I see many of even the tattoed skin textures in RMP seem as though the tattoo is a stick on decal tatto... how best do we get the look of ink under skin? A little blur... color burn?

You started me thinking and I think this would be a great question to ask bagginsbill**.
**I'm sure you could get very realistic tattoos using a texture plugged into a shader node - some transluency and blur/noise to give "under the skin" appearance.
Just a thought.

The answer depends on whether or not you have a layer mask for the tattoo. If you don't have a layer mask, then the answer depends on whether the tattoo layer has a unique color for the "not tattoo" parts, such as black or white.

Also, as ashley9803 suggests, I can do it with nodes instead of Photoshop. I like the node approach because:

I can skip all that workflow associated with switching between Photoshop and Poser, saving the image and doing test renders. The material room preview will show me exactly what I'm going to get.
I can size, position, and rotate the tattoo in shaders.
I can easily layer many tatoos in the shader, giving more options for combinations.

How do you want to proceed? What's your scenario?

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Once again, you prove why you're up for Godhood, bagginsbill! Is there a tutorial in the process here for those of us who are node illiterate?

As far as doing it with nodes, I would have just a tattoo image and a mask of it to work with. The idea is to place it to look under the skin so to speak. I would prefer a monochrome to a color if it made it easier to have it look in the skin as opposed to on the skin.

But "on the skin brings up an other issue... I once was able to make grease paint, such as a white clown face, that did look on the skin as opposed to the skin simply changed in color, but now I can't recreate the effect, I can't rember how I got the look of opaque white over my texture but retaing the texture look not just with a bump map but on the texture image as well.

OK. I'll be back. I have to go to a meeting now.

But have a look at this. Is the effect what you're looking for? This is V4 with a butterfly image blended in with nodes. Of course your tattoo can be any image. The technique I'll show you involves having a color map and a transparency map for the tattoo. Or it will also work if you just have a stencil and no color - we can do the color in the nodes too.

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Brand new tattoo's tend to have the 'on skin' look, and the ones that have healed up look like they sunk in a bit.

For the healed tattoo In photoshop, I would probably try to sandwich the tattoo image between two skin layers, the top one being rather transparent, and play with some more blending, blurring and transparency options.

You may be able to do similar in Poser using shader nodes, and blend them at different intensities, little diffusion, little bit of a bump coming from both, the skin and the tatoo (for the fresh tatto look)

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I think I am more likely to go with a stencil since that might look more imbeded in the skin. What you have here looks pretty go though still a bit stick-on. I wonder how it would be possible to get more of the skin variaton added to the tattoo so there appeared to be skin over it? In photoshop there is the buisness of soft light and hard light which give the feeling of either being blended under or over the base... both do unwanted color shifts though. I wonder if a crude simulation of skin over the tatto could be obtained by blending a granite node with the stencil before blending it to the skin... noise like that can fool the eye even if it is not a true match to the surrounding area. Maybe some sort of edge blender on the tattoo before it is blended to the skin... would that make any sense? The ink would look deeper under the skin on the oblique angle? But if this is to be something I can do it must not be too complicated... I have unreasonable trouble understanding Poser math nodes. Thank you for your interest.

Connie, that is good obvious advise! I had not thought to just put the skin over the tattoo rather than vis versa! Here I am spinning my wheels with layer style tricks! Man, I get trapped with ways of thinking about a problem and then someone can through fresh air on the situation with a simple comment! I'll have to see how it works :)

:) Glad to be of help!
For me it always helps to bounce ideas off of someone... often it opens up all new horizons! (darn things hiding in plain sight too)

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..

I went to look for tattoo images online, to see their characteristics... this website has some pretty decent size pics:
http://www.ratemyink.com/?action=ssp&pid=28050&cat=1

What I'm noticing a lot with more modern tatoos is that the colors are still vibrant and not very blurred, but skin pores and their mild bumps are still visible, along with a tad of the darker pore discoloration. Especially through lighter colors.

The specularity and shine is that of the skin, it's not changed by tattoo's presence.
The older the tattoo, the softer (blurrier) the lines, and the more color shifting it has. Probably has to do with quality too. :)

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You may also want to use this link for references (sorry, that is the name of the online mag!):

http://www.prickmag.net/tattoos.html

There is also Tattoo magazine which you can get at your local bookstore, Hot Topic, Spencer's, or tattoo shop.

