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Poser F.A.Q (Updated: 2015 Aug 18 8:24 pm)


 Subject: Refraction node question...

momodot opened this issue on Dec 08, 2009 · 55 posts

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  momodot () ( posted at 2:24PM Tue, 08 December 2009 · edited on 2:25PM Tue, 08 December 2009

When I use the refraction nodein Poser 8on a material the diffuse and transparency channels no longer seem to work. I take my water mesh and in the Materials room I use the default reflection and refraction set-up wacros but then I can't return some opacity to the mesh. Can someone explain what is going on and how to reduce the transparency and add a diffuse color? I am trying to create some what murky pond/lake water. Thank you.



  bagginsbill () ( posted at 2:30PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568939

The Poser Surface node adds together many effects - each of its channels contribute to the final rendered pixel.

In order to do this right, you have to start applying some math. Not a lot of math so don't get scared.

Basically, a material like murky water has a mix of diffuse response and refraction. Clear water has zero diffuse and nearly 100% refraction. Murky water has non-zero diffuse and less than 100% refraction.

So - there are a couple ways to do this.

I'll show you.


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 2:35PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568943


This is wrong. The diffuse value and the refraction value are adding up to more than 1.


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 2:36PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568945


This is better. The diffuse value + the refraction value do not exceed 1.


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 2:39PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568949


This is even better. It's a little extra work up front, but after that it's much simpler.

Turn off the built-in diffuse.

Combine the Refract with a Diffuse node using a Blender. The Blending value will determine the correct proportions between the two nodes automatically. Arranged as I've done, the lower that number, the less clear the water is.


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 2:43PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568951


You can and should combine the reflection with the combination of refraction and diffuse the same way.

Here I've chosen 11% reflection.

The idea here is a photon can reflect or not, based on a probability. If it does, then there is less light to go through and light up the diffuse stuff.

Of course, a constant reflection amount is wrong, too. What should go into this new Blender is the result of either the exact Fresnel equation (22 nodes) or my 4-node approximation, published elsewhere in the lake thread.


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 2:49PM Tue, 08 December 2009 · edited on 2:49PM Tue, 08 December 2009 · @3568957


The other cool thing about the Blender solution is that the ratio of diffuse to refraction does not have to be a constant. It can be controlled by more nodes.

Here I used a clouds node to make the ratio variable.

Use gray scale colors to represent the numbers. Black = 0, White = 1. RGB128 corresponds to (approximately) 1/5 or .5. (It's technically 128/255, which is .502).


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 2:52PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568959


Here I rotated my square so it's flat and made it bigger. I had to adjust the scale on the Clouds and the FractalSum to compensate. I also increased the values in the Clouds node so there would be more refraction, but it is otherwise the same.


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 2:54PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568961


Making the colors in the Clouds node darker, I get less refraction. Looks pretty real to me.


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 2:56PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568963


Now I added another Clouds node, this time to make the diffuse color variable. Looks like clumps of underwater vegetation.


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 3:04PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568968


Get rid of the hard-coded 11% reflection, and replace it with my Fresnel approximation.

This look pretty good, IMO.


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 3:13PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568976


Add gamma correction and it really pops.

You have to anti-gamma the diffuse colors coming in, the reflection node, and the refraction node, because those are all incoming material.

Then you gamma correct the final product.


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 3:14PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568977


Here's the full render.


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 3:16PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568979


Looking down on it.


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 3:25PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568985


I just looked up better values for the Fresnel approximationfor water. Use this.

The numbers are .0184, 80, and .078.


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  momodot () ( posted at 3:25PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568986

Wow... that is a great help.



  bagginsbill () ( posted at 3:26PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568987


Made it slightly more refractive (less murky) and used the corrected constants for Fresnel.


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 3:30PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568991


Hah! I'm an idiot. In all that, I forgot to set the IOR on the Refraction. Use 1.33 for water. Doh!

