Our art is constantly being stolen and offered for sale through Second Life so this does not surprise me.
I had a suspicion that some unscrupulous folks were buying items from here and DAZ3D to upload into Second Life.
I don't blame you guys, and I can't believe that SecondLife is doing a copyright grab.
What is the word on OpenSim? If I buy merchant resources and modify them, am I allowed to use them in my own OpenSim server? Such as using fabric merchant resources to make clothing for use in my sim?
How does this effect previous creations in Second Life? Say that I have used modified textures purchased here in past creations for Second Life. Under this new TOS, would I have to remove them? Or are we just restricted from using them in future creations? *is confused*
Lovely- they've used the legal way to steal content, art, and all other creative works from the date the TOS went into effect, for every format now used or conceived of in the future for their use.
Just another reason why I never bothered with that entire SL ideal/program.
How nice! Legalized stealing is what this is then. I will have to change my TOU for my freebies too then. No one can use any of my stuff in Second Life either. Will up-date my website tomorrow!
I've ever been anywhere near Second Life so this is all a bit meaningless to me, but shouldn't you be sending out emails if there's a change to the use allowed for Renderosity products? Not everyone who's ever bought anything here is going to see this message!
They can't steal if we stop handing stuff to them.
I never did see the use of SL anyway, I have a pretty fair FIRST life.
Unbelievable? Nah, check out the TOS for sellers on ebay and Amazon. This is not new.
Which law gives Linden Labs the right to require those rights? Linden Labs must be aware that their users do not hold the rights to these products - at least not, when they do not make everything themselves. In such a case Linden Labs claims are illegal, since they can not require from their users the transfer of rights these users do not have. No matter how many TOS's of this kind they make, the law is not changed by them. This is NOT a legal way.
Sadly, Contract law gives them the right.. same as it gives Apple the right to limit what hardware you run their operating system on or playstation the right to disable Linux on your playstation.
You must agree to the terms of service to log in, this forms a contract between you and secondlife. They won't let you on without agreeing to the TOS. So you have a choice, don't use Second Life or agree they own everything you upload in perpetuity.
You cannot grant a copyright or a license to someone for which you do not own the copyright. I cannot email you a copy of the movie GONE WITH THE WIND and say "I grant you the copyright to this movie". The only content Second Life can grab is content for which the copyright is owned by the uploader.
That is plain theft... they have to know this.
This is why they include the boilerplate that if any part of the contract is found null by a court, the rest of it is still valid. Also, it is more likely that a court would find you guilty of fraud by selling/giving copyright you don't have than them in trouble for claiming copyright on something you gave them.
I agree it's not right, I agree that it shouldn't be legal... But that is the state of IP laws in our country.
If you upload a book you don't have copyright to onto Amazon, then you get in trouble, not Amazon. If you upload stuff you don't have copyright to onto Second life, then you get in trouble, not Second Life.
If you DO have the copyright to what you upload, then your contract says you're licensing the use of such copyrighted material to Linden Labs forever for free. Your not giving them your copyright, your retaining it. But your granting them a perpetual license to use it however they want.
You can still use it yourself, you can still sue people for taking it because you still have the copyright... but you can't go back later and tell Linden Labs that they have to remove your copyright material from their marketplace or that they can't sell it for 0L if they want to. Because your contract gave them the license to use it.
Pause for a second; they have to do this. It's also always been this way, unfortunately. In order for Second Life to show your character on someone else's screen, they have to copy your (let's say) skin texture, and provide it to any other users in the area, so everyone can see the same thing.
That's copying, in the eyes of the law. That's distribution. This isn't a 'land-grab' on their part, instead I'd argue they're just actually telling you what they've had to do all along.
Technically it's impossible to provide the service that Second Life does without extensive and vast copying and distribution of data. You're sending textures and models to between dozens and thousands of people, depending on how many can view a particular item/character. There's no way to do that AND respect copyright law on it, without a legal statement like the one they've included.
In summary, this isn't new, it's just them making explicit what was implicit before. And yes, Renderosity should probably have put a stop to it before. As much as they can, anyway...