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Hmmm. Well this is a pretty subtle effect you're looking for. Perhaps I chose a bad image to use. Also, it was far enough away that it was hard to see what was going on.

How does this look?

I'm just grabbing images from the web looking for clipart that sort of looks like a tattoo. Part of the problem I have is that real tattoo artists use more gradients than this.

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I think two other things which increase realism are some slight blurring, presumably due to colour bleed, and old tats especially seem to go sort of blurred round the edges of any block of colour; and secondly the imperfections inherent in the process. I don't suppose live skin is particularly easy to colour, there are bound to be small areas of less pigment, some areas which the tattooist never coloured at all, and so on. A problem with using clip art, especially if created originally in a vector package, is that it looks too perfect for a real tattoo.

Steve

How does this look?

It looks great. I think the only detail though is that the tattos I see at least are shadded with a stippling technique. I think that it should be possible to get stippling by doing a conversion in photoshop. Convert to B&W using an adaptive diffusion pattern and apply as a luminosity level. Maybe just the grain filter will do on the other hand.

Since tattoo ink is deposited into the dermis layer (below the epidermis), one can say that it is actually below the skin - but actually just below the first skin layer. This is only about 1mm below the surface so for most 3D CG it would probably be a bit too much to attempt that level of detail.

But if you are looking for 'truly authentic and realistic' at close range, then an overlay of the skin texture with a particular amount of transparency should do nicely. Not sure how all of this would affect sub-surface scattering (as tattoos are sub-surface). As noted, 'surface' irregularities in the skin are still present (bumps, wrinkles, pores).

At any distance from the skin, getting too complex would be overkill. Follow bagginsbills method and you'll be okay. But definitely consider references and the age of the tattoo.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

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well you got me hooked, how is this done with shaders??????

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

I'll show you - gonna take me a little while to prepare screen shots for the tutorial.

It amuses me that everyone is suggesting some form of blending/partial transparency of the tattoo image with the skin image, and that is precisely what I'm doing. Perhaps you want a greater fraction of skin in the blend. No matter - I leave the artistic choices to you. But straight blending alone with a low fraction on the tattoo simply makes a faded stained look. You lose a lot of the tattoo color and darkness that way. I'm using a couple extra nodes to keep almost all the variation in skin color overlayed witht the tattoo color. But the skin I'm using doesn't have much variation to begin with, so there isn't a lot to preserve. Maybe you want me to actually increase the skin color variations somewhat. I'll show you how. It's really easy.

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While we're at it-anyone know of a good way to do a full back tatoo without distorting the texture
or wrecking it with seams? shaders would be really cool, but a method to paint it on the texture
would work also......trying to recreate a friend for a birthday present-and having nothing but
trouble:)

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When I say transparency, I mean a a very small bit of the skin color map (since the tattoo does lie about 1mm below the surface) and more from the specular and bump maps since these features are truly above the tattoo.I definitely agree here that blending with the tattoo at a low value thereof is incorrect. The epidermal layer is very translucent and the coloration stills shows vibrantly in a relatively new tattoo and doesn't fade extensively with age (all things considered of course).

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

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Kuro - I had blended 60% of the skin and 40% of the tattoo color and the skin variation barely shows up. And I made no change to the specular. Again, specular is obvious against bright skin, not so obvious against dark tatoo. The issue is the skin variations or specular effects are TINY and only noticeable when the overall brightness is high. Consider the variation between RED 200 and 220 - its clearly visible. But put a black or other dark color tattoo there, and then the difference between 30 and 50 is almost invisible. Now consider that when blending at, say 50%, the variation is cut in half, so it is only 30 to 40. You can't see that except on really expensive monitors.

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OK here's the tut. I can think of other ways to do this, possibly keeping even more skin color variation. Follow along and see what you get. If you want a more advanced way of keeping more skin texture, come back and ask. It's just a couple more nodes.

First, open the skin shader for where you want the tattoo. I'm using the hip.

I'm using V4 because it is pretty complicated, so you'll see how to handle this case.

Track down where the color map is going. In the V4 shader, it goes to two places. I opened the node so you can see where it goes.

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Insert a Blender node between the color map and all the places it used to go.

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OK Now it gets a little tricky. Insert an Image_Map and load your tattoo mask. Also insert 3 math functions. This may seem silly, but you'll see why this is a big advantage later.

