First, you are correct about fastscatter/raytrace. That was my error, not face_offs. And, there is/was nothing needing raytrace in the scene. And, I agree: the raytrace in firefly is not good for general shadows. However, if you turn it on and attach AO in shaders on SOME items, and keep all hair invisible to raytrace, you get decent AO at tolerable times. The effects you are referring to in animation are probably the same found in Poser animation if the settings are too low. We call it "flicker" and yes, the solution is to jack up the bias and pixel settings. The byproduct of that is better shadow edges and hair strand resolution, so it is okay. But it slows render. Here's what I'm looking for: animation without flicker and damn good shadows and hair resolution on the level of the render on this thread (which was accomplished without AO and IBL, only high-setting depth-map-shadows and great skin shaders with fastscatter), but at at least twice the speed. So, it would have to be 40 seconds or less for 640x480. I don't even know if raytrace in Carrara is the answer, or HDRI lights, or AO, or??? it really does not matter, as long as I can get a render like that attached in 40 seconds. At twice speed for equal quality, it would be worth purchase and hassle of rendering outside of Poser. ::::: Opera :::::