N.b. I don't use Second Life (my partner will not allow it, on the (accurate) grounds that I'm likely to become addicted) but the technical and legal concerns for systems like that are very well known to me.
In my opinion, Second Life has just dragged the sharp edge of the proverbial razor across their own throats! Such legalized theft will not be tolerated for long by any content creator!
I will be sure to change my own TOS to state that the content I upload is not to be used in any way at Second Life! Furthermore, I shall be sharing the info about this with all of my friends! And I call for a boycott against Second Life! We can run them out of business folks!
wow I am a Second Life citizen since 2007 and this news shocks me. SL always said with proud that any creation there was property of creators, now they are changing that rule... I guess there will be a turmoil in SL.
It seems Linden Labs is doing all they can to destroy SL.
Which is why I have never, and will never have anything to do with SL or any similar entity.
If you re read the TOS, it states ..."Content you upload, publish, or submit to any part of the Service, you affirm, represent, and warrant that you own or have all necessary Intellectual Property Rights, licenses, consents, and permissions to use". So you have to show you own the items or have permission to let them have those rights. Could be a loop hole that can be used by a lawyer to take back from them.
Facebook did the same thing...
They aren't claiming "ownership" of any content in the new TOS. In fact, the new TOS clearly states that the copyright holder retains all copyright. What they are doing is grabbing a very broad blanket license which allows them to do anything under the sun with your content, including selling it in direct competition with you, its creator.
@cypherfox: While the distribution methods you describe *are* necessary for running the service, the TOS, as it is written, is not restricted to *only* those purposes. In fact, the language which used to be in the TOS prior to this version, stated:
"You agree that by uploading, publishing, or submitting any Content to or through the Servers, Websites, or other areas of the Service, you hereby automatically grant Linden Lab a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, sublicenseable, and transferable license to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform the Content solely for the purposes of providing and promoting the Service.”
That was the previous TOS. Notice it is restricted "solely for the purpose or providing and promoting the Service."
The new TOS now reads:
“Except as otherwise described in any Additional Terms (such as a contest’s official rules) which will govern the submission of your User Content, you hereby grant to Linden Lab, and you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free right and license to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, sell, re-sell, sublicense (through multiple levels), modify, display, publicly perform, transmit, publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and otherwise exploit in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof), for any purpose whatsoever in all formats, on or through any media, software, formula, or medium now known or hereafter developed, and with any technology or devices now known or hereafter developed, and to advertise, market, and promote the same.”
As you can see,the restriction on use "solely for the purpose or providing and promoting the Service" has been removed, and new language added which grabs very very broad "rights" in "any medium now known or hereafter developed." That very clearly is not a restriction to copying content for display on the SL viewer. It's much much more broad than that.
This effectively means that they can sell your content in direct competition with you, its creator. In fact, they are already testing selling content on amazon.com and having it delivered to in-world SL, and they recently purchased desura.com which is designed specifically for digital content distribution.
Blimey never heard of these people i wont be having anything to do with them for sure so thanks for heads up lou x
I am seeing similar and broad changes to TOS of a lot of places once used by creative folks transferring rights to the entity's that own the sites instead. Photobucket did something similar last year, forcing me to terminate an account of almost 8 years - DA is getting mighty close as well... it really perturbs me as an artist.
Try to manage your real life and make it more like you want it. Then you don't need a Second life, just to be the person you want to be.
"As you can see,the restriction on use "solely for the purpose or providing and promoting the Service" has been removed, and new language added which grabs very very broad "rights" in "any medium now known or hereafter developed." That very clearly is not a restriction to copying content for display on the SL viewer. It's much much more broad than that."
And that's the part that is the problem. Other than that it is pretty much standard that you have to have the right to distribute the game contents just to play the game.
The exclusion of that phrase amounts to "All your base belongs to us".
DAZ specifically does not allow you to use content in games unless you purchase a license for it. Since I don't create games I never read up on Rendo's version of that. Does your license allow the use of products in games to start with (outside of Second Life now, obviously)
WOW!!!... What is the world coming to?... I have no words (not kind anyhow) to describe how I feel about people that do things like these. Greedy, evil corporate ^%$%^&@!
