz has done this with 2 or 3 items that were also freebies about a month ago during some sale.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:22PM Tue, 16 February 2016 

[GeofiX](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=347967) posted at 1:16PM Wed, 17 February 2016 - [#4255285](#msg4255285) > I'll take your word about it, after all you work for them. Really no need to take my word for it, if you read my post I provided references to all of my statements, as they weren't "my" opinion, they were statements based on primary sources...


  RHaseltine ( posted at 4:35PM Wed, 17 February 2016 

DAZ_Steve has just(ish) posted to announce that all encrypted content will be made unencrypted twelve months after its release - people who bought early will be able to update to the unencrypted version as with any product update, people who buy after the twelve-month mark will get the unencrypted version on purchase.

  gate ( posted at 8:29AM Thu, 18 February 2016 

Well I will try my luck in here as I tried to write my personal impression in the DAZ forums but it seems there unless it does not go in direction sporting there ideas that Comments are censured or removed. I realized the past month's that content for Daz or Poser have drastically decreased there amount, it seems that the Content Creators are loosing there motivation meaning that there are also less potential customers. Also I realize that the quality of Poser/Ds have decreased Drastically. I guess it is all caused through the Drastic aggressive changes of Daz stores justifying there acts as fight against piracy. I can't agree with there arguments as for me it looks more like a desperate act to gain control over the market why do I get to this conclusion? Well as a Content creator " Artist " I know how much Time energy I have to spend to get a few Products out and naturally the Stores get a big part of the Cake , regimentations in Stores are set up as a rent space for Content sales but Vendors Creators are treated like Employees. Rental is 50% of the sale but the artist has the whole work and is the owner of the sold creation all this is ok as every Individual can decide him self if he wants to play the game or not. To the Point : what is Daz doing well he tries to secure hes income respect-less to what content creators think about it taking controll over content that does not belong to him. If I rent a store in a City selling vegetables that I Plant I rent some space to sell my stuff but I am my own boss about my products, In the stores it sure is mentioned to work this way but it is not treated that way especially not at DAZ. Com-paired to a Year ago it seems that only half of creations reach the store platforms and it seems to me that less great creators are willing to keep on playing that game. So actually all this stff about encryption does not seem to be to support costumers , protect Creators from piracy , either to prevent Piracy , it is only in the Interest of the Store to grow and secure there income. makes me think who is the Pirate ?

  GetCheeky ( posted at 7:04PM Thu, 18 February 2016 

_my personal impression in the DAZ forums but it seems there unless it does not go in direction sporting there ideas that Comments are censured or removed_ I also saw this going on. Between this and the DRM content, it's very disrespectful to those of us who have incorporated 3D art into our businesses.

  TylerZambori ( posted at 7:54PM Thu, 18 February 2016 

[RHaseltine](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=26159) posted at 5:53PM Thu, 18 February 2016 - [#4255601](#msg4255601) > DAZ_Steve has just(ish) posted to announce that all encrypted content will be made unencrypted twelve months after its release - people who bought early will be able to update to the unencrypted version as with any product update, people who buy after the twelve-month mark will get the unencrypted version on purchase. I don't get the point of it then?

  Razor42 ( posted at 7:54PM Thu, 18 February 2016 · edited on 8:07PM Thu, 18 February 2016

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 12:34PM Fri, 19 February 2016 - [#4255731](#msg4255731) > Well I will try my luck in here as I tried to write my personal impression in the DAZ forums but it seems there unless > it does not go in direction sporting there ideas that Comments are censured or removed. > > I realized the past month's that content for Daz or Poser have drastically decreased there amount, it seems that the Content Creators > are loosing there motivation meaning that there are also less potential customers. Also I realize that the quality of Poser/Ds have decreased > Drastically. > I guess it is all caused through the Drastic aggressive changes of Daz stores justifying there acts as fight against piracy. > I can't agree with there arguments as for me it looks more like a desperate act to gain control over the market > why do I get to this conclusion? > Well as a Content creator " Artist " I know how much Time energy I have to spend to get a few Products out and > naturally the Stores get a big part of the Cake , regimentations in Stores are set up as a rent space for Content sales > but Vendors Creators are treated like Employees. Rental is 50% of the sale but the artist has the whole work and is the > owner of the sold creation all this is ok as every Individual can decide him self if he wants to play the game or not. > To the Point : > what is Daz doing well he tries to secure hes income respect-less to what content creators think about it > taking controll over content that does not belong to him. If I rent a store in a City selling vegetables that I Plant > I rent some space to sell my stuff but I am my own boss about my products, In the stores it sure is mentioned > to work this way but it is not treated that way especially not at DAZ. > Com-paired to a Year ago it seems that only half of creations reach the store platforms and it seems to me > that less great creators are willing to keep on playing that game. > So actually all this stff about encryption does not seem to be to support costumers , protect Creators > from piracy , either to prevent Piracy , it is only in the Interest of the Store to grow and secure there income. > makes me think who is the Pirate ? That's is an interesting argument, a change that primarily benefits PA's is making PA want to leave the market? Also I think you will find the release rate at Daz 3D of products has increased not declined. The amount of PA's selling Daz Studio content has increased and not declined. I am actually a PA at Daz3D and I can personally say a lot of what you have said here is well and truly miles from the mark. The sales agreement is in no way similar to renting a store. The equivalent of that would be the marketplace stating you need to pay $1000 a month regardless of the income of your store. So if you only earn $600 in sales you need to give it all to the store plus add an amount of debt per month while you continue to trade. In effect making sales a cost to the seller not to the market and forcing creatives to continue to produce or find the cost of their store means they need to withdraw. I have never actually spoken to a Daz PA that doesn't feel that Daz 3D is entitled to every penny of the 50% of sales they take and over the years I have spoken to many including a lot of the major names in the industry. The %50 share is in exchange for **their**(The marketplaces) site hosting, marketing and sales efforts, Promotion of new releases as well as back catalogue sales, Payment services, Customer security, PA Perks, Platform development etc etc. The fact that you consistently refer to Daz PA's as Vendors seems to indicate your talking from speculation and not experience. As a PA at Daz I can actually say from my experience most of what your saying is unfounded and seems to be mostly an effort at smearing for some unstated reason or gripe. There is an old saying in the business world - %50 of a something is worth more than 100% of nothing...


  gate ( posted at 6:24AM Fri, 19 February 2016 

Well I agree that the amount of Sellers Increased at DAZ a rate of people who just swaped from one store to another. but you have to agree that allot of great Creators stopped with there contributions. My point is not on how much the Store gains as Long a Vendor is agrees with this kind of system it is ok everyone can decide on hes own how he likes to market hes product. I am many years in the Artist scene my creations Never have been Pirated Never been shared, no matter where I sold em or gave them as freebies. you might ask your self why? it is because I respect either side and don't make a big deal about these issues.it is how you get respect for what you Create. as for the marketing there are other solutions to support Artist rather then to head for a Million heavy Industry . I give you a sample ! I place 4 products into a store like Daz sales for 3000$ in a month my contribution is 1500$ ( Experienced Fact ) now my costs are 1500$ lets say there are an average of 20 vendors that reach this amount it would be a contribution of 30'000 a month take the 1000$ away remaining 29'000$ For the store. But actually it is not my Point , it rather disgusts me to see to what it leads. it all leads to encrypt files , take control of a market , and worst of all trying to make such concurrence to other Products that these have no more place in the market. Daz Studio Vs Poser , we should not forget what the root was of this Market ! Concerning my Experience , I would say with the sites I am running the People Artists I support not trying to ripp em off I sure have enough experience. I don't gain from those who wish to get a little money from all the hours they spend on there creations I earn from what I do my self. And I even offer to artists help to establish them selves into the market without cost the artist ends up to having a 100% gain from hes Creations. A shake hand method ! you will ask your self where is the Profit , well the Profit is that Every Creator sells better as there are Many ( Mall system ). The next question would be , If Daz goes that far to encrypt files what will happen next how far will it go ? will They gain full control, Will Renderosity Rdna Ec. Be forced to fallow ? just to be able to contribute in Daz Studio. Will the Creator other stores have to agree to new stricter Roles based on DS and start to make agreement contracts ?

  Razor42 ( posted at 7:13AM Fri, 19 February 2016 

>I am many years in the Artist scene my creations Never have been Pirated Never been shared, no matter where I sold em or gave them as freebies. you might ask your self why? it is because I respect either side and don't make a big deal about these issues.it is how you get respect for what you Create. So you're suggesting respecting pirates protects against piracy? ... >The next question would be , If Daz goes that far to encrypt files what will happen next how far will it go ? will They gain full control, Will Renderosity Rdna Ec. Be forced to fallow ? just to be able to contribute in Daz Studio. Will the Creator other stores have to agree to new stricter Roles based on DS and start to make agreement contracts ? This has been covered many times, you're basing a suggestion of what may happen on speculation. Daz Encryption doesn't affect any of these stores. Daz official comment was **"Will products from stores other than Daz 3D keep working? Products from other stores will continue working the way they did prior to Daz Studio 4.9. These products do benefit from features that have been added by Daz Studio 4.9, but they cannot benefit from any of the Daz Connect specific features."**


  gate ( posted at 7:48AM Fri, 19 February 2016 

Quote : So you're suggesting respecting pirates protects against piracy? ... it is to respect the Individual you never know who sits on the other end of the machine it might be your best friend your Nabor or your Wife. 99% of people who own a computer can be accused of Pirated stuff "even on your machine" if there would be a control for sure something could be found that are not Legitimate! could be a song a clip a movie a game a youtube ect ect even a text you have copied on Google "we all are Pirates of some sort". so I would say why accuse others if you might have something your self on your machine. Your even guilty if you did not know that you have it . "I am not a white sheep and I think either are you". As I stated it is Everyones own decision on what he supports and sure it might be a speculation just like Daz speculates on Encryptions. but I don't think that I am wrong , if customers, Creators fallow, it will state the act ! And Daz will build up upon that system , if Creators Consumers don't fallow, Daz will be forced to drop that idea. things are not carved in stone the costumer is still king and it will be on there decision on how things will be treated. I see that Encrypted stuff still as suggestion , but I also see that allot of costumers are offend by the Idea, feeling pushed into something they actually dislike.

  gate ( posted at 8:33AM Fri, 19 February 2016 · edited on 8:37AM Fri, 19 February 2016

