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Poser F.A.Q (Updated: 2015 May 22 11:51 am)


 Subject: BagginsBill, I need you again!

dphoadley opened this issue on Apr 02, 2010 · 59 posts

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  dphoadley ()  ( posted at 7:21AM Fri, 02 April 2010 


Dear BagginsBill,
I need texture advice on how to get the wine in this goblet to look like wine, and not like dirty dish water!  Any advice and help will be appreciated!
Yours truly,
David P. Hoadley

 

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!!

ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


  bagginsbill ()  ( posted at 8:55AM Fri, 02 April 2010 · edited on 8:56AM Fri, 02 April 2010

David,

We need to put the right shader on the glass and the wine.

Now I have a question first. What is the geometry of this wine glass? Some have a complete glass (inner and outer surface) and then a bullet-shaped plug for the liquid. Others have the plug but no inner glass. Which do you have? It affects how we do this.

Some don't have a plug, but instead just the top surface of the liquid - these are no good for wine.

Is there just one material zone for all the glass, or is the stem and/or base separate?

How about the bottle - you want to fix the bottle, too, I think.

If these are free props, please link me to them and I'll download them and make them perfect for you.



My free stuff - http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff 
VSS Home Page - http://sites.google.com/site/poserbagginsbill/vsshomepage
My Store - http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=374541

I use Poser Pro 2014 on Win 7, Win 8, and Mac OSX. My Poser Display Units are inches.


  bagginsbill ()  ( posted at 8:58AM Fri, 02 April 2010 

You might find this thread I wrote in interesting. It's not about wine, but the subject liquid in a glass.

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34646



My free stuff - http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff 
VSS Home Page - http://sites.google.com/site/poserbagginsbill/vsshomepage
My Store - http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=374541

I use Poser Pro 2014 on Win 7, Win 8, and Mac OSX. My Poser Display Units are inches.


  dphoadley ()  ( posted at 9:13AM Fri, 02 April 2010 


It's Gerald Day's Freebie adjustable Wind Cup prop.  All his props are very low-res.  I only see here a single one sided mesh, with an adjustable plug inside, with morphs for both tilt and amount.
dph

 

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!!

ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


  shedofjoy ()  ( posted at 9:24AM Fri, 02 April 2010 

the link to the milk glass isn't showing,has it been removed from runtimeDNA?

I post forum coments from my phone,woe is the pace of technology, now where is poser for android?


  WandW ()  ( posted at 9:26AM Fri, 02 April 2010 · edited on 9:31AM Fri, 02 April 2010

The link works for me...

EDIT; Unfortunately the link there to the glass prop seems to have vanished-I guess that is what you must have been talking about... :sad:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."

“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?

"The [R'osity Forum Search] "Default" label should actually say "Don't Find What I'm Looking For".


  bagginsbill ()  ( posted at 9:31AM Fri, 02 April 2010 

Yes the actual zip file has vanished.

I will search through my archives - hopefully I have it somewhere. I tend to make things and then delete them. I don't have any use for anything because I don't actually do art. Funny isn't it?



My free stuff - http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff 
VSS Home Page - http://sites.google.com/site/poserbagginsbill/vsshomepage
My Store - http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=374541

I use Poser Pro 2014 on Win 7, Win 8, and Mac OSX. My Poser Display Units are inches.


  WandW ()  ( posted at 10:09AM Fri, 02 April 2010 

I wouldn't say you don't do Art, BB, it's that for you creating the art is secondary to creating and sharing the medium.

The glass creator mentioned in the thread sounds interesting; was that the genesis of the procedural prop idea?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."

“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?

"The [R'osity Forum Search] "Default" label should actually say "Don't Find What I'm Looking For".


  dphoadley ()  ( posted at 10:20AM Fri, 02 April 2010 · edited on 10:34AM Fri, 02 April 2010


The wine glass with your beer shader, transparency set to 1.000.
When I first applaid the shader, ther was no transparency whatsoever.  I set it to 0.500 and it looked like wet sand, at 0.750 it looked like wet mud.  Not sure what to do with this prop.

Here they are:

Wine Bottle: http://www.sharecg.com/v/26093/3d-model/WINE-BOTTLE

Smart Wine Glass: http://fast3d.actionbabecentral.com/sglass/wglass.htm

 

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!!

ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


  Gareee ()  ( posted at 10:43AM Fri, 02 April 2010 

The problem with the glass you are trying to use, is that it just uses a single polygon for the inside and outside of the glass.

For a simple render done 10 years ago, that would be fine, but you can get proper refraction and reflection with a glass modelled properly.

Thats why BB was asking about the actual glass's geometry.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.


  bagginsbill ()  ( posted at 10:51AM Fri, 02 April 2010 · edited on 10:54AM Fri, 02 April 2010

Quote - I wouldn't say you don't do Art, BB, it's that for you creating the art is secondary to creating and sharing the medium.

The glass creator mentioned in the thread sounds interesting; was that the genesis of the procedural prop idea?


Yes - I've been looking for an hour and I just found the py file I used to make the glass. I haven't opened it yet, just found it.

David-

My shaders use Refraction, not transparency. Fluids are not transparent - they are refractive. It's completely different.

Get used to me, David. Ray tracing, ray tracing, ray tracing. I never do anything without ray tracing. If you use anything of mine, plan on enabling ray tracing.

There is a myth running around Poser land that simply enabling ray tracing will slow down your render. That is not true. It will only slow down if you have some shaders or lights that USE ray tracing. If you have nothing in your scene that needs ray tracing, then it will make zero difference time-wise or quality-wise to have ray tracing enabled.

If, on the other hand, you have it disabled all the time, then it is permanently off even if needed. As soon as you load anything interesting from me, you will come back and say "wah wah it's not working" and then I have to remind you again to enable ray tracing.

In case I've not been clear, understand this: There is no benefit to disabling ray tracing if you do not need it. There is clearly harm if you disable ray tracing and you *do* need it.

I have collectively reminded people to enable ray tracing so many times that it has consumed at least 60 hours of my time over the last 3 years. That's a lot of time.

So pardon me if I scream:

ENABLE RAY TRACING, ALWAYS. COSTS NOTHING WHEN YOU DO NOT NEED IT. WILL SAVE YOU FROM CONFUSION WHEN YOU DO NEED IT.

KEEP AT LEAST ONE BOUNCE, ALWAYS

ONLY DISABLE RT IF YOU ARE TRYING TO DO A QUICK LIGHTING TEST AND 
DO NOT NEED TO SEE REFLECTION OR REFRACTION 

WHEN LOOKING *THROUGH* OBJECTS VIA REFRACTION, YOU NEED A BOUNCE FOR EVERY SURFACE YOU WANT TO LOOK THROUGH. FOR A PROPERLY BUILT WINE GLASS, THIS WOULD BE 6 BOUNCES.

=====

Meanwhile, I'll download those props, but the plug doesn't have a surface (top). This means it will never look right with the camera above or below the surface level.

 I'm really surprised to see that geometry. That was not a case I listed - no surface. That's about as wrong as is possible to be wrong.



My free stuff - http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff 
VSS Home Page - http://sites.google.com/site/poserbagginsbill/vsshomepage
My Store - http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=374541

I use Poser Pro 2014 on Win 7, Win 8, and Mac OSX. My Poser Display Units are inches.


  Gareee ()  ( posted at 10:56AM Fri, 02 April 2010 

I suspect its a low poly prop made by someone who is learning along the way. The shape is right, but it was modelled without consideration of the rendering engine's capabilities.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.


  Winterclaw ()  ( posted at 1:08PM Fri, 02 April 2010 

I've got a question about the ballooning with smoothing on, you mentioned in the RDNA thread, is that how you describe the object's morph changing unexpectedly or when it gets those odd little black lines?

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: the brilliantest blog ever written by me

 

(PP12 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)


  IsaoShi ()  ( posted at 2:08PM Fri, 02 April 2010 · edited on 2:09PM Fri, 02 April 2010


Here's an example of ballooning caused by polygon smoothing. In the render, the front seam of the sword has split apart, and the decorated centre section is bulging out. I have only seen this on objects modelled with hard edges.

(Note: this image was made during initial product testing; the vendor later fixed the problem).