I think ktris above is right... Nevertheless, the Renderosity team are doing the right thing here. Thank you for protecting your vendors! :)
Never been on second life, don't know how it is supposed to work, and wil definitely never ever go there or have anything to do with it! What wil they try next, closing down the courts and banishing lawyers, Unbelievable!
LOL, you mean some people actually still play that game.
Why should I worry, I've never heard of them.
Renderosity has always been my #1 E-store for my goodies. Nuff said!!
Wow -- that's kind of messed-up on Linden's part. A user purchases something or creates something to use in SL, and by doing so, Linden claims dibs on it? Sounds like a great way to drive away their user base and/or to stifle creativity in their community.
A new reason for me to not like Second Life
I do not know much about all the legal terms etc but over the yrs I have spent hundreds of pounds buying backgrounds in here to be able to use in my art and now I can't .... so all that money I have spent on them is useless...while I understand the concern of the the creators of things..it is people like me stuck in the middle who are suffering.
why anyone does the 2nd life thing..... is really disturbing..
Linden Labs is shady. E.O.S.
I"m sure I'm not the first to say this, but...
Second Life? Is that still around?
Never heard of second life and have no intention of going there now.
who cares about them anyway?
this site rocks!
Wow, first they have to eliminate their casinos, which eliminated about 90% of their user base, Now this... their goes their marketplace, it seems. Even if this is just a measure to make LL less responsible for their users, who is really gonna want to mess around with SL if they resort to claiming users content as their own, for whatever reason. Either way you slice it, this is going to tick off a lot of people.
This response from LL is interesting
Even more interesting is the fact that a response sent by Linden Lab to some blog out there on the interwebs isn't in any way legally binding, so if they really meant it, why not just amend the TOS, instead of releasing a public-relations "smooth-over" to some random website...
This is nothing compared to iTunes' ToS. The contract there sez you hereby agree to sign the next version of the contract they come out with - sight unseen.
I'm going to create some service and have a TOS that sez "You hereby agree to give us all your owned property and work for us in perpetuity, for whatever wage we deem appropriate." I might call it "Scientography".
I am sorry this is all new to me so I have ask these questions. Who what is second Life? Some of these terms of sale is very long to read one have be a lawer to under stand very thing.
ok i have a question i am a content creator for secondlife and am also going to be selling my creations on rendereosity will this be an issue? furthermore i do not think their intentions are to own all rights to your intellectual property i just think they have been sued so many times by users that they just want to clean their backs off of any liabilities people seek to sue them.. which is understandable..its simple if you do not like the rules of secondlife do not create content for secondlife and when you sell your product..make its clear in your tos or license that it is only to be used in certain grids or for personal works.From my experience secondlife products have been taken to other grids also for ages a problem they have been facing for a while
Do cats play on Ninth Life?
I met someone who used/played or whatever you do with SL, she was very odd and not quite right!!!! She tried to explain what it was all about, and I said you do what? Funny we have not spoken since lol.
Anyway seems to me this is stealing....
P.S. I do not wish to offend any SL users, it was purely my impression at the time, plus I have a first life to get into!!
Honestly, most Renderosity / DAZ content creators are seriously ASLEEP at the wheel here. The current Second Life TOS policy change is bad, sure. But look closer at the Second Life Marketplace. Piracy of content is HUGE over on Second Life, and has been for a LONG TIME. Worse, Linden Lab knowingly turn a blind eye to it all (while getting a 10% cut of every sale in the process).
(For what it's worth, I've been a semi-interested "resident" of Second Life on and off over the past few years, mostly lured by the ability to create in a realtime game engine environment. Building and shaping "prims" (primitives - cubes, cones, spheres etc) can be quite a lot of fun, although expensive depending on how much "land" you choose to rent or own).
Piracy/theft has always been a problem there. When I first started exploring Second Life around 2009, I was dumbfounded by the sheer level of blatant IP / copyright infringements going on. Note, that this was PRIOR to mesh being made available for uploading to Second Life... this was purely items created by inworld prims and "sculpties" linked together to create items. Also, stolen textures were (and still are) being blatantly sold on the Marketplace (I often recognized much of the material being offered).
