I had this picture in my mind of a dragon perching on the edge of a building, where you can't see the dragon, just a black outline against the sky, then to the side some sort of close up zoomed in view of the dragon with details unfortunately it didn't come out nearly as nice as I had hoped, c'est la vie I guess =) rendering took two and a half minutes due to Anton's dragon/dragon poses...it's moved from the default pose 'tho then a while in photoshop 'cause I'm still not used to the controls *grin* all criticsm welcome =) SewerRat