well i got the basics, alot like poser and i'm decent at math, looks (only looked for a min) like the form for vc++ programming, which i also do :) so mostly after the types of things i can type in formulas cos/sin/tan/acos/asin/atan/log functions i've found other than that, just + - * / = so far as for rest of the shaders, the amount of choices and control are starting to look like poser is better for materials :x if poser had a formula node, i might accually give up here :P