However, once Linden Lab enabled MESH uploading around mid 2011, it opened a literal floodgate of piracy. Initially, the Linden Lab staff said they would actively work to restrict stolen content - by requiring people to have their real life payment and identity on record, so that illegal activities could be held accountable. At first, the amount of stolen mesh content uploaded was a trickle... unfortunately, Linden Lab have taken to a policy of ONLY removing illegal content IF NOTIFIED by the actual original content creators. This rarely happens, so the pirates have long since gotten confident that their illegal activities will go unpunished, and blatantly go about uploading and selling HUGE AMOUNTS of stolen meshes. Much of it is ripped out of 3D games (easily recognizable, especially well known game characters), and I've been spotting a LOT of content I have recognized from products for sale here on Rendo and DAZ3D.... Having bought a ton of Poser content over many years, I can quickly ID suspicious content I see on the Second Life Marketplace.
(Linden Lab have been acting as a "service provider" only, in effect washing their hands of actually policing for stolen content etc - mostly to avoid a legal quagmire. I can understand their stance, but I am also disgusted by their total LACK of any visible effort to at least stem the flood of piracy. They cannot say they don't know it's happening; it's as obvious as the nose in the middle of your face).
It's pretty disgraceful overall. As a "resident" there, I am pretty powerless to do anything. If I spot anything that I KNOW is stolen content, Linden Lab will NOT take action if I notify them about it myself... Instead, I have to track down the original content creator, notify THEM, and then THEY have to file an official DMCA with Linden Lab for them to even consider removing the item. So it's a long-winded process to even begin getting things I know are stolen removed. Hence the pirates just happily upload stolen content and make easy money. Nobody ever seems to get their fingers smacked, so every thief with half a brain is stealing any and every mesh that isn't nailed down and uploading it into Second Life to make easy cash. IF YOU THOUGHT BASIC PIRACY OF YOUR CONTENT WAS BAD ENOUGH... THESE LOWLIFES ARE NOW MAKING MONEY FROM YOUR HARD WORK AS WELL.
I initially thought that content created for RENDERING with in Poser/DAZ would be unusable in Second Life (far too high polycounts). However, I've had to discard this assumption, having seen for myself some of this stolen content inworld. High poly counts cause terrible framerates, of course, but people will still use them - the majority of Second Life users have no idea about optimisation for realtime environments (and don't care). GENUINE content creators also have no idea in general - a "more polys is better" mantra - so often meshes that would make Poser groan are used in Second Life's game engine. This said, Poser/DAZ meshes seem to be right at home there - people are stealing them, selling them, using them.
Take a look over at the Second Life Marketplace. Link: https://marketplace.secondlife.com (Be careful of the maturity ratings, especially if easily offended). Spend 15 minutes browsing, and I am sure you will be confronted by the sheer blatant piracy and IP theft going on.
Myself, I no longer create 3D content (I used to create freebies). Having seen the plethora of stolen meshes being actively sold on the Second Life Marketplace has made me give up in utter disgust (my own content has been stolen and resold there at times). Nothing is safe. Nothing is sacred. These thieves will steal and sell anything they can get their hands on - often selling "full perms" (full permissions within Second Life), meaning unsuspecting customers can then resell this stolen content later on in their own "creations". It's disgraceful.
So people.... if you thought the current Second Life TOS changes are a bad move..... WAKE THE HELL UP! Your hard work is already being actively stolen and profiteered from by thieving lowlifes. START KICKING BUTTS and protect your content!
I have used Renderosity fabric textures for clothes and some photoshop styles purchased in Renderosity for lettering etc on advertising my creations in SL. Does this mean I can do so no longer??
I'm amazed that high-poly models used in DAZ and Poser would even work in a game environment like Second Life.\
JeanneDeau: High-poly meshes DO function in the Second Life game engine - just VERY BADLY at this point in time (they cause terrible framerate drops when in view). Unfortunately, this doesn't deter people from stealing them to upload, nor does it deter customers from buying and using this stolen content via the Marketplace there. It's common practice for "residents" to whine and complain that Second Life is so laggy, and that it's all Linden Lab's fault for having bad servers and so on... yet virtually all the blame is squarely on these same residents' shoulders for using such terribly high-poly meshes in the first place.
