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Poser F.A.Q (Updated: 2016 Nov 29 4:50 pm)


 Subject: Need help w/ applying normal maps...

MatCreator opened this issue on Apr 18, 2012 · 39 posts

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  MatCreator    ( ) ( posted at 7:30AM Wed, 18 April 2012 


For the life of me, I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong that my normal maps won't render properly in Poser Pro 2010... A setting of 1 doesn't show any affect, and anything over 1 causes black splotchy lines to show where the map should indent... I imagine it's something rather simple, but it's evading me...

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..


  MatCreator    ( ) ( posted at 7:31AM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918774


And here are the material room settings...

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..


  MatCreator    ( ) ( posted at 7:32AM Wed, 18 April 2012 · edited on 7:34AM Wed, 18 April 2012 · @3918775


And the actual render =/

Would like to release the skin for free, but can't get past setting up the materials to render properly for best results/effect... Any help would be greatly appreciated...

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..


  kalrua    ( ) ( posted at 8:09AM Wed, 18 April 2012 · edited on 8:10AM Wed, 18 April 2012 · @3918786

 

Hi

 

Normal map, set gamma to 1.

 

Gradient bump: 1.5-----> too hight for pp2010 (Z depht normal), set to 1


  MatCreator    ( ) ( posted at 8:42AM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918795

I DID set gamma to 1 using the script, double checked it and it is indeed at 1...

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..


  Teyon    ( ) ( posted at 8:56AM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918799

That looks like a shadow issue. I'd check your lights shadow settings.

 

Also - why did you need to set it to 1.5? I find setting the GB value to 1 leaves it pretty much spot on. 


  hborre    ( ) ( posted at 8:56AM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918800

Your gamma on the render settings should be 2.2. The gamma on the normal map in the material room should be 1.


  Teyon    ( ) ( posted at 9:14AM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918801

Quote - Your gamma on the render settings should be 2.2. The gamma on the normal map in the material room should be 1.

 

Didn't even notice that! Good catch. :)


  MatCreator    ( ) ( posted at 10:05AM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918809

I set the normal at 1.5 because at 1 it isn't showing at all... It's either not showing at all or showing w/ the shadow, so I'll check again, brb...

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..


  hborre    ( ) ( posted at 10:13AM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918812

Don't expect the normal map to be a replacement to displacement, they are 2 different things.  Normals are more like bump maps, they will not alter the mesh in any way and is a good way to give high res looking detail to low poly objects.


  MatCreator    ( ) ( posted at 10:32AM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918820


Not thinking to replace the displacement (I'm actually having the same trouble getting the displacement to show as well, LOL), but I should see "something"...

I started from scratch, didnt use any lights (I'm ussing BB's dome/VSS set up), and here is the result...

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..


  MatCreator    ( ) ( posted at 10:33AM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918821


The render settings...

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..


  MatCreator    ( ) ( posted at 10:34AM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918822


And the material settings...

(Big ups on the super quick response, it is greatly appreciated =)

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..


  MatCreator    ( ) ( posted at 10:35AM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918824

Also, the main preview of the mateial is totally blacked out, is that because this time the scene has no lights or is that a premonition of drama to come?

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 11:28AM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918845

You didn't use any lights and it looks like the dome is white.

This means that the illumination is the same in all directions.

Do you understand the implications of that?

It means that the brightness of light reflected from a surface will be the same no matter which way it points. And normal mapping changes nothing but which way the surface points. You are using a lighting setup that makes it impossible to observe the effects of a normal map.

Also, when testing normal maps, you should not confuse yourself with color maps as well. We can't tell squat from your picture, because in the same places where the N-map is supposed to be doing something you have the C-map doing something. Very hard to tell what is or is not happening.


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  SamTherapy    ( ) ( posted at 12:47PM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918878

And - unless this has changed in later versions - you won't see jack with Displacement if you keep your Min Displacement bounds at zero.  Set them to at least the value of your displacement, preferably higher to prevent clipping.

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  MatCreator    ( ) ( posted at 1:41PM Wed, 18 April 2012 · edited on 1:43PM Wed, 18 April 2012 · @3918902


But Ted, in the 1st post the scene did have lights, and the dome does have an .hdr "attached" to it. What you see as the background is actually a "stage prop" w/o textures applied.

Now I totally get you on being able to follow/seperate what's going on between the color and normal map (as you guys can see I use the color map w/ a hsv node to remove the color and set the color map to a bw image for a bump map), but as the creator I know that the image is not showing right...

The red veins are cracks/recesses in the skin, and "should" show as such, but I'm not getting anything like that visually. After fixing the materials a bit however, I do see that the bump map is having some effect, and that's good...

Sam, when I get the normals working I will take your advice and apply it for the displacement.

Of course, this could all be for nothing, maybe I have a misconception of what I "should" be seeing in the 1st place =/

Anyways, I have added a texture to the stage prop and added BB's vss outdoor "field" light preset... Still no cracks as expected...

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..


  Miss Nancy    ( ) ( posted at 1:49PM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918904

if others didn't mention, some errors in  shader tree, e.g. diffuse + specular > 1, refl lite mult is checked.  some problems in render settings, e.g. HSV 2.2 is used instead of gamma 2.2.  this render may also not warrant shade rate 0.1 and pix samples 18.  maybe 0.5 and 6 would be adequate at this point.  somebody double-check if shading rate of 0.2 in object properties over-rides shading rate of 0.1 in render settings, or vice versa.



  hborre    ( ) ( posted at 2:13PM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918913

If you are looking for bulging veins, you are better off with displacement rather than normal or bump mapping.  You want to slightly alter the mesh so you may see the bulges from all angles. Much like the vein mapping for M4 which is simply displacement.  The surface displaying bump and normal mapping, pretty much, must face the camera to show a difference.