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)


  Winterclaw ()  ( posted at 2:13PM Fri, 02 April 2010 

Ah, now that is a bit weird.  If you didn't tell me otherwise, I would have said that the guy forgot to weld to two halves together in that area.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: the brilliantest blog ever written by me

 

(PP12 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)


  Latexluv ()  ( posted at 2:59PM Fri, 02 April 2010 · edited on 3:00PM Fri, 02 April 2010

BB, I have that original zip file for the milk and glass from that  RuntimeDNA thread.  I keep any shader you've done that I've run across in a folder on my external drive. Glass and Water are two of my favorite subjects since raytracing was introduced in P5.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 


  bagginsbill ()  ( posted at 3:12PM Fri, 02 April 2010 

Oh great, Latexluv. Can you post them in this thread? You'll have to add .txt to the end of a zipfile name but you should be able to post it here. I want to share it again. I don't have the shaders. I have newer ones, but I want to compare my new shaders with the old ones.



My free stuff - http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff 
VSS Home Page - http://sites.google.com/site/poserbagginsbill/vsshomepage
My Store - http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=374541

I use Poser Pro 2014 on Win 7, Win 8, and Mac OSX. My Poser Display Units are inches.


  bagginsbill ()  ( posted at 3:13PM Fri, 02 April 2010 · edited on 3:15PM Fri, 02 April 2010


I did a little experimenting with this freebie wine glass that is missing the top surface.

Want my opinion? Let's use a different glass, DPH.

I turned on smoothing to compensate for how low-poly it is. Look at the ballooning of the stem.



My free stuff - http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff 
VSS Home Page - http://sites.google.com/site/poserbagginsbill/vsshomepage
My Store - http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=374541

I use Poser Pro 2014 on Win 7, Win 8, and Mac OSX. My Poser Display Units are inches.


  Latexluv ()  ( posted at 3:16PM Fri, 02 April 2010 


Yes, let me get it and put it up. I'd LOVE to see any new shaders you've got for glass.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 


  bagginsbill ()  ( posted at 5:25PM Fri, 02 April 2010 

Have you guys ever heard or read thIs proverb (or variant): In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Poser is the kingdom of the blind, and I am the one-eyed man.

I can't believe I posted that glass of milk - it is a piece of ****.

 



My free stuff - http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff 
VSS Home Page - http://sites.google.com/site/poserbagginsbill/vsshomepage
My Store - http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=374541

I use Poser Pro 2014 on Win 7, Win 8, and Mac OSX. My Poser Display Units are inches.


  Latexluv ()  ( posted at 5:30PM Fri, 02 April 2010 

Ummm, well, the glass prop was great and I used the milk shader to make a few other liquid shaders. I did have some trouble with the actual glass shader. I await new and improved. :)

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 


  RobynsVeil ()  ( posted at 4:34AM Sat, 03 April 2010 

A bit OT, but as an aside: to quote Ms Peril on RDNA:
The shaders are just amazing - really quite spectacularly great! It's also so very generous of you to have contributed SO much to the community - I'm sure you could have made a small fortune by now by selling so many of the things you generously give away - your shaders are simply fantastic...

It only took her 8 posts to realise who the really bright lights are in Poser. What you consider of ordinary (Aussie 'ordinary', that is) quality, Bill, is light-years beyond what's currently considered acceptable and good in this elephant-trunk/tail/ear investigating community. Your original milk shader now falls below your standard because new concepts have given rise to a better model, but it's heck-a better than anything else out there.

Perhaps *this* is what makes this art-form so stimulating for those who allow it to be so: the best aspects of making Poser art truly unique are freely given to those who wish to learn by one of the brightest minds in the country. For what you have already given us we owe you a massive debt of gratitude, Bill...

BTW, does that new LandMass landscape generator add-on for TerraDome contain any of your work? If so, I'm buying it purely on principle! You richly deserve to start generating a bit of income for your hard work.

Mint 17LTS/Win7Pro - Blender 2.74 - PoserPro 2014(in)/Matmatic - GIMP - Lightworks12
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[we realise that people hold in contempt that which they do not understand] 


  Winterclaw ()  ( posted at 12:27PM Sat, 03 April 2010 

Compared to my best attempts at a glass shader turn out either very black or very invisible, bill's junk is a lot better than my experiments in learning.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: the brilliantest blog ever written by me

 

(PP12 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)


  dphoadley ()  ( posted at 1:24PM Sat, 03 April 2010 


These are my usual default render settings for basic scene posing.  Generally I use a higher setting for final render, albeit not always, time is also a factor in my render settings.  If a scene takes more than a hour to render, then that is generally 50 minutes too long.
dph

 

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!!

ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


  Gareee ()  ( posted at 2:24PM Sat, 03 April 2010 · edited on 2:25PM Sat, 03 April 2010

From looking at your settings (Actually really need to see the manual settings) Here's what I see missing off the top of my head:

Smooth polygons needs to be on
If displacement maps are used on anything, that also needs to be on.
Depth of field can really add realism.. you might want to experiment with that some.

(The example scene you posted would benefit quite well from depth of field!)

I always increase pixel samples on final renders as well.

Most of my renders are done in 5 minutes or less. If you are getting longer times in rendering, it might be time for a hardware of software upgrade. Which poser version are you using now?

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.


  mackis3D ()  ( posted at 3:32PM Sat, 03 April 2010 


THANK YOU for the milk!

Milk box by TrekkieGrrrl.





  Latexluv ()  ( posted at 4:18PM Mon, 05 April 2010 

I was going through my folder of glassware props this weekend, trying various glass shaders on them and a few of these props are drink glasses with ice in them. I am hoping that maybe we could include ice shaders in this discussion as well as whatever new glass shaders BB has up his sleeve.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 


  bagginsbill ()  ( posted at 7:39PM Mon, 05 April 2010 


I haven't forgotten about this. It's just slow going.

I tried a bunch of free glassware and I found all were unsuitable for use as a realistic prop in Poser for one reason or another. So I'm making my own from scratch.

So far I'm just working on the glass part, not the liquid plug. I'm refining the glass shader. It's tricky.

Poser doesn't implement refraction correctly. When you look through a glass to see what's behind it, the light ray bends four times: air to glass, glass to air, air to glass, and then glass to air again. The refraction of air to glass should bend in the opposite direction as glass to air. That's why thin glass doesn't really bend the line very much. But Poser does all four refractions as if they were air to glass. So if you put a proper IOR in there, it looks like there is no air in the glass. So I'm messing around with a compromise, using an IOR of 1.01. It looks good for the most part, although the stem and base aren't right, because they are NOT thin glass around air - they are solid glass. But I suppose that's not too important.

The other problem is what to do about shadows. The glass casts a solid shadow and it should not. If I disable shadows altogether, it looks fake. If I enable shadows it looks fake.

Only transparent objects allow light to leak through. I'm trying to figure out how to make the glass be transparent, but not actually show the transparency - I want it to show the refraction instead. I might have to build a double-walled glass, two-piece glass, where the outer part is transparent and casts a shadow, while the inner part is refractive and doesn't cast a shadow.

Very tricky.

Here's a render of what I've got so far.



My free stuff - http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff 
VSS Home Page - http://sites.google.com/site/poserbagginsbill/vsshomepage
My Store - http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=374541

I use Poser Pro 2014 on Win 7, Win 8, and Mac OSX. My Poser Display Units are inches.


  bagginsbill ()  ( posted at 7:44PM Mon, 05 April 2010 


Viewed from another angle.



My free stuff - http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff 
VSS Home Page - http://sites.google.com/site/poserbagginsbill/vsshomepage
My Store - http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=374541

I use Poser Pro 2014 on Win 7, Win 8, and Mac OSX. My Poser Display Units are inches.


  hborre ()  ( posted at 9:11PM Mon, 05 April 2010 

Looking at the render settings, you should switch to manual.  You have more options for better control.  That HDRI optimizated output shouldn't need to be checked on.  The only time I use that is to create HDRI light probes using BB light probe setup.  For your purpose it is not necessary.


  Latexluv ()  ( posted at 12:12AM Tue, 06 April 2010 

BB, yes, I noticed over the weekend while rendering quite a few available free glassware props that something seemed not quite right with IOR. In some cases your Orb shader Thin glass didn't quite refract enough and the regular glass Orb Shader refracted too much. A simple fresnel connected into the Alternate Diffuse did the same thing, sometimes looking okay for a prop that wouldn't be too close up in a render and sometimes looking totally wrong. And then there were the props that included ice cubes inside the drink.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 


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