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DAZ|Studio F.A.Q (Updated: 2019 Feb 01 1:12 pm)


 Subject: Daz Studio 4.9 Big Changes Incoming!!

ghosty12 opened this issue on Oct 28, 2015 · 502 posts

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  malwat    ( ) ( posted at 7:43AM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4235932

I do not use modern Photoshop because it is taking my money week in, week out. I prefer to buy things and own them wherever possible - like hard-copies of books. Then, when I want o take them from the shelf I can do so, without relying on external connections and the whims of publishers. DRM using the cloud is definitely not for me, and neither is a subscription service. I have thoroughly enjoyed being addicted to DS for a year or so, but once the pleasure wears off, I am out of here. Why can't companies realise that the people they have on baord should be cherished?

Malwat

Getting younger by the day; getting older by the minute....


  chaecuna    ( ) ( posted at 8:06AM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4235937

Razor42 posted at 2:04PM Fri, 30 October 2015 - #4235913

Sure the next Eula might want the blood of your first born child but then again it might not...

Using your line of reasoning, if I see a mushroom I should eat it without seconds thoughts, since it is known that there are edible mushrooms around... I don't know why but I have some gut feeling that there is something wrong somewhere in this strategy...


  Khory_D    ( ) ( posted at 8:32AM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4235939

" and neither is a subscription service."

I really don't know what yahoo first made up that bs but its someone who has just no clue what the word brokerage means or how a brokerage works. The accounting cost alone would be prohibitive unless the how the whole company was organized. And to do that they would have to get hundreds of people on board. Imagine thousands of individual products starting subscriptions for x time every single day with some being pro rated. Then imagine that the money for those thousands of individual subscriptions having to be properly added to the accounts of hundreds of PA's. Then imagine that on top of that some hundreds of subscriptions expire or are other wise ended. Again some being pro rated if there was a CS issue. The accounting would just be so daunting even if they could get 300 people to sign on to a risky concept like that. And before anyone says "oh but they can just do all buy outs" that way also is crazy talk because it means that the cost of doing business skyrockets into the stratosphere. Brokerages work because they don't have to pre pay for the bulk of the inventory that goes into them.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  HassenBenSobar    ( ) ( posted at 9:46AM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4235949

So I dont like the new strategy that DAZ is using, honestly, I dont want to pick another argument because ive had enough of it. Since August ive been bickering with Renderosity about the new format and prime. Now this happens over at DAZ it seems like it starts all over again. Whether or not DAZ's intentions are innocent only seem to be part of the problem. Im sure all that DAZ wants to do is sell content. Today, the issue really is how someone else with dishonest intentions is going to use your bandwidth. We learned about that here at Renderosity and Hivewire when our cards were hacked. Weve learned about how user accounts on Steam are being hacked. DAZ is entering the DRM fray late and im sure that there are many hackers who are going to go to town and the new encryption. Does DAZ have the resources to commit a full time team protect its encryption? How will this impact the overall goal of improving the render capabilities? Im convinced that the hacker community is purposely targeting the new and shiny while leaving all the old tech in the past, although I have no real evidence to back that up. Thats part of the reason why I dont want to move from the .zip. Anyhow, I was so upset at Rendo that I made no purchases since August and all of a sudden, im back... What can you do?


  klown    ( ) ( posted at 10:50AM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4235958

What you can do is tell them you won't be punished for being a loyal user when their "anti-piracy" measures will only hamper your ability to use the content you pay for. meanwhile the methods they describe to prevent privacy might do little more then delay it, but it far from stops it. Poser are you watching? You should be; Remember when QuarkXPress was king of desktop publishing and InDesign was struggling for a life preserver?


  Khory_D    ( ) ( posted at 11:49AM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4235970

HassenBenSobar posted at 11:36AM Fri, 30 October 2015 - #4235949

So I dont like the new strategy that DAZ is using, honestly, I dont want to pick another argument because ive had enough of it. Since August ive been bickering with Renderosity about the new format and prime. Now this happens over at DAZ it seems like it starts all over again. Whether or not DAZ's intentions are innocent only seem to be part of the problem. Im sure all that DAZ wants to do is sell content. Today, the issue really is how someone else with dishonest intentions is going to use your bandwidth. We learned about that here at Renderosity and Hivewire when our cards were hacked. Weve learned about how user accounts on Steam are being hacked. DAZ is entering the DRM fray late and im sure that there are many hackers who are going to go to town and the new encryption. Does DAZ have the resources to commit a full time team protect its encryption? How will this impact the overall goal of improving the render capabilities? Im convinced that the hacker community is purposely targeting the new and shiny while leaving all the old tech in the past, although I have no real evidence to back that up. Thats part of the reason why I dont want to move from the .zip. Anyhow, I was so upset at Rendo that I made no purchases since August and all of a sudden, im back... What can you do?

