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Poser F.A.Q (Updated: 2019 Jan 31 1:28 pm)


 Subject: I can't get my picture right

estherau opened this issue on Apr 02, 2010 · 171 posts

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  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 10:48PM Fri, 02 April 2010 


 The boy's face just isn't clear even though I"m rendering with fairly maximal settings. I tried changing the texture, and then I  reducing the light in case that was the problem but it didn't help.

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  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 10:48PM Fri, 02 April 2010  · @3625424


here's the darker one. 

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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 10:57PM Fri, 02 April 2010  · @3625429

This looks like the whole scene is way overlit. It has the "inside the oven" look to it.

Instead of removing or decreasing lights, start over.

Add an IBL perhaps even with no image, white, no more than 5% to 10%. Are you using P8? If so, enable IDL. Otherwise in P7 or less enable AO on the light. We can discuss the parameter of the AO later - there are plenty of threads on that subject. The purpose of the AO is to provide ambient (or secondary or bounced) lighting.

Then add a light  (or lights) that are motivated by the actual lighting found in a real room.

If the room is lit by one ceiling fixture, then add one point light. If the room is lit by several wall fixtures, then add several point lights.

If the room is lit by a spotlight, then add a spotlight. Find where the real light sources would be and put simulated ones in the same places.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 10:58PM Fri, 02 April 2010  · @3625430

I can see that your cabinet shelves are lit absurdly.

You clearly have too much light on and shadows not turned on.


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  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 11:00PM Fri, 02 April 2010  · @3625431

 sorry should have said - i'm using poser pro 2010 with premade lights from the scene that you warned me about over at the rDNA forum
Love esther

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  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 11:00PM Fri, 02 April 2010  · @3625432

 i thought decreasing their intensity by 50% for all lights would fix the problem

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  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 11:07PM Fri, 02 April 2010  · @3625436

 should the IBL have shadows on?

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  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 11:13PM Fri, 02 April 2010  · @3625437


 it's kind of stuck at 35.3% rendering in queue at the moment although it didn't take all that long to get to that point, now it has slowed significantly.
here are my render settings.
(by the way you can see a minor library problem I have)

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  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 11:35PM Fri, 02 April 2010  · @3625446

 now the render is at 40% - very slow.  But I hope the pic will be good at the end of it.

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  hborre    ( ) ( posted at 12:08AM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625453

BB is correct.  There appears to be too much lighting in the scene.  You did not specify what type of lighting arrangement came with the room but it is obvious that is was never created with gamma correction in mind. 

If IBL exists, it may account for the overall brightness within your food cabinet and microwave oven.  It is an ambient light fake which, unfortunately, is not suitable for many interior scenes.  And IBL does not cast shadows at all nor can shadows be turned on. 

Follow BB's recommendations, create your own light set for this particular room.  It will be a better improvement.

And if you are referring to your library icons, I would check to see if those folders contain RSR format instead of PNG image files.  That is still a problem with older content.


  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 12:48AM Sat, 03 April 2010 · edited on 1:00AM Sat, 03 April 2010 · @3625458

 hi, yes the library content is old.  I'm on a mac too.
The original light set was designed way before the advent of IDL.
So to compensate for the brightness I did try turning light intensity down to 50% (second render) however that didn't help, so now I am trying the BB way.  will keep you all posted.

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  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 1:03AM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625462

 but the BB way is taking forever to render.  It's been literally hours!

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  hborre    ( ) ( posted at 7:40AM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625563

You have reflections in your scene which will increase render time.  Try decreasing your pixel sampling to 3 and raytrace bounces to 3 to see if you can speed things up.


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 7:43AM Sat, 03 April 2010 · edited on 7:58AM Sat, 03 April 2010 · @3625564

Pointlights can be really slow - perhaps switch to spot lights.

This is the kind of situation where you do not want to be experimenting with lights - you have a ton of reflective surfaces, and some with transparency or refraction. This is a very demanding scene to render, and is not very suitable for test rendering. It takes too long per iteration.