Quote 2 : So you're suggesting respecting pirates protects against piracy? ... Additionally: I honestly was hoping that a few of my Products would be Pirated and spread over the net. It would be free advertisement and in some sort would say " that product is really cool " it would attract allot of attention ( Well it never happen ) so sometimes I ask my self is my Product not good enough to be Pirated, or am I to much respected ? trying to figure out what I may do better. Allot of great artists gotten famous this way , if a song Reaches the top it gets ripped all over and it is what makes it even greater at the end. so every situation can be taken as advantage. Oh and adding a little drama to it " They pirated me " will get additional attention to the Product this drops the next question , Using encryption against Piracy? is it really constructive or rather Destructive for the small Poser/DS market. advertising can be very expensive and not always effective. Also I think that Honest people who really Plan to use a Product will buy that one, the others just keep on collecting Dust-catcher addicted to Collect and never really use.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 12:21PM Fri, 19 February 2016 · edited on 12:27PM Fri, 19 February 2016

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 1:04PM Fri, 19 February 2016 - [#4256035](#msg4256035) > Quote : So you're suggesting respecting pirates protects against piracy? ... > > it is to respect the Individual you never know who sits on the other end of the machine it might be your best friend your Nabor or your Wife. > Can you be more specific on how to give that respect? My first product was on sold on Poseraddicts years ago when I started selling and way before I submitted anything to DAZ. It sold rather blah, which as a new vendor I understood but it was good to get some grocery money. ;) After about a year or so I put it on sale for $1.99 and I kept it there (it may even be that price now at that site). It was pirated. I was rather shocked. And this is a small site, not DAZ. To be honest, I don't think respect has anything to do with whether an item is pirated or not. It doesn't matter if a store decides to protect their investment. Things are shared if they are perceived to have the value to bring people to share other items with them. The thing is respect work both ways, and it's not always DAZ vs the world. I remember I had just started learning how to render and I made an erotic render which I was happy about posting. I put it on a gallery and about a week later, it end up in a Pay-for-view gallery. Where exactly is the respect from someone takes the work that wasn't even selling for their own gain? There is no respect, so I don't think your argument holds any water.

  Rawnrr ( posted at 1:23PM Fri, 19 February 2016 

Piracy is not marketing. Marketing encourages people to go and buy products....Piracy gives the stolen work away. Marketing is directed by the product creator who has control over which market it hits.....Piracy gives stolen work to people who dont want to buy. People who steal the products and share the products are not respecting anyone DAZ works hard to protect their PA's because they respect the hard work that we put into our products. Customers respect PA's by continuing to purchase the products we make. PA's respect their customers by continuing to sell their products at very reasonable prices, and ensure that the customer always gets the best quality work that they can put out. THAT is a healthy work cycle. And for the record.....The PA rouster at DAZ is growing not shrinking..the customer market at daz is growing not shrinking (as I jumped yet another tax bracket with this income tax filing). The whole industry is getting stronger...and PA's feel safer knowing the site they sell at has their back and is working hard for both protecting them and growing their sales.

  gate ( posted at 2:36PM Fri, 19 February 2016 

Well then we all should check our Computers very well Don't we? it is not all about Poser or DS. actually it is not that you have to give respect to Piracy or support it it was not met to be understood this way, but finding a way of Balance and get respected for what you do , not by whining ( Ohh I got Pirated ) that is not the solution and either is to Encrypt stuff, this will bring out a new Hack hero and he is gonna get the name not Daz not you! How do you act if you in the dark woods surrounded by Wolf's? Many great Producers tried to protect , but have they gained? Lets imagine that the store is a castle with a King but that king just wants more gold he will cut the heads of the farmers because they steal a piece of bread not asking why did he steal calling him a Pirate trying to Protect his kingdom. but one day that king would fail , it is known in history how things end and it always ends the same way. Our parents were reading us fairy tales that actually were leading us to the right way. I can imagine that if I see the aspect of a Pirate I would think he is some sort of Robin Hood stealing from the rich giving to the Poor. But like I said we are in times of digital floods, most just collect even if they never will find the time to use it . you tell me "the one who has been pirated" , have you ever seen a Product a render or anything that has been made out of your stolen goods? I would not think so ! as those who stole never used it , and if it ever was used then by one who honestly purchased your Product. back to the Encryption as I get the impression that this all leads to other discussions. So what do you think if stuff will get encrypted how long will it take until it will be cracked ? it is like provocating wild animals to open the chest with the bloody meat. and if one will do it might get even worse then it ever was before! Can you be honest ? tell me how much songs movies clips have you on your machine that are not Legitimate ? if there is just one then the one who has it would not be any better then the one he is pointing the finger at! But naturally I agree the strategy is sure to be handled with respect as how said the Industry just wants to protect the Pa's Interests and make there sales grow. I do not think for the ones who go that way do wrong as everyone is free on how he wishes to Market hes Products. I just wonder if it is the right way after reading allot about concerned costumers and also concerned Creators. Either way may be the right way and either the wrong it is just the way of aspect.

  FlagonsWorkshop ( posted at 3:51PM Fri, 19 February 2016 

"Can you be honest ? tell me how much songs movies clips have you on your machine that are not Legitimate ? " I can answer that. Pretty close to zero. And that which exists on my machine that is not legitimate I don't use and haven't bothered getting around to deleting. I do believe in trying before you buy, and that may include getting music from artists I haven't heard before to listen to it. And if I like it, I make sure I pay for it. As well as any 3-D content, programming tools, etc. Including stuff I have picked up from shareCG and wilmap. Why? Because if you like something, and want to see more of it, the artist needs to be supported. Or they can't create more art. Which means I have sent some money Beat578's way through the donation button simply because I'd like to see him do more stuff, it has value to me. Now someone who picks up things through pirate sites probably doesn't care much about the art or the artist or they would be paying for it. The people creating this stuff are not huge corporations, and if you steal something from DAZ by picking it up free you're only stealing half of it from DAZ. What I am not buying is any argument saying that putting DRM on an item will increase sales, never have. I don't begrudge someone trying it though as long as it doesn't get in the way of how I use it. Now clearly any PA at DAZ who is not using special tools (like the HD ones) is perfectly capable of bypassing DAZ entirely, and using any other store, or setting up their own site. The reason they are at DAZ is DAZ provides services that in their mind is worth that 50% cut, and those services may well include copyright protection, whether through DRM or legal means. What DAZ has said is that pursuing the pirate sites legally isn't working now, which is why they went to DRM, and I believe that. I don't think the DRM will work either. But I don't for a moment believe DAZ is going to DRM either to lock in Vendors, or lock out other legitmate sites, and you have given me no reasonable argument to think you are right on that one.

  gate ( posted at 4:55PM Fri, 19 February 2016 

I do not think either that he will Lock in vendors or really try to reserve the whole market to him self it would be like choping of a feeding hand , in a way I like to be a little dramatic at times resulting that people let there masks fall. that is my way. sure now days everyone is able to build hes own little corner in the net or join in groups new store communities , out of experience I sure understand that creators go to Daz or be in the large stores , and it is honestly worth the contribution as they are grown community. the other way is the hard way, to build alone there is no future or not a large one unless having a great Artist name. normally the costumer leads the way that will be, not the creator not the Store, we just adapt it to the needs of the ones who feed us. time to work a little on my Egyptian brain mask that I'm creating :)

  gate ( posted at 7:32PM Fri, 19 February 2016 

and oh for once thank you to the mods not to have deleted censured my dramatics , it seems things have changed I mean in a positive way in these forums , Not being personally attacked or discriminated for hes opinions I guess others could learn.

  wheatpenny ( posted at 8:09PM Fri, 19 February 2016 

We only delete things that violate the TOS. Your posts didn't.




Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

“It cannot be that the people should grow in grace unless they give themselves to reading. A reading people will always be a knowing people. ”

― John Wesley

  LPR001 ( posted at 1:52AM Sat, 20 February 2016 

@gate agree with wheatpenny it is within the guidelines. You have put forward a view that might not win too many fans on a website that houses vendors that work their butts off on their creations and their customers scrimping and saving to the buy content which is supporting them so you probably could expect the view to be challenged. Of course this will be done with intellect and rat cunning as they are pretty skillful at it without the need for personal attacks. It is the Daz forum and it is what it is. We try to keep it friendly. As for your content not getting knocked off by the pirates in the context of your opinion I can't say I have ever seen that raised on a forum before. So it is difficult to draw on previous experience. If it was me and I can only speak for myself, If the product was 100% my content and I shared the same view as you I would upload a couple zips to hedge my bets. No one need ever know. That said there a a ton of safe places to upload your content and gain a reputation for your work. If you have a store and your free products carry the info in the readme and you gain a good following they will track you down to browse and possibly buy your paid items. tbh The day I have to turn to a bunch of thieves to evaluate my worth in anything I do will be the day I change that career.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  gate ( posted at 4:50AM Sat, 20 February 2016 

Well thank you , :) Actually it would not be my intention to get Fans I am Artist , placing comments that are not my personal opinion would offend my personality. evaluating the strategy to Place out a product that needs to cover the costs of creation you need allot of hits, no matter from who. a sample : When i place something out I get up to 1500 hits within 2-3 hours actually the faster the better from these 1500 hits you might get 5-10 potential buyers eventually one admirer that collects. If there is to many Roles restriction Codes Encryption Ect you might loose a whole bunch of Interests especially newcomers if the application cant be learned within a short period of time. the intention of my arguments are not to push down any other Store or creator rather contrary as the more that support a Product no matter where they might do it the better it is for the marketing it generates potential Costumers and new Creators and new Pirates. In the case of Daz in my opinion is that it is rather contra productive. _______________________________________________________ I give you a sample for a Limitation Eula in a Product: Limitations: This product may be used in all of your commercial or non-commercial renders. I am aware that some will share my Creations and nothing about that, well as long as you just have them as Dust Catcher in your runtime! Most just collect and never Really use the stuff! But if you Intend to use the Renders for your work, Comics Public Images or what ever it would just be fair to get a legal License and Buy the Product. Thank you for supporting and buying my Product _______________________________________________________ the Sample shows a tolerance for the product you sell ! the ones found in almost all sold Products are very restrictive almost threating people , Like if you do then we will ! all this gets more and more restrictive as the time goes by because the creator thinks that he deserves more then he gets not considering that a market might grow and that floods of Products give more choices to be consumed , but not always generates more buyers. Considering such an issue the Creator Store tries to blame a Pirate that the Income is not Increasing! not considering the fact that these would not Purchase the Product even if it was not Pirated allot are not willing to Invest into Dust catchers.