It isn't about hackers though is it. It is about thieves who want to make an easy buck by "giving away" stolen content and making money off ad views or subscription services to access those "free" products. Those are people who want easy money not money that takes effort. And if hackers have to waste time that they could be spending trying to make big money hits on little piddling files for "free" "share" sites so be it.

As far as the overall impact on render capabilities.. Do you mean the upgrades added to 3dl and Iray in the new build? There were some speed increases and bug fixes.

I do know that the new version makes smart content easier to work with. I've been resistant to it (old dog/new tricks) in the past but really quite like it now. It is so much more visual and appealing. Plus the info pane has been beefed up and is quite handy.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  Khory_D    ( ) ( posted at 11:57AM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4235972

klown posted at 11:49AM Fri, 30 October 2015 - #4235958

What you can do is tell them you won't be punished for being a loyal user when their "anti-piracy" measures will only hamper your ability to use the content you pay for. meanwhile the methods they describe to prevent privacy might do little more then delay it, but it far from stops it. Poser are you watching? You should be; Remember when QuarkXPress was king of desktop publishing and InDesign was struggling for a life preserver?

The vast majority of users will never even notice the encryption. Maps are not encrypted and those are the things that most users play with if they are going to make changes outside the scope of the program. The only "hampering" is to editing the core text file outside the program. That is something only a very few users feel they need to do.

You really think that Poser/SM is currently in a position financial to do the sort of marketing drive necessary to see any a dramatic enough increase in user numbers? Or that they are willing to make course corrections to even potentially take advantage of ease of use things Studio users would expect to be able to do in a program? Nor is there absolute proof that they have learned there lesson about "phoning home" which Daz did and made sure to not implement.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  -Timberwolf-    ( ) ( posted at 12:44PM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4235985

Can I install that content, where I want it to? And what if I decide to upgrade my hardware every 6 months? Is it the same content system Cornucopia uses for Vue content?


  jestmart    ( ) ( posted at 1:23PM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4235991

If you use the DAZ Connect to install content it will install to the first library listed in Content Directory Manager. It doesn't really matter though as you can only see this content in Smart Content tab or under Products or Categories in the Content Library tab.


  LPR001    ( ) ( posted at 1:33PM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4235992

malwat posted at 3:51AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - #4235932

I do not use modern Photoshop because it is taking my money week in, week out. I prefer to buy things and own them wherever possible - like hard-copies of books.

In some areas what Adobe did was not such a bad thing as there are a lot of people in the world that would have never had the opportunity to buy the Photoshop software outright. There is very early version of PS here you practically had to sell a kidney to buy a copy. Adobe still have their training wheels on with it though CC2014 upgrade to 2015 80% or more that you had purchased from their store was no longer compatible. So each time you started your computer it would give you a flood of install failed CC messages. I paid for these and there are still some that the vendor has not updated and have been unusable for a longer period than I could utilize them in the first place. Cloud issues etc, I always found Daz to be fast paced company and the vendors etc kept up with anything required re updates. Obviously given the advance spec requirements etc. One could say Daz were leaders not followers in most areas So there might be reason why they have been very slow to go down this path (Look and Learn) and there still is a chance they will get it right with a minimum of inconvenience to the user. They probably have even factored in the initial customary bitchin' session which we all know, love and are entitled to do.

I am not so sure on the cloud side it is a wait and see. I don't mind the little shop they have going I can live with it even if a little subliminal while you scroll through your content and the one thing that would suit perfectly is in the next box down. The main thing I have noticed is the render times it does seem to kick along quicker

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com


  HassenBenSobar    ( ) ( posted at 1:59PM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4235993

klown posted at 11:55AM Fri, 30 October 2015 - #4235958

What you can do is tell them you won't be punished for being a loyal user when their "anti-piracy" measures will only hamper your ability to use the content you pay for. meanwhile the methods they describe to prevent privacy might do little more then delay it, but it far from stops it. Poser are you watching? You should be; Remember when QuarkXPress was king of desktop publishing and InDesign was struggling for a life preserver?