Connect the first to your U_Scale and V_Scale. This will control your overall tattoo scale. I adjusted the value to 8% of the original size.

Set U_Offset = 1 and connect to the second math function. This is your horizontal position. I used .21 to move my butterfly over the right buttock.

Set V_Offset = 1 and connect to the third math function. This is your vertical position. I used .26 to move it to the hip.

Set the Image_Mapped = None so the mask does not repeat.

Set the Background = BLACK so the rest of the mask is black.

Connect the mask to the Blender:Blending input. Put a dark color in Input_2 of the Blender. Render. You should see the tattoo mask on your figure. For monochrome tattoos, this is all you need to do.

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If you have a tattoo color map, load it into another Image_Map. Connect up this Image_Map to the same 3 math functions as before. Now you see the magic. As we move or scale the mask, we also move or scale the color map in perfect synchronization.

Change the Blender:Input_2 to white, and connect to the tattoo color map. Render. You should see a faded copy of your tattoo.

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Now the Blender is doing 50-50 between skin and tattoo color maps. This makes the tatoo look faded. To recover the dark colors, increase the tattoo color map Texture_Strength. I raised mine to 1.3 here. This darkens and intensifies colors (away from white) on any texture. Neat huh?

You can play with these two things. Try even lower Blending, and higher Texture_Strength. You can make the skin variations more or less visible this way.

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A bit of experimenting revealed that the Specular on this shader is really really low.

So I opened up the Blinn node, which is where the specular is being made. I insert a Math Function:Add with Value_2 connected to my tattoo mask. Then I kept increasing the Value_2 until at 10 it looked like I had a lot more specular, BUT ONLY ON THE TATTOO.

This lets you make the tattoo shinier than the skin, as you like. In this case, the tattoo is 11 times shinier (1 + 10) than the skin.

I also found that the Bump amount on this shader was really low - perhaps too low. I raised it to .04 instead of .02. This made the skin bumples much more visible. You would have to do this to all skin zones to match. Or, you could do math functions to only increase the bump over the tattoo. If you want to see that, ask.

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Here's a closeup of the final effect. Thoughts?

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10/17/07

Renee1234:

*"While we're at it-anyone know of a good way to do a full back tatoo without distorting the texture or wrecking it with seams? shaders would be really cool, but a method to paint it on the texture would work also......trying to recreate a friend for a birthday present-and having nothing but trouble:)"

I just found this application while looking through Renderosity Software for something else and I remembered your question. It may let you apply a tatoo across the entire back.

DecalMaster, current price in US dollars - $31.45
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=59686

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

One thing about the Blinn node is that it is *way* stronger on rim lighting. From this angle, the 11x specular is way too much.

If you have this problem, just decrease that specular multiplier for the tattoo.

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Here I changed the 10 to 2 - much better.

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The effect looks great there, bill. I would suggest that the reason people arent' completely convinced by it is that it's not a great tattoo in and of itself - which is not your fault, since you were just using a simple image as a demonstration.

I do wonder if the specular is a little high on the finished result - it reminds me more of those kiddie tattoos that you put on with water, rather than the 'proper' adult ones. Still, that could just be personal taste. Great work on working this one out for us!

JonTheCelt

Thanks Jon. Yes my point is always do what's right for *your* art. I'm not saying you should boost the specular, just if you want that, here's how. And it *does* look like a decal tattoo, eh?

@Renee:

Blacksmith 3D Paint can do what you want, and the basic version is free. Here I opened up V3, and clicked my butterfly onto her back. Look on the right side at the resulting color map. You can see that the program took the image apart for me and rotated and scaled the butterfly in two pieces to make it work out seamlessly. You can do this across material zones, too, like head/neck/torso.

The program is a little tricky to learn, but very powerful. The free version will not do above 1K by 1K on a color map, though. For really high-res work, and also to enable all the tools, you should buy it.

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Quote - 10/17/07

Renee1234:

*"While we're at it-anyone know of a good way to do a full back tatoo without distorting the texture or wrecking it with seams? shaders would be really cool, but a method to paint it on the texture would work also......trying to recreate a friend for a birthday present-and having nothing but trouble:)"

I just found this application while looking through Renderosity Software for something else and I remembered your question. It may let you apply a tatoo across the entire back.

DecalMaster, current price in US dollars - $31.45
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=59686

LMK

Thanks!

