Thank you both for the response. One thing thou TOXE, Infini-D 4.5, put out in 98 has most of the features of C3 @2003. Sure the renderer isn't as good, although with manipulation it could be (see RustBoy). Yes it doesn't have SubD, but just download Wings3D for free. I have spent quite a bit of time with C3 Beta (final version to arrive any day I hope), but I just think that Carrara Studio is really a super "Ray Dream Studio", which isn't a bad thing at all, but Carrara isn't a RD/ID hybrid. If they really wanted to make that they would have taken ID as the core program and added some RD features. By now, 2003, it would be able to compete with LW and much cheaper, with a superior interface (UI is my opinion, but check out some forums and old reviews...many think this way). And, finally I guess I am being nostalgic, but I still use ID 4.5 to this day and I would love to see Eovia (or someone else) bring it back. My hope is if there is enough noise...Eovia (being the great company they are)will listen. It's one man's dream