  Rawnrr ( posted at 6:21AM Sat, 20 February 2016 

Thing is...while it is great to have theories as to what you think is or is not a good idea, DAZ has the experience. They have been playing this market for a long time, they are the most successful of the sites, and they are the only site that is actively bringing in new customers. They really do know what works and what doesnt to grow the market. I have not always agreed with their decisions either,and have had more than a few debates over their plans. But in the end I cannot argue with their results. I have been with them for a long time, I have personally met with the old management and with the new, and can tell you that the new management really has a strong vision for growth, and professionals with real world experience guiding their decisions. They can see beyond just this community and into newer and exciting markets all as avenues for growth. So while our opinions on this or that may occasionally differ, they do have the skill to know what is what and what the communities require for growth. ....and I can tell ya.....dealing with pirates is not a way to grow ones name or reputation. Reputations are made by creating quality products, and marketing them to customers who appreciate them. If as you say, pirates simply download and never use the products, there is obviously no appreciation, and no customer......and do you really think they care about who made the product?...come on...of course not. So Daz's plan to market to an active and growing customer base really does make alot more sense.

  gate ( posted at 7:33AM Sat, 20 February 2016 · edited on 7:46AM Sat, 20 February 2016

Quote: ....and I can tell ya.....dealing with pirates is not a way to grow ones name or reputation. Reputations are made by creating quality products, and marketing them to customers who appreciate them. If as you say, pirates simply download and never use the products, there is obviously no appreciation, and no customer......and do you really think they care about who made the product?...come on...of course not. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well that sure is something to consider thinking about . there are some arguments about " do they care Who made it" I think they do ! as for in most cases things do not seem as they would steal the product pretending they made it . it rather shows up with an original Promo and a credit for the creator and the store, what brings us back to Free publicity. so why if they Steal would they give Credit and make publicity for the product on where it is possible to purchase or get? Assuming a robbery of jewelery I don't think that the Robbers would go out and say hey I got it from this guy and here is the a dress that would not make any sense and brings me a little into a conflict. I think that allot of these places are gold mines for the industry! they grow fast get many members hit the top of the charts, they get sold to industries to place adds as to spend 10'000$ for 200'000 hits might be worth more then to place it into TV for a million a minute. but the argument is not that Sharing or pirating should be supported the argument is does an encryption really prevent it or does it put it more at risc? as I said there are allot of Hackers just waiting for such opportunities.( I guess they see it as a challenge ) And why did DAZ first state we will encrypt and just short after they state it will be just for a Year then you might do with it what you want. this would mean that they sure what to get there idea to live no matter what but realized that it is a RISC. _______________________________________________________________________________________ A statement like this one Quote :Thornton and the team “We have great investors, the best products in the industry and a laser-focused vision of where we are going.” _______________________________________________________________________________________ this means that plans are made years before they show a Political tactic to get costumers used to there ides. not really stating "our Artists offer the best products in the Industry and we have a laser focused vision on how to Promote them " the statement tells me they take the whole credit not even mentioning that it is not theres but that they just represent the products of the Artists the Creator remains the original copyright holder and should be treated this way.

  poisinivy ( posted at 10:11AM Sat, 20 February 2016 · edited on 10:15AM Sat, 20 February 2016

To all my Daz friend here. I wanna thank you all for the support & love you have giving me over they many years I have been here at renderosity. But with the recent development of new TOS & no off site linking & Politically correct forum rules. I decided its best I leave renderosity. Because I am anything but Politically correct so it would be just a matter of time before I would violate your stupid rules anyway. So I have pulled all my free 3d content & ani blocks, and zbursh morphs out of rendersoty freebie section.& just left my gallery for now. . I am sorry if this inconvenience any of you members. I have adored my time here and my friendships I have made. But i feel if I can not link share to my own website or sites I share my work like youtube or facebook.&/or be able to speak freely about the "ALL" things that interest me in 3d whether they be political or anything out side the box of rendersoity TOS then there is no longer reason to come here anymore. To me Art is the purest form of freedom of expression . which I feel is not longer honored at this web site when renders of Political Satire and off color jokes can be removed because it might hurt someone feelings. or that one person(a moderator) may not like a comment and just say its not being politically correct for the forums & remove it, is going way to far for me to accept. I would post a link to where you could find my new home for my content But that will be against the TOS here so from now on you'll need to GUESS where everyone is keeping there free content. . I am sure it will not matter to some of you or "the I agree with everything Posse" that I have left here. But be assured I am am not the only member that has pulled out our free 3d content because of this new tos rule. Renderosity new rules are just a little to fascist for me to agree with. I am to old to deal with Politically correctness when Art is Expression and sharing of all ideas and opinions, not just the ones you like. . Some art is meant to be thought provoking and something even controversial . which is no longer accepted at this web site and a real shame. If you reply to my comment I will not be replying back. The opinions of those running this site no longer matter to me with it comes to this issue with the politically correct TOS rules. So I am retiring my renderosity account and will no longer be supporting or purchasing any more content from renderosity. May you all have have a great life here at rendersosity and I will miss you greatly. & even perhaps I will see you in another website that is less restrictive & believe in the freedom of expression of all art forms. So I will not be back until some major changes have happen to bring this community back together like it once was. I do hope the idiot that thought this stupid rule up relies Artist like me are what pay your salary. so take some time to think about that so you don't have to wonder why when your sales have dropped . Take care & God bless. Sincerely Ivy Summers

  Rawnrr ( posted at 1:35PM Sat, 20 February 2016 

Gate...your logic hurts my brain. There is no "Free Publicity" if people are stealing your product and giving it away...that is all pure loss. No matter how you try to turn that around it will never be anything good. Good luck with your products...you can market them how you see fit. But for me....I am glad to have mine marketed to actual customers who actually respect the product and the people making them.

  gate ( posted at 4:20PM Sat, 20 February 2016 

:) Marketing is a Ruff business that is for sure , actually you on your own with it. There is no right no wrong, just sides ! I usually am on my own and I like it this way, I offer others to learn to do it on there own , being free not guided by Guidelines from Stores Not being guided by Pirates and especially not letting others getting the laurels for what They made. Taking laurels from Artists sure would be more Criminal then a Little Pirate. and Reading what I wrote before, what I made Never has been Pirated , it might be caused through my Opinion about things and how I treat them . well actually even if it would one day then I would not even use that hard Word "Pirate" I would just say it got shared. but if someone would state my Creations in a way Like daz made in hes statements then I would say I got Pirated. But either of ever happen and never will so I just let it be a Speculation.

  Razor42 ( posted at 6:18PM Sat, 20 February 2016 · edited on 6:21PM Sat, 20 February 2016

>Marketing is a Ruff business that is for sure , actually you on your own with it. There is no right no wrong, just sides! Hmm, I would suggest you google "marketing disasters". You may not see right or wrong, but you may see 8 figure settlements.


  Razor42 ( posted at 6:54PM Sat, 20 February 2016 

>Reading what I wrote before, what I made Never has been Pirated , it might be caused through my Opinion about things and how I treat them This is a pretty strange concept it seems a little like saying, "You know the bank robbers must really respect me and have taken note of my understanding of their desperate plight, because the branch where I do my banking has never been robbed since I started banking there." I hope when you read back, you also noted how unrealistic this premise sounds. Seems like you believe in the concept of honour among thieves? Sadly I have personally seen a junkie punch his girlfriend square in the face because she presumed to light the last cigarette in the pack without his consent. I labour under no such delusions. So people do, some don't. Unfortunately there is no Pirate's Code in realms of software piracy, everything is fair game. I wonder what you think of the practice of stealing content and planting malware in it for fellow "Sharers" to enjoy? >I would not even use that hard Word "Pirate" I would just say it got shared. Well shared would be an entirely inaccurate term, shared implies permission is given for the "sharing" of the file. Piracy indicates an unauthorised act of software or data copyright infringement, including unauthorised sharing, copying and redistribution in breach of the associated EULA or licensing conditions. If you don't wish to apply licensing protection to your own content then you're free to release it under a license agreement that allows for sharing or redistribution if that's what you prefer. So you have a place of marketing genius, commission free sales for third parties and an impregnable bastion from piracy. Pls then why don't you share the name of this place?


  gate ( posted at 7:44PM Sat, 20 February 2016 

Quote: So you have a place of marketing genius, commission free sales for third parties and an impregnable bastion from piracy. Pls then why don't you share the name of this place? ________________________________________________________________________________ Well I had the place as signature on my renders Providence of the Images just like a copyright signature but it seemed not to be allowed to have such a signature on renders. you can imagine what happen ( Renders had to be removed from Renderosity ) and yes there are amazing freebies and some good stuff :) but placing a link in here would be against the roles in here . Quote : I wonder what you think of the practice of stealing content and planting malware in it for fellow "Sharers" to enjoy? that is really interesting , and wold be if we analyze this concept a great method to fight piracy ! probably better then encrypting files , fight them with there own weapons. A pirated Creator pulls up hes sword takes what belongs to him with a modified Pyton script that kills any runtime and placing it on such a site. well this also would be Strategic and may be effective. but not sure if it would boomerang! self-justice I would call this :)

  Razor42 ( posted at 7:46PM Sat, 20 February 2016 

You can just say the name, I can use google. Linking is against the TOS, but you can just say the name.


  Male_M3dia ( posted at 8:06PM Sat, 20 February 2016 · edited on 8:11PM Sat, 20 February 2016

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 9:02PM Sat, 20 February 2016 - [#4256363](#msg4256363) > Quote: So you have a place of marketing genius, commission free sales for third parties and an impregnable bastion from piracy. Pls then why don't you share the name of this place? > ________________________________________________________________________________ > Well I had the place as signature on my renders Providence of the Images just like a copyright signature but it seemed not to be allowed to have such a signature on renders. you can imagine what happen ( Renders had to be removed from Renderosity ) and yes there are amazing freebies and some good stuff :) > but placing a link in here would be against the roles in here . > > Quote : I wonder what you think of the practice of stealing content and planting malware in it for fellow "Sharers" to enjoy? > that is really interesting , and wold be if we analyze this concept a great method to fight piracy ! probably better then encrypting files , fight them with there own weapons. > A pirated Creator pulls up hes sword takes what belongs to him with a modified Pyton script that kills any runtime and placing it on such a site. well this also would be Strategic and may be effective. but not sure if it would boomerang! self-justice I would call this :) So you don't actually sell, correct? If not, of course you would not experience piracy because in fact you had nothing for pirates to steal. Can you take a minute to explain how your experience in not providing anything to steal can provide advice that can be of any value to vendors who in fact sell and had their items stolen? I have to be honest in saying I'm not seeing where your advice can be relevant and what you've said so far makes no sense in terms of marketing since you don't sell. Also I'm curious if you are creating items that are DS native and not poser items that DS users have to import (or the items were not tested in DS) and adjust materials to use.

  gate ( posted at 8:35PM Sat, 20 February 2016 

You wanna google then go ahead Freedom Poser DS and at renderotica I don't need to hide or lie the one you google is one that has been set up just recently to be a Store and still on testing actually a Sleeping site that I use as tryout and oh just stay friendly :)

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 8:45PM Sat, 20 February 2016 · edited on 8:51PM Sat, 20 February 2016

