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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Updated: 2020 Feb 18 1:59 pm)


 Subject: IBL + IDL .. Yay or nay?

Zanzo opened this issue on Aug 11, 2009 · 95 posts

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  Zanzo    ( ) ( posted at 8:06AM Tue, 11 August 2009 

IBL + IDL .. Yay or nay?


  manoloz    ( ) ( posted at 8:13AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498207

yay

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  cspear    ( ) ( posted at 8:18AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498208


This scene - and old one I did for testing bagginsbill's environment sphere - consists of the car, Miki2 and bb's env sphere with an HDR image mapped onto it. That's all. This was rendered with 1 infinite light, 1 IBL and IDL turned on (modest settings). Despite the complex shaders on the car, it rendered in around 4 minutes.

I did a version with IBL off but didn't keep it for comparison - I don't think there was a huge difference.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 8:18AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498209

IBL works with IDL, but it works differently than without IDL.

When IDL is enabled, the colors in the IBL are projected on a gigantic virtual sphere that surrounds your scene. If your subject is inside a close room, the light from the IBL is blocked. Without IDL, the light would reach everywhere, passing right through all surfaces.

If you are just doing a figure and it is not enclosed, the IBL light will reach it, but it won't pass through arms and legs. Thus, the shadows produced are correct.

Light-based AO is inferior to this and is ignored when IDL + IBL is used. Even if you turn AO on for the light, the renderer ignores that and uses the superior rules afforded by IDL.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 8:21AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498210

Oh I forgot to mention. If you use my EnvSphere, there is no point in using an IBL. The virtual IBL sphere is bigger (infinite) and so the light will come from the EnvSphere, which completely encloses your scene.

With IDL, the lighting from the EnvSphere is automatically correct and matches the scenery you load into it. Further, in the enclosed room above, the EnvSphere only provides light that can be seen through the windows. The room blocks the rest of it.


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  cspear    ( ) ( posted at 8:29AM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 8:29AM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498214

Quote - Oh I forgot to mention. If you use my EnvSphere, there is no point in using an IBL. The virtual IBL sphere is bigger (infinite) and so the light will come from the EnvSphere, which completely encloses your scene.

BB, thanks for clearing that one up... I think you've told us this several times over the last few days but it's only just sunk in with me.


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  Zanzo    ( ) ( posted at 8:37AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498216

Quote - > Quote - Oh I forgot to mention. If you use my EnvSphere, there is no point in using an IBL. The virtual IBL sphere is bigger (infinite) and so the light will come from the EnvSphere, which completely encloses your scene.

BB, thanks for clearing that one up... I think you've told us this several times over the last few days but it's only just sunk in with me.

Yea this just clicked in my head :)

Baggins ftw :)


  LukeA    ( ) ( posted at 10:04AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498288

I love BagginsBills posts!

 

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  lululee    ( ) ( posted at 10:15AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498296

What would we do without you, BB.
You truly have patience.
cheerio
lululee


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 10:56AM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498334

Well, without me, you'd probably have the old library GUI and nobody would be complaining about small thumbnails. ;-)


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  lululee    ( ) ( posted at 12:23PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498409

    BB,
As a vendor, I have made a lot of mistakes when trying to push the envelope. It is devastating.
I used to show horses. When I got thrown off the horse or lost a competition my mother always instructed me to get back on the horse saying I could only quit when I got it right or won. I became a champion horsewoman because of it.
    You are doing something very complex. Something no one else would take on. So, it is not perfect the first time. You are still a champion and will push the envelope for all of us. You will bring out a fantastic new library soon. It will be way better than the old one because now you know want users really want. In 3 months all of this will be forgotten.
Steady on my friend, you will overcome.
cheerio
lululee

    
 


  cspear    ( ) ( posted at 1:10PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498430


Quote - If you use my EnvSphere, there is no point in using an IBL.

Except, it may be useful to do just that in some circumstances. These are crops from a couple of renders, same setup for each (car, figure, env sphere), the only difference being the use of IBL with AO set at 2.0 on the second image. That seemed to have improved the shadows on the face.