Regarding the piracy of high-poly content, from here and other brokerage or mesh download sites... the thieves just don't give a damn. They steal it and sell it - they only care about making fast money. Props especially are commonly stolen and listed (virtually no skills are involved in getting those to work within Second Life).
Clothing is somewhat more difficult, since the thieves need to skill up a little and learn the basics of rigging to fit the Second Life avatar... yet this hasn't deterred some determined thieves to do so (I think they reckon that they can sell a lot more stolen content since fewer thieves are bothered to put in the effort). Items which can simply be attached to the avatar (same principle as parenting items to figures within Poser etc) are ludicrously easy to use within Second Life - hence piracy of footwear is rife... I have resorted to removing my freebie footwear listings here and at ShareCG due to it endlessly being uploaded and resold on the Second Life Marketplace. So if anyone reading this is a creator of footwear, jewellery and parentable props - start worrying big time.
Seriously, mesh creators here at Rendo, DAZ and elsewhere are pretty much completely unaware of how MUCH content is being blatantly stolen and resold over at Second Life (and I suspect at other virtual worlds such as Cloud Party etc). It's happening on a massive scale - people here need to wake up to the issue.
It will ONLY GET WORSE in the years to come... with computing power increasing at a rapid rate, it won't be long before poly heavy meshes will easily be able to be rendered in a game engine environment, and the piracy will be worse than ever. Virtual worlds such as Second Life are improving, especially now that rival environments are beginning to take hold or are in development. These places are based entirely around user created content, and monetizing them via currency exchanges. Just imagine Rendo or DAZ content being used for game engine environments instead of purely rendering only - it's not more than a few years before this starts to become a feasible reality with these places. With this, you can be GUARANTEED that the piracy will become worse than ever.
WAKE UP EVERYONE. This is going to bite all your backsides in the near future.
You Should look for NEMEZIDA shop in second life, here the SLURL : http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Dana%20Island/128/128/34
People owning this shop are selling mostly Renderosity's stuffs in second life, and at a very high price.
I buy backgrounds and i use them in my art with the SL avatars.... I have never sold the backgrounds alone as my own creations. In fact I often stick to the same creators and have spent hundreds of pounds to be able to use these under the license they sold with. I have not bought any new since this debate started as I have no idea how the license and TOS clash.... I fully understand the issue with stolen work but us normal people who follow the rules are paying...all I want to be able to do is use the backgrounds I paid money for in good faith that I can use them in my art.
I spent a lot of money on Renderosity and other like sites to use in my gallery and personal website. I small stories and use my characters in them.i never heard of this second life ans surely won't go on their site.my renders are mine to show in all my works and stories. I don't claim to originate the characters.If I am forced to stop using them as just posing them a little they go into my copyright I want my money back. I will keep updated on this matter.I know its not the fault of Renderosity. If I have to I will go back to drawing my scenes.Hopefully Renderosity will give us all what this all means ... Eddie
WTF is Second Life?
never heard of it.
On sat 19th october Linden labs will be having a meeting with a Q&A session about this. 10am SLT...please lets get it sorted out
I use some textures in clothing items I make for SL. I use a mix of my own and others, as well as brushes, actions and styles in photoshop for SL content creation. So, all the money Ive spent here on those things I now have to eat because you are banning it?
I do not resell the textures I buy, although I see others do.. So, I am pretty bummed you are banning use in SL and I've put hundreds of dollars into textures. Seriously bummed, I've sent the renderocity email for verification of this. But have yet to hear back.
Login and voice your opinion!
I use the textures to create clothing hats jewelry etc in second life, Ive never "stolen" anything in my life, now have I ever resold textures I purchased here there. But now as I read, all teh hundred of dollars Ive put into your content here to use, and I abide by the rules..as I understand it. So now, I am out hundreds of dollars and I cant do a thing with them because you ban it?? I understand your concerns with SL, I guess I wont be buying anything on renderocity anymore.