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 9:43PM Sat, 20 February 2016 - [#4256372](#msg4256372) > You wanna google then go ahead > > Freedom Poser DS > > and at renderotica > > I don't need to hide or lie > the one you google is one that has been set up just recently to be a Store and still on testing actually a Sleeping site that I use as tryout > and oh just stay friendly :) Ok so it's not DS native; it's really Poser items that DS users have to adjust. Also are you sure you should be selling content based on Fallout 4 and Firefly? (I could be wrong, but that's what is what popping up and as I do follow videogames those are what stuck out in that store, unless you made the G3F character). Those are copyright violations and should really not be sold. So really my comments stand on the subject. Finally you are just setting up a store for sale so you're not a vendor yet, so I'm still curious how you can give advice to those that have been selling for years as I still not understanding it.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 8:59PM Sat, 20 February 2016 · edited on 9:05PM Sat, 20 February 2016

Also I did see your items at rotica, but as they aren't really DS compatible (and anything that requires me to adjust materials aren't for DS, materials need to be made for customers as I used to go into Poser to create materials for my characters that I said are compatible for Poser), I skipped right over them. Saying that may have been acceptable 6 years ago, it simply isn't acceptable today for a vendor to say something is DS compatible and won't even open DAZ Studio to make native materials but expect customers to pay for an item and convert it themselves.

  gate ( posted at 9:11PM Sat, 20 February 2016 

See it is a head start and not having to give advice to people who are experienced , if you gather people that place like in a mall products on such a place it works also it helps new comers Look at it as a test on how your reaction might be seing your intention are they rather friendly or offensive. So you don't like what you seen that is ok it is a matter of taste. and one is not just called vendor because he sells here or at Daz. :)

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 9:20PM Sat, 20 February 2016 

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 10:13PM Sat, 20 February 2016 - [#4256375](#msg4256375) > See it is a head start and not having to give advice to people who are experienced , if you gather people that place like in a mall products on such a place > it works also it helps new comers > Look at it as a test on how your reaction might be seing your intention are they rather friendly or offensive. > So you don't like what you seen that is ok it is a matter of taste. > and one is not just called vendor because he sells here or at Daz. :) It's not really about a matter of taste, it's the fact that you are lecturing about things you can't give actual perspective on. If you're selling items on a site that no one knows about, of course you're not going to get your items pirated. If you're selling items that are questionable in terms of copyright, it's hard to give perspective either. I've started selling at smaller sites and erotic sites as well way before I sold items at DAZ. All during that time, my items have been pirated; even when I was learning how to use DAZ Studio and before I started selling, my renders were taken and sold and I received no commission or even credit. So I really would like to know how your inexperience in not selling items that anyone knows about to be pirated can be relevant in a discussion where vendors that sell far more items and have had items pirated.

  gate ( posted at 9:21PM Sat, 20 February 2016 

Well I guess I never mentioned that I never used DS ! and actually do not plan to use it. the argument never was ether being a DS user or not, just was based on Encryptions the actual Marketing idea in this thread. Such arguments still are helpful to Improve if you believe it or not, I can even learn from your statements to see what could be done differently or better there is always some positive things found in such arguments

  gate ( posted at 9:29PM Sat, 20 February 2016 

how I read your statements it means you have been Pirated several times , and I guess you do agree to the Encryption project from DAZ ? and does it include that you are certain that it will not happen after the changes? I do not see your opinion about the incoming changes! is it good , is it Bad will you gain more or Less ? you as a experienced Vendor should be able to answer me these questions from your point of View. would be more constructive saying ! hey the Idea from Daz is great and I beleive that it will protect me and Increase my sales.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 9:35PM Sat, 20 February 2016 · edited on 9:38PM Sat, 20 February 2016

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 10:27PM Sat, 20 February 2016 - [#4256378](#msg4256378) > Well I guess I never mentioned that I never used DS ! and actually do not plan to use it. > the argument never was ether being a DS user or not, just was based on Encryptions the actual Marketing idea > in this thread. > Such arguments still are helpful to Improve if you believe it or not, I can even learn from your statements > to see what could be done differently or better there is always some positive things found in such arguments That's fair enough, but the subject is really about DAZ Studio products being encrypted and how that affects people that are actually using DAZ Studio. But I do have to be honest when I've offered my opinions in the Poser forurm, and even though I owned several copies of Poser (up to Poser 10) and used it create materials and render for my promos for my products, I was told to get out because it was "Poser forum". I don't want to throw that argument up, but I do want to know how the matter of encryption affects you when you aren't using DAZ Studio and you have no intentions to do so either? To me it sounds more like a pile on rather than an honest discussion on not wanting to use encrypted DAZ products. The forums are volatile enough without adding these types of posts that really add fuel to the fire. Since you would be a 3rd party vendor, your products really wouldn't be affected and they would still be loaded into DAZ studios with no problem and customers would still have to adjust the materials to get your product to render correctly.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 11:26PM Sat, 20 February 2016 · edited on 11:29PM Sat, 20 February 2016

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 12:13AM Sun, 21 February 2016 - [#4256379](#msg4256379) > how I read your statements it means you have been Pirated several times , and I guess you do agree > to the Encryption project from DAZ ? and does it include that you are certain that it will not happen after the changes? > I do not see your opinion about the incoming changes! is it good , is it Bad will you gain more or Less ? > you as a experienced Vendor should be able to answer me these questions from your point of View. > would be more constructive saying ! hey the Idea from Daz is great and I beleive that it will protect me and Increase my sales. As far as as encryption goes, it probably bears a story that needs to be shared. Previously, I would get PMs from users saying that one of my items was shared. I would get the copy the link to the site and create a DCMA takedown notice to remove the link. The site owner would see it and the link, and the file would be removed. Currently, I would see a file link, send it to DAZ and get a response basically shrugging their shoulders that nothing could be done to remove the line. Other vendors would basically stop looking at these PMs as nothing could be done to remove links and they basically would have to live with items being pirated as nothing could be done to remove it. The issue then becomes, do you just sit and not do anything to remove the links? Or do you try to do something to slow down the piracy? And that's really where the encryption comes in. It doesn't totally stop piracy, but it is an attempt to slow down the piracy of files. It doesn't increase sales, but it does mitigate the rate at which items are shared. So far I've seen that people in the forums basically want to just want DAZ and vendors to do absolutely nothing in regards to slowing down piracy of items. Realistically, that doesn't make sense. The issue becomes do we try to make a compromise to slow down piracy without totally interfering with a customer's workflows or not doing a single thing. That's really were we are now. Something really needs to be done about items being made but are pirated within hours of being released. The tech may not be foolproof, but something needs to be done so that there isn't a total loss on items added to the store.

  IceEmpress ( posted at 11:33PM Sat, 20 February 2016 

I Used to DL pirated anime sondtracks, books (esp. out of print ones that can only be bought 2nd-hand off the internet) I also am trying to compile a list of the old PS_AC type SKU codes. I am vehemently opposed to DRM, but yes, I am all too aware of precisely how rampant the piracy is. Basically, if it is uploaded to the DAZ, Rendo, RDNA, or Hivewire marketplaces, it WILL, without fail, be available on torrent sites within 48 hours. It goes beyond that, however. Some of these sites (which most of us have come across but may not have recognized them for what they are) are warez sites, but not blatant about it. Most famous example is the site and its mirrors that host tens of thousands of 3DS and GSM models. Most of these sites not only pirate commercial products, but also upload other peoples' distribution-prohibited freebies without their permission. Many people innocently link to these sites, not recognizing them for what they are, which unless you recognize some of the pirated models on these sites, you won't recognize as a warez site, either. Even the DAZ and Rendo admins get fooled. Far worse than either of the above, it is also SUPER COMMON for piraters to then upload the pirated products to a 3D marketplace (including Second Life) and sell them as their own-- pirated commercial products AND illegally redistributed freebies. General 3D websites like Turbosquid and CGTrader are PLAGUED with this (which is why it is best to avoid commercial products less than 1 or 2 years old unless it's from a reputable vendor, IMO)

  Razor42 ( posted at 12:39AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 5:19PM Sun, 21 February 2016 - [#4256372](#msg4256372) > You wanna google then go ahead > > Freedom Poser DS > > and at renderotica > > I don't need to hide or lie > the one you google is one that has been set up just recently to be a Store and still on testing actually a Sleeping site that I use as tryout > and oh just stay friendly :) Cringe, wow. :confounded: You must spend a fortune on commercial licensing for that site... The main graphic on the homepage is a commercially modified version of Rising Swan by Jason Wickens, I imagine you have communicated with him regarding the commercial use of his copyrighted artwork. The use of the HR Giger print Landscape XIX on your Space Jockey freebie, I hear Giger commercial copyright clearances are notoriously difficult to get, numerous 20th century fox content commercial products... For some reason your stated opinions seem to make a lot more sense to me now... Good luck with the site... :slight_smile:


  LPR001 ( posted at 3:28AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

@gate I did give you the heads up. I have been here a while you get to know these things. They will remain friendly, but once you have had your stuff knocked off the concept - let the pirates market your goods for you it is a win win situation might be a bit of a hard sell. Of course if you do somehow achieve this then all i can really say is ..... Mr Gate do I have a job for you.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  gate ( posted at 3:46AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

Well actually for me it does not matter as I mostly use Poser , but still in the back of your head thinking would it ever be worth to give DS a shot . so I would be a newbie in this sector and would have to decide ! is it worth the hassle. already hard enough when a Poser user would love to have a DS only product sold asking me if I would offer a remake that could be used in Poser in case that he would purchase that Product. As for gyger to bad he fell and actually was a Nabor ok he sure was a little special I got a House hes Cusin owned few decades back and we were looking at Drawings he made in hes school times while he had class in GR. A great man but at the same time always the talk of the little Village. He got pretty upsett about the Treatment he got from the movie industry also how hes stuff has been abused in NY but this is another story. I thought I seen also a Jockey that would honor Him sold at Daz but I might be wrong as I don't really surf allot there. but we don't really wanna talk about integrated Ideas that might show up in our creations , it might get a little complicated. In a way I could say great Daz shall do it this way same as many tried and done! it might be a chance that many go back to Poser so the market bounces from one side to the other . but I think if both would work hand in hand it all would be easyer for the Creator the customer and the store-owner. rather then to make each other to much concurrence causing separations Like you mentioned DS users can use Poser stuff in there Programm and will with some slight modifications but Poser users barely cant even if they would like to , assuming Poser does the same thing blocking the Comp-ability and say hey CR2 pp2 ect is our file model and DS should not use it , then for sure there would be a full Separation. all this makes the User the customer and the creator uncomfortable as he needs to decide what will he use with the little time hes got.

  gate ( posted at 4:15AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

@ IceEmpress I sure agree in allot of points , I to have to look twice on the site head if it is really the original Store As for Daz site there were occasionally sites popping up that in the first moment were not to be recognized that it is not DAZ for newbies in specific sectors it would be quiet impossible to tell is is legitimate or not.