That there is a difference is shown on the right. If this is a bug, it could be a useful one!


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  cspear    ( ) ( posted at 1:22PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 1:23PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498437


While I'm here, another interesting snippet.

The image is self-explanatory: identical setup, the only difference being Ray-Traced shadows vs. Depth-Mapped shadows.

I just ran the same test with a different figure in the scene - this one had hair with a specular map - and got even more of a difference: ray-traced 21:45, depth-mapped 7:14.

EDIT: is it just me, or does the colour of Miki's suit look slightly different?


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  DarksealStudios    ( ) ( posted at 1:39PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498450

the skin looks alittle tiny bit more saturated in the 2nd one, but maybe its just me.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:55PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498455

Quote - > Quote - If you use my EnvSphere, there is no point in using an IBL.

Except, it may be useful to do just that in some circumstances. These are crops from a couple of renders, same setup for each (car, figure, env sphere), the only difference being the use of IBL with AO set at 2.0 on the second image. That seemed to have improved the shadows on the face.

That there is a difference is shown on the right. If this is a bug, it could be a useful one!

Huh. You're right. I did not do a detailed test until now. Despite my own advice to the contrary, I trusted my eyes, and what I thought I saw was that IBL had no impact when the ESphere was present.

So I just did an experiment. I set up an IBL with only green in it. I set up an EnvSphere with only red in it. I rendered some white props.

With only the IBL, everything is a pure shade of green.
With only the EnvSphere, everything is a pure shade of red.
With both, it looks pure red, but there is a tiny bit of green in it!!!!!!

This is a bug. Don't count on it in the future.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:56PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498457


I did low quality renders for speed - ignore the splotchy artifacts.

This is the IBL render.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:56PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498458


This is the EnvSphere render.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 1:56PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498459


This is with both.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 2:05PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498464


In case this bug gets fixed, and you happen to want some IBL to leak through the EnvSphere, you can still do this.

Make the EnvSphere somewhat transparent. This lets the IBL light leak through. Here my EnvSphere is 50% transparent. Looking directly at it, it is still red, because it is self-lit and pays no attention to the IBL. But the props are picking up half the light from the EnvSphere and half the light from the IBL. 50% red + 50% green = dark yellow.


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  Synpainter    ( ) ( posted at 2:26PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498486

 Bookmark.


  pjz99    ( ) ( posted at 2:29PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498489

There's an important difference between how an IBL light can behave with indirect lighting enabled, and how an environment sphere (or other geometry) that emits Ambient will behave: the IBL can have shadows turned off.  Ambient emitted from a material will always be occluded by polygons that are not transparent; IBL with shadows off will always pass through it - AND bounce.

Cspear, according to Stewer, when indirect lighting is enabled, light-based AO is skipped, so you might as well not bother with it.

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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 2:46PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 2:47PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498507

PJ - my EnvSphere has shadows turned off and my IBl has no shadows enabled of any kind. Why are you contradicting the evidence I demonstrated? Not being an ass. I'm wondering if you've tried it a different way than I did.


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  IsaoShi    ( ) ( posted at 2:47PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 2:48PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498508

Ummm, isn't there a contradiction here?

One says that IBL with IDL will be occluded.
One says that IBL with IDL will not be occluded.

What I thought I had learnt is that IBL with IDL does not work as IBL at all, but as ambient light emitted from a virtual all-enclosing sphere. So it will be occluded.

(edit) oops, cross-post, never mind!

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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:10PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 3:11PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498538


Yes there is a contradiction. Judge for yourself.

A flattened sphere hovering over the ground.

The only light is an IBL.

On the IBL, shadows are disabled. AO is disabled.

On the sphere, Cast Shadows is disabled.

Yet there is occlusion under it. I don't see what else there is to say about this. The only possible conclusion is that IDL looks to the first opaque surface and that's where bounced light comes from. If it never reaches a surface, then bounced light comes from the IBL, "mounted" on an infinite sphere enclosing the scene.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:12PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498540

By the way, I just demonstrated another bug. Who sees it?