Certainly, and I dont intend to pruchase content via DAZ Connect and I wont be purchasing DRM content "offline" bundles. I will take a look at 4.9 eventually but only after its out of beta and only after its had a thorough dissection by the community. If they do offer an offline only version, that will be the way to go for me.


  maxgrafix    ( ) ( posted at 4:45PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 4:46PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · @4236040

I was always wondering how and when this type of anit-piracy measure was going to be introduced.

After chatting with one content creator a few years ago we got round to talking about this very subject. His idea (a joke with a hint of seriousness) was to upload virus infected files to those giving away his content on sharing sites. Amusing at the time, but since there is little or no real protection for content creators like the movie and movie industry have, it was only a matter of time before something like this was implemented.

Regarding DRM. It's been tried, tested and has failed where music and video content is concerned so I can't see it working for DAZ. I'll give it a week or two before the hackers and crackers reverse engineeer the files and post them online.

Then what?


  HassenBenSobar    ( ) ( posted at 4:53PM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4236041

maxgrafix posted at 2:48PM Fri, 30 October 2015 - #4236040

I was always wondering how and when this type of anit-piracy measure was going to be introduced.

After chatting with one content creator a few years ago we got round to talking about this very subject. His idea (a joke with a hint of seriousness) was to upload virus infected files to those giving away his content on sharing sites. Amusing at the time, but since there is little or no real protection for content creators like the movie and movie industry have, it was only a matter of time before something like this was implemented.

Regarding DRM. It's been tried, tested and has failed where music and video content is concerned so I can't see it working for DAZ. I'll give it a week or two before the hackers and crackers reverse engineeer the files and post them online.

Then what?

I think it may have been the first Batman game, Arkham Asylum, they purposely coded a bug that would reproduce if the game detected that it was illegal. If I remember correctly, in the tutorial sequence where Batman has to make his way across the gargoyles for the first time, Batman would not leap from the gargoyles leaving the game soft locked. I think code like that would be a super creative alternative to drm. I just never heard of anyone else trying something like that.


  maxgrafix    ( ) ( posted at 5:01PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 5:08PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · @4236044

HassenBenSobar posted at 9:57PM Fri, 30 October 2015 - #4236041

maxgrafix posted at 2:48PM Fri, 30 October 2015 - #4236040

I was always wondering how and when this type of anit-piracy measure was going to be introduced.

After chatting with one content creator a few years ago we got round to talking about this very subject. His idea (a joke with a hint of seriousness) was to upload virus infected files to those giving away his content on sharing sites. Amusing at the time, but since there is little or no real protection for content creators like the movie and movie industry have, it was only a matter of time before something like this was implemented.

Regarding DRM. It's been tried, tested and has failed where music and video content is concerned so I can't see it working for DAZ. I'll give it a week or two before the hackers and crackers reverse engineeer the files and post them online.

Then what?

I think it may have been the first Batman game, Arkham Asylum, they purposely coded a bug that would reproduce if the game detected that it was illegal. If I remember correctly, in the tutorial sequence where Batman has to make his way across the gargoyles for the first time, Batman would not leap from the gargoyles leaving the game soft locked. I think code like that would be a super creative alternative to drm. I just never heard of anyone else trying something like that.

Interesting indeed. After reading through the DAZ forums regarding DS 4.9 it appears many are against the idea of DRM content. I'll keep a close eye over the next few months to see how it pans out.


  Writers_Block    ( ) ( posted at 5:47PM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4236059

Well I've just asked for a large refund, I don't like how it's being handled. I'm not against them protecting their products, I'm against them refusing to answer how we can be sure we won't lose access to it.

Way too many posts have been removed.


  Khory_D    ( ) ( posted at 7:14PM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4236069

"I am not so sure on the cloud side it is a wait and see."

Why? Nothing bad has happened with DIM and it is the exact same sort of cloud set up.

"I'm not against them protecting their products, I'm against them refusing to answer how we can be sure we won't lose access to it."