I have found that lighting a room with all materials set to plain white lets me learn a lot more quickly what works and doesn't. If this is taking literally hours, then perhaps you'd save time by doing that.

Make a copy of the scene. Get rid of the figure. Remove reflection from all the shiny surfaces.

Also, both for your test scene and for your final, make sure the Diffuse_Value is .8 or less on all surfaces that have bright diffuse colors.


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  IsaoShi    ( ) ( posted at 7:45AM Sat, 03 April 2010 · edited on 7:48AM Sat, 03 April 2010 · @3625565

esther.. there is no need to wait such a long time for basic lighting setup renders. You want them done in a couple of minutes maximum... at least, I would.

While you are working on the overall lighting, I would suggest switching off details that slow the render down but don't much affect the lighting, like reflections. You could do that, for example, by reducing the RT bounces to 0 or 1 - this will still leave you 1 IDL bounce for basic IDL lighting. If you want more IDL bounces at this stage, use the D3D FF Render script to control the IDL bounces setting independently of the RT bounces setting.

You can also use a much lower IDL IC to begin with. If you set the normal render settings IC to zero, the IDL IC will be 25. You can increase those again when the basic lighting is closer to what you want. You are using IC 34 in the standard render settings, which gives you an IDL IC setting of 48.8 - fairly high. Again, you can use the D3D script to control this directly.

Hope this helps relieve your frustration a bit!
Izi

Edit: x-post... much better to do what he said!

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)

  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 8:01AM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625572

 "I have found that lighting a room with all materials set to plain white lets me learn a lot more quickly what works and doesn't. If this is taking literally hours, then perhaps you'd save time by doing that."
I'm actually trying draft but turning on shadows and firefly and I think I can see fairly well my trial and error results now,and it's not taking too horribly long comparatively.  I'm still struggling though but will try some spotlights next.
Love esther

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  IsaoShi    ( ) ( posted at 10:48AM Sat, 03 April 2010 · edited on 10:50AM Sat, 03 April 2010 · @3625630

This is slightly OT, and perhaps ought to be a separate thread, but I'm running into some inter-dependencies in the render settings that confuzzled me for a bit.

For example, in the D3D FF Render script, IDL does not work at all unless you have RT bounces > zero. It doesn't matter how many IDL Bounces are set. So my suggestion above about disabling reflections by setting RT bounces = 0 (with IDL bounces >= 1) won't work.

The Irradiance Sample Size has a significant effect on Indirect Light pre-calculation. Is this setting documented anywhere? If so, I can't find it...

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)

  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 11:00AM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625636

Not much is documented. Look for posts by stewer back when P8 came out. We were all experimenting and reverse engineering it. He dropped in here and there.

I'd look it up, but I barely have time to post. My daughter is coming with many college friends and my wife has me doing chores right and left and cooking and cleaning, as if I need to impress a bunch of college freshmen. Bah! I just want to start partying NOW!


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  IsaoShi    ( ) ( posted at 11:08AM Sat, 03 April 2010 · edited on 11:09AM Sat, 03 April 2010 · @3625638

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2778431&page=8#message_3498725

Good pointer, bb, thanks.

I'm sure you can wow them with a few simple quadratics.

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)

  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 12:11PM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625689

Actually I was doing this little math doodle in my head while driving and was quite surprised at the result.

You know how for linear workflow we take incoming material and using the gamma power 2.2, we anti-gamma correct a texture map?

clr = map ** 2.2

Then we plug that into a Diffuse node. The diffuse node does an internal calculation to determine the illumination and multiply that with the incoming clr. Let's call that illumination I.

So the output of the diffuse is:

diffout = clr * I

Then, assuming no specular, we gamma correct for the final output by using the inverse power of 2.2.

out = diffout ** (1 / 2.2)

Now string all that together in one equation:

out = ((map ** 2.2) * I) ** (1/ 2.2)

Now using the algebraic identity (p * q) ** r = (p ** r) * (q ** r), this becomes

out = ((map ** 2.2) ** (1 / 2.2)) * (I ** (1 / 2.2))

Now using the algebraic identity (p ** q) ** r = p ** (q * r) we get

out = (map ** (2.2 * 1/2.2)) * (I ** (1 / 2.2))

Since 2.2 * 1/2.2 is just 1, they cancel and we are left with:

out = map * (I ** (1 / 2.2))

Look - assuming a diffuse-only shader, you don't need to anti-gamma the input. Just gamma correct a diffuse node all by itself and multiply that with the color map as is.

