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Poser F.A.Q (Updated: 2016 Nov 29 4:50 pm)


 Subject: Is there a relatively decent water material for Poser 7?

Greywolf Starkiller opened this issue on Jul 11, 2007 · 33 posts

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  Greywolf Starkiller    ( ) ( posted at 8:18PM Wed, 11 July 2007 

Say you have a puddle of water, or a spill on a table, or maybe tears. In all these examples,
water should be colorless. How DO you do this in Poser? The transparent part is easy, but
what color do you use to get good looking water when water HAS no color. Any answer here
is appreciated. I'm close to getting decent looking tears in Poser and I need to know how to
get colorless water in order to see if my little idea will work. :)

Greywolf


  SamTherapy    ( ) ( posted at 8:29PM Wed, 11 July 2007  · @3023898

I assume you approach it the same way in P7 as in P6 and forget about transparency.  It's all in the reflection and refraction, as I understand it.

As for colour, well, white would be your best bet for the DIffuse and Specular, IMO.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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  Greywolf Starkiller    ( ) ( posted at 9:43PM Wed, 11 July 2007  · @3023950


Experimenting a bit with some rough displacement and transparency maps. Looks pretty
good from pinup distance. I need to fudge the maps in PSP to get it looking better from 
close up. Also need to figure out how to get it looking like water. :) How's it lookso far?

Greywolf


  Greywolf Starkiller    ( ) ( posted at 11:27PM Wed, 11 July 2007  · @3023996


Getting there. It looks better in close ups since I added a glossy node to alt spec and turned
both defuse and spec to black. Still need to tweek the displacement map. 2D stuff is not my
strong suit alas. Neftis had the original idea with the displacement maps, and I added another
idea to it. Not perfect yet, but I'll try to fine tune it during my off time over the next few days. :)

Greywolf


  ClawShrimp    ( ) ( posted at 11:36PM Wed, 11 July 2007  · @3024003

That's really quite cool.

I've seen this aproach taken before, but the results have always been a little perculiar - This one isn't.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread :).

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!


  Greywolf Starkiller    ( ) ( posted at 12:01AM Thu, 12 July 2007  · @3024015

That's because the previous attempts applied the displacement to the figure's head texture.
It generated some nice results, but you could see that the tears were just raised skin. This
could be rectified, somewhat, but adding nodes to change color and/or hightlights. Not perfect,
but useful in a pinch. I'm taking this idea a step further, though I'm surprised no one thought of
this before I did. :)  I exported the figure head as an OBJ file, having ONLY the last item on the
export list checked, the one that preserves material groups. This is best done ONLY after pose,
expressions, and character are done. Import the head with NO boxes checked. It should load
into the same position as the original head. Parent it to the original head, turn ALL mats on the
prop head to 100% transparency. Put the displacement and trans maps on the MAT for the
head skin. You'll need to tweek and fiddle to get it right. I'm not there yet, but someone with
more time than I currently have, may get it perfect. If so, please post. :)

Greywolf


  EnglishBob    ( ) ( posted at 4:40AM Thu, 12 July 2007 · edited on 4:40AM Thu, 12 July 2007 · @3024114

Attached Link: Water material in MT5 format


This is what I used last time I needed water - this was slightly dirty water, but change the colours to white and you should have a good starting point, at least.


  kalon    ( ) ( posted at 6:36AM Thu, 12 July 2007  · @3024140


You could try this (courtesy of Bagginsbill tutelage)...

kalonart.com

  EnglishBob    ( ) ( posted at 6:45AM Thu, 12 July 2007  · @3024145

That does have the advantage of simplicity. :) Mine has bump and displacement nodes, which aren't needed for smooth water; and the fresnel node seems like a more efficient way of getting reflection and refraction. I'll be trying that.


  kalon    ( ) ( posted at 8:03AM Thu, 12 July 2007 · edited on 8:04AM Thu, 12 July 2007 · @3024178

Content Advisory! Nudity advisory.

The water in both of these images was done with the Fresnel node

(the drip in the front left)
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1470726&member

this one features (I think, not home, can't check) an fbm node driving the displacement
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1437286&member

kalonart.com

  EnglishBob    ( ) ( posted at 8:18AM Thu, 12 July 2007  · @3024182

Nudity at the first of those links, BTW. It's ok, I haven't been fired. :) The water in the second is indeed very good. If you find the node set-up, I'd appreciate your sharing it.


  kalon    ( ) ( posted at 8:26AM Thu, 12 July 2007  · @3024184

Mind like a sieve. As I was making the link I told myself to set the nudity flag, then promptly forgot. So sorry.

kalonart.com

  lkendall    ( ) ( posted at 12:49PM Thu, 12 July 2007  · @3024329

7/12/07

Greywolf:

I believe that 2nd Face, 2nd Skin could do what you are trying to do, and might take less fiddling to get it to work.

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=45047&Start=31&TopID=10626.10858.