I'm not sure how many more ways they have to say stuff. First, you can always keep using DIM or zips. Second, the only way you lose access is if something goes wrong on your computer. Pretty much the same kind of goes wrong that would nuke the serial number in the program itself. Once you have the content on your computer its there till you remove it. The cloud stores content you have not yet installed or have removed. If you install it it is on your computer. This is basically the same exact set up as DIM that people have been using for several years now. The only big change is ease of use for those of us who want that.

www.Calida3d.com
Daz studio and Poser content creators

  LPR001    ( ) ( posted at 7:57PM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4236072

@Writers_Block With Daz or any Biz/Co if you entered a contract to purchase goods between this date and that date and clicked agree you have purchased them under those rules and conditions as with any business transaction you keep your records and a copy of the agreed terms. I have always had a good run with Daz and do rate them highly with their conduct and if I have had an issue which is only a handful in all these years it has always gone in my favour and they have fixed the issue. I am sure Daz are getting the message loud and clear about people's feelings and I seriously doubt they are going to block access to a customer's previous purchases nor was it ever their intention. Besides if they did I would just say "Don't make me jump in my Volkswagen and head down there to sort this out" they will know I am already ticked off and on the warpath. I have spent a lot of money on content there and I fully expect that content to remain in my possession long after this all dies down

- Johnny G

"Try animation to get things moving"

lpr001@renderosity.com


  Razor42    ( ) ( posted at 8:35PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 8:48PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · @4236078

"Using your line of reasoning, if I see a mushroom I should eat it without seconds thoughts, since it is known that there are edible mushrooms around... I don't know why but I have some gut feeling that there is something wrong somewhere in this strategy..."

Using your own line of reasoning someone says "aliens are coming" I should rush to the store and buy tin foil and start practicing my hat making skills. I prefer relying on rationality and practical reasoning to determine the difference between a field mushroom and fly agaric. Ref: The sky is falling


"DRM using the cloud is definitely not for me, and neither is a subscription service."

For a start who said anything about Subscriptions and DS. Basically using DIM is using a form of cloud server... Did you have any issue with DIM? So I take it you don't game, use modern software or buy music? All of these feature forms of DRM and cloud servers. Ref: Cloud Computing


"Does DAZ have the resources to commit a full time team protect its encryption? How will this impact the overall goal of improving the render capabilities?"

Currently Daz and Renderosity and other products have a security level of 0. Thats right 'keys left in the ignition' ripe for harvest from anyone who can download a file and reupload to Warez. This step isn't about restriction of use or even defeating a pirate armada, it's about taking the key out of the ignition and locking the doors. Making it just that bit harder for a pirate to casually steal what they will. As far as render capabilities 4.9 has improvements in both Iray and 3Delight.


"What you can do is tell them you won't be punished for being a loyal user when their "anti-piracy" measures will only hamper your ability to use the content you pay for."

So your hampered in which way by using Daz Connect may I ask? So you don't believe in any Anti piracy measures at all, wow, let me ask do you have a firewall on your computer? ...


Can I install that content, where I want it to? And what if I decide to upgrade my hardware every 6 months?

Yes you can set Daz Connect to install where you want you just need to do your organisation of products within studio now and not by using the OS as a database manager. You're free to upgrade as much as you like you can backup and migrate your database and you just need to initialise your new version of DS when installed on your new machine


"If they do offer an offline only version, that will be the way to go for me."

It's already there instead of logging in when launching DS 4.9 just tick work offline.


"Regarding DRM. It's been tried, tested and has failed where music and video content is concerned so I can't see it working for DAZ. I'll give it a week or two before the hackers and crackers reverse engineer the files and post them online."

Really? well it should be no issue to name a movie or music or game online supplier that uses no form of DRM then right? How long would it take the Hackers and crackers to get onto your system if they wanted? Do you take any precautions on your own system or posessions to make it more difficult for theft if it was attempted. Why should Daz3D not do the same. If reasonable measure can be taken to make theft more difficult why should they not be taken?


"I think it may have been the first Batman game, Arkham Asylum, they purposely coded a bug that would reproduce if the game detected that it was illegal."

This is a form of DRM, so are code wheels and Manual word references, DRM can refer to any means digital or physical used to protect the rights of an digital contents owner. What is DRM?


"I'm against them refusing to answer how we can be sure we won't lose access to it."