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After exporting that color map made by Blacksmith, I used it like this. When you have a tatoo on a white background, you don't even need a mask. Just multiply it using a Color_Math node with your original skin texture.

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Few food for thought type critical comments on the last image from the first page of comments :)

It's looking great, and much closer. Still a little bit of a stick-on look to it.
I wonder if there's a way to sink it in, and leave a very transparent film of skin under it. Perhaps a soft edged bump mask... Something that would create that 'floating under a thin layer of almost transparent skin' look. The outer edges need blurring :)

The specularity of the black and colored in areas on the highlight shouldn't be more then that of the skin around it. I think having it different contributes to the shiny stick on look in the tatoo area only.

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I have to agree with Conniekat8 here. New tattoos (very new - as in a few days old) look just like they were painted on the skin. This is due to two reasons: ink still persists in the epidermis and the skin is still 'wounded'. Skin is replaced over time. Any residual ink in the epidermis will be removed by healing and this process.

But older tattoos are below the skin. I think that the image at the end of the first page is the best of the lot so far. Again, depending upon how accurate the representation is to be, it is best to study real tattoos from a variety of sources - a real person would be optimal. Tattoos are definitely not sharp edged. They may appear that way in photographs - but there is a bleeding of the ink under the skin. So maybe a blur node would be called for (seeing that there is none I'm not sure what the analog would be).

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

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WoW! Thanks.

Here's what I know - to simulate it being under a layer of translucent skin, you must blend more skin color. As soon as you do that, the whole thing becomes faded like this. I even used a Fractal_Sum here so the amount of blending is variable. I don't think the epidermis is that opaque.

I think the #1 reason you don't believe my butterfly is because it is a photo of a butterfly, or a very photorealistic drawing.

I can't find a single legit tattoo color map and mask anywhere, and I can't draw to save my life.

If you have a properly drawn properly styled image, it will look vastly different, especially if the transparency mask is a gradient instead of all or nothing like I'm using.

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I found a better image in the right style. I got rid of the specular boost. This is just multiplying the tattoo with the skin, then blending that back with the skin, keeping 60% original skin.

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Another one. Blurred slightly in photoshop. Then multiplied with skin, then blended with skin at 80%.

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From a distance.

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> Quote - I found a better image in the right style. I got rid of the specular boost. This is just multiplying the tattoo with the skin, then blending that back with the skin, keeping 60% original skin.

OMG Bill this is A.M.A.Z.I.N.G. Your skills are endless!

The last butterfly tattoo looks more like a tattoo. yes, the image choice has something to do with it as well, but I think you have the skin overlay pretty close in the last butterfly. :) It has that slightly blended slightly muted look that healed tatto's get :)
The girls are looking a lot more like tattoo's as well.

I'd look for some tribal or celtic weave or ornament for the testing. Might be a bit easier to get the right under the skin look witha a single color/tone image :) HTH!

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You may be able to grab an experimental image from here: http://www.daytonsigns.com/dayton_signs_097.htm

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Yes - well - you know - "girls only want boyfriends who have great skills."

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - Yes - well - you know - "girls only want boyfriends who have great skills."

heehee very true...

Tribal - slightly blurred - simple blend with a dark blue, 80%.

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.

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YUP YUP, that's looking a lot like a tattoo!

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I always thought a tiny butterfly on the small of the female's back was sexy. That was until I heard it was referred to as the tramp stamp! :unsure:

Bagginsbill, you did an outstanding job with your tutorial. I tried it out with no complications whatsoever. Your images alone are self-explanatory. It is a neat trick to link the picture and mask together so that when you make changes to just one blender, like you stated, affects everything. Plutom

Quote - Tribal - slightly blurred - simple blend with a dark blue, 80%.

That's it. Perfect for this type of single-toned tattoo.

A note: I don't have any tattoos, only piercings. No amount of tattooing is going to make me look 'sexier'. ;) But know many people with them.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Quote -
Blacksmith 3D Paint can do what you want, and the basic version is free. Here I opened up V3, and clicked my butterfly onto her back. Look on the right side at the resulting color map. You can see that the program took the image apart for me and rotated and scaled the butterfly in two pieces to make it work out seamlessly. You can do this across material zones, too, like head/neck/torso.

The program is a little tricky to learn, but very powerful. The free version will not do above 1K by 1K on a color map, though. For really high-res work, and also to enable all the tools, you should buy it.

