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Poser F.A.Q (Updated: 2019 Jan 31 1:28 pm)


 Subject: casting shadows???

DarkElegance opened this issue on Apr 19, 2015 · 48 posts

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  DarkElegance    ( ) ( posted at 7:21PM Sun, 19 April 2015 

I am about to pull my hair out!

I have done this scene...figure, water, stones...I have set up sky lights. Sun, spec and HDR.

I want to have light as if through leaves. This use to be easy. I did a square, did a black and white map of leaves and used it as a transmap and the light would caste the shadows.

Tried it...no go.

Adjusted it....still no go.

SO I thought, ok Ill use it like a gel on the light...it did caste shadows but oddly..on the figure the shadows were great..but behind her on the stones the shadows were smaller and too dark....as if the tile was smaller there.

I also noted the water was not getting any shadows on it.

SO i tried different ways of using the "gel"..but still was having the issue of size of shadows on different things in the scene....

I am using pp2012 on windows 7 64bit.

ANYWAY (short of having trees in the shot..which didnt work either btw) of getting even, shadows for this?

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  Miss Nancy    ( ) ( posted at 2:26PM Mon, 20 April 2015 · edited on 2:31PM Mon, 20 April 2015 · @4200612

with raytracing on and raytraced lites, transmapped objs (e.g. hair, leaves) will cast shadows (slow render).

poser shadowcatcher don't work with IDL

will also work with poser 4 depth-map lites if you know how to use 'em.



  DarkElegance    ( ) ( posted at 4:31PM Mon, 20 April 2015  · @4200633

o.0

I have ray trace shadows. bounces are 4

it still not leaving "leaves shadows".

And when I use a "gel" on the light(sun) the shadows are great on the figure but are odd (small, dark and repeating far to much) on the rocks and grass...

IDL is not on.

My Portfolio on DA http://art-of-darkelegance.daportfolio.com 

My Shadowness gallery http://shadowness.com/DarkElegance

Commission open.


  Boni    ( ) ( posted at 4:42PM Mon, 20 April 2015  · @4200636

Could you show us a couple renders to help us understand? 

Boni



"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 6:58AM Tue, 21 April 2015 · edited on 6:59AM Tue, 21 April 2015 · @4200707

Without a picture, I'd have to guess that you don't know what you don't know. Either you've set it up in some strange way that you didn't tell us, or you're misinterpreting what equally spaced shadows really look like when perspective and angles come into play.

I set up a gel on an infinite light here, with a repeating leaf mask. No matter where I place my pawns, they seem to be covered by five leaves, and exactly the same number are missing from the curved background prop. I see no evidence that the repeats are in any way changing from one object to another.

file_202cb962ac59075b964b07152d234b70.jp


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 7:13AM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200710

Also, a one-sided square with a transparency mask on it works exactly as I'd expect, letting light pass through only where it is transparent.

file_a8f15eda80c50adb0e71943adc8015cf.jp


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 7:15AM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200711

My last post did not appear even after refreshing many times - perhaps adding this post will make it appear.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 7:16AM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200712

I knew I should not come in here. I knew it. If this shows up, whoever is reading it, you need to understand that it did NOT show up when I wrote it.


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  DarkElegance    ( ) ( posted at 9:58AM Tue, 21 April 2015 · edited on 10:02AM Tue, 21 April 2015 · @4200722

I knew I should not come in here. I knew it. If this shows up, whoever is reading it, you need to understand that it did NOT show up when I wrote it.

o.0 Ok this is how the set up goes.

Those are the render settingsfile_a3c65c2974270fd093ee8a9bf8ae7d0b.jp

Then we have a partcial render(just to save time from it trying to do the whole thing...it shows the lack of shadows I am talking about) this is with a square set between the figure and the "sun" and using an alpha map to try and caste "leaf" shadows its not too bad on the form in front of her..but its not what I need on her nor the water.file_698d51a19d8a121ce581499d7b701668.jp

This one is with a "gel" on the lights. I like the shadows on HER but on the background etc the shadows do not look right and again nothing on the water...file_65b9eea6e1cc6bb9f0cd2a47751a186f.jp

So I need to get the shadows as lovely as they are on -her- and I need something on the water surface to show the leaf shadows.