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:15PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498543


Compare this with the earlier one. There is a thin box under the flattened sphere. What is different?


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  cspear    ( ) ( posted at 3:23PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498548

Shadows enabled?


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  Nyghtfall    ( ) ( posted at 3:39PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 3:40PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498562

Quote - Compare this with the earlier one. There is a thin box under the flattened sphere. What is different?

There's a shadow on the bottom half of the sphere in the second image.


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 3:47PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498568

Quote - > Quote - Compare this with the earlier one. There is a thin box under the flattened sphere. What is different?

There's a shadow on the bottom half of the sphere in the second image.

Right!

It would appear that when IDL sends out a ray from the bottom of a sphere, it passes right through the Ground without realizing it, and picks up light from the IBL, when it should not.

When I put a flat box there, it saw the box, same as it should have seen the ground.

Poser 8 Ground seems very buggy. I have found more than one situation where Poser seemed unaware that the ground exists.

For example. Load a couple props. Go into the material room. Click on one prop - its material gets selected into the material room display. Click on another prop - that one gets selected.

Now click on the ground. It selects the Background material instead of the Ground material.

It acts like the Ground isn't there.

Uli told me the Ground is not real geometry - it is procedural. It seems that not all the parts of Poser are procedural-geometry aware.

They should have got rid of that Ground and just used a prop for real. These problems wouldn't exist.


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  Whichway    ( ) ( posted at 3:57PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 3:58PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498574

On my Poser 8, the GROUND material comes up with Shadow_Catch_Only enabled by default. According to the manual, this means it is transparent to light, but catches shadows produced by other objects. This sounds roughly consistent with what you're seeing to me. That would mean it's not a bug but a feature, I think.

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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 4:00PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 4:01PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498575

Have you forgotten I'm a Poser God? I have my own shadow catcher that is far superior - look in my free stuff.

First thing I did (FIRST THING) was make the ground normal. Clearly it's not a shadow catcher because you can see it in my render.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 4:03PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 4:04PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498579


Here's a multicolor shader on the ground. Now what? Look at the color under the sphere. It's got RED!

It picks up light from the ground, but doesn't count for occlusion.


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  Whichway    ( ) ( posted at 4:07PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498581

Sorry, (dang, I'll get one of them right one of these days.) My only defense is that I don't think you said - at least I didn't read - anywhere nearby that you'd normalized the ground, but your comment about it being visible is certainly valid. Your devoted acolyte quails before your august presence.

Whichway


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 4:07PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498583


Oooh - it's worse than I thought. Here I'm using a one-sided square instead. Still not occlusion on the sphere.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 4:15PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498589


There's a new prop in Poser 8 called Square Groundplane HR.

That doesn't work either.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 4:17PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498592


That's it. I've had it with ground planes.

I'm switching my default scene to a scaled box. That's the only thing that works right.

I wonder if walls made of single-sided objects have a problem, too.


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  pjz99    ( ) ( posted at 4:19PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498595


Quote - PJ - my EnvSphere has shadows turned off and my IBl has no shadows enabled of any kind. Why are you contradicting the evidence I demonstrated? Not being an ass. I'm wondering if you've tried it a different way than I did.

Because they do indeed behave differently.  See the linked file.

http://cid-b233dcaeefa9709c.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/Poser8%20samples/IBL%20vs%20Ambient.zip

This is with an IBL, shadows turned off:

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  pjz99    ( ) ( posted at 4:19PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 4:21PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498596


and this is with the env sphere (wrong though, because some light evidently leaked through the backfacing normals on the floor(?), but not elsewhere)

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  pjz99    ( ) ( posted at 4:21PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 4:23PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498597

and for reference, another "room" box is included, "Room Outer", with the normals facing out.  With both the IBL and the environment sphere, it occludes all incoming light (which imo shows again that including normal facing in GI calculations is not a good idea, it shouldn't matter).

Edit: to clarify, it doesn't work like either of us thought it did; with an IBL that has shadows turned off, light passes in through the backfacing normals; with the environment sphere, it is occluded.  With outward-facing normals, both are occluded.

