Greg, you don't have to render an animation on my account, now. I can see that image. It's a comp, if not better. I hope I am not nuts, but I can't see/find any links in post#1. Got your IM with the links, however. So, assuming I could fiddle with the Poser animation I posted in #24 above and bring the quality of the realism up to your image/s, the comparison would be 4 minutes against 5 minutes. That's not as bad as I thought. However, I am not confident I can match your quality at 5 minutes. The outrageous stills (and soon an animation) I am getting in Poser, which IMHO DO equal Max/Maya realism, are in the range of 1800 seconds per frame. More to come. ::::: Opera :::::