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:13PM Wed, 18 April 2012 · edited on 3:15PM Wed, 18 April 2012 · @3918939

I am writing really fast so sorry if I did not read carefully. What I heard:

Normals are producing no effect at 1

later

Normals are not producing what I expect

These are different statement. Which is it.

My concern is that I cannot see what is being produced with the C-map in place. So I can't tell you which of the many things I might tell you until I see something specific.

Meanwhile I'm guessing:

There is a lack of consistency about the polarity of the green channel in normal maps. For some, 0/1 is down/up, for others 0/1 is up/down.

If you have the wrong polarity, crevices become ridges and ridges become crevices.

If you say you have no effect, ignore this.

If you say you have the wrong effect, pay attention to this.

Could you simply render with white color, diffuse value = .5, and lets us see what the normal map is doing without the obfuscation of color map data?

If it is a green polarity problem, we will be able to see that. If that is the problem I have a simple node solution that will reverse the polarity in Poser. Or you can fix it in the tool where you made the normal map. (Not all tools let you choose the polarity)


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  vilters    ( ) ( posted at 4:23PM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918970

Disconnect the color map from the Diffuse.

i allways check bump, displacemet maps on pure neutral gray figures.
it is the only way to see what is going on in bump, displacement, normal maps.
One at the time.

Afterwards, combine, one by one.

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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 4:32PM Wed, 18 April 2012 · edited on 4:32PM Wed, 18 April 2012 · @3918975

If it's the green-channel polarity problem and needs flipping, here is how.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3387795&ebot_calc_page#message_3387795

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Renderosity forum reply notifications have been wonky in the past. I'm testing the waters to see if it's working now. If you ask me something and I don't come back, it probably isn't. (Updated January 17, 2017)

  millighost    ( ) ( posted at 5:28PM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3918985

As a rule of thumb: dents in your normal map have red on the left side and green on the lower side in the preview. From the little preview it looks the other way around for the green. So you have creases when the object is lit from the side, and hills when lit from above with regards to the uv-orientation. Unless your UVs are flipped, of course (very uncommon). Try bagginsbill's suggestion.


  MatCreator    ( ) ( posted at 9:05PM Wed, 18 April 2012  · @3919048

Wanted to jump in and thank you guys for the help =)

But I'm away from the helm, so I'll marinate on this and go thru as advised, and post manana...

That's plenty to swallow, I'm SOOOOOOOOOO glad there are people like you guys around to explain these things, for me, it just doesn't click naturally this "stuff" you say...

Again, many thanks.....

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..


  MatCreator    ( ) ( posted at 8:35PM Tue, 22 May 2012 · edited on 8:37PM Tue, 22 May 2012 · @3932731


A TREMENDOUS shout of thanks to all to have helped me through this "slight" dilema, w/o people like you, the community would be a decaf, short, 1/4 pump sugar free mocha, nonfat, no whip, no foam mocha latte =P

I have completed the materials, and with good results too. In the end, I think what I needed to do was use the color math nodes to reverse the direction of the normal maps, and that gave expected results...

A HUGE special thanks to hborre who took the time to actually create a Poser Pro 2012 SSS version .mtl file, fixing the displacement and normal maps to give "expected" results.

Shown here is a VSS/IDL Poser Pro 2010 set up... Thgis is more or less what I was going for. I noticed that increasing the bump value "distracted" the -umph- of the normal map, so it took quite of bit of play =/

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..


  MatCreator    ( ) ( posted at 8:39PM Tue, 22 May 2012  · @3932732

Attached Link: freestuff

The texture/material is in my freestuff, feel free to take advantage, I have a few more on the way as well...

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..


  monkeycloud    ( ) ( posted at 4:07AM Wed, 23 May 2012  · @3932831

Quote - The texture/material is in my freestuff, feel free to take advantage, I have a few more on the way as well...

Cool - thanks :-)

Good thread too... I'm trying to get displacement to work on something, sort of vein related, currently and this surfaced just in time to save me some digging ;-)


  MatCreator    ( ) ( posted at 9:02AM Wed, 23 May 2012  · @3932930

For displacement, you'll need to adjust the setting in the render settings menu. I have not learned how to do this as yet. I didn't grasp why none of my displacement maps/renders would work, and that was why. So there's more to be had in this thread, I'm not totally done yet =P

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..


  monkeycloud    ( ) ( posted at 11:04AM Thu, 24 May 2012  · @3933508

Quote - For displacement, you'll need to adjust the setting in the render settings menu. I have not learned how to do this as yet. I didn't grasp why none of my displacement maps/renders would work, and that was why. So there's more to be had in this thread, I'm not totally done yet =P

Hi MattCreator.

Do you mean the "Min Displacement Bounds" setting, which is bottom middle, just above the "Delete Preset" button on that "Render Settings" screen?

As far as I know, this just needs to be set to a number that is a little bit higher than the highest displacement value you have set in any of the materials in your scene?

I've been making a displaced texture on a ground plane for a scene I'm doing...

...but after that I have need of some veins for M4... so I thought I'd have a go at painting these in the 3d paint feature of Photoshop CS5 Extended... and outputting a displacement or normal map from that... should be a good learning exercise for Photoshop anyway...

cheers ;-)


  hborre    ( ) ( posted at 11:46AM Thu, 24 May 2012  · @3933528

  hborre    ( ) ( posted at 11:52AM Thu, 24 May 2012  · @3933532

@MC: Glad everything worked out for you.  I'll create an opportunity to dl your latest creation and play with it.


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