I was wondering how you import this butterfly to the program... I keep trying to do it but it always appear as a nem map...

If you mean Blacksmith - click as indicated. Then choose your image file from your disk.

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yeap, I did meant blacksmith

thanks ^^

I would have to admit, BB knows his stuff!! tried his work flow and was able to add a picture to a P4 shirt that did not have a texture map..... had to play around with the H and V position to get it to where I wanted it to be....but the final product was what I was looking for....

Thanks for the knowledge share....

cheers

vxg139

This is in response to BB's earlier posts, regarding the Butterfly.

Good but...

real tattoos tend to have slightly faded and blurry edges, even very new, very good ones. I had one a couple of weeks ago - my son's name - and even though it's sharp and clear by tattoo standards, it's definitely not print quality. A new tattoo would also look a bit raised above the skin, since the skin swells slightly. After all, it's been injured.

The other thing I noticed about the above image are the antennae. I don't think it's possible to get such a fine line in a tattoo.

I also have a band around one arm - done about 12 years ago - which is very definitely blurred in places.

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I don't think we should lose sight that BB was simply suggesting a novel way of adding textures/images within the Poser.....Also, lets not forget, we are dealing with CGI, not real life.....

I would still take my hat off to BB for his skill sets and willingness to share his knowledge....

Cheers

vxg139

Definitely so. Reading further on into the post, the results are very good. The tribal tattoo is very impressive.

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Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but... since the value for diffuse color is turned off is there a way to use this with the SSS wacro in PP2012/P9? I thought maybe someone of you has tried it already - I did but it looked weirdly washed out putting the tattoo into the specular node and turning on diffuse wasn't much better, but it might be me?

Quote - The answer depends on whether or not you have a layer mask for the tattoo. If you don't have a layer mask, then the answer depends on whether the tattoo layer has a unique color for the "not tattoo" parts, such as black or white.

Also, as ashley9803 suggests, I can do it with nodes instead of Photoshop. I like the node approach because:

I can skip all that workflow associated with switching between Photoshop and Poser, saving the image and doing test renders. The material room preview will show me exactly what I'm going to get.

I can size, position, and rotate the tattoo in shaders.

I can easily layer many tatoos in the shader, giving more options for combinations.

How do you want to proceed? What's your scenario?

did you say you can rotate an image?

awesome thread. thank you so much.

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that looks fantastic bb :-) another point to metion for people attempting this,dont make the image too small, i.e really thin lines etc scale the image up to what would realistically be possible with a tattoo gun. ive seen tattoos with handwriting on them and its suprising how big the lines are,the subtle colours are done with very clever needle work on the artists part

A cleaved head no longer plots.

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Nice!

Hi

I am trying to get a simple black Text tattoo on an avatar, I am following the instructions BB has here, thank you, but for some reason my text is transparent and the background shows as a patch on the skin, I have tried black text and white text with transparnt background, black backdroundt et.c...

Anyone know what I am doign wrong?

thanks

a scrren shot of the node set up might help

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Attached Link: http://img258.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=026344524_Capture_122_482lo.JPG

![Node set up](http://img258.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=026344524_Capture_122_482lo.JPG%20%20%20%20 "Node set up")

Image or text the body of the tatto looks white, im unsur ehow to get it to be black or colors as it show sin the image itself?

thanks for any help

I think you would set the input2 color in the blender node you plugged that tattoo into to black. I might be wrong though.

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader Monster of the North and The Shimmering Mage

Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
Check out my store here or my free stuff here
I use Poser 13 and win 10

zenny1234, that link had some adult pop ups so I removed it. (http://www.renderosity.com/tos.php)

Go to page one of this thread, towards the bottom you will find the solution. You will need a mask to isolate the tatoo from the white background and input the mask into the blend attribute. The actual tatoo will be connected to the input_2.

BagginsBill, are you still online? I'm trying to make sure I'm getting the right tool for the right job and I'm trying to do something very similar to what you did above with the butterfly across the model's back. Question is: does BS3D still do this kind of thing. I'm asking because I wanted to find out before I drop $90 on a solution that might be useless for me. Thanks in advance.

I have no experience with BS3D. At the time of this thread I simply downloaded an evaluation copy and tried it. I never used it again after posting in this thread.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: best method for tattoos in Photoshop