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=36265&Start=31&vendor=Dimension3D

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.


  kalon    ( ) ( posted at 6:55PM Thu, 12 July 2007 · edited on 6:57PM Thu, 12 July 2007 · @3024656


EnglishBob--

Pictured water without postwork, link for material in next post...

kalonart.com

  kalon    ( ) ( posted at 6:56PM Thu, 12 July 2007  · @3024658


Fresnel based water material

kalonart.com

  Angelouscuitry    ( ) ( posted at 3:32AM Fri, 13 July 2007 · edited on 3:32AM Fri, 13 July 2007 · @3024907

Bagginsbill's Matmatic does some nice things with water, free!


bagginsbill


bagginsbill


Me


  EnglishBob    ( ) ( posted at 3:33AM Fri, 13 July 2007 · edited on 3:34AM Fri, 13 July 2007 · @3024909

Thanks kalon! I'll give that a try some time.


  shedofjoy    ( ) ( posted at 4:55AM Fri, 13 July 2007  · @3024943

bmk

I post forum coments from my phone,woe is the pace of technology, now where is poser for android?

  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 8:08AM Fri, 13 July 2007  · @3025007

Attached Link: Water on Glass

More water tricks, FYI.

The second skin approach can work but its hard. Angelouscuitry, I haven't forgotten about working on this. I'm just up to my ears in shader projects and that one has fallen rather low on the list of priorities.

Most people (you included) want to see more skin shader work for other figures. I'm working on that.

Then there's my carpenter kit - haven't worked on that in weeks.

I've got lots of requests to finish both of those.


Renderosity forum reply notifications have been wonky in the past. I'm testing the waters to see if it's working now. If you ask me something and I don't come back, it probably isn't. (Updated January 17, 2017)

  Angelouscuitry    ( ) ( posted at 11:47AM Fri, 13 July 2007  · @3025148

Yes Sir,

I would, definately, love to see your Skin Shader for; V3, D3, M2, or JamesG2!

Carpenter Kit, I've never heard of that?  Is it like an addition to the Columns Shaders, that carved out nice Spirals, from the MatmaticBeta1 thread?

Thanks Again,

Angelouscuitry~


  BeyondVR    ( ) ( posted at 5:06PM Fri, 13 July 2007  · @3025358

Angelouscuitry, how did you get that Matmatic water to work?  I downloded it quite a while ago, but it rendered in stripes with huge gaps.  I tried a few things, then forgot all about it.

Also, I've never seen the tub water.  Way cool!  Can I find that at RDNA?  I'm on dialup, and it's dreadfully slow for me.  Is it in the Node Cult forum?  Thanks for any help!

John


  Greywolf Starkiller    ( ) ( posted at 9:13PM Fri, 13 July 2007  · @3025434

Hmmm. Interesting MATs to experiment with when I get some time. I'm currently learning
Hexagon so I can model in something that can interface with DS or Poser. Truespace was
nice, but only Bryce can use COB files. :) Still haven't got decent tears for close up, though they
look well enough from a distance. 

Greywolf


  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 10:11PM Fri, 13 July 2007  · @3025463


Here's a demo of the carpentry kit.

Every object that looks like wood is a Poser box or one-sided square. All of the wood grain and the cut or rounded shapes is done in a shader. No modelling.


Renderosity forum reply notifications have been wonky in the past. I'm testing the waters to see if it's working now. If you ask me something and I don't come back, it probably isn't. (Updated January 17, 2017)

  Greywolf Starkiller    ( ) ( posted at 11:21PM Fri, 13 July 2007  · @3025489

The Master of Materials strikes again! Looking good, VERY good. Bagginsbill, do you know
of any detailed MAT room tutorials on the various nodes and what they do, that I can DL?
The Poser MATs have definitely taken a HUGE step from Poser PP. I have 5 and 6 as well, 
but I ignored the MAT room until I got Poser 7, so I'm a bit of a newbie in MATs I'm afraid. :)


  Angelouscuitry    ( ) ( posted at 12:23AM Sat, 14 July 2007 · edited on 12:27AM Sat, 14 July 2007 · @3025508

"Most people (you included) want to see more skin shader work for other figures. I'm working on that."

Awsome, yes, definatetley; I honestly believe, the potential of, these shaders will easily be your greatest accomplishments! I've really got my fingers crossed. I've been wondering; how much of a difference the V3 Shader would be, from AM, other than just changing the actual texture(UV) map referrences?

"The second skin approach can work but its hard. Angelouscuitry, I haven't forgotten about working on this."

2nd Skin for which shader? I do'nt remember waiting on any, I've been able to get around using a 2nd Skin, with Blender nodes; that I'd have needed several 2nd Skin figures for. 

*"...and the cut or rounded shapes is done in a shader. No modelling."

*This is just what I'd imagined. Very nice.

*"Angelouscuitry, how did you get that Matmatic water to work?"

*I'm not sure which Water Shader your referring to?