I have seen this answered numerous times on the Daz Forums developers and moderators are participating in at least three threads I know of answering and even listening to issues, let me ask you how can you reassure me we all won't die tomorrow in a massive global earthquake? Better still can you guarantee me it won't happen ever? Your refund just punished a load of PA's that's all. So you're not against them protecting their product just against them actually protecting their product. May I ask what you would do differently to protect content in this industry? Daz3D have outlayed plans for a strategy for dealing with worst case scenarios such as Daz3D disappearing overnight which which would be in the form of a failsafe that unlocks all encryption on products.



  chaecuna    ( ) ( posted at 8:38PM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4236079

LPR001 posted at 2:12AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - #4236072

and I fully expect that content to remain in my possession long after this all dies down

Until the deal is further altered.

If DAZ manages to impose this step, they can (and will) go further down the software-as-service road. The "logical" next step is everything-is-"free" but then you have to pay a small amount whenever you try to render or export a scene. It is not far fetched, it is like what happens in pay-per-view video services where you have to pay whenever you watch a movie, regardless of whether you have already watched in the past (contrast with buying a DVD and then being able to watch the movie without further costs, as many times as you like).

Perversely, there is a positive side in this story. Up to a couple of days ago, I considered Richard Stallman insistence on free-as-speech (w.r.t. to just free-as-beer) extremist, almost taliban-like. I have now realized that this stance is instead fundamental, because it means that, as long as you deal with free-as-speech tools and content, you are never at risk of waking up in the morning at the sound of a big, black-clad brute, wheezing that the "deal has been altered". The time and money I invest in e.g. Blender or GIMP won't go down the drain tomorrow at the wim of some PHB/marketdroid/bean counter and therefore... back to my project of a library of Cycles shaders for rendering Poser/Studio characters into Blender, the first step to kiss everybody (SM and DAZ) bye bye.


  Razor42    ( ) ( posted at 8:57PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 9:05PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · @4236081

chaecuna posted at 12:52PM Sat, 31 October 2015 - #4236079

LPR001 posted at 2:12AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - #4236072

and I fully expect that content to remain in my possession long after this all dies down

Until the deal is further altered.

If DAZ manages to impose this step, they can (and will) go further down the software-as-service road. The "logical" next step is everything-is-"free" but then you have to pay a small amount whenever you try to render or export a scene. It is not far fetched, it is like what happens in pay-per-view video services where you have to pay whenever you watch a movie, regardless of whether you have already watched in the past (contrast with buying a DVD and then being able to watch the movie without further costs, as many times as you like).

Wow, this would be a nightmare to work out payments for the PA's that create the majority of products at DAZ3D, nightmarish to the point of making it actually completely unworkable or even impossible. A full analysis of every scene rendered by every user, then a breakdown of which items were more important in the scene (Psychical Artistic analysis of each complete render), a breakdown would then need to be generated across up to a potential of 100's of different PA's work in every scene rendered by every user 100,000's of time a day. Sounds like it would need a computer bigger than the NSA... All with the potential of making less money for each PA and DAZ3D as a whole with massive implementation costs.
Any proof for this or just more sky is falling talk?.. See above reference...

Perversely, there is a positive side in this story. Up to a couple of days ago, I considered Richard Stallman insistence on free-as-speech (w.r.t. to just free-as-beer) extremist, almost taliban-like. I have now realized that this stance is instead fundamental, because it means that, as long as you deal with free-as-speech tools and content, you are never at risk of waking up in the morning at the sound of a big, black-clad brute, wheezing that the "deal has been altered". The time and money I invest in e.g. Blender or GIMP won't go down the drain tomorrow at the wim of some PHB/marketdroid/bean counter and therefore... back to my project of a library of Cycles shaders for rendering Poser/Studio characters into Blender, the first step to kiss everybody (SM and DAZ) bye bye.

Nothing is %100 guaranteed in life. Even life itself.

SO the first step to kissing SM and DAZ goodbye is working out how to implement SM and DAZ3D figures into Blender. I see. Seems that using Blender without SM or DAZ3D figures or making your own would be the first step? Or am I oversimplifying...



  JasonGalterio    ( ) ( posted at 9:38PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 9:39PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · @4236087

I have said more than my fair share on the official site's thread... but consider this...