...

Well, I was impressed with this analysis.


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  IsaoShi    ( ) ( posted at 3:05PM Sat, 03 April 2010 · edited on 3:07PM Sat, 03 April 2010 · @3625782

That's very sweet!

Taking this further, first thinking about the specular. A separate specular calculation, attenuating the Diffuse_Value to preserve the energy balance, separately GC'd, and finally added to the GC'd Diffuse?

Who is going to break this to RV?
:O)

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)

  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 8:21PM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625884


 I spent yesterday doing trial and error. I haven't really used spotlights before. I tried the shadowlight camera but couldn't seem to move it around.  So then I chose the top camera, found the light and positioned it so it was lighting the kitchen.

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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 8:44PM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625892

Do you have shadows enabled? I just don't see any.


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  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 8:49PM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625893


 yes, for the spotlight and I haven't checked for the other lights yet.

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  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 8:50PM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625894

 that was an indoor light set that came with poser pro 2010 and thenI added the spotlight.
Are the bowl artifacts caused by my low qual render settings?
Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!


  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 9:13PM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625902

 Light 2 is a point light and has also got shadows on.

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  RobynsVeil    ( ) ( posted at 9:40PM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625912

Quote - Who is going to break this to RV?
:O)

EstherAU did - thanks Esther!

So, did I get this right:

Mint18/HighSierra/Win7Pro-Blender2.79-PoserPro 11(inches)-FinalCutProX

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  IsaoShi    ( ) ( posted at 9:41PM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625914

I can see no occlusion at all, either shadows or from IDL. Do you still have the IBL switched on?

What happens if you render with all lights except one (spotlight or pointlight) switched off?

By the way, although it's not relevant at this point, the two worktop surfaces nearest the camera are showing the same problem that I had on a flat table top in the Geisha Room freebie from Ladonna. Although the surface appears flat, the reflections are not flat, as though the surface is ballooned outwards. (The spoons also appear to be floating above the surface. This may or may not be related). I never found the cause of this problem on the table, and had to hide it by placing another surface immediately above the table top.

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)

  IsaoShi    ( ) ( posted at 9:57PM Sat, 03 April 2010 · edited on 10:00PM Sat, 03 April 2010 · @3625919


Quote - So, did I get this right:

Ummm, no I don't think so.
I think it's like this.

Top right is the Diffuse node (I in bb's formula)
Top left is Gamma Correcting the Diffuse node ( I ** 1/2.2)
Bottom right is the color map (map)
Bottom left is multiplying the GC'd Diffuse by the color map. (map * (I ** 1/2.2))

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)

  estherau    ( ) ( posted at 10:04PM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625921

 funny you should mention ballooning, because if I render with smooth polygons on the refrigerator balloons, so maybe smooth polys is still on for reflections even when it's off for the rest of the scene?

there is an IBL in the scene, and indirect light is checked.  How do I know if the IBL is activated??
Love esther
PS I did try the BB suggestion of one light and one IBL first but the scene was way too dark.  Maybe I did something wrong. I didn't post this example.

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I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!


  IsaoShi    ( ) ( posted at 10:24PM Sat, 03 April 2010  · @3625939

Quote -  funny you should mention ballooning, because if I render with smooth polygons on the refrigerator balloons, so maybe smooth polys is still on for reflections even when it's off for the rest of the scene?

That's certainly what it seems like, although I'm not sure about the validity of this explanation. In any case I couldn't fix it, so I had to hide it.

Quote - there is an IBL in the scene, and indirect light is checked.  How do I know if the IBL is activated??

I just meant is the IBL light switched on? If so, I would guess that it is overpowering the IDL. IBL lighting is a bodge from before the days of IDL and you don't need it here. I would switch the light off or delete it.

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)

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