Remember, the first two images were'nt rendered by me, bagginsbill did those. This is why I put his name directly under those two images, for credit.

bagginsbill is the Man; he's really generous, and may be able to give you a hand with Dial-Up, here at renderosity.


  kalon    ( ) ( posted at 8:21AM Sat, 14 July 2007  · @3025635

@ Greywolf

There are quite a few material node tutorials at www.castleposer.co.uk/my_tutorials.html

kalonart.com

  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 9:04AM Sat, 14 July 2007  · @3025649

Quote - Angelouscuitry, how did you get that Matmatic water to work?  I downloded it quite a while ago, but it rendered in stripes with huge gaps.  I tried a few things, then forgot all about it.

Also, I've never seen the tub water.  Way cool!  Can I find that at RDNA?  I'm on dialup, and it's dreadfully slow for me.  Is it in the Node Cult forum?  Thanks for any help!

John

 

I posted that bathtub picture multiple times but I deleted the material right after the render. I do this a lot because I make several hundred shaders every week - keeping them is pointless.

I've made others similarly - it is only two nodes.

You can see how it's done in this thread.

Regarding your problems with matmatic water, you'll have to point me to which one you tried and what problem you encountered. If you're talking about the open ocean material, I remember having to explain about that multiple times. The displacements produced by the simulation of open ocean involve moving the surface as much as 4 feet from its original position. Such large displacement is not handled by default render settings. But rather than go into that now, you need to tell me which material, and show me the problem, and possibly show me your render settings. 

I guarantee you that all my demonstrations were real. I don't do post work so if I can do something in Poser, you can do it too. There is no skill involved, just settings.


Renderosity forum reply notifications have been wonky in the past. I'm testing the waters to see if it's working now. If you ask me something and I don't come back, it probably isn't. (Updated January 17, 2017)

  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 9:10AM Sat, 14 July 2007  · @3025653

Quote - Bagginsbill, do you know
of any detailed MAT room tutorials on the various nodes and what they do, that I can DL?
The Poser MATs have definitely taken a HUGE step from Poser PP. I have 5 and 6 as well, 
but I ignored the MAT room until I got Poser 7, so I'm a bit of a newbie in MATs I'm afraid. :)

 

That castle poser link is the best. JR has put a lot into explaining many of the nodes. 

Unfortunately, that is only scratching the surface. Learn to make your render settings produce fast results. Then practice practice practice. When I'm developing a shader I make small changes and render, small changes and render, over and over. This is how I learned all the individual nodes and what their parameters do in detail. I do between 200 and 1000 renders a week. All get thrown away. I'm often not even paying attention. I'm merely showing data to my subconcious and letting it sort it all out. I can't tell you how many natural phenomena I accidentally found in the node settings. After seeing them a few hundred times, I know what to do to get those again.

Beyond that, combining the nodes into big complicated shaders with specific goals is tricky. No books on that at all. Maybe I should write one.


Renderosity forum reply notifications have been wonky in the past. I'm testing the waters to see if it's working now. If you ask me something and I don't come back, it probably isn't. (Updated January 17, 2017)

  bagginsbill    ( ) ( posted at 9:20AM Sat, 14 July 2007  · @3025657

Angelouscuitry,

There would not be much difference between AM and any other figure, other than change the textures. However each figure could use some personal touches. For example, for AM I did a cornea bulge in the shader because he had no morph for that. The cornea bulge is not needed for most characters. As I said in other threads, people who use matmatic should be able to make the AMUCFS script work for any character, using any textures. I'm pursuing a different approach that does NOT involve editing a script, because I'm constantly being reminded that the vast majority of people simply cannot follow instructions, no matter how simple. When I tell people that all they need do is edit a file name in the script they GLAZE OVER. Everybody wants a GUI. I'm actually very good at complex GUI development, but Poser's restrictions and lack of GUI API (except TK which I hate and doesn't work on MAC) have hindered me to no end.

It is my intention to put together a GUI front end for UCFS that would let you assemble skin, nails, eye white, iris, cornea, pupil, teeth, and other kinds of specialized shaders for any character. Then I would just give you different kinds of shader templates, and you use this hypothetical GUI tool to combine them for you figure.


Renderosity forum reply notifications have been wonky in the past. I'm testing the waters to see if it's working now. If you ask me something and I don't come back, it probably isn't. (Updated January 17, 2017)

  SamTherapy    ( ) ( posted at 9:35AM Sat, 14 July 2007 · edited on 9:37AM Sat, 14 July 2007 · @3025663

Quote - ...combining the nodes into big complicated shaders with specific goals is tricky. No books on that at all. Maybe I should write one.

 

You definitely should.

BTW, I'm just now experimenting with your water shader.  Excellent work, Sir.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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  Angelouscuitry    ( ) ( posted at 10:09AM Sat, 14 July 2007  · @3025682

*"It is my intention to put together a GUI front end for UCFS that would let you assemble skin, nails, eye white, iris, cornea, pupil, teeth, and other kinds of specialized shaders for any character. Then I would just give you different kinds of shader templates, and you use this hypothetical GUI tool to combine them for you figure."
*Wow, that could be incredible!

/me "Hail Mary, full of grace...."

I was thinking the skin alone would be out of this world, but then I would never complain about having the other functions, right there at hand, in a GUI!

In *"...templates...," do you mean Texture Maps?


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