DAZ has had a very questionable history of non-communication, double talk, and out right going back on their own promises. It should surprise no one, them least of all, that customers are assuming the worst from this development.

Their roll out / announcement of it was bungled, again, and started the paranoia fire. They compounded the issue by being heavy handed with the message deletion and mod modification.

I have no proof of it, but I am willing to bet that last year's price increases are the cause of this year's DRM plans. Prices goes up, sales go down, piracy increases because the perceived value has increased, discounts become more extreme, the sale price brings the new increased price down to the old prices. The vicious circle just feeds on itself.

The executive that came up with the plan to raise the prices can't blame the downturn in revenue on their increase the price policy, so pirates are blamed.

All of this is theoretical conjecture on my part.

Am I saying piracy is not a problem? No. Am I saying that DAZ shouldn't find a way to protect the PAs and their assets? No. Am I saying that DAZ has completed effed up the roll out? Yes. They poisoned the well before the water was even drawn. They snuck out this new direction and acted like they had something to hide. So no one should be surprised that customers are questioning the motivation as well as the future direction of their plans.

You know what is not theoretical? All the previous broken promises. Selling DS4 for an extreme amount of money, then turning around and giving it away for free a month later. Promising there would be no more "barn burner" sales, then having one six months later.

I've been a DAZ customer for, I believe, 20 years, since the Zygote days. I've been through Metacreations meltdown. The Corel days. I was there when Canoma was unveiled. etc. etc. I've been up and down this roller coaster so often that I am use to almost all of the bumps and curves.


  Razor42    ( ) ( posted at 10:12PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 10:21PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · @4236090

Content Advisory! Language advisory.

I believe the price increases were due to nothing more sinister than inflation. There had not been a generalised price increase for well over a decade before that. Does any other form of goods you know have that stability of pricing for such long terms?

It really wouldn't of mattered how a lot of the things you have described were handled, some people would still have adverse reactions regardless to the implementations such as DS becoming free, Piracy protection, etc. When DS became free if they said anyone who purchased in the last 6 months will receive a full refund, people who were 6 months and 1 day would be pissed, no? In my experience even a company which is totally transparent, A Nobel prize winning communicator, entirely direct and forthright in every aspect will still have critics and detractors. If you have stuck with DAZ3D for 20 years they must be doing something right, no?

I have had posts deleted from the Daz Forum threads on 4.9 and for the sake of clarity of the thread I welcome the sweep throughs by the mods on those threads, as they were becoming bloated and unwieldly to the point of being useless as information resources.



  JasonGalterio    ( ) ( posted at 10:33PM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4236091

Actually most of your points are incorrect. Or at least stretching the truth to suit your position.

Prices... The prices use to be a lot higher. Then dropped for a while. They stabilized for a few years. Then started an increase trend last year. For example, in 2004 when I purchased the Millennium Dragon it was $99 for just the model, texture and poses. V3 with just the head and body morphs was $79.

The prices went down. Then the ship started to loose direction. Lots of different things were thrown at the wall to see what would work. For a while, these were good. Innovations. Investments that yielded new products. That's how we got DAZ Studio. Back then there was no such beast. It came about because of a spat with whoever happened to be the owner of Poser at that time.

Then things started to get bad. Barn burner sales. Overnight changes in direction. Lack of communication. At three points it got so bad that I stepped away for years at a time.

Then it stabilized for a while. Things seemed to be improving. Then the ship lost direction again last year. Things thrown at the wall. 3D printing. Gaming licenses. etc. etc. None of them really seeming to work out.

Here's a secret for you... When DS went free; they were giving out refunds. You had to call them directly and plead your case. This happened repeatedly. DS4. The Auto Fit tool. Carrara Pro. The Supersuit bundle. etc. etc.

Yes, some people would have had a bad reaction no matter what. But if the things in the past hadn't happened, then the number of people having a bad reaction right now would probably be a lot less.


  Razor42    ( ) ( posted at 10:48PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · edited on 10:48PM Fri, 30 October 2015 · @4236093

"Then it stabilized for a while. Things seemed to be improving. Then the ship lost direction again last year. Things thrown at the wall. 3D printing. Gaming licenses. etc. etc. None of them really seeming to work out."