  Razor42 ( posted at 4:22AM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 4:22AM Sun, 21 February 2016

So Gate are you saying you don't pay or seek permission for any licensing of the images you're using on your commercial site and in product promos?


  gate ( posted at 5:11AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

Razor? Did I offend you in a personal way of some sort ? or are you feeling personally attacked ? what do you think about the basic Conversation ? Would you Encrypt the Files at Daz and be the first one who exclusive would sell hes Products Encrypted. if you are a vendor there then i guess it would be fair if you have the choice one day. you just could say yes I do and a little reason why . The way of your handling things in a indirect way to say Hes a Pirate is exactly the wrong way , my opinion is that exactly this might create em and it is ending up as a Nightmare. if you look at my work it is not to build a Pirate site and if It was it would be the easy way I would take and sure would get more hits in no time.

  Razor42 ( posted at 6:35AM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 6:48AM Sun, 21 February 2016

No you haven't offended me, it just seems you have missed the first 12 pages of the conversation. You have laid out a number of idea's that I would say I fundamentally disagree with. It's not personal, I just disagree with the concepts. From what I can tell you're saying is that Encryption is only a bad thing, because piracy is essentially a positive or irresistible force. That an artist should be flattered when there work is taken without permission even in aspects where it is used in commercial applications. I have to say as an artist i do disagree with this. Piracy at its heart undermines most forms of legitimate trade and creative commercial value, you could also say piracy is somewhat parasitic in nature feeding of a system while not actually nurturing it in any realistic way. Especially so when it relates to cases of the commercial exploitation of others content. I notice in your readmes that you ask if someone is going to use one of your products in a specific way, that you request they legitimately purchase said product. And you also have numerous copyright statements throughout your site and readmes. Yet you also seem to have no issue in using others copyrighted content in your own commercial enterprise without permission or request from the legal rights holder. I find this scenario to be common thread with a lot of people who engage in casual piracy. A kind of double standard of morale principal. The expectation that their own rights and entitlements should be respected, but holding others rights in a different regard. To the point that deeming it legitimate to pretend there isn't actually any legal breach if they choose to ignore the rights of others. Which is the reason I raised the perceived issue with the webpage, it's not personal but central to some of the points you're raising and the direction you have chosen for your enterprise. Which I could only describe as high risk. There is a potential for immediate gain but you run the risk of seeing the store pulled or in fact legal action being taken against you. But honestly that is your risk to take. Some have made statement that Encryption has repercussions on their workflow or is just inconvenient to them as a user, which is an understandable POV for most to comprehend. And in turn no seller wants to shackle their content in a way that impinges on their paying customers usage of that product. Though I do honestly feel that the approach Daz 3D has taken has been quite kid gloves about it and they have done their best to mitigate customer impact in numerous ways. With the intention of adding a very basic level of security to the digital content sold through their store. And I suspect that many workflow issues will be overcome given time for things like Carrara usage. And I do hope Daz 3D are prioritising addressing issues such as that. The 12 month life on the encryption lock up is also a good compromise that addresses some customers content lockout fears with encrypted product. I just find your approach to the subject to be rather unconventional and I can't really tell if you have any actual issues with the Daz Encryption system or are just seeking to somewhat humanise piracy to a level where it's seen as a more benign force. And to establish a premise that any attempt to mitigate its actual impacts to a business is unwarranted.


  gate ( posted at 6:57AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

@LPR001 I sure do agree that some mentioned comments would lead to a win win or to a fail situation. I think there are more honest people around then we possibly can imagine some just don't know it jet.I knew people who gotten upset about seing there stuff they worked on hard out there and they Fighted the hard way. It resulted that there sites got smashed they got tottaly riped off until they gave up! they even stopped to Create ! but there were others they went out there saying in a calm way , you know it is something I worked hard on and it would be nice if you would support my Creation. they even offered support to those that they can be creative them selves and bring out something they created. there were even creators who said you could of asked me and I might of given it to you. Some even ended up as Creators contributing allot to communities. they are amongst us amongst the Store staff amongst Vendors. and Razor don't ask me Who or what you will not get any answers ! I came enough around over the past Decade and I know out of facts enough People that had such experiences. I think that convincing another sides, that there are other ways to get attention, can result to be very constructive.

  gate ( posted at 7:23AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

A side note: I can go out there on a Horse in an Armour amongst a crowd of people and throw out gold coins and they will all fallow me even place a gold crown on my head not asking where the gold coins came from. this is the basic way of pirates strategy and it cant really be fighted. the only way to do is to convince the ones who took the Coins and placed the Crown that it was wrong this way and that there are other ways to get the coin.

  Kim222 ( posted at 8:52AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

As a paying customer I do take issues with what Daz3d encryption implies. As a paying customer I also take issue with the TOS of the products I purchase form here. I pay and I am told I am basically "renting" not buying a product of my liking. I can not let my kids, mother, friend use the product even from my PC. As a hobbyist I find this disturbing and always have. In one statement above, it was noted that Daz3d does not go after "warez" sites on behalf of their venders. I find that sad because the ones I have seen actually resell, through memberships, 3D content from all stores. This type of activity has to really rub the creators the wrong way. The members of these sites have disposable cash which the creators will never see. Why not hit those types of places HARD. Instead they make it more of a hassle for the paying customers at Daz3d and treat us ALL like criminals. I don't get it. Those that use those types of sites don't buy anyway, so why treat the rest of us like scum too.

  Razor42 ( posted at 8:59AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

How would you suggest going after Warez sites?


  Kim222 ( posted at 9:19AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

Through the Data Centers hosting them.

  Razor42 ( posted at 9:25AM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 9:26AM Sun, 21 February 2016

Does that work on a global scale? My understanding is that some Data Centers are hosted in countries that there is no legal issue with the practice.


  Kim222 ( posted at 9:36AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

I have seen this same story being played out since 1999. No one has stopped file sharing (ask Microsoft). I foresee encryption inviting a new type of crowd, Crackers. What used to be limited to art hobbyist evolving into the underground warez scene which will give the 3d files more exposure. Remember the release group MAAS..well if its encrypted some will exploit it. These people do it for fun. Right now 3d content if off their radar..encrypt it and they will come. Daz3d is fighting against an invisible monster that it can not kill but it can be slowed. I guess it just depends on which fight they want to choose..but choose wisely because it will/can bite them in the butt. Encryption will bring out the Pros. It just offends me that Daz3d has decided paying customers are a risk to their bottom line. We have all been lumped together.

  Kim222 ( posted at 9:45AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

Yes, there are different laws for different countries and some more difficult to take down but if it is such an issue why not use the resources to hit the true criminals instead of making new ones.

  Razor42 ( posted at 9:49AM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 10:01AM Sun, 21 February 2016

I understand what you're saying and your points are valid, but I don't know if you can say we have all been lumped together, the encryption is primarily designed to stop/slow illicit file sharing. To the majority of users in the majority of usage cases the encryption would make no difference to the functionality of the product. In a similar way to the encryption that is used to protect this web page.


  Kim222 ( posted at 9:58AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

It is Daz3d's call, but if I were a seller I would NOT want more trouble from more sources. Once encrypted they lure a whole new set of issues at a scale that would blow ones mind. What they have planned has not been thoroughly been thought out. It seems they have forgotten the past and are inviting a new set of trouble.

  Razor42 ( posted at 9:58AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

[Kim222](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=366981) posted at 2:49AM Mon, 22 February 2016 - [#4256460](#msg4256460) > Yes, there are different laws for different countries and some more difficult to take down but if it is such an issue why not use the resources to hit the true criminals instead of making new ones. "Some more difficult to take down" is somewhat of an understatement. The US government itself has had trouble bringing down rogue websites, take wikileaks for example. You think Daz can muster more resources?


  Razor42 ( posted at 10:05AM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 10:06AM Sun, 21 February 2016

[Kim222](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=366981) posted at 3:02AM Mon, 22 February 2016 - [#4256467](#msg4256467) > It is Daz3d's call, but if I were a seller I would NOT want more trouble from more sources. Once encrypted they lure a whole new set of issues at a scale that would blow ones mind. > > What they have planned has not been thoroughly been thought out. It seems they have forgotten the past and are inviting a new set of trouble. Actually encryption should pretty well narrow the sources from what it was. Any product was a free for all for any to do with as they please. Now it will require specialist skills to file share an encrypted pair of Vicky panties. And who knows what a specialist may decide to add in there as a little added extra.


  Kim222 ( posted at 10:06AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 10:03AM Sun, 21 February 2016 - [#4256464](#msg4256464) > the encryption is primarily designed to stop/slow illicit file sharing. My point is it will accelerate it.

  Razor42 ( posted at 10:07AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

[Kim222](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=366981) posted at 3:06AM Mon, 22 February 2016 - [#4256471](#msg4256471) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 10:03AM Sun, 21 February 2016 - [#4256464](#msg4256464) > > > the encryption is primarily designed to stop/slow illicit file sharing. > > My point is it will accelerate it. I can't really see how?


  Kim222 ( posted at 10:13AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

[Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 10:10AM Sun, 21 February 2016 - [#4256469](#msg4256469) > Actually encryption should pretty well narrow the sources from what it was. Hold on to that thought you are going to need it. You underestimate or do not understand the bigger picture.

  Razor42 ( posted at 10:21AM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 10:22AM Sun, 21 February 2016

[Kim222](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=366981) posted at 3:19AM Mon, 22 February 2016 - [#4256476](#msg4256476) > [Razor42](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=313712) posted at 10:10AM Sun, 21 February 2016 - [#4256469](#msg4256469) > > > > > Actually encryption should pretty well narrow the sources from what it was. > > Hold on to that thought you are going to need it. You underestimate or do not understand the bigger picture. Maybe not, but all i can do is as any other. Make action today, plan for tomorrow and hope for a better future for all of us.