This is my square setting file_084b6fbb10729ed4da8c3d3f5a3ae7c9.jp

My Portfolio on DA http://art-of-darkelegance.daportfolio.com 

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  obm890    ( ) ( posted at 10:15AM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200724

In reality, unless the water is really scummy I don't think you'd get much of a shadow cast on the water surface. You might get reflections of the dark leaves against the sky, but that's not the same thing.



  DarkElegance    ( ) ( posted at 10:40AM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200731

In reality, unless the water is really scummy I don't think you'd get much of a shadow cast on the water surface. You might get reflections of the dark leaves against the sky, but that's not the same thing.

no you get shadows on water...like this

1512291686_6e9693e8d9.jpg

My Portfolio on DA http://art-of-darkelegance.daportfolio.com 

My Shadowness gallery http://shadowness.com/DarkElegance

Commission open.


  DarkElegance    ( ) ( posted at 10:42AM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200733

In reality, unless the water is really scummy I don't think you'd get much of a shadow cast on the water surface. You might get reflections of the dark leaves against the sky, but that's not the same thing.

or this288reres.jpg

My Portfolio on DA http://art-of-darkelegance.daportfolio.com 

My Shadowness gallery http://shadowness.com/DarkElegance

Commission open.


  obm890    ( ) ( posted at 11:34AM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200736

no you get shadows on water...like this

I would argue that those shadows are more in the water than on it, this photo from that same photographer shows it:
212refres.jpg

the water has to be quite murky for shadows to be visible (and the shadows are on the murk, in the same way as you can get shadows on smoke or fog). I've just been in my kitchen with a flashlight and 2 mugs of water, one clean, one murky (diluted leftover milky coffee). To get a visible shadow on/in the water it has to be so murky that you can't see the bottom of the mug. As you dilute it with clean water the shadow gets weaker and then fals directly on the bottom of the mug. Can Poser render murky water? I've never tried.



  DarkElegance    ( ) ( posted at 11:38AM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200738

no you get shadows on water...like this

I would argue that those shadows are more in the water than on it, this photo from that same photographer shows it:
212refres.jpg

the water has to be quite murky for shadows to be visible (and the shadows are on the murk, in the same way as you can get shadows on smoke or fog). I've just been in my kitchen with a flashlight and 2 mugs of water, one clean, one murky (diluted leftover milky coffee). To get a visible shadow on/in the water it has to be so murky that you can't see the bottom of the mug. As you dilute it with clean water the shadow gets weaker and then fals directly on the bottom of the mug. Can Poser render murky water? I've never tried.

and that is like the water I am doing in the scene...its pond water....so I am trying to get the shadows on the water as well

My Portfolio on DA http://art-of-darkelegance.daportfolio.com 

My Shadowness gallery http://shadowness.com/DarkElegance

Commission open.


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 11:42AM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200739

The square setting is wrong because you also enabled the falloff transparency, thus it becomes completely transparent as the angle of incidence decreases.

You should either set Transparency_Falloff to 0 to disable the Transparency_Edge, or configure Transparency and Transparency_Edge identically. You have the same number (1) but you did not connect the image to both so the strength of your shadows will approach zero if the camera is "looking" at that square edge-wise (even if we don't see the square).

Once you correct this, the square will produce consistent shadows just as the gel does.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 11:46AM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200741

For pond water, your shader must have some diffuse in it, and it looks to me like you are not doing the Fresnel effect properly so it looks pretty fake.

There is a recent thread where I posted a lot of links to water tutorials - one of them discusses murky pond water quite a bit.

Go to the thread "on rendering water" and you'll find the links. The one where I wrote (pond, lake, river) is where you want to go but I suggest you read all of them.

file_444399.jpg


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 11:50AM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200743

One of the threads I linked to has this particular post which discusses more options for rendering volumetric shadows in water.