See how the grass from the environment sphere is showing like underwater plants?I love it!


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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 3:48PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3568999


Here's the same water plane, but combined with RDNA's Terradome. Pretty cool.


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  dlfurman () ( posted at 6:50PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3569064

Revs up...cracks the whip (again!)
Finish the book!
(Don't forget to add the above to the Special Natural Effects chapter :) )

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  Latexluv () ( posted at 9:57PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3569100

This is wonderful stuff! Thanks so much for demonstrating this for us. And now my request. Hehe, knew it was coming Ibet. I would love to have the pz3 file that is just your Environmental sphere and the water plane. I'd like to study it, lights, cams, and all.

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  hborre () ( posted at 10:21PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3569115

The scene with Terradome looks fantastic. Thank you for the tutorial. Just love this stuff!


  bagginsbill () ( posted at 10:41PM Tue, 08 December 2009  · @3569121

Quote - This is wonderful stuff! Thanks so much for demonstrating this for us. And now my request. Hehe, knew it was coming Ibet. I would love to have the pz3 file that is just your Environmental sphere and the water plane. I'd like to study it, lights, cams, and all.

Glad you all liked this.I was going to save this for my book, but people need water bad. Consider it a free taste - like crack. You will become addicted and buy my book. Besides, I have many more water tricks I haven't told you.

I didn't save the scene, of course. I just toss these together like making popcorn. I don't save them. But I'll make it again and post it.


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  Latexluv () ( posted at 2:17AM Wed, 09 December 2009  · @3569170

Thanks so much BB if you would do that! In the early days of Renderosity (when it was called Poser Forum), we all had Poser 3 and 4, meaning we all pretty much had the same toys, and people would put up their pz3 files in the freestuff area and I learned so much from picking apart and studying someone's pz3 file. I still learn best this way. But I will say that I'm getting better at following a screen shot. Took me about ten minutes to build the gamma corrected water shader you demonstrated. Still, I'd very much like to study your lights, camera angle, render settings, ect in the demo you pictured.

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  carodan () ( posted at 3:09PM Wed, 09 December 2009  · @3569509

Pure excellence! I've never seen Poser water done so well.

 

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  bagginsbill () ( posted at 4:55PM Wed, 09 December 2009  · @3569584


Here's one I just finished - playing with DarkEdge's new freebie bridge. This is the same water shader as above, but with slightly different colors and Cloud settings.

Rendered in P8 with IDL - one infinite light and the environment sphere does the rest. Ineed to find me some good HDR equirectangulars. You can see the result of LDR clipping in the reflection. When a reflection is 20% of whatever being reflected, and that thing is clipped at 1, then the reflection cannot be brighter than .2, ever. The hotspot you see is a specular node reacting to the infinite light, not reflection.

Render time, 42 minutes. Would have been faster, but I had to really crank samples to 6 and shading rate to .2 in order to get those fine razor-thin rim speculars on the bridge rail to look right. I probably should have set shading rates higher on the water and sky and they would have rendered fast.


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  hborre () ( posted at 6:15PM Wed, 09 December 2009  · @3569620

Beautiful render.


  Anthanasius () ( posted at 6:17PM Wed, 09 December 2009 · edited on 6:17PM Wed, 09 December 2009 · @3569622

Quote - The hotspot you see is a specular node reacting to the infinite light, not reflection.

Cause the sun is invisible ... I think you need to remove the specular node . ( Inever use specular when i use reflection )

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  SamTherapy () ( posted at 6:19PM Wed, 09 December 2009  · @3569625

Top notch, BB. Many thanks.

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  jartz () ( posted at 7:09PM Wed, 09 December 2009  · @3569648

Wow, BB, you're a man of many talents.

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  DarkEdge () ( posted at 3:11PM Fri, 11 December 2009  · @3570515

Quote - Here's one I just finished - playing with DarkEdge's new freebie bridge...

Looking very nice BB.
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