Forgive me but is not the basis of innovation, being brave enough to attempt new idea and markets whether successful or not. I would hardly consider any of these things as "lost direction' in fact the gaming licences lead directly to Morph3D. The issue with 3D printing isnt Daz3D its that 3D printing is in its infancy as an industry, with no steady suppliers of machines, consumables or maintenance available globally.

So just to recap you stated you think maybe DRM influenced last years price increase. I can tell you from the information I have that is not the case it was mainly motivated by inflation factors.



  Male_M3dia    ( ) ( posted at 11:00PM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4236094

Razor42 posted at 11:55PM Fri, 30 October 2015 - #4236093

So just to recap you stated you think maybe DRM influenced last years price increase. I can tell you from the information I have that is not the case it was mainly motivated by inflation factors.

Razor is correct. Nothing sinister happened, the issue is products were undervalued (especially with inflation), with some instances of some vendors undercutting or devaluing their own products. Seems like all the forums across the DAZ-verse are rife with speculation these last few days.


  JasonGalterio    ( ) ( posted at 11:24PM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4236096

You say inflation, I say self inflicted wound.

Repeatedly having these insane, nonsensical sales that they didn't even understand the ramifications of. I have ranted about the "cutesy" gimmicky sales for what seems like decade now. Discounts go up, base price goes up. The actual purchase price remained the same.

They created a customer base that knows not to buy at full price. The average customer knows to buy early on sale or to wait for a sale to come along. I am willing to bet the items selling at the full base price are an extreme minority of all sales.

And yes, trying new things is the definition of innovation. However trying a half a dozen different things at the same time and not really putting much effort into all of them... That is what the average customer sees. Then not communicating only leads to more speculation.

At the very least you can admit that their handling of this fiasco has been piss poor. The communication is coming through the forum in a mostly non-official way. Messages containing promises being made by DAZ employees seem to be getting altered or just disappearing. There is no official statement on any part of the site other than the forum. There doesn't appear to be a road map for where this ride is heading.

Because of this, the speculation begins. Speculation then leads to rumors. Rumors then lead to accusations of wrong doing.

Certain DAZ employees are doing an admirable job of trying to reassure customers. However no one knows if they are speaking in any sort of official capacity. No one knows if they can be trusted. Or if they even have the real story from their higher ups. Why all of the distrust? Because of all the broken promises and non-communication of the past.

I don't begrudge you, or anyone else, for wanting to protect your assets. I would be livid if all my hard work was pirated on a regular basis.

However DRM is notoriously bad. It doesn't stop the pirates. It barely even slows them down. Most of the time it just annoys the legitimate users. It serves no positive purpose to anyone. The scheme they have come up with will not protect your assets. It will not stop the pirates. It will not increase sales. It will just be a waste of resources.

It also doesn't help when, to the average customer, it appears to already be bungled in the roll out. I know beta testing is meant to address this and refine the effort. However so far this just smells of a half baked effort. It doesn't appear to have been completely thought through. Particularly when developers are saying things like "we didn't think of that. And this is important enough that I am going in on my day off to work on it."

Yes, on one hand it is reassuring that it is being taken that seriously. On the other hand it makes people nervous that something so important was completely overlooked.

I am being objective. I am not being irrational. I am not threatening to never buy another DAZ product. I am not screaming for anyone's blood. I don't feel betrayed. I am taking a wait and see position.

However I am not optimistic that it will end well. DAZ has a track record of trying these new things. Setting off down the path. Then just giving up without getting to the destination. Leaving behind a half completed project that we have to suffer with.

All I ask of you is this... How will you feel if your first release with DRM is pirated just as quickly as the previous releases. And, ontop of that, the sales are less because of said DRM? I would think that if my worst fears are realized, you would not continue creating or selling things through DAZ. You would be foolish to do so if you were continually loosing money.

So you stop. And who looses? DAZ does, they've lost assets they could sell. The customer looses because they can no longer purchase your items. You loose because of the lost revenue. No one wins.

Do I think this worst case scenario is going to happen? No. Is the potential there? Yes.

Again, I am taking a wait and see position to see how things shake out once it goes live. I don't have any plans of using DAZ Connect because it really offers me no benefits. I don't use Smart Content. I am happy using DIM to update, in fact I run DIM every morning to check for updates.


