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Poser F.A.Q (Updated: 2019 Jan 31 1:28 pm)


 Subject: IBL + IDL .. Yay or nay?

Zanzo opened this issue on Aug 11, 2009 · 95 posts

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  Zanzo    ( ) ( posted at 8:06AM Tue, 11 August 2009 

IBL + IDL .. Yay or nay?


  manoloz    ( ) ( posted at 8:13AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498207

yay

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  cspear    ( ) ( posted at 8:18AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498208


This scene - and old one I did for testing bagginsbill's environment sphere - consists of the car, Miki2 and bb's env sphere with an HDR image mapped onto it. That's all. This was rendered with 1 infinite light, 1 IBL and IDL turned on (modest settings). Despite the complex shaders on the car, it rendered in around 4 minutes.

I did a version with IBL off but didn't keep it for comparison - I don't think there was a huge difference.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 8:18AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498209

IBL works with IDL, but it works differently than without IDL.

When IDL is enabled, the colors in the IBL are projected on a gigantic virtual sphere that surrounds your scene. If your subject is inside a close room, the light from the IBL is blocked. Without IDL, the light would reach everywhere, passing right through all surfaces.

If you are just doing a figure and it is not enclosed, the IBL light will reach it, but it won't pass through arms and legs. Thus, the shadows produced are correct.

Light-based AO is inferior to this and is ignored when IDL + IBL is used. Even if you turn AO on for the light, the renderer ignores that and uses the superior rules afforded by IDL.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 8:21AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498210

Oh I forgot to mention. If you use my EnvSphere, there is no point in using an IBL. The virtual IBL sphere is bigger (infinite) and so the light will come from the EnvSphere, which completely encloses your scene.

With IDL, the lighting from the EnvSphere is automatically correct and matches the scenery you load into it. Further, in the enclosed room above, the EnvSphere only provides light that can be seen through the windows. The room blocks the rest of it.


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  cspear    ( ) ( posted at 8:29AM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 8:29AM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498214

Quote - Oh I forgot to mention. If you use my EnvSphere, there is no point in using an IBL. The virtual IBL sphere is bigger (infinite) and so the light will come from the EnvSphere, which completely encloses your scene.

BB, thanks for clearing that one up... I think you've told us this several times over the last few days but it's only just sunk in with me.


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  Zanzo    ( ) ( posted at 8:37AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498216

Quote - > Quote - Oh I forgot to mention. If you use my EnvSphere, there is no point in using an IBL. The virtual IBL sphere is bigger (infinite) and so the light will come from the EnvSphere, which completely encloses your scene.

BB, thanks for clearing that one up... I think you've told us this several times over the last few days but it's only just sunk in with me.

Yea this just clicked in my head :)

Baggins ftw :)


  LukeA    ( ) ( posted at 10:04AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498288

I love BagginsBills posts!

 

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  lululee    ( ) ( posted at 10:15AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498296

What would we do without you, BB.
You truly have patience.
cheerio
lululee


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 10:56AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498334

Well, without me, you'd probably have the old library GUI and nobody would be complaining about small thumbnails. ;-)


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  lululee    ( ) ( posted at 12:23PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498409

    BB,
As a vendor, I have made a lot of mistakes when trying to push the envelope. It is devastating.
I used to show horses. When I got thrown off the horse or lost a competition my mother always instructed me to get back on the horse saying I could only quit when I got it right or won. I became a champion horsewoman because of it.
    You are doing something very complex. Something no one else would take on. So, it is not perfect the first time. You are still a champion and will push the envelope for all of us. You will bring out a fantastic new library soon. It will be way better than the old one because now you know want users really want. In 3 months all of this will be forgotten.
Steady on my friend, you will overcome.
cheerio
lululee

    
 


  cspear    ( ) ( posted at 1:10PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498430


Quote - If you use my EnvSphere, there is no point in using an IBL.

Except, it may be useful to do just that in some circumstances. These are crops from a couple of renders, same setup for each (car, figure, env sphere), the only difference being the use of IBL with AO set at 2.0 on the second image. That seemed to have improved the shadows on the face.

That there is a difference is shown on the right. If this is a bug, it could be a useful one!


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  cspear    ( ) ( posted at 1:22PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 1:23PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498437


While I'm here, another interesting snippet.

The image is self-explanatory: identical setup, the only difference being Ray-Traced shadows vs. Depth-Mapped shadows.

I just ran the same test with a different figure in the scene - this one had hair with a specular map - and got even more of a difference: ray-traced 21:45, depth-mapped 7:14.

EDIT: is it just me, or does the colour of Miki's suit look slightly different?


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  DarksealStudios    ( ) ( posted at 1:39PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498450

the skin looks alittle tiny bit more saturated in the 2nd one, but maybe its just me.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:55PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498455

Quote - > Quote - If you use my EnvSphere, there is no point in using an IBL.

Except, it may be useful to do just that in some circumstances. These are crops from a couple of renders, same setup for each (car, figure, env sphere), the only difference being the use of IBL with AO set at 2.0 on the second image. That seemed to have improved the shadows on the face.