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2634674&page_number=2#msg2639621

file_287712.jpg


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  Miss Nancy    ( ) ( posted at 11:50AM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200745

Content Advisory! Nudity advisory.

this one has muddy waters.  shadow seems to scatter down, but I don't recall settings.  probly diffuse, but scatter may be better if it weren't just single surface.

display_2425893.jpgfile_045117b0e0a11a242b9765e79cbf113f.jp



  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 11:53AM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200746

Now regarding the apparent size of the leaf shadows:

It's clear to me they're doing exactly what they're supposed to. The reason the leaf shapes are stretched out on the figure is because her skin surfaces are nearly vertical.

Put a flat box right above her shoulder and render again to see how small the projected shadows really are. Then progressively tilt that to be more vertical and render again.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 11:54AM Tue, 21 April 2015 · edited on 11:56AM Tue, 21 April 2015 · @4200749

"probly diffuse, but scatter may be better if it weren't just single surface."

Yeah but let's not complicate the matter. We've got 3 things wrong already that are actually Poser 6-level basic stuff. You're peeling the 4th layer of the onion a bit early.

The information I'm linking to is from 2006!!!


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 11:58AM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200750

I also see you have GC enabled, but configured for Gamma=1. This effectively disables GC.

Not sure what you're trying to do but that setup is neither on nor off.

Of course I'm going to point out that you're going to struggle and tweak and constantly test render (unlike me, where I render once and done) if you render without gamma.


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  Miss Nancy    ( ) ( posted at 12:31PM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200752

oops! sorry bout dat! I ain't got P6.

thx fr explanation of leaf shadows.



  DarkElegance    ( ) ( posted at 12:57PM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200759

The square setting is wrong because you also enabled the falloff transparency, thus it becomes completely transparent as the angle of incidence decreases.

You should either set Transparency_Falloff to 0 to disable the Transparency_Edge, or configure Transparency and Transparency_Edge identically. You have the same number (1) but you did not connect the image to both so the strength of your shadows will approach zero if the camera is "looking" at that square edge-wise (even if we don't see the square).

Once you correct this, the square will produce consistent shadows just as the gel does.

ok I changed the settings on the square. this is the outcome so far file_f2217062e9a397a1dca429e7d70bc6ca.jpand here is the new settings on the squarefile_f899139df5e1059396431415e770c6dd.jpits still not like the "gel" light I made. Am I doing something wrong still?

I love the look of the "gel" shadows but...they are odd on the rocks etc.

My Portfolio on DA http://art-of-darkelegance.daportfolio.com 

My Shadowness gallery http://shadowness.com/DarkElegance

Commission open.


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:00PM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200760

Perspective and angles have a dramatic impact on perception. I really think you should work with some simple white props until you have a firm grasp of what to expect. Also - this has the benefit of producing a render in 10 seconds or less which permits vastly more effective experimentation.

Here is a scene I set up with a gel similar to yours. Two renders with different camera focal lengths and perspective (position) reveal a big change in the apparent size of foreground vs. background shadows. If this isn't clear to you, then do 100 renders like this - your brain will learn what to expect without you thinking about it.

Here it is with the camera focal length at 26 mm

file_140f6969d5213fd0ece03148e62e461e.jp

And here with the camera focal length at 91 mm

file_8d5e957f297893487bd98fa830fa6413.jp


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  DarkElegance    ( ) ( posted at 1:16PM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200764

I also see you have GC enabled, but configured for Gamma=1. This effectively disables GC.

Not sure what you're trying to do but that setup is neither on nor off.

Of course I'm going to point out that you're going to struggle and tweak and constantly test render (unlike me, where I render once and done) if you render without gamma.

:S I was using suggested render settings.

My Portfolio on DA http://art-of-darkelegance.daportfolio.com 

My Shadowness gallery http://shadowness.com/DarkElegance

Commission open.


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:16PM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200765

"its still not like the "gel" light I made. Am I doing something wrong still?"

Probably. You're not telling me what you're doing. I can only guess.

You forgot to enable the shadows. (need them enabled)

You're using depth-mapped shadows. (they cannot do the detail you want in a large outdoor scene - use raytraced)

You forgot to enable raytracing.

The "Shadow" setting on your light is 0 - should be 1.

I'm pretty sure it's something like that because you haven't got any shadows at all, anywhere.