  Kim222 ( posted at 10:39AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

One last point I would like to make. The decisions Daz3d makes will effect the competitors stores the most in the beginning. Once the encryption is broken all is for nothing. Then things will be as they were. Rendo and all the other stores will suffer the most. Those that share their files at pay sites or torrent joints will still do it and guess which files? So when this is fully in effect it will make a financial hit but it will cause a ripple effect for the other stores as well. Since many creators sell at both this should get interesting.

  gate ( posted at 11:30AM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 11:38AM Sun, 21 February 2016

Now that is funny :) or rather not :) I sure hope that no "W" People are reading this . @Razor ! I am not sure what Kimm222 really meant it seemed rather the question on how to find a solution that does not Restrict the costumer placing them into the same boat when using Purchased products within family members at RISC to be treated like criminals if they do. or do they have to purchase the Product 3x for 3 computers and 3 family members if not then 2 of 3 are Pirates for the creator and the store a good heads-start it would triple the sales for renting Edit: Upps was a little late with my comment :)

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 11:51AM Sun, 21 February 2016 

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 12:48PM Sun, 21 February 2016 - [#4256498](#msg4256498) > @Razor ! I am not sure what Kimm222 really meant it seemed rather the question on how to find a solution that does not > Restrict the costumer placing them into the same boat when using Purchased products within family members > at RISC to be treated like criminals if they do. > > or do they have to purchase the Product 3x for 3 computers and 3 family members if not then 2 of 3 are Pirates > for the creator and the store a good heads-start it would triple the sales for renting > What does the EULA normally say for every product you buy? They are licenses for one user (and that's not only for DAZ for all brokerages) and if you share it with family then yes you are in violation of the EULA. So basically you're not supposed to be sharing files between people in the first place, so encrypting for one user should not affect something that you were not supposed to be doing.

  Kim222 ( posted at 12:33PM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 12:34PM Sun, 21 February 2016

No, you are saying I can not let others use my PC where this stuff I buy is housed. So you are basically telling me if one of my kids decide to give a look at it I'm a criminal? I also only have 1 windows license, am I a criminal there as well?

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 12:55PM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 1:01PM Sun, 21 February 2016

[Kim222](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=366981) posted at 1:55PM Sun, 21 February 2016 - [#4256511](#msg4256511) > No, you are saying I can not let others use my PC where this stuff I buy is housed. So you are basically telling me if one of my kids decide to give a look at it I'm a criminal? I also only have 1 windows license, am I a criminal there as well? The EULA specifically says what you can and can not do with the license. If you do not agree, then you can not use it. The EULAs have been in place for years and have been one user licenses.. so you could have it on multiple machines (like a home machine and a laptop), but only you are entitled to use it.. not family or friends. This is not a new development. I would suggest reading the EULA to see what it says.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 1:04PM Sun, 21 February 2016 

In terms of DAZ, the EULA has not been more restrictive but actually expanded to include the ability to have models 3D printed for personal use and allow using part of genesis' mesh for use in geografted products for example. But who gets to use the product has not changed.

  gate ( posted at 1:14PM Sun, 21 February 2016 

Well printed products are such a thing Ds product cant be printed as details are not in the mesh but just projections of textures on a low res geometry so actually useless to get a good print there you need better apps like Zbrush !

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 1:40PM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 1:43PM Sun, 21 February 2016

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 2:38PM Sun, 21 February 2016 - [#4256524](#msg4256524) > Well printed products are such a thing Ds product cant be printed as details are not in the mesh but just projections of textures on a low res geometry so actually useless to get a good print > there you need better apps like Zbrush ! In DS you can increase subdivisions and export that for 3D printing. So if you're printing a mod with HD morphs, you would simply export that to send. It would depend on if the model you are using is watertight to begin with. But this is getting beyond the point I was making about being EULA being expanded.

  gate ( posted at 2:17PM Sun, 21 February 2016 

My luck that the music industries and Video industries don't have such a strict License like only one can hear or see else both have to pay imagine a evening with friends and each one needs to get a license to watch the movie or listen to the song Some Represent-ants of artists are just not flexible enough or is it the artist that asks such restrictions. Questions: Can a artist that sell at Daz make hes own eula for the product he owns and sells or does the sale of the product through daz just include one way ? will if flexible still be possible to have the download adapted to the individual permissions of the copyright holder? as a vendor of your own proprety are yo allowed to see who when and how much is sold? will this if your sales are Visible still granted when it is integrated as Clowd into the program? It is your stuff you sell Right and you remain the copyright holder? is such a system trustfull when integrated in a Programm that you get what you deserve as Vendor? even Sony had huuge issues with there clowd getting hacked , if someone can hack a sony how bad will it be with DS it that happens? what wil be if with the new system logins will be cracked through the application? will take Daz charge for the damaged customers? as far as I know Programs and clowds can be verry sensitive it even goes under the datacontroll rights Like collecting personal datas. is it granted if that Daz does not collect data over the legal period of time ? ______________________________________________________________________ you never learn enough can be useful for future planing on recruiting new artists :) I sure hope my kidds will not have to grow into a world that asks a coin on every click.

  Kim222 ( posted at 2:38PM Sun, 21 February 2016 

Okay, I read the EULA in full. ( lol like anyone ever really reads those things). Just my dumb luck no one that shares my family PC has any interest in this 3D stuff, so I am safe. Sad that the world is so distrusting.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 3:21PM Sun, 21 February 2016 

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 4:17PM Sun, 21 February 2016 - [#4256541](#msg4256541) > My luck that the music industries and Video industries don't have such a strict License like only one can hear or see else both have to pay > imagine a evening with friends and each one needs to get a license to watch the movie or listen to the song > > > Some Represent-ants of artists are just not flexible enough or is it the artist that asks such restrictions. > > Questions: > > Can a artist that sell at Daz make hes own eula for the product he owns and sells or does the sale of the product through daz > just include one way ? > > will if flexible still be possible to have the download adapted to the individual permissions of the copyright holder? > > as a vendor of your own proprety are yo allowed to see who when and how much is sold? > > will this if your sales are Visible still granted when it is integrated as Clowd into the program? > > It is your stuff you sell Right and you remain the copyright holder? > > is such a system trustfull when integrated in a Programm that you get what you deserve as Vendor? > > even Sony had huuge issues with there clowd getting hacked , if someone can hack a sony how bad will it be with DS it that happens? > > what wil be if with the new system logins will be cracked through the application? > > will take Daz charge for the damaged customers? > > as far as I know Programs and clowds can be verry sensitive it even goes under the datacontroll rights Like collecting personal datas. > is it granted if that Daz does not collect data over the legal period of time ? > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > you never learn enough can be useful for future planing on recruiting new artists :) > I sure hope my kidds will not have to grow into a world that asks a coin on every click. Let me ask a question to your question. When you are selling your items at renderotica, are you able to do the same things that you are asking me? The rules are the same at DAZ or any brokerage, otherwise no one would sell through them; they would just sell through their own website. It's puzzling that people think that DAZ is a huge slave driver compared to other sites. It's not.

  gate ( posted at 4:03PM Sun, 21 February 2016 

actually I communicate with people and get asked many times what can I do , I just say do what you wish , and you don't have to give me credit . as it is your work after you purchased my product , I hope that the one can be happy with what he got and some little dreams may come true. see I usually try as much as I can to do a creation by my self , I bought allot but I never used it , I did just buy to support the work one done . I think that an artist can only grow if he gets inspired this helps him to find hes individuality. and others that I see no matter who I try to see what is hes strength and I will try to give advice or offer support. " I do not say all the time hey it is forbidden " the World is a forest of signs "you shall not do" at the end not allowing you to do anything without that you could be culpable of a crime. I am not perfect so I never stop learning I am an artist and love to see when others grow as artists , not for greed not for gold and not for Kingdoms. and allot of times one came and said hey I like your work and I wish I was able or I wish I had ! then I give. I always got back what I gave in a way then what you do will return. not daz is the Slave Driver ! Daz is just the tool of the Vendors. like the sword of the Knight ! and Yes my products at rotica have that eula because I am still the one who sells it. and I know who how much and when I sold it. but well Rotica is like freedom one of many just a Sector. and I must say Rotica is the only store that did never disappointed me it is as I said In the Net one can be many so treat them like your friend as it could be one you know.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 4:16PM Sun, 21 February 2016 

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 5:14PM Sun, 21 February 2016 - [#4256574](#msg4256574) > actually I communicate with people and get asked many times what can I do , I just say do what you wish , and you don't have to give me credit . > as it is your work after you purchased my product , I hope that the one can be happy with what he got and some little dreams may come true. > see I usually try as much as I can to do a creation by my self , I bought allot but I never used it , I did just buy to support the work one done . > I think that an artist can only grow if he gets inspired this helps him to find hes individuality. and others that I see no matter who I try to see what is hes strength > and I will try to give advice or offer support. " I do not say all the time hey it is forbidden " the World is a forest of signs "you shall not do" at the end not allowing you to do anything without that you could be culpable of a crime. > > > I am not perfect so I never stop learning I am an artist and love to see when others grow as artists , not for greed not for gold and not for Kingdoms. > > and allot of times one came and said hey I like your work and I wish I was able or I wish I had ! then I give. > I always got back what I gave in a way then what you do will return. > > not daz is the Slave Driver ! Daz is just the tool of the Vendors. like the sword of the Knight ! > > and Yes my products at rotica have that eula because I am still the one who sells it. and I know who how much and when I sold it. > but well Rotica is like freedom one of many just a Sector. and I must say Rotica is the only store that did never disappointed me > > it is as I said In the Net one can be many so treat them like your friend as it could be one you know. Sorry I didn't understand a thing you typed. But simply with a brokerage you own the products you sell through them as you would with any other brokerage. The EULA is the same for all products sold. So basically nothing is different between any brokerage including Renderotica.

  gate ( posted at 4:57PM Sun, 21 February 2016 

Well I understand that you could not understand as you are a businessman guided by rules :) but see you could not answer one question I asked getting just counter questions or read the eula does not really answer them. Quote : Let me ask a question to your question is that all ?