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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 5:18PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498641

Wait, I don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

IBL with shadows off? You mean shadows, like we use on a directional light, raytraced or depth-mapped shadows? You're not talking about AO? Why are we talking about that now? On an IBL, the "Shadows" property is identical to an infinite light, and is actually nonsense and has always been that way.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 5:37PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498648

Also, you last said "light passes in through the backfacing normals".

Well, that appears to depend on the size of the polygons or whether we're inside or SOMETHING, I don't know which.

I'm getting confused now with my current tests. Small one-sided squares don't seem to block IBL at all, but my environment sphere blocks IBL even with normals in or out.
 


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  Iuvenis_Scriptor    ( ) ( posted at 5:39PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 5:43PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498649


 Here's my first decent render using indirect lighting, and I was very pleased with the results of this experiment. It took a while, though, so I probably won't be using IL much until my new (i.e. faster) computer arrives. I think IL shows some promise! I just have to figure out how to tone it down in scenes with more than one light (I tried it once with three lights, and my character ended up oversatuurated with most of the shading blown out) and get rid of the slight tinting that it seems to cause when traversing transparent material (in this case, the hair). 

I used Bagginsbill's Environment Sphere with a panoramic photo from Flickr. The shaders/textures and morph are of my own design. Comments are welcome! 

On the subject of occlusion, I've experienced similar issues.  When I built my Photo Studio using planes as walls, there was almost no shading at the corners where the walls met.  When I switched to thinned-down cubes, the missing occlusion magically appeared!


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 5:47PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498655

IS:

Are you using GC shaders with IDL? I haven't tested extensively, but I think you really can't. The data that GC shaders reutrn is for how to make that luminance on a screen. For light measurement purposes, those numbers are way too high. That would cause over-exposure for sure. That's why linear rendering is so important.

With Poser 8 and IDL, dump GC shaders altogether. Use linear output only from shaders. Make sure all diffuse calculations throw less light than arrives (Diffuse_Value < 1). Use HSV Exponential Tone Mapping at 2.2 for the final adjustment (approximately) to sRGB color space.


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  FrankT    ( ) ( posted at 5:54PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 5:55PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498659

Quote - I'm getting confused now with my current tests. Small one-sided squares don't seem to block IBL at all, but my environment sphere blocks IBL even with normals in or out.

Dunno if this is relevant but Poser 7 used to have all sorts of problems with small props.  Firefly used to produce some very odd shadows (square shadows from spheres for e.g)

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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 6:03PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498662

When I say small, I don't mean inches. I mean a 10 foot wall 5 feet away versus a 1000 foot wall 500 feet away.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 6:07PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · edited on 6:13PM Tue, 11 August 2009 · @3498663

OK I've found something else completely strange.

PJ - you said based on which way a normal faces, it may or may not let IBL light through under IDL.

How does this grab you?

Load a subject prop. Set up a constant light gray IBL, no shadows no AO. Render. The prop looks uniformly lit.

Load a one-sided square. (EDIT: MAKE IT BLACK) Scale it up 500% (EDIT: I said 5000% first time - I meant 500%) and position it beside the prop so you can see the prop, but this wall can block a significant angle of the environment. Render again. No change to the appearance of the prop.

Now duplicate the wall, so there are two of them. Render again. The wall now blocks IBL and the surface facing the wall are darker.

What is your theory?

Variations:

Turn either or both walls around, so the normals face towards the prop. Same thing happens. One alone does not block IBL, two do.


Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 6:11PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498666


Here's my setup in preview. There is one wall beside the box-cyl-ball.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 6:11PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498667


Rendering with one wall. No IBL blocking from the wall.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 6:12PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498668


Rendering with a duplicate wall. Now the IBL is being blocked by the wall.


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  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 6:14PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498670

I had all shadows and AO on lights, props, everything turned off.


Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 6:17PM Tue, 11 August 2009  · @3498674


Rendering with my EnvDome (it is a hemisphere 750 feet in radius) I see occlusion. But this is not a manifold. It is only one polygon thick. Why the difference?


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