That there is a difference is shown on the right. If this is a bug, it could be a useful one!

Huh. You're right. I did not do a detailed test until now. Despite my own advice to the contrary, I trusted my eyes, and what I thought I saw was that IBL had no impact when the ESphere was present.

So I just did an experiment. I set up an IBL with only green in it. I set up an EnvSphere with only red in it. I rendered some white props.

With only the IBL, everything is a pure shade of green.
With only the EnvSphere, everything is a pure shade of red.
With both, it looks pure red, but there is a tiny bit of green in it!!!!!!

This is a bug. Don't count on it in the future.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:56PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498457


I did low quality renders for speed - ignore the splotchy artifacts.

This is the IBL render.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:56PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498458


This is the EnvSphere render.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:56PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498459


This is with both.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 2:05PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498464


In case this bug gets fixed, and you happen to want some IBL to leak through the EnvSphere, you can still do this.

Make the EnvSphere somewhat transparent. This lets the IBL light leak through. Here my EnvSphere is 50% transparent. Looking directly at it, it is still red, because it is self-lit and pays no attention to the IBL. But the props are picking up half the light from the EnvSphere and half the light from the IBL. 50% red + 50% green = dark yellow.


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  Synpainter    ( ) ( posted at 2:26PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498486

 Bookmark.


  pjz99    ( ) ( posted at 2:29PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498489

There's an important difference between how an IBL light can behave with indirect lighting enabled, and how an environment sphere (or other geometry) that emits Ambient will behave: the IBL can have shadows turned off.  Ambient emitted from a material will always be occluded by polygons that are not transparent; IBL with shadows off will always pass through it - AND bounce.

Cspear, according to Stewer, when indirect lighting is enabled, light-based AO is skipped, so you might as well not bother with it.

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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 2:46PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 2:47PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498507

PJ - my EnvSphere has shadows turned off and my IBl has no shadows enabled of any kind. Why are you contradicting the evidence I demonstrated? Not being an ass. I'm wondering if you've tried it a different way than I did.


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  IsaoShi    ( ) ( posted at 2:47PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 2:48PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498508

Ummm, isn't there a contradiction here?

One says that IBL with IDL will be occluded.
One says that IBL with IDL will not be occluded.

What I thought I had learnt is that IBL with IDL does not work as IBL at all, but as ambient light emitted from a virtual all-enclosing sphere. So it will be occluded.

(edit) oops, cross-post, never mind!

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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:10PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 3:11PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498538


Yes there is a contradiction. Judge for yourself.

A flattened sphere hovering over the ground.

The only light is an IBL.

On the IBL, shadows are disabled. AO is disabled.

On the sphere, Cast Shadows is disabled.

Yet there is occlusion under it. I don't see what else there is to say about this. The only possible conclusion is that IDL looks to the first opaque surface and that's where bounced light comes from. If it never reaches a surface, then bounced light comes from the IBL, "mounted" on an infinite sphere enclosing the scene.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:12PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498540

By the way, I just demonstrated another bug. Who sees it?


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:15PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498543


Compare this with the earlier one. There is a thin box under the flattened sphere. What is different?


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  cspear    ( ) ( posted at 3:23PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498548

Shadows enabled?


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  Nyghtfall    ( ) ( posted at 3:39PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 3:40PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498562

Quote - Compare this with the earlier one. There is a thin box under the flattened sphere. What is different?

There's a shadow on the bottom half of the sphere in the second image.


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:47PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498568

Quote - > Quote - Compare this with the earlier one. There is a thin box under the flattened sphere. What is different?

There's a shadow on the bottom half of the sphere in the second image.

Right!

It would appear that when IDL sends out a ray from the bottom of a sphere, it passes right through the Ground without realizing it, and picks up light from the IBL, when it should not.

When I put a flat box there, it saw the box, same as it should have seen the ground.

Poser 8 Ground seems very buggy. I have found more than one situation where Poser seemed unaware that the ground exists.

For example. Load a couple props. Go into the material room. Click on one prop - its material gets selected into the material room display. Click on another prop - that one gets selected.

Now click on the ground. It selects the Background material instead of the Ground material.

It acts like the Ground isn't there.

Uli told me the Ground is not real geometry - it is procedural. It seems that not all the parts of Poser are procedural-geometry aware.

They should have got rid of that Ground and just used a prop for real. These problems wouldn't exist.


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  Whichway    ( ) ( posted at 3:57PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 3:58PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498574

On my Poser 8, the GROUND material comes up with Shadow_Catch_Only enabled by default. According to the manual, this means it is transparent to light, but catches shadows produced by other objects. This sounds roughly consistent with what you're seeing to me. That would mean it's not a bug but a feature, I think.

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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 4:00PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 4:01PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498575

Have you forgotten I'm a Poser God? I have my own shadow catcher that is far superior - look in my free stuff.

First thing I did (FIRST THING) was make the ground normal. Clearly it's not a shadow catcher because you can see it in my render.


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