  Razor42 ( posted at 6:10PM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 6:10PM Sun, 21 February 2016

>Questions: >Can a artist that sell at Daz make hes own eula for the product he owns and sells or does the sale of the product through daz just include one way ? Any considered/wanted changes to the base EULA should be taken to Daz directly as the EULA is a legal document and what may seem like a small change may have lasting impact to the content sold under that license. Despite what has been represented here the base EULA spells out terms for the usage of products under a typical personal usgae license for this kind of content. Most artist are happy to let Daz 3D look after the legalities of their product leaving them to focus on creating. >will if flexible still be possible to have the download adapted to the individual permissions of the copyright holder? This makes little sense and would make an impossible situation, the idea of a store that potentially sell 1000's to 10,000's of products daily negotiating usage rights and individually tailored content packages would push up the price of each product and be a nightmare to manage the rights of products. Individual permissions is not a feasible setup for the sale of bulk content and I think you would struggle to see it anywhere where you find high volume and low price point sales . But if usage was required outside of the currently offered terms you could always enquire to the rights holder for special consideration which may be conditionally granted. >as a vendor of your own proprety are yo allowed to see who when and how much is sold? As a PA you do have access to quite a range of data regarding the sales of your product. >will this if your sales are Visible still granted when it is integrated as Clowd into the program? Sorry you have lost me with this one. I'm not sure which "Clowd" you're referring to? >It is your stuff you sell Right and you remain the copyright holder? Your rights always remain yours until the point you choose to waive those rights. >is such a system trustfull when integrated in a Programm that you get what you deserve as Vendor? Again your question is a little unclear to me, sorry. >even Sony had huuge issues with there clowd getting hacked , if someone can hack a sony how bad will it be with DS it that happens? Again I don't see how this is relevant, malicious attacks on any digital platforms are always bad. The level of "bad" is determined by the level of breach and the ability of the platform to reinstate security measures and restore services. >what wil be if with the new system logins will be cracked through the application? Like most business I am sure Daz would have implemented security protocols and defences in place to guard against or deal with hypotheticals similar to what you have described here. What will be? Will be. The future's not ours to see. >will take Daz charge for the damaged customers? Any and all liability terms are as is enforceable by law or in the terms agreed to by the parties involved. As is in the case of any damages. >as far as I know Programs and clowds can be verry sensitive it even goes under the datacontroll rights Like collecting personal datas. is it granted if that Daz does not collect data over the legal period of time ? Er, what? I would say it's granted that Daz 3D as a legitimate business operates within the terms of the law.


  gate ( posted at 7:10PM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 7:15PM Sun, 21 February 2016

Quote: even Sony had huuge issues with there clowd getting hacked , if someone can hack a sony how bad will it be with DS it that happens? Again I don't see how this is relevant, malicious attacks on any digital platforms are always bad. The level of "bad" is determined by the level of breach and the ability of the platform to reinstate security measures and restore services. _______________________________________________________________________________________ Well Sony had a pretty bad attack through PS3 it caused that hackers could get access to Personal accounts and payment methods of Costumers Causing millions of damage to Sony as far as I understand DS is connected to accounts could this not be a vulnerable point in the program. I read about worries that the encryption might get hacked! so what could happen the way these Improvements are announced what if a hacker figures out how to decrypt the protection and gets into sensitive personal data's ? I guess that the hackers intention rather was to get the online games for free over the program but hacking this caused to access costumers accounts and rip there valuable Credit cards.

  IceEmpress ( posted at 7:14PM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 7:18PM Sun, 21 February 2016

_The EULA specifically says what you can and can not do with the license. If you do not agree, then you can not use it. The EULAs have been in place for years and have been one user licenses.. so you could have it on multiple machines (like a home machine and a laptop), but only you are entitled to use it.. not family or friends._ TF that's ridiculous! And it seems that my dad and I have been violating this rule for years since we play the same games on a PC. And what in the world are schools and non-profits supposed to do? Get an indie license from DAZ or a commercial license from Rendo?! They are not businesses, they are NPOs! Wow, I had no idea that so many businesses do not support schools or higher education... And you actually support this?! _My luck that the music industries and Video industries don't have such a strict License_ Only because the US supreme court won't let them. Believe me, they and the movie industry HAVE tried to do exactly this and more (they have fought tooth and nail against making backup copies or having the file on more than one device) Despite the USSC rulings, they still lie to customers and tell them that backups and the like are illegal. You have NO idea how much they have fought stuff like this ever since the release of the VCR.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 7:58PM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 8:00PM Sun, 21 February 2016

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 8:55PM Sun, 21 February 2016 - [#4256585](#msg4256585) > Well I understand that you could not understand as you are a businessman guided by rules :) > but see you could not answer one question I asked getting just counter questions or read the eula does not really answer them. > > Quote : Let me ask a question to your question > > is that all ? I didn't bother answering because it wasn't a question that really didn't need to be answered. I as said previously, I'm surprised that people actually think DAZ treats their vendors worse than other brokerages but somehow still keeps their vendors selling product through their store. It simply didn't make sense to even respond. Vendors are what makes any brokerage and they are free to go where ever they wish. They own their own products to sell and they are not employees. If DAZ was so horrible, no one would sell through them.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 8:12PM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 8:23PM Sun, 21 February 2016

[IceEmpress](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=756222) posted at 9:03PM Sun, 21 February 2016 - [#4256615](#msg4256615) > _The EULA specifically says what you can and can not do with the license. If you do not agree, then you can not use it. The EULAs have been in place for years and have been one user licenses.. so you could have it on multiple machines (like a home machine and a laptop), but only you are entitled to use it.. not family or friends._ > > TF that's ridiculous! And it seems that my dad and I have been violating this rule for years since we play the same games on a PC. And what in the world are schools and non-profits supposed to do? Get an indie license from DAZ or a commercial license from Rendo?! They are not businesses, they are NPOs! Wow, I had no idea that so many businesses do not support schools or higher education... In the case of schools and nonprofits, they have worked out deals with companies for educational pricing. They simply don't buy something once and install it on mulitple machines as that is illegal. Corporations can work out multiple licenses directly with the software company as well. But the key is they've read the EULA and understand what they are buying; if if they need something different, they would see if they can get a different licence... not just do whatever they please once they buy something. Not only would the organization be in hot water legally, but the people involved would get fired at the very least. > And you actually support this?! I understand exactly what my rights with any software licence I purchase regardless of the company: Adobe, Marvelous, Pixologic, Luxology and DAZ. You can't pass those programs around either legally because they have that stated in their EULAs as well. If you want your family to use a program or content, you have to buy for each or purchase a licence that covers multiple users. When you buy a product you agree to that licence. EDIT: Keep in mind that for programs like Microsoft Office they may have a per machine licence, so that people can use programs like Word on one machine. But that does not mean that you can buy one copy of Microsoft Word and install it on your childrens' computers (unless you bought a family license)... that would be a violation as well.

  IceEmpress ( posted at 10:06PM Sun, 21 February 2016 

*I understand exactly what my rights with any software licence I purchase regardless of the company: Adobe, Marvelous, Pixologic, Luxology and DAZ. You can't pass those programs around either legally because they have that stated in their EULAs as well. If you want your family to use a program or content, you have to buy for each or purchase a licence that covers multiple users. When you buy a product you agree to that licence.* If these negotiations exist, then where is the "Nonprofit" vendor license at the Daz store, where is it here on Renderosity? On software sites like Adobe, they state straight up what the price is for schools. Why is it held secret so that few even know that it exists, esp. those for whom English is not their first language and therefore can't even understand the EULA? (Hell, I have trouble understanding it as well in some areas but thought I thoguht sure I understood everything relevant.) This is especially true for non-Daz originals since there is no way to contact a PA directly for a non-profit license. It also makes it easy for a company to cheat non-profits since there is no transparency of transactions or set prices. When exactly did this start? The EULA that I have ever fully read for any program is that it is for either 1 residential household/apartment room or (usually) a max of 3-4 computers at a single business. (I rarely read the EULA because it's alway so damn long and I never imagined it would include anything like this. Usually I just read the privacy statement. I've read the EULA on the old DAZ exes several times and don't remember reading anything like that.) I am aware of the distribution thing-- I thought the "no redistribution" thing for 3D models only applied to selling it, letting someone put it on their machine as well outside of your household, or not transferring ownership.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 10:25PM Sun, 21 February 2016 · edited on 10:28PM Sun, 21 February 2016

[IceEmpress](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=756222) posted at 11:10PM Sun, 21 February 2016 - [#4256633](#msg4256633) > *I understand exactly what my rights with any software licence I purchase regardless of the company: Adobe, Marvelous, Pixologic, Luxology and DAZ. You can't pass those programs around either legally because they have that stated in their EULAs as well. If you want your family to use a program or content, you have to buy for each or purchase a licence that covers multiple users. When you buy a product you agree to that licence.* > > > If these negotiations exist, then where is the "Nonprofit" vendor license at the Daz store, where is it here on Renderosity? On software sites like Adobe, they state straight up what the price is for schools. Why is it held secret so that few even know that it exists, esp. those for whom English is not their first language and therefore can't even understand the EULA? (Hell, I have trouble understanding it as well in some areas but thought I thoguht sure I understood everything relevant.) This is especially true for non-Daz originals since there is no way to contact a PA directly for a non-profit license. It also makes it easy for a company to cheat non-profits since there is no transparency of transactions or set prices. For organizations they usually have a person that does purchases. If that person doesn't see educational prices, they usually can contact the company for information on pricing. Sometimes it's not posted or available from the webpage because it may be priced by number of seats, and you have to contact the company directly. This is only way you would get around the public EULA. Either way, you can't buy a product then alter the terms of the EULA afterwards. > > When exactly did this start? The EULA that I have ever fully read for any program is that it is for either 1 residential household/apartment room or (usually) a max of 3-4 computers at a single business. (I rarely read the EULA because it's alway so damn long and I never imagined it would include anything like this. Usually I just read the privacy statement. I've read the EULA on the old DAZ exes several times and don't remember reading anything like that.) For most of the brokerages, the licenses are for one person only and it's been that way for years. My other software licenses vary where it's per person or per OS (my zbrush license 2 machines for only one OS.. so I have a cross license for my PC and Mac machines). My modo license is for one person and one install on a mac and a PC, but they have floating licenses for multiple people too. The point is, each piece of software you purchase has a license that you need to be aware of how it should be used.

  gate ( posted at 5:21AM Mon, 22 February 2016 

Well considering that it is a International business, allot of things may vary as Federal laws of contracts may vary in different countries. here what has been purchased digitally automatically applies for households every thing purchased within that household can be used by any in the whole property of that household even if there are multiple houses. you can see this especially in you tube things you upload may be locked in certain countries and in others not even if it is third party copyright music integrated in a clip you made. this is a verry sensitive sector , one in the Us may have one law that differs to the European one accusing them but caused damage to the other thinking it is Ilegal based on there Law. so it may end that even that there contract said you may not do will have to cover the whole damage.

  gate ( posted at 5:27AM Mon, 22 February 2016 

these laws can even Varry if you pass one state border to another meaning the village you live in is not the world ! if you live near a borderline and have a dog in one state the dog will need a muzzle in the other not if you walk across that border from the state that is free of muzzle to the one that has that obligation you will get punished for the dog not to have had that muzzle, even if you did not realize that you passed the Borderline as there was no sign that you are in another state.

  gate ( posted at 10:39AM Mon, 22 February 2016 

I checked a little that encryption stuff , actually for geometric stuff it should not make any differences as for if one wants to decrypt the stuff he will just decrypt em by export in OBJ same like decrypting files from DS to external apps or just generate CR2 files in case they are rigged for Poser, I never use DS so just checking the options also it seems if generating a saving as new assets it should build up a new Directory that might kill The encryption in no time. ![Sample.jpg](https://bw-1651cf0d2f737d7adeab84d339dbabd3-forumpro.s3.amazonaws.com/forum_12452/thread_2895510/message_4256690/file_1ff8a7b5dc7a7d1f0ed65aaa29c04b1e.jpg) well as far as I just could figure out in the past half hour. so at the end it seems whether encrypted or not the ones who will like to have the files saved as Zip backups without encryption will not have allot of work to get em this way , but if this would work as easy as I think it will then why the trouble and all the unnecessary work for the customers?

