lol...Ive been with Poser since version3, so by virtue of paying for each upgrade ive earned the right to hate it. It used to be intuitive and fun, at least to me, but now...ugh...im waiting to be able to really use the daz3d and other figures in Carrara without any problems at all, so Im able to just use one program. Id click on a new eye and the new eye would be there, a quick render would show it to me, now if i don't check the materials room to make sure something is set to 0 instead of 1, then its not going to work properly... anyway....yeah ive read the books...gone through them..checked the tutorials... never seem to be any specific tutorials for the exact thing im having problems with, but... No, M, you didnt sound impatient or patronizing at all...i think it was more condescending, but thanks for your input...lol... i was just venting...in the middle of this project i wanted to do soemthing specific and it wasnt working out as well as it should have been...hence the reason i usually end up going back to using public domain photos... im looking forward to the day when theyll work out the computations to really get meshes to bend and react like a real body. thanks for the help sparrow and anx