bopperthijs, 

You hit it on the head, I got to this tread late. First off, When a person is shorter than average, there is usually slight differences in their perportions, the same holds true with the larger person.

The Vickys and Poser4  and all the charactures that are out there are set as a guide for the most Idealistic person of these times within the artist capablities. Case in point Look at the thighs touching in the Loomis drawing. That was great back then for Idealism. But today listen to the advertizements, One such ad in a weight loss promotion, a woman said, before my thighs touched now after so, and so,  they touch no more. 

I studied on Loomis's art and found it very inspiring. But were in a different era. If you look at the Nude paintings in the 1400-1500s Heavy women are more artistic to draw than a thin person. More things happen with the creases that lend itself to lighing and such. That is great for art, but that same reasoning can be implied to the drawing an old building which is more   interesting than a modern building for those same reasons. But keeping it all in context, You don't put a women out of perportion or overweigh in an beauty contest. They are two different reasoning there. It always comes around to what is happening in the the world at that time which is acceptable.

The example of the round anchent sculpture that bopperthijs showed was right on. Yes that looks cartoony for todays standards, but, if that wasn't Ideal for that artist, he could have made her thin. He migh not have had the great tools of today, but making her thin would have never been that big of a problem.

My biggest grip with M3 and V3 is they are so close to the same hight, which was mentioned and correctly so in these threads. It would be nice if V3 standard hight would have been about 3 inches shorter. Then when she wore her high heels she would be about the same size as M3, as apose to 3 inches taller in heels. I hate to have him lean his head back just to have her kiss him. LOL 

I don't do modeling of figures in 3D, I just don't have enough time. I do animation. but I have a big suspission that some of the problems are with the rigging  nature within Poser and the meshes is why some of the problems exist. Best example is the shoulders and legs. When the leg is lifted to high, the top of the thighs flatten out un-natural, as example. These are more probmatical than the proportions on making the figure look good. Things like that have to be touched up in renders and dealt with with magnets or mophs. 

What we are seeing is an evolution in Poser and all the charactures within and making them  so they function more natural. Remember Poser 2, 3 and 4 Charactures. The P4 charactures weren't that bad, but were way off  in capabilities to the Mike and Vicky upgrades. Todays figrueskeeping there body shapes to hold as they move so you don't have to tweek this and that. And messing with the Magnets. Thats great as an emergency solution. But when you have to use magnets in the middle of an animation that you can't get any other way slows the whole production down.

I think that the Loomis samples are a great thing to be aware of. I'm suprised that more people are not aware of the proportional issues in the body. Of course I'm old school, If you are not in an Art Instution where those are the building blocks and you just go into Poser for the fun of it, That will be the last thing a lot of people will think about.    The reality is, We are in the hands of the Artist who make the models. And overall I am pleased, and They are getting better at getting things the way we want them. Rome wasn't built in a year. If it was that easy there would be 10,000 models out ther, and everyone would have the characture they thought was best.