  gate ( posted at 11:13AM Mon, 22 February 2016 

As Sidenote: Assuming that even I that has absolutely no interest in DS starts to check on how and why just because I read Encryption. Takes time to check if there would be alternatives is it just because it challenges ? I guess it is human to get challenged no matter what it is it makes one feel alive ! but now I as a non interest DS user feel challenged what do you thing the Pros will do ? they will jump on it like starving Wolf's ! and for sure things in Daz communities will not get better. well ok , if when , the positive side is People communicate and have something to talk about , Dramatics is also a sort of challenge :)

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 12:22PM Mon, 22 February 2016 · edited on 12:22PM Mon, 22 February 2016

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 1:20PM Mon, 22 February 2016 - [#4256690](#msg4256690) > I checked a little that encryption stuff , actually for geometric stuff it should not make any differences as for if one wants to decrypt the stuff > he will just decrypt em by export in OBJ same like decrypting files from DS to external apps or just generate CR2 files in case they are rigged > for Poser, I never use DS so just checking the options also it seems if generating a saving as new assets it should build up a new Directory > that might kill The encryption in no time. If a product consists of JCMs, ERC, correctives and HD you can't simply export and put it back together. Someone already tried with a figure and made a mess of the shared file.

  gate ( posted at 12:40PM Mon, 22 February 2016 

I wonder how it would work for one that peferes to use an older version of DS how will he be able to get a purchased product from Daz latest version into an older one he needs to use, when I work with poser I use P6 up all the way to the latest version and also using different Library setups to work on the Files not one combined librarie meaning that files have to be installed individually for every work

  Razor42 ( posted at 5:20PM Mon, 22 February 2016 

Version user fragmentation is very low with DS, mainly due to their being no cost to upgrade. And on the the flip side version fragmentation is one of the biggest issues with creating for the Poser market.


  IceEmpress ( posted at 6:29PM Mon, 22 February 2016 

I wonder how it would work for one that peferes to use an older version of DS how will he be able to get a purchased product from Daz latest version into an older one he needs to use, when I work with poser I use P6 up all the way to the latest version and also using different Library setups to work on the Files not one combined librarie meaning that files have to be installed individually for every work Yup, that's a problem too (I still prefer 4.5, and I'd use non-beta newer versions were it possible to have two versions of DAZ on the same computer). Also not compatible with DSON since no version of Poser can read encrypted files. So unlike what MaleM3dia said, it's not just a minor inconvenience to workflow. Genesis 3 may be entirely incompatible with Poser, but the new props sold at DAZ are not, not to mention that some of the encrypted products are for Genesis 2, which IS compatible with Poser.

  gate ( posted at 7:32PM Mon, 22 February 2016 

it really seems that there is a Marketing War who gets the larger Piece of the Cake , Amazing strategy you addict people on one Program then just adapt it on the actual Income, if income shrinks then you frow out an update that cuts the comp-ability with the older one and force costumers to fallow or just stand in the desert with the old stuff Encryption will even enforce that strategy. just like the Daz team said ! a laser-focused vision of where we are going. After a few tests actually 90 Percent of DS products are fully compatible with Poser without any need of Dyson or whatever that pyton is called to convert into 100% compatible files. all based on Geometry texturing just needs slight adjustments , in some cases there could be issues when DS files have errors in the Bones or the polygons of the geometry are reversed but that just means that the Mesh is crap as Poser does not fix issues by making one sided polygons two sided. I even assume that allot of DS File creators rigged there stuff in poser and just convert em to DS to sell as DS only. naturally G3 is not compatible to Poser at the moment guess because none really sat on that issue to make it compatible . But nothing is really impossible just a question of patience and time. @ Male_M3dia just stumbled on your Vendor account at Daz , it seemed to me that you are not a 3D mesh creator but rather 2D as the Products are based on texturing and morphing , do you also create or sell 3D meshes ? I think there is a Huuge difference on the creation of 3D and Texturing 3D creation needs allot of experience , to make morphs or textures for the Meshes is the Basics of creation or well you always depend on one who Creates a mesh I am just asking because after looking at your store I just saw add ons for Figures but could not find any 3D meshes , and I thought you were a 3D model creator.

  Razor42 ( posted at 7:58PM Mon, 22 February 2016 · edited on 8:04PM Mon, 22 February 2016

I use the latest Beta of 4.9 and 4.9 side by side with little issue. It gives me the functionality of two versions of Studio with all of the latest compatibility and functions. I can't really see any advantage of running 4.9 and 4.5 side by side other than personal preference. I'm honestly glad that DS product development isn't focused on keeping old version functionality as core. A stance that successfully drives innovation and progress within the platform and content. Sure keep old content functionality with new platform versions. But restricting new content to old version capability, because of a fractured market, is in fact more of a ball and chain then anything positive. As far as DSON/Poser issues go it's really the thin edge of a wedge of changes that began a long time ago now. SM made it clear that there position was not to optimise Poser to increase support for third party development, this is the ultimate realisation of that stance. The choice of 3rd party developers to not hamstring their own content development or security simply to fit Poser compatibility is an extension of that same concept initiated by SM. That was the point that SM chose to dig its heels in and say you either chose to create content for Poser or you're on your own with your content. Unfortunately Poser users are now experiencing the other side of that double edged blade of a decision by SM. A fact that numerous people pointed out at the time, only to be branded derogatively as "Daz Fanboys". It makes you wonder if at that point SM had chosen a policy of collaboration with the largest content provider in the market, instead of taking a high ground stance that was ultimately aimed at keeping content developers bound to SM and Poser support, if things would've/could've worked out differently and we could now be dealing with a much more collaborative relationship between the two platforms and by extension much more healthy satellite communities in general. SM chose to restrict Daz 3D content from its own platform for its own benefit and business interests, which many Poser users cheered on as a good move at the time. It's ironic what Poser users now say when Daz 3D has essentially done that very same thing instigated by SM. Made changes to their own content and platform in disregard to third party platforms or consumers of that platform. The DSON/Encryption compatibility issue with Poser is not actually a Daz 3D issue but the realisation of policy stance made by Poser developers, which could possibly leave Poser faithfuls starving for content in the long term. Daz 3D has treated Poser users in a manner no different than SM, who, if anyone, has an obligation and responsibility to that user base.


  Razor42 ( posted at 8:00PM Mon, 22 February 2016 

>t really seems that there is a Marketing War who gets the larger Piece of the Cake , Amazing strategy you addict people on one Program then just adapt it on the actual Income, if income shrinks then you frow out an update that cuts the comp-ability with the older one and force costumers to fallow or just stand in the desert with the old stuff Encryption will even enforce that strategy. This statement is just incorrect on so many levels...


  LPR001 ( posted at 4:10AM Tue, 23 February 2016 

Johnny be hiding under a rock.

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com

  gate ( posted at 5:11AM Tue, 23 February 2016 

@Razor42 At that point I give you right , the program mainly has to support own features and not third party Features, actually it is up to the Artist creators to adapt what is in there needs if they use other programs , as I said there actually is no comp-ability issue between DS and Poser it is just a question of conversion, also verry positive as an artist can go deeper into things and learn on how a mesh is build , as soon as he figures out a way of conversion remake he will start to make hes own stuff. Like a child who starts drawing by copying things learning to get a hand for it. @ Male_M3dia with the above made comment it is not my intention to make critique or to value your ability , it rather was to estimate if I'd make you an offer if you are interested to get a mesh of your choice that you can convert and make texturing and if wished to resell for DS, even if I don't really like you but after I'v seen your store I just thought it might be something you would like to do.

  Male_M3dia ( posted at 7:08AM Tue, 23 February 2016 · edited on 7:17AM Tue, 23 February 2016

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 8:03AM Tue, 23 February 2016 - [#4256797](#msg4256797) > it really seems that there is a Marketing War who gets the larger Piece of the Cake , Amazing strategy you addict people on one Program then just adapt it on the actual Income, if income shrinks then you frow out an update that cuts the comp-ability with the older one and force costumers to fallow or just stand in the desert with the old stuff > > @ Male_M3dia > just stumbled on your Vendor account at Daz , it seemed to me that you are not a 3D mesh creator but rather 2D as the Products are based on texturing and > morphing , do you also create or sell 3D meshes ? I think there is a Huuge difference on the creation of 3D and Texturing > 3D creation needs allot of experience , to make morphs or textures for the Meshes is the Basics of creation or well you always depend on one who Creates a mesh > I am just asking because after looking at your store I just saw add ons for Figures but could not find any 3D meshes , and I thought you were a 3D model creator. I'm trying to understand what this has to do with anything. To make my products I use zbrush, modo and photoshop.. all that I legally own licenses. And the products I sell aren't copyright questionable like you selling meshes based on videogames and a website using copyrighted content. And I sell my products in a much larger store that is picky about whose products they sell through where you sell in a much much smaller market and you're trying to get your foot in a erotic store where genesis-based items is outselling yours. What exactly was your point again other than stirring the pot because you no had other points to work with? Also your products for sale are supporting items for V4 not standalone as well, because your standalone items which aren't original concepts and based on copyrighted items, which couldn't be sold there without renderotica getting in hot water.

  gate ( posted at 7:27AM Tue, 23 February 2016 

@ Male_M3dia See that is the difference between us I don't place critique and try to discriminante stuff other people Create I rather try to if I can offer something. I did not offend what you are doing I did not question it and I don't do personal attacks against your creations and I did not question if the applications you use are legitimate . I would look at the things and Try to find out where is the potential ! but it seems that you do question others . There is not always a trap or something that might wanna damage you we are not all Pirates that wanna rob you out this brings it us to the point of respect for one another .

  LPR001 ( posted at 8:03AM Tue, 23 February 2016 

[gate](https://www.renderosity.com/?uid=84199) posted at 12:08AM Wed, 24 February 2016 - [#4256839](#msg4256839) > @ Male_M3dia > with the above made comment it is not my intention to make critique or to value your ability , it rather was to estimate if I'd make you an offer > if you are interested to get a mesh of your choice that you can convert and make texturing and if wished to resell for DS, even if I don't really like you > but after I'v seen your store I just thought it might be something you would like to do. Looks to me like you are stirring the pot a bit there Mr Gate how can you possibly put - **even if I don't really like you** - and then bring up - **this brings it us to the point of respect for one another .** in your next comment. I am getting a little curious to where this is actually leading. Keep it civil please

- Johnny G