So now I'll post MY hint for speeding up sym time, not that there is a thing wrong with the proxy ideas posted above. I just write down my settings for hair count, then reduce the density by 75% and run the sym. I then put the density back. I don't know if this idea is flawed....the results look fine, and it sure speeds up the sym. Also, I make the groups not being calculated invisible. That helps too. ::::: Opera :::::