You'd notice if you'd just do some simple white-object tests instead of dealing with a thousand complexities.

I also can't see where you've placed your square so I can't tell if it even is in the right location.

Look at my picture - reproduce this - it took me 1 minute to assemble. From start to finish. How long are you rendering? (Answer: too long to learn what is going on)

file_2723d092b63885e0d7c260cc007e8b9d.jp


Renderosity forum reply notifications have been wonky in the past. I'm testing the waters to see if it's working now. If you ask me something and I don't come back, it probably isn't. (Updated January 17, 2017)

  DarkElegance    ( ) ( posted at 1:21PM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200766

Perspective and angles have a dramatic impact on perception. I really think you should work with some simple white props until you have a firm grasp of what to expect. Also - this has the benefit of producing a render in 10 seconds or less which permits vastly more effective experimentation.

Here is a scene I set up with a gel similar to yours. Two renders with different camera focal lengths and perspective (position) reveal a big change in the apparent size of foreground vs. background shadows. If this isn't clear to you, then do 100 renders like this - your brain will learn what to expect without you thinking about it.

Here it is with the camera focal length at 26 mm

file_140f6969d5213fd0ece03148e62e461e.jp

And here with the camera focal length at 91 mm

file_8d5e957f297893487bd98fa830fa6413.jp

hmm see in this one

file_2a79ea27c279e471f4d180b08d62b00a.jp

I adore the shadows on her, on the lotus...but not on the rocks. That is the "gel" on the light(sun)

but on the latest one I did...I cant get the shame effect with just using the square infront of the light to caste shadows.

Is there anyway to get this gel look with using the square?

also I am going to change the water to your settings...but will it allow part of her tail being visible? in the one I am using its distorted like water but still slightly visible.

My Portfolio on DA http://art-of-darkelegance.daportfolio.com 

My Shadowness gallery http://shadowness.com/DarkElegance

Commission open.


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:27PM Tue, 21 April 2015 · edited on 1:27PM Tue, 21 April 2015 · @4200767

Regarding your suggested settings - the right settings depend on many things.

But for speedy test renders those are horrible.

Make the following changes to speed things up until you're ready to do a final render.

Subsurface Scattering: Off

Raytrace bounces: 1

Irradiance caching: 30

Pixel Samples: 1

Min shading rate: 1

Using the settings you had my test render was 97 seconds. After these changes it was 7 seconds.


Renderosity forum reply notifications have been wonky in the past. I'm testing the waters to see if it's working now. If you ask me something and I don't come back, it probably isn't. (Updated January 17, 2017)

  DarkElegance    ( ) ( posted at 1:29PM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200768

 file_9b8619251a19057cff70779273e95aa6.jphere are the render settings.

here are the light settings for the "sun"

file_1ff8a7b5dc7a7d1f0ed65aaa29c04b1e.jp

file_9872ed9fc22fc182d371c3e9ed316094.jp

the square is infront of her and at a slant to kind of go over her,

I am also going to try and do a white scene like you suggested to try and get this working.

:S

My Portfolio on DA http://art-of-darkelegance.daportfolio.com 

My Shadowness gallery http://shadowness.com/DarkElegance

Commission open.


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:30PM Tue, 21 April 2015 · edited on 1:32PM Tue, 21 April 2015 · @4200769

Is there anyway to get this gel look with using the square?

Yes obviously there is a way. I've shown you examples. I have no clue where your shadows are because you have NONE - not just missing for the square - missing altogether.

Why do you have no shadows? I don't know - show everything. Or - send me your file.


Renderosity forum reply notifications have been wonky in the past. I'm testing the waters to see if it's working now. If you ask me something and I don't come back, it probably isn't. (Updated January 17, 2017)

  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:32PM Tue, 21 April 2015  · @4200771

Ah - shadow blur radius (2.4) is way too big. The sun's blur radius is .5 - no more and no less. (it's 1/2 of a degree)

The shadow strength is not 1 - it should be 1.


Renderosity forum reply notifications have been wonky in the past. I'm testing the waters to see if it's working now. If you ask me something and I don't come back, it probably isn't. (Updated January 17, 2017)

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