  JasonGalterio    ( ) ( posted at 11:38PM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4236097

Male_M3dia posted at 12:30AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - #4236094

Razor42 posted at 11:55PM Fri, 30 October 2015 - #4236093

So just to recap you stated you think maybe DRM influenced last years price increase. I can tell you from the information I have that is not the case it was mainly motivated by inflation factors.

Razor is correct. Nothing sinister happened, the issue is products were undervalued (especially with inflation), with some instances of some vendors undercutting or devaluing their own products. Seems like all the forums across the DAZ-verse are rife with speculation these last few days.

I never said there was something sinister going on. I merely said I understood why some people would think there is.

And speculation occurs when there is no official information. Which is the case now. Comments buried in a forum is not a very good way to official announce such a monumental change.

When I originally bought my items, I bought them without DRM. I am not too keen on having DRM inserted into them after the fact. That right there is a questionable tactic to take. Am I going to cry foul over it? Nope. It's not important enough to me at the moment. However I might change my opinion when it actually happens and I see the results.

I believe Razor used the car sale analogy over on the other thread. So I am going to use that here...

Adding DRM after the fact is like my taking my car in for service and finding that they added new locks to the car without asking me. Maybe a fingerprint sensor that would keep anyone else from starting my car even if they had the keys. But then what happens if I am 500 miles from home and the fingerprint scanner breaks? I don't think I would be too happy if I was stranded and not able to start my car...


  JasonGalterio    ( ) ( posted at 11:48PM Fri, 30 October 2015  · @4236099

Last comment before I log off...

I did some quick research earlier this evening. I found that I spent just over $10k USD at DAZ since June of 2013. I have no idea if that is a lot or nothing compared to the average DAZ customer, but to me that is a lot of money. Particularly for a hobby. It's almost half the price of a decent car.

I don't even want to think about what my total spent is. I have 967 orders on record with DAZ. I only went back 400 of them as part of this exercise.

Considering that I think I am being really calm concerning this out of the blue change.


  Razor42    ( ) ( posted at 12:10AM Sat, 31 October 2015  · @4236101

I think perspective and as you have described rationality are pretty key assets for this situation. Unfortunately in a lot of cases both are in short supply.

The level of DRM we're talking about here is no more intrusive than itunes or many, many other online content providers. To the average user it will be pretty much be unnoticeable, to the average pirate the first hurdle ever put in place to attempt to protect this kind of product. No one thinks this is a silver bullet for piracy, but to do nothing is to just let even the most novice of individual free to exploit this content, however they please with NO barriers in doing so. To hackers and crackers potentially a challenge for their ego.

Unfortunately perception to the customer is any protection on top of No protection is a big jump even if it has minimal impact and appears rather threatening. To basically say pirates are too good we can never win. So let's not bother may work for multi billion dollar industries but for niche markets it could be the difference between survival and going under if not mitigated adequately in the long term.

DAZ3D has more to lose from piracy then say a store like Renderosity as DAZ3D it has a lot more financially invested in the development and the future of the industry. Renderosity can mitigate the loss as they really have no actual investment in content, programs or future developments of the industry.

Wait and see is the nature of most business these day when trying something new, but those that fail to move forward are inevitably falling behind. Risk and innovation go hand in hand. And other cliches... Personally whatever the long term outcome is, I'm glad that DAZ3D are attempting to make a difference into what content creators & creatives globally see as one of the primary threats to their livelihoods. To do otherwise would display more a lack of care and consideration of their contributors to just accept this as collateral loss.

As far as piss poor handling, I guess that's a matter of personal opinion, but remember this is a beta phase for DS not an official version release.



  Male_M3dia    ( ) ( posted at 12:12AM Sat, 31 October 2015  · @4236102

JasonGalterio posted at 1:08AM Sat, 31 October 2015 - #4236099

Last comment before I log off...

I did some quick research earlier this evening. I found that I spent just over $10k USD at DAZ since June of 2013. I have no idea if that is a lot or nothing compared to the average DAZ customer, but to me that is a lot of money. Particularly for a hobby. It's almost half the price of a decent car.

I don't even want to think about what my total spent is. I have 967 orders on record with DAZ. I only went back 400 of them as part of this exercise.

Considering that I think I am being really calm concerning this out of the blue change.

That's all you spent? I have over almost 1300 orders and I sell. And as far as speculating, I would suggest waiting and getting all the information before getting too upset.


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