hey guys, those are good suggestions for reducing the sym time. I have a few trickes like that in the bag and can add to your suggestions. But beyond the sym time........it's the dancing hair effect. Help me with that if you can. When you render the animation with the sym in place, which you created with collision on, You can't get the hair to lay still. Even if you halt ALL subtle movements, you know, those little head sways that add realism?.....the hair just won't settle down, strands keep moving as if avoiding collision. Any of you ever take strand hair with collision dynamics into a full render that has a stop in it? Does the hair fully stop for you? ::::: Opera :::::